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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 3:26 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Johnson wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I think it's just a case of Ferrari not being able to make the SS work, just like Merc has trouble making the US work. Monaco we will see the Hyper Softs? So I don't think we really know which car that tyre will suit best. Stay tuned.


I am not sure why everybody is saying Ferrari couldn't make the SS work. Both drivers made big errors into T1 on the Q3 SS runs and ruined there runs. We don't really know how they would have done on the SS if they went again.

Exactly, and we all know Lewis can extract that little bit of extra that no one else can.

Apart from Bottas who basically matches him.

Mercedes was the fastest car today, the desire Hamilton fans have to downplay his car to make him look better doesn’t change that.


Who's doing that?

The post above me.

I would say that around Barcelona specifically, Lewis is not that special in qualifying. Nico basically matched him over four years (two poles each, and Nico took his poles with slightly bigger margins).


Last edited by KingVoid on Sat May 12, 2018 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 3:27 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Was very impressed with Alonso today. Definitely owned Vandoorne and so very nearly put that McLaren in 7th. Difficult to say exactly where the McLaren is in the pecking order due to the large gap between the two drivers but the upgrades certainly appear to have helped


I doubt. They're in the same position on the grid as before. They were hoping to match Red Bulls but were beaten by both Haas cars. Ouch!

I'm not so sure they are. This is the first time into Q3 all season and he was less than a tenth off 7th spot. Beat both Renaults, to boot. And one Haas...


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 3:53 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
I disagree, I think there are 4 other drivers who could give Hamilton a run for his money in qualifying.

He's one of the best no doubt and I don't think anyone could convincingly beat him over the course of a season but I don't believe he can extract more one lap pace from the car than everyone else.


KingVoid wrote:

Mercedes was the fastest car today, the desire Hamilton fans have to downplay his car to make him look better doesn’t change that.


I might be a bit biased but I remember countless times over the years when the commentators have been stunned over how much faster he is than the second place when he get's pole. I'ts not like it's always the case and he's not as consistent as some others but when he has a good day, I don't think anyone can beat him. That's my opinion.

As for over the course of a season, I don't think anyone of the current drivers could beat him at all, let alone convincingly.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 3:53 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Was very impressed with Alonso today. Definitely owned Vandoorne and so very nearly put that McLaren in 7th. Difficult to say exactly where the McLaren is in the pecking order due to the large gap between the two drivers but the upgrades certainly appear to have helped


I doubt. They're in the same position on the grid as before. They were hoping to match Red Bulls but were beaten by both Haas cars. Ouch!

I'm not so sure they are. This is the first time into Q3 all season and he was less than a tenth off 7th spot. Beat both Renaults, to boot. And one Haas...


Yeah, bizarre post.

First time in Q3. Gap to Red Bull down from 1.5-2s to 0.9ths, practically halved it with one upgrade and considering Red Bull's own 0.5s upgrade you can see the size of the upgrade McLaren brought. Turned around a usual 7 tenth disadvantage to Renault in qualifying.

Best part of a second gain with this upgrade so much more like it and this is the car that should've been at Melbourne. Still needs work to further close that gap to Red Bull but it couldn't have realistically gone much better once McLaren admitted they missed that deadline.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:08 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Johnson wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Difficult to tell with the tyres being so strange but don't forget Mercedes looked a lot stronger here in testing and the grid being Merc-Merc-Ferrari-Ferrari-Red Bull-Red Bull would indicate that it's pretty reflective of car performance.

I imagine it will be similar to last year where Mercedes will be better at some circuits and Ferrari at others. I'll be surprised if Ferrari don't blow Mercedes away in Monaco and vice versa in Silverstone for example.


I think it's just a case of Ferrari not being able to make the SS work, just like Merc has trouble making the US work. Monaco we will see the Hyper Softs? So I don't think we really know which car that tyre will suit best. Stay tuned.


I am not sure why everybody is saying Ferrari couldn't make the SS work. Both drivers made big errors into T1 on the Q3 SS runs and ruined there runs. We don't really know how they would have done on the SS if they went again.

Exactly, and we all know Lewis can extract that little bit of extra that no one else can.

I disagree, I think there are 4 other drivers who could give Hamilton a run for his money in qualifying.

He's one of the best no doubt and I don't think anyone could convincingly beat him over the course of a season but I don't believe he can extract more one lap pace from the car than everyone else.

Really I would say there are occasions when he can.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Was very impressed with Alonso today. Definitely owned Vandoorne and so very nearly put that McLaren in 7th. Difficult to say exactly where the McLaren is in the pecking order due to the large gap between the two drivers but the upgrades certainly appear to have helped

I'm confused Alonso beat Vandoorne like he normally does.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:19 pm 
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Mclaren look better than normal but they are no better than Haas or Renault. Before this upgrade they were little more behind so they definitely needed this. Alonso did a good lap I think in Q3. But Q2 he was P10 and since Hulk has been better in qualifying than Sainz. May be Alonso would not have made it into Q3 ?

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:06 pm 
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McLaren's improvement from Gonesurfin on AS...

Gaps between the fastest McLaren (Alonso in all 5) and Red Bull and the pole sitter.



Race..........Fastest RB............Pole sitter



AUS ..............+1.813 ...........+2.528

BAHR .............+1.814..........+2.254

CHINA ...........+1.436...........+2.137

BAKU.............+2.108............+2.521

SPAIN.............+0.905............+1.548

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Last edited by Lotus49 on Sat May 12, 2018 5:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:12 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
McLaren's improvement from Gonesurfin on AS...



Alonso Faster RB Pole



AUS +1.813 +2.528

BAHR +1.814 +2.254

CHINA +1.436 +2.137

BAKU +2.108 +2.521

SPAIN +0.905 +1.548


Can you add some context to this?
I seriously have no idea what it's trying to demonstrate.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:12 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Mclaren look better than normal but they are no better than Haas or Renault. Before this upgrade they were little more behind so they definitely needed this. Alonso did a good lap I think in Q3. But Q2 he was P10 and since Hulk has been better in qualifying than Sainz. May be Alonso would not have made it into Q3 ?


Alonso was 3ths up on his first run in Q2 but either bailed,lifted for the yellow (RoGro's) or made a mistake in S3. They looked faster than Renault but not by much but they've been 7 or 8 tenths behind so far over one lap so the improvement is pretty sizeable. Closed up on Haas but Hass still a bit quicker I think yeah.

Race pace will be interesting to see if the one lap improvement carries over. If it does they'll be clearly 4th best as they've been around 4th at a couple of races before the upgrade already.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:14 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
McLaren's improvement from Gonesurfin on AS...



Alonso Faster RB Pole



AUS +1.813 +2.528

BAHR +1.814 +2.254

CHINA +1.436 +2.137

BAKU +2.108 +2.521

SPAIN +0.905 +1.548


Can you add some context to this?
I seriously have no idea what it's trying to demonstrate.


Sorry, That's the gap between the fastest McLaren (Alonso) and the fastest Red Bull in qualifying so far this year and the gap to pole.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Was very impressed with Alonso today. Definitely owned Vandoorne and so very nearly put that McLaren in 7th. Difficult to say exactly where the McLaren is in the pecking order due to the large gap between the two drivers but the upgrades certainly appear to have helped

I'm confused Alonso beat Vandoorne like he normally does.

what are you confused about?


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:20 pm 
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Tidied it up a bit now so it makes more sense.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:16 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
McLaren's improvement from Gonesurfin on AS...

Gaps between the fastest McLaren (Alonso in all 5) and Red Bull and the pole sitter.



Race..........Fastest RB............Pole sitter
AUS ..............+1.813 ...........+2.528
BAHR .............+1.814..........+2.254
CHINA ...........+1.436...........+2.137
BAKU.............+2.108............+2.521
SPAIN.............+0.905............+1.548


Nice data, that is pretty conclusive until shown otherwise in future races. It seems like they found 0.5-0.7 with this upgrade, actually probably even more because RB had extensive upgrades too. So its a relative 0.5-0.7 gain on RB and pole sitters and probably a real gain of a couple of tenths more than that compared to there old car because of RB's significant upgrades themselves.

The gap is still huge, but its a good start. I could see them unlocking even more from the new package in the post race test too.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:47 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
McLaren's improvement from Gonesurfin on AS...

Gaps between the fastest McLaren (Alonso in all 5) and Red Bull and the pole sitter.



Race..........Fastest RB............Pole sitter
AUS ..............+1.813 ...........+2.528
BAHR .............+1.814..........+2.254
CHINA ...........+1.436...........+2.137
BAKU.............+2.108............+2.521
SPAIN.............+0.905............+1.548


Nice data, that is pretty conclusive until shown otherwise in future races. It seems like they found 0.5-0.7 with this upgrade, actually probably even more because RB had extensive upgrades too. So its a relative 0.5-0.7 gain on RB and pole sitters and probably a real gain of a couple of tenths more than that compared to there old car because of RB's significant upgrades themselves.

The gap is still huge, but its a good start. I could see them unlocking even more from the new package in the post race test too.


Aye it's a shame they couldn't get this package out in time for Melbourne as it would've given them a better chance of closing the gap with a Spain and then future upgrade rather than now being effectively 3 months behind but they say they've got parts coming for Canada and Monaco and then Silverstone so hopefully that can get them closer for the last part of the season but it'll be tough with no-one standing still.

Having the test this week will help a lot as well yeah.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:53 pm 
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Ocon wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
I disagree, I think there are 4 other drivers who could give Hamilton a run for his money in qualifying.

He's one of the best no doubt and I don't think anyone could convincingly beat him over the course of a season but I don't believe he can extract more one lap pace from the car than everyone else.


KingVoid wrote:

Mercedes was the fastest car today, the desire Hamilton fans have to downplay his car to make him look better doesn’t change that.


I might be a bit biased but I remember countless times over the years when the commentators have been stunned over how much faster he is than the second place when he get's pole. I'ts not like it's always the case and he's not as consistent as some others but when he has a good day, I don't think anyone can beat him. That's my opinion.

As for over the course of a season, I don't think anyone of the current drivers could beat him at all, let alone convincingly.

Hamilton has something extra on a number of circuits, but Barcelona isn’t one of them.

Today he was 0.040s faster than Bottas, so it’s rather likely that it was simply the car.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 8:15 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton has something extra on a number of circuits, but Barcelona isn’t one of them.

Today he was 0.040s faster than Bottas, so it’s rather likely that it was simply the car.

:thumbup:

Indeed. If he'd been 7 tenths ahead of everyone else again, I'd say it would probably be Hamilton being special. Less than a tenth ahead of Bottas? Not so much.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:06 pm 
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Could this new oil regulations have hurt Ferrari?

Mercedes gained 1 second Q2 to Q3. Both Ferrari and Mercedes gained 1 second Q2 to Q3 in Spain last yea too.

This year, Ferrari gained 0.5, Mercedes 1.0.

Numerous things could be at play, such as tyres but I hadn’t seen any one mention the oil rule changes this weekend. That being you can’t top oil up through qualifying.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:16 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Could this new oil regulations have hurt Ferrari?

Mercedes gained 1 second Q2 to Q3. Both Ferrari and Mercedes gained 1 second Q2 to Q3 in Spain last yea too.

This year, Ferrari gained 0.5, Mercedes 1.0.

Numerous things could be at play, such as tyres but I hadn’t seen any one mention the oil rule changes this weekend. That being you can’t top oil up through qualifying.


I had a feeling it might hurt the customers of Merc/Ferrari more as they're likely to be using the highest quali mode as early as Q1 so not topping it up might sting them more.

But tbh I forgot all about it and I think that's partly due to nothing weird standing out result wise. Force India maybe but that's about it. Haas were fine. Williams and Sauber looked no different to me at least.

Can't say I noticed the effect on the big boys tbh.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:16 pm 
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Have you seen this new lap comparison video format? This is really cool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m12TeRcw8-A


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:18 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Have you seen this new lap comparison video format? This is really cool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m12TeRcw8-A


Yeah they're great and there was some last year as well. Good ones in Spain and Spa.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:30 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Have you seen this new lap comparison video format? This is really cool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m12TeRcw8-A


Yeah they're great and there was some last year as well. Good ones in Spain and Spa.

Somehow I never saw them until now.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Really like those comparison videos :thumbup:

Is it to simplistic to say that if Ferrari got the SS tyre working they'd have been on pole? Vettel was 0.132 behind on a slower tyre.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 10:02 pm 
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Think there is a lot to be said about the conditions as well. If the clouds had cleared after FP3 and the track heated up accordingly, I'm sure the Ferrari would have been on pole. Don't know what to make of this tyre kerfuffle. The Ferrari fans are crying, but very little coming out across the net, just how much influential were the tyre changes, if at all?


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 10:18 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Really like those comparison videos :thumbup:

Is it to simplistic to say that if Ferrari got the SS tyre working they'd have been on pole? Vettel was 0.132 behind on a slower tyre.


Its really hard to decipher. Its certainly not that simple, my gut feeling is that if Mercedes went soft for the 2nd Q3 run then they would be further in front. Everybody that switched to softs for the 2nd run improved I believe. However, naturally the drivers always improve on the 2nd run (banker is always slower) so its really hard to work out what was the better tyre to be on there.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 10:22 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Could this new oil regulations have hurt Ferrari?

Mercedes gained 1 second Q2 to Q3. Both Ferrari and Mercedes gained 1 second Q2 to Q3 in Spain last yea too.

This year, Ferrari gained 0.5, Mercedes 1.0.

Numerous things could be at play, such as tyres but I hadn’t seen any one mention the oil rule changes this weekend. That being you can’t top oil up through qualifying.


I had a feeling it might hurt the customers of Merc/Ferrari more as they're likely to be using the highest quali mode as early as Q1 so not topping it up might sting them more.

But tbh I forgot all about it and I think that's partly due to nothing weird standing out result wise. Force India maybe but that's about it. Haas were fine. Williams and Sauber looked no different to me at least.

Can't say I noticed the effect on the big boys tbh.


Yes I agree, very hard to read anything into the oil situation given the tyre situation. Both Haas’ were slower in Q3 than Q2 though. By 0.060 and 0.135 respectively which coupled with Ferrari quite small gain Q2-Q3 could mean something. What? I have no idea.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 10:36 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Really like those comparison videos :thumbup:

Is it to simplistic to say that if Ferrari got the SS tyre working they'd have been on pole? Vettel was 0.132 behind on a slower tyre.

Based on Q2 I think that's about the issue. Ferrari were quicker than Merc when both were on the soft tires in Q2. In Q3 both Raikkonen and Vettel ran wide at the first corner on the SS tires and then they went back to softs.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 11:51 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Could this new oil regulations have hurt Ferrari?

Mercedes gained 1 second Q2 to Q3. Both Ferrari and Mercedes gained 1 second Q2 to Q3 in Spain last yea too.

This year, Ferrari gained 0.5, Mercedes 1.0.

Numerous things could be at play, such as tyres but I hadn’t seen any one mention the oil rule changes this weekend. That being you can’t top oil up through qualifying.


I had a feeling it might hurt the customers of Merc/Ferrari more as they're likely to be using the highest quali mode as early as Q1 so not topping it up might sting them more.

But tbh I forgot all about it and I think that's partly due to nothing weird standing out result wise. Force India maybe but that's about it. Haas were fine. Williams and Sauber looked no different to me at least.

Can't say I noticed the effect on the big boys tbh.


Yes I agree, very hard to read anything into the oil situation given the tyre situation. Both Haas’ were slower in Q3 than Q2 though. By 0.060 and 0.135 respectively which coupled with Ferrari quite small gain Q2-Q3 could mean something. What? I have no idea.


Good spot about the Haas. Might be tyre related as well though if they did Q2 and Q3 on different compounds but with the tyre situation I haven't a clue what the better one was for Haas.

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 12:25 am 
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JN23 wrote:
Really like those comparison videos :thumbup:

Is it to simplistic to say that if Ferrari got the SS tyre working they'd have been on pole? Vettel was 0.132 behind on a slower tyre.


Not that simplistic and I think it’s correct. If anyone read Vettel and Raikkonen’s comments after the session you could tell they both felt better on the softs. The ss is the faster tire though and Merc proved it. But not all teams were able to unlock its pace. Maybe the ferraris needed to do an extra lap to warm them up. So it’s not far fetched to believe the Ferrari would have gotten pole if it was able to switch the ss on.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 1:51 am 
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I’m not so sure about Mercedes proving the SS was the faster tyre at all. Mercedes ran the SS and got pole that does not mean the Mercedes wouldn’t have gone quicker on the S. Everybody else that switched to it, improved. But then so did Mercedes who stayed on the SS so that could be just normal banker to second run improvements for everybody. Its inconclusive which was the best tyre. Either way there was very little between them.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 3:09 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
McLaren's improvement from Gonesurfin on AS...

Gaps between the fastest McLaren (Alonso in all 5) and Red Bull and the pole sitter.



Race..........Fastest RB............Pole sitter



AUS ..............+1.813 ...........+2.528

BAHR .............+1.814..........+2.254

CHINA ...........+1.436...........+2.137

BAKU.............+2.108............+2.521

SPAIN.............+0.905............+1.548


Mclaren is horrible in low downforce track. Williams were also faster than them in Baku but here they are the slowest team. It will be interesting to the see the performance throughout the year.

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 5:12 am 
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Johnson wrote:
I’m not so sure about Mercedes proving the SS was the faster tyre at all. Mercedes ran the SS and got pole that does not mean the Mercedes wouldn’t have gone quicker on the S. Everybody else that switched to it, improved. But then so did Mercedes who stayed on the SS so that could be just normal banker to second run improvements for everybody. Its inconclusive which was the best tyre. Either way there was very little between them.


It's not inconclusive at all to me. Mercedes ran the super softs because they knew they could get more performance out of it by running it halfway in the latter stages of Q2. Ferrari didn't run softs in the latter stages of Q3 because they did not like the way the car felt on the supersofts. But the super soft is faster tire because, well it is softer. Softer compound = grippier compound. Just because most teams could not get it to work doesn't cancel out that fact. Unless you want to make believe that the compound is not really softer and that Pirelli is misrepresenting it.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:55 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Have you seen this new lap comparison video format? This is really cool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m12TeRcw8-A

They are great.

Shows Hamilton takes more speed through the corners.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:56 am 
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JN23 wrote:
Really like those comparison videos :thumbup:

Is it to simplistic to say that if Ferrari got the SS tyre working they'd have been on pole? Vettel was 0.132 behind on a slower tyre.

The softer tyre just seemed to work much better.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 7:54 am 
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Lots of heavy rain overnight meaning we have a green track.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 8:54 am 
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Wet GP3 race. Hoping for at least a wet track at the start of F1.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:34 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Most other weather forecasts are saying it will be dry and sunny.


GP3 Race wet, F2 race on a wet track, safe to say its not dry and sunny today.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 10:32 am 
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Clarky wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Have you seen this new lap comparison video format? This is really cool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m12TeRcw8-A

They are great.

Shows Hamilton takes more speed through the corners.


Looks to me like set-up has something to do with it. Bottas gaining a lot on the straights.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 10:59 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I’m not so sure about Mercedes proving the SS was the faster tyre at all. Mercedes ran the SS and got pole that does not mean the Mercedes wouldn’t have gone quicker on the S. Everybody else that switched to it, improved. But then so did Mercedes who stayed on the SS so that could be just normal banker to second run improvements for everybody. Its inconclusive which was the best tyre. Either way there was very little between them.


It's not inconclusive at all to me. Mercedes ran the super softs because they knew they could get more performance out of it by running it halfway in the latter stages of Q2. Ferrari didn't run softs in the latter stages of Q3 because they did not like the way the car felt on the supersofts. But the super soft is faster tire because, well it is softer. Softer compound = grippier compound. Just because most teams could not get it to work doesn't cancel out that fact. Unless you want to make believe that the compound is not really softer and that Pirelli is misrepresenting it.


No. As Brundle said in the commentary, over 1 lap the SS was overheating by the end of it. To counter this Ferrari did a really slow out lap for the first q3 run, didn’t get them warm enough and both drivers messed up turn 1.


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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 11:04 am 
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Gav25182 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Have you seen this new lap comparison video format? This is really cool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m12TeRcw8-A

They are great.

Shows Hamilton takes more speed through the corners.


Looks to me like set-up has something to do with it. Bottas gaining a lot on the straights.


He wasn’t really, he gained 0.050 over the straight, that is about 1 kph


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