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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Kvyat was given fair chance, he had 4 years in F1 and was inferior to Ricciardo, Verstappen and Sainz.

Baloney.

He was doing as well as Ricciardo when he was axed. You've gone ahead and bought into the media hype as to why he was axed instead of realizing that the only reason he was "demoted" was because Verstappen was being wined and dined by others and Red bull reacted rather than risk losing their young gun driver.

His dive down the inside of Vettel is STILL one of the best moves of the entire season and Vettel was wrong to criticize him for making the move because he himself would have gone for it. Hell, Ricciardo has divebombed far worse than than and he received praise for doing so. His ramming into Vettel in Russia was a joke because the initial contact was in fact his fault but incidental, and Vettel was able to continue on, YET…
once in the next corner Vettel Lifted in an area of track where everyone is accelerating pretty hard. If you look you will notice everyone maintains a steady momentum yet Vettels car lurches rearward indicating he lifted and he left Kvyat with nowhere to go.

The demotion seemed to have demotivated him but he's a damn good driver.

Hartley on the other hand looks almost as good as Badoer in 2009, although this weekend he looked much improved.

Kvyat should have been kept because of one dive bomb that payed off and triggered multiple incidents to the leaders that allowed him a lucky second place finish, all this disguising the fact that he was getting demolished by Ricciardo in terms of speed, the accident with Vettel just speeded up the inevitable for Kvyat.

Divebomb My hind quarters!
That was a hellaciously BEAUTIFULLY FLAWLESS MOVE!!!
Now, some of Ricciardo's divebombs have been absurdly STUPID and Ill-Advised and he was rather fortunate on several occasions that the defending driver saw what was about to happen and moved out of the way rather than suffer a DNF!!!

I mean his 19 car length lockup inspired a thread called "Ricciardo is a Late braking God" even though it was one of the poorest judgement calls in his career.
And I'm a fan of Ricciardo and realize what a terrific driver he is, but I'd never offer blind praise to a driver just because I fancy them. I'm not a blind fanboy.
And for the record, Kvyat didn't trigger anything in China outside catch Vettel not paying attention and THAT'S what caused the issue. To place ANY of it on Kvyat is simply wrong and Senna would curse anyone's family for generations for even contemplating blaming Kvyat.

You describe a dive bomb as the driver in front having to get out of the way which is what Vettel had to do with Kvyat yet somehow that is not a dive bomb?

Vettel's reaction of getting out of the way like I said triggered a series of collisions that damaged 4 cars that would have beat Kvyat and this would be a basis of keeping Kvyat on that one second place result whilst in the rest of the races he was getting soundly beat by Ricciardo.


I don't think this is a divebomb. A divebomb is when the overtaking car is coming from too far behind and too hot and requires the car in front to get out of the way or else they'll collide. Normally associated with smoking tyres and missing the corner...

The driver in front giving some space should not be mistaken for getting out of the way, it does not constitute a divebomb for me. And to clarify, this is not for this example, this is a general comment about what a divebomb is


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Shia Luck wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Shia Luck wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:
What is the pecking order of young Red Bull drivers at the moment, they can’t have many lined up as Hartley landed the Toro Rosso driver in the first place.

They have no one in the pipeline that is ready for F1.


This is one of the deciding factors imho as to whether Hartley stays.

Another is that the RB group do not hire from outside unless they absolutely have to as in Hartley's case. There's a big difference between a WEC champion who was once a RB driver, and a rival Mercedes driver. I can't see RB using anyone else's young drivers.

What's more, they already have a proven driver to replace Hartley. Carlos Sainz. Obviously, I don't know the terms of the loan deal, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a get out clause. That would make him a huge bargaining chip.

Perhaps Hartley's future actually depends on how Renault and RB resolve the deadline issue for whether RB will use Renault or Honda engines in 2019?

Have fun :)

Sainz only comes back to drive for Red Bull and not STR.


Really? Do you have a source for that perhaps?

If that's the actual deal it would be a very strange one for RB to make. They already had/have Sainz under a contract where they can put him in either team. Why would they renegotiate this mid contract to disadvantage themselves?

Have fun :)

First paragraph he only comes back to Red Bull if Ricciardo leaves.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/expo ... z-1034862/

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:13 pm 
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Shia Luck wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Shia Luck wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:
What is the pecking order of young Red Bull drivers at the moment, they can’t have many lined up as Hartley landed the Toro Rosso driver in the first place.

They have no one in the pipeline that is ready for F1.


This is one of the deciding factors imho as to whether Hartley stays.

Another is that the RB group do not hire from outside unless they absolutely have to as in Hartley's case. There's a big difference between a WEC champion who was once a RB driver, and a rival Mercedes driver. I can't see RB using anyone else's young drivers.

What's more, they already have a proven driver to replace Hartley. Carlos Sainz. Obviously, I don't know the terms of the loan deal, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a get out clause. That would make him a huge bargaining chip.

Perhaps Hartley's future actually depends on how Renault and RB resolve the deadline issue for whether RB will use Renault or Honda engines in 2019?

Have fun :)

Sainz only comes back to drive for Red Bull and not STR.


Really? Do you have a source for that perhaps?

If that's the actual deal it would be a very strange one for RB to make. They already had/have Sainz under a contract where they can put him in either team. Why would they renegotiate this mid contract to disadvantage themselves?

Have fun :)

Helping to smooth the deal for Renault to supply McLaren instead of STR so STR can get the Honda is not disadvantaging Red Bull, this is giving them time to directly compare the two units and they are hoping Honda is better and the main team can improve with no works team working against them.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:14 pm 
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typaH4okc wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Sainz out qualified Kvyat 8-4 at an average of 0.12s, that's not what I call Kvyat matching Sainz, but the Sainz being over rated bit might be true with him presently getting beat by the Hulk.


Kvyat was 6-8 against Sainz last year at an average of .06, no significant difference.

Did you google that which will not include any problems that a driver may have had, as I discounted the 2 qualifying sessions that you have included that may well have been the case for Sainz?

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
typaH4okc wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Sainz out qualified Kvyat 8-4 at an average of 0.12s, that's not what I call Kvyat matching Sainz, but the Sainz being over rated bit might be true with him presently getting beat by the Hulk.


Kvyat was 6-8 against Sainz last year at an average of .06, no significant difference.

Did you google that which will not include any problems that a driver may have had, as I discounted the 2 qualifying sessions that you have included that may well have been the case for Sainz?

I've just checked Bahrain qualifying, Kvyat had 2 runs in Q1, Sainz just the one so he must have had a problem with the car hence why I didn't include it, google doesn't tell you things like that, the other qualifying session that you included is probably much the same.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
typaH4okc wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Sainz out qualified Kvyat 8-4 at an average of 0.12s, that's not what I call Kvyat matching Sainz, but the Sainz being over rated bit might be true with him presently getting beat by the Hulk.


Kvyat was 6-8 against Sainz last year at an average of .06, no significant difference.

Did you google that which will not include any problems that a driver may have had, as I discounted the 2 qualifying sessions that you have included that may well have been the case for Sainz?


Did you do the same for Kvyat?


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:32 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
pokerman wrote:
typaH4okc wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Sainz out qualified Kvyat 8-4 at an average of 0.12s, that's not what I call Kvyat matching Sainz, but the Sainz being over rated bit might be true with him presently getting beat by the Hulk.


Kvyat was 6-8 against Sainz last year at an average of .06, no significant difference.

Did you google that which will not include any problems that a driver may have had, as I discounted the 2 qualifying sessions that you have included that may well have been the case for Sainz?

I've just checked Bahrain qualifying, Kvyat had 2 runs in Q1, Sainz just the one so he must have had a problem with the car hence why I didn't include it, google doesn't tell you things like that, the other qualifying session that you included is probably much the same.


Looked it up on official site.

Sainz beat Kvyat convincingly at first after Kvyat was just demoted. Their last 20 races together they are 10-10. No real need to nit-pick on specific issues each might have had during qualies, over the longer period these issues spread out evenly across both drivers.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:38 pm 
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typaH4okc wrote:
pokerman wrote:
pokerman wrote:
typaH4okc wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Sainz out qualified Kvyat 8-4 at an average of 0.12s, that's not what I call Kvyat matching Sainz, but the Sainz being over rated bit might be true with him presently getting beat by the Hulk.


Kvyat was 6-8 against Sainz last year at an average of .06, no significant difference.

Did you google that which will not include any problems that a driver may have had, as I discounted the 2 qualifying sessions that you have included that may well have been the case for Sainz?

I've just checked Bahrain qualifying, Kvyat had 2 runs in Q1, Sainz just the one so he must have had a problem with the car hence why I didn't include it, google doesn't tell you things like that, the other qualifying session that you included is probably much the same.


Looked it up on official site.

Which just shows numbers but will not show you that Sainz was unable to make a second run in qualifying unlike his teammate Kvyat, this does not appear in my data so that means it wasn't Sainz's fault.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Which just shows numbers but will not show you that Sainz was unable to make a second run in qualifying unlike his teammate Kvyat, this does not appear in my data so that means it wasn't Sainz's fault.

I can't find the page right now, but who writes the articles for F1 fanatic, now racefans had done a qualifying performance description. I think it was called team mate battles or something like that. It was very detailed and to me, a pretty fair comparison. You are correct about Bahrain, but the average gap was simply tiny (only Ericsson and Wehrlein closer) and although Kvyat had had a dreadful year, the writer made a point that he had basically matched Sainz in qualifying.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:12 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Which just shows numbers but will not show you that Sainz was unable to make a second run in qualifying unlike his teammate Kvyat, this does not appear in my data so that means it wasn't Sainz's fault.

I can't find the page right now, but who writes the articles for F1 fanatic, now racefans had done a qualifying performance description. I think it was called team mate battles or something like that. It was very detailed and to me, a pretty fair comparison. You are correct about Bahrain, but the average gap was simply tiny (only Ericsson and Wehrlein closer) and although Kvyat had had a dreadful year, the writer made a point that he had basically matched Sainz in qualifying.

As far as I'm aware they include everything like wet qualifying and I'm not sure they distinguish mechanical problems, I have it over the 2 years at 17-9 to Sainz with an overall average of 0.13s, so Kvyat actually matched Sainz but they got rid of him anyway not according to me or Red Bull.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:19 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
As far as I'm aware they include everything like wet qualifying and I'm not sure they distinguish mechanical problems, I have it over the 2 years at 17-9 to Sainz with an overall average of 0.13s, so Kvyat actually matched Sainz but they got rid of him anyway not according to me or Red Bull.

The big difference between Sainz and Kvyat wasn't in qualifying anyway. Kvyat qualified ahead a few times, but when points were on offer it was always Sainz who came out ahead.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:19 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
moby wrote:
Hartley should have stuck to Fly Fishing, but Wehrlein would not be much of an upgrade. Massa is hanging around in the pits, so is Di Resta.

Edit, or maybe a couple of races from Button just as a yardstick. He seems to work well with Honda.

I disagree. Pascal is definitely a strong driver. People don't seem to like him but he's quick.


I thoroughly disagree. And I think Wehrlein's reputation is based upon one test where the rumour had it they didn't like his attitude. I think he looks fast and very composed. No disrespect, but if your alternate suggestions are Massa, DiResta and Button, I might recommend you head back to the old fly fishing yourself.

I also think that Kvyat would have done a far better job at TR, and been a good yardstick, or would been a better choice at Williams. Maybe he'll get a spot at Haas next year. They could probably do with at least 1 new driver.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
First paragraph he only comes back to Red Bull if Ricciardo leaves.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/expo ... z-1034862/


With the greatest respect to both yourself and motorsport.com that paragraph is missing an 'only'. They have used the most obvious situation of how Sainz could return as an introduction, It is not a categorical claim that this is the only situation under which Sainz could be recalled.

dompclarke wrote:
Helping to smooth the deal for Renault to supply McLaren instead of STR so STR can get the Honda is not disadvantaging Red Bull, this is giving them time to directly compare the two units and they are hoping Honda is better and the main team can improve with no works team working against them.


?? When Sauber dropped out of negotiations with Honda STR swooped in for the reasons you say. Clearly Honda could supply 2 teams by then. There was no deal to sweeten. STR simply changed PU suppliers.

PU constructors can supply 4 teams so if Renault had capacity they could supply McL as well as STR. If not, they could supply McL instead of STR, the contract was up.

Therefore, there was no deal needing sweetening that involved Sainz and Renault and McL.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Letting Sainz go mid season massively disadvantaged them so I would suggest there are numerous forces at play.


Well, this is exactly my point. IMHO RB have positioned Sainz as a bargaining chip so they can have as long as they like to decide which engine they run in 2019.

Have fun :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:22 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As far as I'm aware they include everything like wet qualifying and I'm not sure they distinguish mechanical problems, I have it over the 2 years at 17-9 to Sainz with an overall average of 0.13s, so Kvyat actually matched Sainz but they got rid of him anyway not according to me or Red Bull.

The big difference between Sainz and Kvyat wasn't in qualifying anyway. Kvyat qualified ahead a few times, but when points were on offer it was always Sainz who came out ahead.

Yes indeed but qualifying also showed that Sainz had more ultimate speed.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:23 pm 
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Dash33 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
moby wrote:
Hartley should have stuck to Fly Fishing, but Wehrlein would not be much of an upgrade. Massa is hanging around in the pits, so is Di Resta.

Edit, or maybe a couple of races from Button just as a yardstick. He seems to work well with Honda.

I disagree. Pascal is definitely a strong driver. People don't seem to like him but he's quick.


I thoroughly disagree. And I think Wehrlein's reputation is based upon one test where the rumour had it they didn't like his attitude. I think he looks fast and very composed. No disrespect, but if your alternate suggestions are Massa, DiResta and Button, I might recommend you head back to the old fly fishing yourself.

I also think that Kvyat would have done a far better job at TR, and been a good yardstick, or would been a better choice at Williams. Maybe he'll get a spot at Haas next year. They could probably do with at least 1 new driver.

As far as F1 is concerned I think Kvyat is done.

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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:28 pm 
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Shia Luck wrote:
pokerman wrote:
First paragraph he only comes back to Red Bull if Ricciardo leaves.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/expo ... z-1034862/


With the greatest respect to both yourself and motorsport.com that paragraph is missing an 'only'. They have used the most obvious situation of how Sainz could return as an introduction, It is not a categorical claim that this is the only situation under which Sainz could be recalled.

dompclarke wrote:
Helping to smooth the deal for Renault to supply McLaren instead of STR so STR can get the Honda is not disadvantaging Red Bull, this is giving them time to directly compare the two units and they are hoping Honda is better and the main team can improve with no works team working against them.


?? When Sauber dropped out of negotiations with Honda STR swooped in for the reasons you say. Clearly Honda could supply 2 teams by then. There was no deal to sweeten. STR simply changed PU suppliers.

PU constructors can supply 4 teams so if Renault had capacity they could supply McL as well as STR. If not, they could supply McL instead of STR, the contract was up.

Therefore, there was no deal needing sweetening that involved Sainz and Renault and McL.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Letting Sainz go mid season massively disadvantaged them so I would suggest there are numerous forces at play.


Well, this is exactly my point. IMHO RB have positioned Sainz as a bargaining chip so they can have as long as they like to decide which engine they run in 2019.

Have fun :)

From Sainz's own mouth he only comes back for one of the Red Bull seats, I happened to find that article that backs up things that I already heard, the article itself wouldn't be my initial source it's merely what I could find at the time.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:07 am 
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Shia Luck wrote:
pokerman wrote:
First paragraph he only comes back to Red Bull if Ricciardo leaves.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/expo ... z-1034862/


With the greatest respect to both yourself and motorsport.com that paragraph is missing an 'only'. They have used the most obvious situation of how Sainz could return as an introduction, It is not a categorical claim that this is the only situation under which Sainz could be recalled.

dompclarke wrote:
Helping to smooth the deal for Renault to supply McLaren instead of STR so STR can get the Honda is not disadvantaging Red Bull, this is giving them time to directly compare the two units and they are hoping Honda is better and the main team can improve with no works team working against them.


?? When Sauber dropped out of negotiations with Honda STR swooped in for the reasons you say. Clearly Honda could supply 2 teams by then. There was no deal to sweeten. STR simply changed PU suppliers.

PU constructors can supply 4 teams so if Renault had capacity they could supply McL as well as STR. If not, they could supply McL instead of STR, the contract was up.

Therefore, there was no deal needing sweetening that involved Sainz and Renault and McL.

mikeyg123 wrote:

Letting Sainz go mid season massively disadvantaged them so I would suggest there are numerous forces at play.


Well, this is exactly my point. IMHO RB have positioned Sainz as a bargaining chip so they can have as long as they like to decide which engine they run in 2019.

Have fun :)

Renault, knowing the positions of other teams and wanting Sainz, could easily have said no to ending the STR contract. With the deal being so late being finalised (and possibly anyway) they may not have been ready for a fourth team and could not have been forced to.
Renaults position on wanting a driver could have led to the Sainz being needed for anything to happen!


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:54 am 
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pokerman wrote:
From Sainz's own mouth he only comes back for one of the Red Bull seats, I happened to find that article that backs up things that I already heard, the article itself wouldn't be my initial source it's merely what I could find at the time.


So you accept it is not a reliable account? Good.

Also, drivers say lots of things. The contracts is what matters and so far no one has come up with a decent reason as to why RB lent Sainz to Renault to their own driver disadvantage.

dompclarke wrote:
Renault, knowing the positions of other teams and wanting Sainz, could easily have said no to ending the STR contract. With the deal being so late being finalised (and possibly anyway) they may not have been ready for a fourth team and could not have been forced to.
Renaults position on wanting a driver could have led to the Sainz being needed for anything to happen!


?? The STR contact would end at the end of the year. Obviously until STR and Honda got together there was a contract for the following year but the penalties for cancelling that months in advance (while still in the previous season) would not b substantial given Honda just saved 30-40M Euros by not having to pay Alonso's salary anymore.

Renault have no power in this negotiation you are suggesting.

Have fun :)

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:26 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
He was doing as well as Ricciardo when he was axed. You've gone ahead and bought into the media hype as to why he was axed instead of realizing that the only reason he was "demoted" was because Verstappen was being wined and dined by others and Red bull reacted rather than risk losing their young gun driver.
He was not. I'm with you that he wasn't fired for his performance, but it gave them a convenient excuse - and through the first four races of 2016:

Australia: Kvyat out-qualified by Ricciardo by over a second. No race comparison to be made.
Bahrain: Kvyat out-qualified by Ricciardo by over a second again, and finishes a lap down relative to his teammate.
China: Kvyat manages to get within 4 tenths of his teammate this time, and lucks into a podium when Ricciardo suffers a puncture while leading.
Russia: Kvyat again qualifies about 4 tenths off his teammate, and makes a mistake on lap one that ruins his race.

I don't know in what world all of that is supposed to equal him doing as well as Ricciardo. I think you've gone ahead and bought the hype of his podium, ignoring the fact that it was gifted to him by complete luck. And then after being fired he lost the plot completely and spent the rest of the year looking like a completely third-rate driver alongside Sainz.


I've just thought of something interesting. Kvyat had 21 points by the 4th race when he was kicked out. Verstappen this year had 18 points by the 4th race. Should he have been dumped? :lol: I honestly can't say his season looked better by Baku than Kvyat's in early 2016. Despite it being lucky, his performance in China was a highlight. I do think that Kvyat's form won't have dropped anything like as much as it did if they just kept him until the end of the season. Given the situation in Spain, I think he likely could have managed a podium at least. While at the same time, Verstappen could have done a much better job as Toro Rosso. And I also think that Kvyat wouldn't have slumped so much if he had gone back to Toro Rosso at the start of the season and having time to prepare with the team rather than part way through.

But I do think the mistake that was made was sending Kvyat to Red Bull too soon. I think that ruined his performance. Although it may not be that fun, if he had stayed at Toro Rosso from 2014 the whole time, I think he'll have just kept getting better and be ready about now to step up. The way Red Bull dealt with him just was wrong IMO. The main thing Kvyat should have done was cope better when getting dumped by Red Bull. But I don't think he'd be out the sport now if they had just waited until the end of the season.

Just so I stay on topic, my view on Hartly is that we need to give him more time. Wehrlein may have some experience, but I don't think he'd be much better really. Pace wise, he didn't look better than Ericsson really. Just wait and see how Hartly performs until the end of the year at least.

Still a big difference in performance level with Verstappen out qualifying Ricciardo whilst Kvyat was getting thrashed by Ricciardo, Kvyat simply wasn't quick enough, some seem to think that Kvyat got dropped simply because he crashed into Vettel and then Vettel complained about him it seems?


I don't think it was because of that only no. But there is something about Kvyat that is starting to make me think Sainz is very over rated. When Kvyat was back at Toro Rosso, he basically matched Sainz over 1 lap pace in qualifying, especially in their 2nd year together. Averaged out, I think they were the 2nd closest pair of team mates after Sauber. It was indeed clear that Ricciardo dominated Kvyat in qualifying. And given that pretty recently, Kvyat was as good as Sainz in this area, I think it shows that Sainz isn't that great here. Then following that, Ricciardo who dominated Kvyat is now actually clearly not quite as fast as Verstappen over one lap on the whole. I think Verstappen's pace has improved a lot. But I think Sainz's one lap pace is actually pretty poor (unless kvyat's wasn't) and so is his consistency. I know I've gone a bit off topic here, and although I think Sainz is reasonable overall, I think some of these statistics with Kvyat show that he isn't very good in some areas.

I just don't like that Red Bull, Renault and Toro Rosso all have kicked out and brought in drivers (toro Rosso bringing in totally new drivers). I just don't think it is right. If you are unsure about your drivers from the previous season, don't have them next season and you will probably be better off as the replacement driver will have more time to get used to the team and help the progress.

Sainz out qualified Kvyat 8-4 at an average of 0.12s, that's not what I call Kvyat matching Sainz, but the Sainz being over rated bit might be true with him presently getting beat by the Hulk.


I think Hulk is underrated by most people.
After he won LeMans he said he could push on the tyres lap after lap. So the reason why Perez was better at the time was he had better tyre management skills on the old cheese tyres.
Now we have tyres that can be pushed lap after lap, Hulk is finally showing how good he actually is.

A bit more on topic.
Back when Sainz and Max were paired, Red Bull had no idea how good they were as they were both rookies.
The real brilliance of the Kvyat demotion was that instantly they could compare Max vs Ric, and Sainz vs Kvyat. They already saw how Ricciardo had stack up against Vettel, so in one quick move they had a pretty good benchmark to see who could be the guy they get behind to mount a championship campaign.
So while this was a harsh move by Red Bull at the time, it was a great one.
Right now they have the same issue with Gasly.
They are seeing Hulk beat Sainz, and might be thinking maybe he is not good enough to replace Ricciardo should he not sign for the team for 2019 onwards.

So, if they bring in a known quick driver like Pascal, then they can measure how good Gasly is, and if Gasly smashes him, he might be the one at Red Bull, with Sainz’s contract with Red Bull going the same way as Kvyat....

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:28 am 
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Shia Luck wrote:
pokerman wrote:
From Sainz's own mouth he only comes back for one of the Red Bull seats, I happened to find that article that backs up things that I already heard, the article itself wouldn't be my initial source it's merely what I could find at the time.


So you accept it is not a reliable account? Good.

Also, drivers say lots of things. The contracts is what matters and so far no one has come up with a decent reason as to why RB lent Sainz to Renault to their own driver disadvantage.

dompclarke wrote:
Renault, knowing the positions of other teams and wanting Sainz, could easily have said no to ending the STR contract. With the deal being so late being finalised (and possibly anyway) they may not have been ready for a fourth team and could not have been forced to.
Renaults position on wanting a driver could have led to the Sainz being needed for anything to happen!


?? The STR contact would end at the end of the year. Obviously until STR and Honda got together there was a contract for the following year but the penalties for cancelling that months in advance (while still in the previous season) would not b substantial given Honda just saved 30-40M Euros by not having to pay Alonso's salary anymore.

Renault have no power in this negotiation you are suggesting.

Have fun :)

If Renault had no power then they would not have Sainz!


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:15 pm 
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Shia Luck wrote:
pokerman wrote:
From Sainz's own mouth he only comes back for one of the Red Bull seats, I happened to find that article that backs up things that I already heard, the article itself wouldn't be my initial source it's merely what I could find at the time.


So you accept it is not a reliable account? Good.

Also, drivers say lots of things. The contracts is what matters and so far no one has come up with a decent reason as to why RB lent Sainz to Renault to their own driver disadvantage.

dompclarke wrote:
Renault, knowing the positions of other teams and wanting Sainz, could easily have said no to ending the STR contract. With the deal being so late being finalised (and possibly anyway) they may not have been ready for a fourth team and could not have been forced to.
Renaults position on wanting a driver could have led to the Sainz being needed for anything to happen!


?? The STR contact would end at the end of the year. Obviously until STR and Honda got together there was a contract for the following year but the penalties for cancelling that months in advance (while still in the previous season) would not b substantial given Honda just saved 30-40M Euros by not having to pay Alonso's salary anymore.

Renault have no power in this negotiation you are suggesting.

Have fun :)

I'm saying it's reasonably well known but no matter how many different sources I show you will say they are unreliable whilst you who have no idea what the actually score is but come up with what you think is true.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Randine wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I've just thought of something interesting. Kvyat had 21 points by the 4th race when he was kicked out. Verstappen this year had 18 points by the 4th race. Should he have been dumped? :lol: I honestly can't say his season looked better by Baku than Kvyat's in early 2016. Despite it being lucky, his performance in China was a highlight. I do think that Kvyat's form won't have dropped anything like as much as it did if they just kept him until the end of the season. Given the situation in Spain, I think he likely could have managed a podium at least. While at the same time, Verstappen could have done a much better job as Toro Rosso. And I also think that Kvyat wouldn't have slumped so much if he had gone back to Toro Rosso at the start of the season and having time to prepare with the team rather than part way through.

But I do think the mistake that was made was sending Kvyat to Red Bull too soon. I think that ruined his performance. Although it may not be that fun, if he had stayed at Toro Rosso from 2014 the whole time, I think he'll have just kept getting better and be ready about now to step up. The way Red Bull dealt with him just was wrong IMO. The main thing Kvyat should have done was cope better when getting dumped by Red Bull. But I don't think he'd be out the sport now if they had just waited until the end of the season.

Just so I stay on topic, my view on Hartly is that we need to give him more time. Wehrlein may have some experience, but I don't think he'd be much better really. Pace wise, he didn't look better than Ericsson really. Just wait and see how Hartly performs until the end of the year at least.

Still a big difference in performance level with Verstappen out qualifying Ricciardo whilst Kvyat was getting thrashed by Ricciardo, Kvyat simply wasn't quick enough, some seem to think that Kvyat got dropped simply because he crashed into Vettel and then Vettel complained about him it seems?


I don't think it was because of that only no. But there is something about Kvyat that is starting to make me think Sainz is very over rated. When Kvyat was back at Toro Rosso, he basically matched Sainz over 1 lap pace in qualifying, especially in their 2nd year together. Averaged out, I think they were the 2nd closest pair of team mates after Sauber. It was indeed clear that Ricciardo dominated Kvyat in qualifying. And given that pretty recently, Kvyat was as good as Sainz in this area, I think it shows that Sainz isn't that great here. Then following that, Ricciardo who dominated Kvyat is now actually clearly not quite as fast as Verstappen over one lap on the whole. I think Verstappen's pace has improved a lot. But I think Sainz's one lap pace is actually pretty poor (unless kvyat's wasn't) and so is his consistency. I know I've gone a bit off topic here, and although I think Sainz is reasonable overall, I think some of these statistics with Kvyat show that he isn't very good in some areas.

I just don't like that Red Bull, Renault and Toro Rosso all have kicked out and brought in drivers (toro Rosso bringing in totally new drivers). I just don't think it is right. If you are unsure about your drivers from the previous season, don't have them next season and you will probably be better off as the replacement driver will have more time to get used to the team and help the progress.

Sainz out qualified Kvyat 8-4 at an average of 0.12s, that's not what I call Kvyat matching Sainz, but the Sainz being over rated bit might be true with him presently getting beat by the Hulk.


I think Hulk is underrated by most people.
After he won LeMans he said he could push on the tyres lap after lap. So the reason why Perez was better at the time was he had better tyre management skills on the old cheese tyres.
Now we have tyres that can be pushed lap after lap, Hulk is finally showing how good he actually is.

A bit more on topic.
Back when Sainz and Max were paired, Red Bull had no idea how good they were as they were both rookies.
The real brilliance of the Kvyat demotion was that instantly they could compare Max vs Ric, and Sainz vs Kvyat. They already saw how Ricciardo had stack up against Vettel, so in one quick move they had a pretty good benchmark to see who could be the guy they get behind to mount a championship campaign.
So while this was a harsh move by Red Bull at the time, it was a great one.
Right now they have the same issue with Gasly.
They are seeing Hulk beat Sainz, and might be thinking maybe he is not good enough to replace Ricciardo should he not sign for the team for 2019 onwards.

So, if they bring in a known quick driver like Pascal, then they can measure how good Gasly is, and if Gasly smashes him, he might be the one at Red Bull, with Sainz’s contract with Red Bull going the same way as Kvyat....

That all makes sense. :)

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:18 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Shia Luck wrote:
pokerman wrote:
From Sainz's own mouth he only comes back for one of the Red Bull seats, I happened to find that article that backs up things that I already heard, the article itself wouldn't be my initial source it's merely what I could find at the time.


So you accept it is not a reliable account? Good.

Also, drivers say lots of things. The contracts is what matters and so far no one has come up with a decent reason as to why RB lent Sainz to Renault to their own driver disadvantage.

dompclarke wrote:
Renault, knowing the positions of other teams and wanting Sainz, could easily have said no to ending the STR contract. With the deal being so late being finalised (and possibly anyway) they may not have been ready for a fourth team and could not have been forced to.
Renaults position on wanting a driver could have led to the Sainz being needed for anything to happen!


?? The STR contact would end at the end of the year. Obviously until STR and Honda got together there was a contract for the following year but the penalties for cancelling that months in advance (while still in the previous season) would not b substantial given Honda just saved 30-40M Euros by not having to pay Alonso's salary anymore.

Renault have no power in this negotiation you are suggesting.

Have fun :)

If Renault had no power then they would not have Sainz!

Indeed

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:26 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Shia Luck wrote:
pokerman wrote:
From Sainz's own mouth he only comes back for one of the Red Bull seats, I happened to find that article that backs up things that I already heard, the article itself wouldn't be my initial source it's merely what I could find at the time.


So you accept it is not a reliable account? Good.

Also, drivers say lots of things. The contracts is what matters and so far no one has come up with a decent reason as to why RB lent Sainz to Renault to their own driver disadvantage.

dompclarke wrote:
Renault, knowing the positions of other teams and wanting Sainz, could easily have said no to ending the STR contract. With the deal being so late being finalised (and possibly anyway) they may not have been ready for a fourth team and could not have been forced to.
Renaults position on wanting a driver could have led to the Sainz being needed for anything to happen!


?? The STR contact would end at the end of the year. Obviously until STR and Honda got together there was a contract for the following year but the penalties for cancelling that months in advance (while still in the previous season) would not b substantial given Honda just saved 30-40M Euros by not having to pay Alonso's salary anymore.

Renault have no power in this negotiation you are suggesting.

Have fun :)

If Renault had no power then they would not have Sainz!


I'm sorry but you are confusing two completely separate things. 1: How Renault got Sainz. 2: The balance of power now that Renault have Sainz and want to keep him.

Renault have given RB two deadlines about deciding on whose engine they will use and they have both passed, yet Renault is still saying RB can have a supply if they want.

pokerman wrote:
I'm saying it's reasonably well known but no matter how many different sources I show you will say they are unreliable whilst you who have no idea what the actually score is but come up with what you think is true.


That's a little harsh, no? It's quite a leap to say that I will say anything and everything is unreliable when all you have shown is a comment in an introduction to an article which I did not call unreliable. I informed you it didn't say what you thought or wanted it to say. It needed an 'only' if it was going to back up your claim.

Have fun :)

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:04 pm 
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Shia Luck wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Shia Luck wrote:
pokerman wrote:
From Sainz's own mouth he only comes back for one of the Red Bull seats, I happened to find that article that backs up things that I already heard, the article itself wouldn't be my initial source it's merely what I could find at the time.


So you accept it is not a reliable account? Good.

Also, drivers say lots of things. The contracts is what matters and so far no one has come up with a decent reason as to why RB lent Sainz to Renault to their own driver disadvantage.

dompclarke wrote:
Renault, knowing the positions of other teams and wanting Sainz, could easily have said no to ending the STR contract. With the deal being so late being finalised (and possibly anyway) they may not have been ready for a fourth team and could not have been forced to.
Renaults position on wanting a driver could have led to the Sainz being needed for anything to happen!


?? The STR contact would end at the end of the year. Obviously until STR and Honda got together there was a contract for the following year but the penalties for cancelling that months in advance (while still in the previous season) would not b substantial given Honda just saved 30-40M Euros by not having to pay Alonso's salary anymore.

Renault have no power in this negotiation you are suggesting.

Have fun :)

If Renault had no power then they would not have Sainz!


I'm sorry but you are confusing two completely separate things. 1: How Renault got Sainz. 2: The balance of power now that Renault have Sainz and want to keep him.

Renault have given RB two deadlines about deciding on whose engine they will use and they have both passed, yet Renault is still saying RB can have a supply if they want.

pokerman wrote:
I'm saying it's reasonably well known but no matter how many different sources I show you will say they are unreliable whilst you who have no idea what the actually score is but come up with what you think is true.


That's a little harsh, no? It's quite a leap to say that I will say anything and everything is unreliable when all you have shown is a comment in an introduction to an article which I did not call unreliable. I informed you it didn't say what you thought or wanted it to say. It needed an 'only' if it was going to back up your claim.

Have fun :)

I'm confusing nothing
My entire discussion has been on Renault getting Sainz while the whole engine swapping episode was happening, I've commented nothing on this year and this has no bearing on what I have been saying.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:11 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Shia Luck wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Shia Luck wrote:
pokerman wrote:
From Sainz's own mouth he only comes back for one of the Red Bull seats, I happened to find that article that backs up things that I already heard, the article itself wouldn't be my initial source it's merely what I could find at the time.


So you accept it is not a reliable account? Good.

Also, drivers say lots of things. The contracts is what matters and so far no one has come up with a decent reason as to why RB lent Sainz to Renault to their own driver disadvantage.

dompclarke wrote:
Renault, knowing the positions of other teams and wanting Sainz, could easily have said no to ending the STR contract. With the deal being so late being finalised (and possibly anyway) they may not have been ready for a fourth team and could not have been forced to.
Renaults position on wanting a driver could have led to the Sainz being needed for anything to happen!


?? The STR contact would end at the end of the year. Obviously until STR and Honda got together there was a contract for the following year but the penalties for cancelling that months in advance (while still in the previous season) would not b substantial given Honda just saved 30-40M Euros by not having to pay Alonso's salary anymore.

Renault have no power in this negotiation you are suggesting.

Have fun :)

If Renault had no power then they would not have Sainz!


I'm sorry but you are confusing two completely separate things. 1: How Renault got Sainz. 2: The balance of power now that Renault have Sainz and want to keep him.

Renault have given RB two deadlines about deciding on whose engine they will use and they have both passed, yet Renault is still saying RB can have a supply if they want.

pokerman wrote:
I'm saying it's reasonably well known but no matter how many different sources I show you will say they are unreliable whilst you who have no idea what the actually score is but come up with what you think is true.


That's a little harsh, no? It's quite a leap to say that I will say anything and everything is unreliable when all you have shown is a comment in an introduction to an article which I did not call unreliable. I informed you it didn't say what you thought or wanted it to say. It needed an 'only' if it was going to back up your claim.

Have fun :)

I'm confusing nothing
My entire discussion has been on Renault getting Sainz while the whole engine swapping episode was happening, I've commented nothing on this year and this has no bearing on what I have been saying.


Ahh, well that makes things clearer. No idea why you are arguing with me then. My posts have been about whether engine supply is a factor in Sainz staying at Renault or returning to STR which would impact Hartley's drive (which is the topic).

Have fun :)

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:20 am 
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Shia Luck wrote:

Ahh, well that makes things clearer. No idea why you are arguing with me then. My posts have been about whether engine supply is a factor in Sainz staying at Renault or returning to STR which would impact Hartley's drive (which is the topic).

Have fun :)

Re read the posts, it's clear throughout I was talking about Sainz going to Renault initially and the engine swaps. Also your posts seem to swap between the the initial Sainz swap and now depending who you respond to, whether this was intended or not that's how they read.

You were also the one getting argumentative, I was just posting my views on the subject not having a go at yours


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:54 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Shia Luck wrote:

Ahh, well that makes things clearer. No idea why you are arguing with me then. My posts have been about whether engine supply is a factor in Sainz staying at Renault or returning to STR which would impact Hartley's drive (which is the topic).

Have fun :)

Re read the posts, it's clear throughout I was talking about Sainz going to Renault initially and the engine swaps. Also your posts seem to swap between the the initial Sainz swap and now depending who you respond to, whether this was intended or not that's how they read.

You were also the one getting argumentative, I was just posting my views on the subject not having a go at yours


I initially misunderstood that you didn't have an overall point because you were responding to my hypothesis concerning Renault, RB and Sainz. You cleared that up in your last post.

I did re read the posts which was why I was happy to understand your previous post. I am not sure why you are telling me to re read them again. IF you want a separate discussion on how Sainz ended up at Renault, go start a topic. This one is about whether Hartley stays at STR or not.

Argumentative? Ummm, it's a discussion forum! (I am charitably not reading the pejorative meaning into your use of that word.) I am curious how I have been argumentative in your opinion. Please quote me so I can understand.

Have fun :)

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:28 am 
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Shia Luck wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Shia Luck wrote:
pokerman wrote:
From Sainz's own mouth he only comes back for one of the Red Bull seats, I happened to find that article that backs up things that I already heard, the article itself wouldn't be my initial source it's merely what I could find at the time.


So you accept it is not a reliable account? Good.

Also, drivers say lots of things. The contracts is what matters and so far no one has come up with a decent reason as to why RB lent Sainz to Renault to their own driver disadvantage.

dompclarke wrote:
Renault, knowing the positions of other teams and wanting Sainz, could easily have said no to ending the STR contract. With the deal being so late being finalised (and possibly anyway) they may not have been ready for a fourth team and could not have been forced to.
Renaults position on wanting a driver could have led to the Sainz being needed for anything to happen!


?? The STR contact would end at the end of the year. Obviously until STR and Honda got together there was a contract for the following year but the penalties for cancelling that months in advance (while still in the previous season) would not b substantial given Honda just saved 30-40M Euros by not having to pay Alonso's salary anymore.

Renault have no power in this negotiation you are suggesting.

Have fun :)

If Renault had no power then they would not have Sainz!


I'm sorry but you are confusing two completely separate things. 1: How Renault got Sainz. 2: The balance of power now that Renault have Sainz and want to keep him.

Renault have given RB two deadlines about deciding on whose engine they will use and they have both passed, yet Renault is still saying RB can have a supply if they want.

pokerman wrote:
I'm saying it's reasonably well known but no matter how many different sources I show you will say they are unreliable whilst you who have no idea what the actually score is but come up with what you think is true.


That's a little harsh, no? It's quite a leap to say that I will say anything and everything is unreliable when all you have shown is a comment in an introduction to an article which I did not call unreliable. I informed you it didn't say what you thought or wanted it to say. It needed an 'only' if it was going to back up your claim.

Have fun :)

It said that Sainz would be recalled to Red Bull if Ricciardo was to leave and said nothing about him replacing Hartley at STR which you was proposing, Sainz will never return to STR at the expense of a Renault contract.

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 2:06 pm 
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What is this thread about again?


I have not read about Pascal o BH since the second or third post!!


Change the title then!!!


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 4:04 pm 
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Also, was this just something someone made up or is this actually a possibility?


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 8:04 pm 
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I think people were reaching because Hartley isn’t doing that well. I watched him in practice when he stepped up in Austin last year and he didn’t look great at all. I saw a lot of mistakes and zero consistency through the stadium section.

STR got lucky with Gasly’s performance in Bahrain but they still have an uncompetitive car so if they’re going to pay money to get rid of Hartley and put someone else in there, what’s the point?


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:58 pm 
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Bentrovato wrote:
I think people were reaching because Hartley isn’t doing that well. I watched him in practice when he stepped up in Austin last year and he didn’t look great at all. I saw a lot of mistakes and zero consistency through the stadium section.

STR got lucky with Gasly’s performance in Bahrain but they still have an uncompetitive car so if they’re going to pay money to get rid of Hartley and put someone else in there, what’s the point?


I'm not on the "Hartley is fairy cakes" bandwagon but what's to say a different driver might not be able to get results like Gasly's Bahrain run regularly? The midfield is tight enough that driver quality could easily account for a car finishing say 8th rather than 16th.


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 10:27 pm 
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Just throwing this out there, but if Hartley is still seen as underperforming when the summer break rolls around, how about Red Bull dig into their phonebook and bring a certain soon-to-be-crowned FE Champion back?

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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 2:49 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but if Hartley is still seen as underperforming when the summer break rolls around, how about Red Bull dig into their phonebook and bring a certain soon-to-be-crowned FE Champion back?

I think they should. Vergne wasn't too far off of Ricciardo, so he should be somewhere around Sainz level - almost certainly better than Hartley, and a lot more experienced than Gasly.

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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:14 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but if Hartley is still seen as underperforming when the summer break rolls around, how about Red Bull dig into their phonebook and bring a certain soon-to-be-crowned FE Champion back?

I think they should. Vergne wasn't too far off of Ricciardo, so he should be somewhere around Sainz level - almost certainly better than Hartley, and a lot more experienced than Gasly.

Vergne was a terrible qualifier I would be more inclined to go for their other FE Champion Buemi.

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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:25 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but if Hartley is still seen as underperforming when the summer break rolls around, how about Red Bull dig into their phonebook and bring a certain soon-to-be-crowned FE Champion back?

I think they should. Vergne wasn't too far off of Ricciardo, so he should be somewhere around Sainz level - almost certainly better than Hartley, and a lot more experienced than Gasly.

Vergne was a terrible qualifier I would be more inclined to go for their other FE Champion Buemi.


Vergne's bad qualifying makes him finishing ahead of Ricciardo in races so often all the more impressive. He's probably one of the best drivers F1's lost over the past decade.

He's sorted out his quali issues now as well.

He fell out with Red Bull though so no chance.


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:01 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but if Hartley is still seen as underperforming when the summer break rolls around, how about Red Bull dig into their phonebook and bring a certain soon-to-be-crowned FE Champion back?

I think they should. Vergne wasn't too far off of Ricciardo, so he should be somewhere around Sainz level - almost certainly better than Hartley, and a lot more experienced than Gasly.

Vergne was a terrible qualifier I would be more inclined to go for their other FE Champion Buemi.


Vergne's bad qualifying makes him finishing ahead of Ricciardo in races so often all the more impressive. He's probably one of the best drivers F1's lost over the past decade.

He's sorted out his quali issues now as well.

He fell out with Red Bull though so no chance.

Vergne was a good qualifier pre-F1 as well, I'm not sure what you achieve in lower powered cars transfers to F1 unless you are believing the drivers are of equal quality?

Regarding Ricciardo this is the era of Pirelli cheese tyres were Vergne's poor qualifying often gave him the advantage of more fresh tyres for the race than Ricciardo.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 2:56 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but if Hartley is still seen as underperforming when the summer break rolls around, how about Red Bull dig into their phonebook and bring a certain soon-to-be-crowned FE Champion back?

I think they should. Vergne wasn't too far off of Ricciardo, so he should be somewhere around Sainz level - almost certainly better than Hartley, and a lot more experienced than Gasly.

Vergne was a terrible qualifier I would be more inclined to go for their other FE Champion Buemi.


Vergne's bad qualifying makes him finishing ahead of Ricciardo in races so often all the more impressive. He's probably one of the best drivers F1's lost over the past decade.

He's sorted out his quali issues now as well.

He fell out with Red Bull though so no chance.

Vergne was a good qualifier pre-F1 as well, I'm not sure what you achieve in lower powered cars transfers to F1 unless you are believing the drivers are of equal quality?

Regarding Ricciardo this is the era of Pirelli cheese tyres were Vergne's poor qualifying often gave him the advantage of more fresh tyres for the race than Ricciardo.



The stats simply don't back that up. At the time they were driving for STR neither were qualifying in the top 10 regularly. 11 times for Ricciardo and 4 for Vergne.

In the 11 races Ricciardo qualified in the top 10 and had to start on quali tyres Vergne beat him twice.

Ricciardo beat Vergne more often when he qualified in the top 10 and was disadvantaged by starting on used tyres than he did when they both qualified outside the top 10.


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Fukuzumi is also a candidate for the seat reportedly. He currently doesn't have the super license points necessary though.
I don't see Wherlein in a Toro Rosso. He is a Mercedes guy, I don't see Redbull ever agreeing to that.
Hartley is just out of his depth. It has been obvious to me since the first day he jumped in the car, so I agree he must go asap.


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