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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:26 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I think they should. Vergne wasn't too far off of Ricciardo, so he should be somewhere around Sainz level - almost certainly better than Hartley, and a lot more experienced than Gasly.

Vergne was a terrible qualifier I would be more inclined to go for their other FE Champion Buemi.


Vergne's bad qualifying makes him finishing ahead of Ricciardo in races so often all the more impressive. He's probably one of the best drivers F1's lost over the past decade.

He's sorted out his quali issues now as well.

He fell out with Red Bull though so no chance.

Vergne was a good qualifier pre-F1 as well, I'm not sure what you achieve in lower powered cars transfers to F1 unless you are believing the drivers are of equal quality?

Regarding Ricciardo this is the era of Pirelli cheese tyres were Vergne's poor qualifying often gave him the advantage of more fresh tyres for the race than Ricciardo.



The stats simply don't back that up. At the time they were driving for STR neither were qualifying in the top 10 regularly. 11 times for Ricciardo and 4 for Vergne.

In the 11 races Ricciardo qualified in the top 10 and had to start on quali tyres Vergne beat him twice.

Ricciardo beat Vergne more often when he qualified in the top 10 and was disadvantaged by starting on used tyres than he did when they both qualified outside the top 10.

I think the nuance was more so how many times Vergne didn't even qualify into Q2 whilst Ricciardo did but only started a few places further up the grid, I just remember it being said about Vergne having the advantage of fresher tyres for the race, when Ricciardo made Q3 I guess the starting advantage was just too much for Vergne to overcome?

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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 11:27 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Fukuzumi is also a candidate for the seat reportedly. He currently doesn't have the super license points necessary though.
I don't see Wherlein in a Toro Rosso. He is a Mercedes guy, I don't see Redbull ever agreeing to that.
Hartley is just out of his depth. It has been obvious to me since the first day he jumped in the car, so I agree he must go asap.

Fukuzumi has little chance of getting a F1 super license for next year especially.

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:11 am 
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[quote="pokerman"
I think the nuance was more so how many times Vergne didn't even qualify into Q2 whilst Ricciardo did but only started a few places further up the grid, I just remember it being said about Vergne having the advantage of fresher tyres for the race, when Ricciardo made Q3 I guess the starting advantage was just too much for Vergne to overcome?[/quote]

Why would Vergne have fresher tyres if he didn't make Q2? I guess you mean he would have one extra set of new tyres. Hardly a huge advantage. I know it was said. That doesn't mean the theory stands up to any scrutiny.

But even if it did Vergne was out in Q3 6 more times than Ricciardo in their 39 races as team mates. It's still not exactly wildly significant.

IMO Vergne was clearly as good in races as Ricciardo until Red Bull announced Ricciardo for the main team. Vergne did appear to fall off after that.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:00 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Vergne was a terrible qualifier I would be more inclined to go for their other FE Champion Buemi.


Vergne's bad qualifying makes him finishing ahead of Ricciardo in races so often all the more impressive. He's probably one of the best drivers F1's lost over the past decade.

He's sorted out his quali issues now as well.

He fell out with Red Bull though so no chance.

Vergne was a good qualifier pre-F1 as well, I'm not sure what you achieve in lower powered cars transfers to F1 unless you are believing the drivers are of equal quality?

Regarding Ricciardo this is the era of Pirelli cheese tyres were Vergne's poor qualifying often gave him the advantage of more fresh tyres for the race than Ricciardo.



The stats simply don't back that up. At the time they were driving for STR neither were qualifying in the top 10 regularly. 11 times for Ricciardo and 4 for Vergne.

In the 11 races Ricciardo qualified in the top 10 and had to start on quali tyres Vergne beat him twice.

Ricciardo beat Vergne more often when he qualified in the top 10 and was disadvantaged by starting on used tyres than he did when they both qualified outside the top 10.

I think the nuance was more so how many times Vergne didn't even qualify into Q2 whilst Ricciardo did but only started a few places further up the grid, I just remember it being said about Vergne having the advantage of fresher tyres for the race, when Ricciardo made Q3 I guess the starting advantage was just too much for Vergne to overcome?

That was exclusively by Ricciardo fans looking for excuses. I pointed out several times that if the extra lap(s) in quali were so much of a hindrance that you were better off qualifying worse, the teams would've opted to just not make any further runs.
I usually didn't get so much as a reply.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:11 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
[/b]

The stats simply don't back that up. At the time they were driving for STR neither were qualifying in the top 10 regularly. 11 times for Ricciardo and 4 for Vergne.

In the 11 races Ricciardo qualified in the top 10 and had to start on quali tyres Vergne beat him twice.

Ricciardo beat Vergne more often when he qualified in the top 10 and was disadvantaged by starting on used tyres than he did when they both qualified outside the top 10.

I think the nuance was more so how many times Vergne didn't even qualify into Q2 whilst Ricciardo did but only started a few places further up the grid, I just remember it being said about Vergne having the advantage of fresher tyres for the race, when Ricciardo made Q3 I guess the starting advantage was just too much for Vergne to overcome?

That was exclusively by Ricciardo fans looking for excuses. I pointed out several times that if the extra lap(s) in quali were so much of a hindrance that you were better off qualifying worse, the teams would've opted to just not make any further runs.
I usually didn't get so much as a reply.

I think that drivers would normally look to qualify as high as they can and like as been said when Ricciardo did make it to Q3 he normally beat Vergne, some drivers did opt not to qualify in Q3 because of the cheese tyres.

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2016: 4th Place

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 4:56 pm 
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Vergne not capitalising on an advantage doesn't mean there isn't one. We saw it with Alonso and Button as well.

Starting one row apart but one of them either gets...

A free choice of tyres which depending on what circuit and conditions that weekend can be a massive advantage
Fresher tyres usually by 3 laps which when it comes to your first stop those extra 3 laps in clean air can be all the difference in a tight midfield.

Vergne not actually putting it to much use is probably one of the reasons he isn't there anymore but of course it was an advantage on most tracks. Not all of them as those tracks with next to no degradation takes away the second of the two main advantages.

It's also very specific to be fair, we're talking about positions 9-12, I wonder mikey what were the 3 Jev actually managed to convert and if they fell between those positions or not? Might be interesting anyway.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 5:35 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Vergne not capitalising on an advantage doesn't mean there isn't one. We saw it with Alonso and Button as well.

Starting one row apart but one of them either gets...

A free choice of tyres which depending on what circuit and conditions that weekend can be a massive advantage
Fresher tyres usually by 3 laps which when it comes to your first stop those extra 3 laps in clean air can be all the difference in a tight midfield.

Vergne not actually putting it to much use is probably one of the reasons he isn't there anymore but of course it was an advantage on most tracks. Not all of them as those tracks with next to no degradation takes away the second of the two main advantages.

It's also very specific to be fair, we're talking about positions 9-12, I wonder mikey what were the 3 Jev actually managed to convert and if they fell between those positions or not? Might be interesting anyway.


The point is that it's a fallacy to suggest Vergne matched Ricciardo in races because he gained an advantage in qualifying. If he gained an advantage through qualifying behind he didn't use it so it must be something else.


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:43 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Vergne not capitalising on an advantage doesn't mean there isn't one. We saw it with Alonso and Button as well.

Starting one row apart but one of them either gets...

A free choice of tyres which depending on what circuit and conditions that weekend can be a massive advantage
Fresher tyres usually by 3 laps which when it comes to your first stop those extra 3 laps in clean air can be all the difference in a tight midfield.

Vergne not actually putting it to much use is probably one of the reasons he isn't there anymore but of course it was an advantage on most tracks. Not all of them as those tracks with next to no degradation takes away the second of the two main advantages.

It's also very specific to be fair, we're talking about positions 9-12, I wonder mikey what were the 3 Jev actually managed to convert and if they fell between those positions or not? Might be interesting anyway.


The point is that it's a fallacy to suggest Vergne matched Ricciardo in races because he gained an advantage in qualifying. If he gained an advantage through qualifying behind he didn't use it so it must be something else.


Yeah I wouldn't go that far but I'd still say if they happened to fall on those positions (9-12, I have no idea if they ever did or not though) then I'd say he had an advantage but obviously I've no recollection if he ever did capitalise on it so I wouldn't say the bolded, no.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:55 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Vergne not capitalising on an advantage doesn't mean there isn't one. We saw it with Alonso and Button as well.

Starting one row apart but one of them either gets...

A free choice of tyres which depending on what circuit and conditions that weekend can be a massive advantage
Fresher tyres usually by 3 laps which when it comes to your first stop those extra 3 laps in clean air can be all the difference in a tight midfield.

Vergne not actually putting it to much use is probably one of the reasons he isn't there anymore but of course it was an advantage on most tracks. Not all of them as those tracks with next to no degradation takes away the second of the two main advantages.

It's also very specific to be fair, we're talking about positions 9-12, I wonder mikey what were the 3 Jev actually managed to convert and if they fell between those positions or not? Might be interesting anyway.


The point is that it's a fallacy to suggest Vergne matched Ricciardo in races because he gained an advantage in qualifying. If he gained an advantage through qualifying behind he didn't use it so it must be something else.


Yeah I wouldn't go that far but I'd still say if they happened to fall on those positions (9-12, I have no idea if they ever did or not though) then I'd say he had an advantage but obviously I've no recollection if he ever did capitalise on it so I wouldn't say the bolded, no.

Another thing that has to be factored in is that Vergne was so much better than Ricciardo in the wet, I remember Vergne scoring some good points in the wet, with points being quite hard to come by for the STR drivers that has quite a weighting as well.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:08 am 
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Just checked 2012, Vergne finished 4 times in the points as opposed to 6 times for Ricciardo but everytime Vergne finished 8th whereas Ricciardo scored 9th and 10th place finishes so scored 6 less points.

Two of Vergne's 8th placed finished were in the wet, one he outqualified Ricciardo and the other qualified just one place behind Ricciardo so in fact in the points scoring races he wasn't handicapped by poor qualifying as such.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 4th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 4:27 pm 
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Vergne in the wet is a myth - most were due to luck


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:54 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
Vergne in the wet is a myth - most were due to luck

It wasn't luck that he was better than Ricciardo in the wet.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 4th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 10:42 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
Vergne in the wet is a myth - most were due to luck


What backs that statement up?


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