planetf1.com

It is currently Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:58 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 5571
Location: Michigan, USA
Since we got told off by the mods to move this away from the Grosjean topic...

For ease of continuing the discussion, here are the bits from that thread:

Shia Luck wrote:
If we're on KMag as well, IMHO he is just fulfilling the dangerous driving he showed in his first year at McL. (IIRC SPa he forced ALO, BUT and RAI (? possibly not, a third driver anyway) off track with very questionable moves.
Exediron wrote:
Totally agree about this. I've thought he was a dangerous driver since 2014, but somehow that all seems to have been forgotten until last year. Hulk called him the most unsporting driver in F1, and while I think it's close between him and Verstappen, at least with Max he makes up for it by being obviously good in other areas.
mikeyg123 wrote:
Max doesn't try and deliberately put people in the wall at 200 mph. He's reckless but it's not the same as going out to try and shunt your opponent.

And then a little later:

mikeyg123 wrote:
Well not really. He never tried to run someone into the Armco.
Fiki wrote:
I have to admit that's true. He's quite content to have them smash into the rear of his car.
mikeyg123 wrote:
So not the same thing at all. The main difference being intent. Verstappen doesn't want anyone to ram the back of his car. Magnussen intended to put Gasly in the wall at nearly 200mph.

You'd think if Verstappen did as much bad fairy cakes as people make out you wouldn't need to make stuff up or exaggerate.

Since this is something I wanted to keep discussing, I figured I'd open a new thread to leave that one alone and tackle what is in my opinion a legitimate question: Is Magnussen actually a more dangerous driver than Verstappen?

mikeyg123 uses the argument that Verstappen is less dangerous because he doesn't intend people to hit him in the rear when he moves over on the straight, contending that Magnussen does in fact intend to hit other drivers when he moves over as they're alongside. I do not agree with this. In my opinion neither driver wants a collision, but both are willing to cause it rather than concede a position: in essence, the defensive tactics of both drivers are a form of high-stakes bullying.

In the examples being discussed - Gasly and Magnussen in Baku 2018 and Raikkonen and Verstappen in Spa 2016 - both drivers make a potentially dangerous defensive maneuver that relies on the other driver braking on a straight to avoid contact. Kimi braked and Pierre didn't, but does that actually make Verstappen's move less dangerous? I do not think so. The speed was similar in both cases, and both drivers showed a total disregard for the safety of their opponent in each situation.

However, that's just my opinion. I'm interested to hear other opinions, and the arguments that support them.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23230
I think Verstappen's move at Spa was exceptionally dangerous and warranted a punishment, along with the others that brought on calls for the "Verstappen rule." I don't think there's that much difference in intent, but sadly the status of drivers has as much to do with how their actions are perceived as anything else. Verstappen is seen as being exceptionally talented, so people are more willing to turn a blind eye to transgressions than they are to KM, who is seen as much more "ordinary."

But the bottom line is both drivers have committed acts that show they intend to keep a following car behind at all costs. They rely on the other car to pull out. But in the interests of fairness, it's arguably a variation of Ricciardo's attitude when he relies on others to pull out when he commits to a dive-bomb. And those attempts are generally lauded


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 1960
Magnussen is fully to blame for Baku and he has fully accepted blame for the Baku incident and apologized several times to Gasly by now. Part of the flack he gets comes from the stupid "die for a point"-interview that was done before Baku (so he partly deserves that flack).

Apart from that, I have not seen much from him recently that differs from what Verstappen does regularly or what Perez and Ocon did to each other several times last season. Hartley strolling in slow drive into Gasly's racing line in Baku was probably the most dangerous move, if you want to name one.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:48 pm
Posts: 336
Most drivers on the grid act quite dangerously at times. KMag not more than others. It's mostly his attitude that makes people believe otherwise I think.

The only driver that makes me uncomfortable because of his aggressiveness is Ricciardo, but he gets away with it, so I feel the rest should as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 13773
Exediron wrote:
Since we got told off by the mods to move this away from the Grosjean topic...

For ease of continuing the discussion, here are the bits from that thread:

Shia Luck wrote:
If we're on KMag as well, IMHO he is just fulfilling the dangerous driving he showed in his first year at McL. (IIRC SPa he forced ALO, BUT and RAI (? possibly not, a third driver anyway) off track with very questionable moves.
Exediron wrote:
Totally agree about this. I've thought he was a dangerous driver since 2014, but somehow that all seems to have been forgotten until last year. Hulk called him the most unsporting driver in F1, and while I think it's close between him and Verstappen, at least with Max he makes up for it by being obviously good in other areas.
mikeyg123 wrote:
Max doesn't try and deliberately put people in the wall at 200 mph. He's reckless but it's not the same as going out to try and shunt your opponent.

And then a little later:

mikeyg123 wrote:
Well not really. He never tried to run someone into the Armco.
Fiki wrote:
I have to admit that's true. He's quite content to have them smash into the rear of his car.
mikeyg123 wrote:
So not the same thing at all. The main difference being intent. Verstappen doesn't want anyone to ram the back of his car. Magnussen intended to put Gasly in the wall at nearly 200mph.

You'd think if Verstappen did as much bad fairy cakes as people make out you wouldn't need to make stuff up or exaggerate.

Since this is something I wanted to keep discussing, I figured I'd open a new thread to leave that one alone and tackle what is in my opinion a legitimate question: Is Magnussen actually a more dangerous driver than Verstappen?

mikeyg123 uses the argument that Verstappen is less dangerous because he doesn't intend people to hit him in the rear when he moves over on the straight, contending that Magnussen does in fact intend to hit other drivers when he moves over as they're alongside. I do not agree with this. In my opinion neither driver wants a collision, but both are willing to cause it rather than concede a position: in essence, the defensive tactics of both drivers are a form of high-stakes bullying.

In the examples being discussed - Gasly and Magnussen in Baku 2018 and Raikkonen and Verstappen in Spa 2016 - both drivers make a potentially dangerous defensive maneuver that relies on the other driver braking on a straight to avoid contact. Kimi braked and Pierre didn't, but does that actually make Verstappen's move less dangerous? I do not think so. The speed was similar in both cases, and both drivers showed a total disregard for the safety of their opponent in each situation.

However, that's just my opinion. I'm interested to hear other opinions, and the arguments that support them.


The difference is Gasly was already alongside whilst Kimi wasn't. Gasly had no real chance to avoid the wall. If he slowed his wheels would have tangled with K-Mag. Kimi at least could avoid an accident. I don't think the two equate.

That doesn't excuse Verstappen's reckless driving on the day but the nature of it was different.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7176
Location: Belgium
mikeyg123 wrote:
The difference is Gasly was already alongside whilst Kimi wasn't. Gasly had no real chance to avoid the wall. If he slowed his wheels would have tangled with K-Mag. Kimi at least could avoid an accident. I don't think the two equate.

That doesn't excuse Verstappen's reckless driving on the day but the nature of it was different.
The nature of the incidents was different, but I sincerely doubt the intent was. I sincerely doubt Magnussen was trying to shove Gasly into the wall.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26928
I see them as being very similar in as much as both are happy to make contact with other cars and it's this aspect that sees them involved in more shunts than other drivers, it's not rocket science as such.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 12:49 am
Posts: 302
No .... well not if you are near the front of the race :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26928
iano wrote:
No .... well not if you are near the front of the race :)

Verstappen is near the front of the race.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2185
I want to see Magnussen in a Ferrari just so he can fight at the front against Hamilton and Verstappen. Fireworks guaranteed.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5021
KingVoid wrote:
I want to see Magnussen in a Ferrari just so he can fight at the front against Hamilton and Verstappen. Fireworks guaranteed.

He's certainly making a push for that seat right now and his timing couldn't be better. Raikkonen's contract is up at the end of the year and Ferrari must be looking to replace him. I mean, how complacent can they possibly be?

Unlike Ricciardo, Ferrari might view KMag as a solid #2 option. He's probably not on Vettel's level as a driver but he can deliver results consistently and might be an upgrade from Raikkonen at this point. A few more of these points scoring finishes and he might just make this happen.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26928
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I want to see Magnussen in a Ferrari just so he can fight at the front against Hamilton and Verstappen. Fireworks guaranteed.

He's certainly making a push for that seat right now and his timing couldn't be better. Raikkonen's contract is up at the end of the year and Ferrari must be looking to replace him. I mean, how complacent can they possibly be?

Unlike Ricciardo, Ferrari might view KMag as a solid #2 option. He's probably not on Vettel's level as a driver but he can deliver results consistently and might be an upgrade from Raikkonen at this point. A few more of these points scoring finishes and he might just make this happen.

They're not going to sign a driver that plays ping pong with other cars that's not the resume of a solid #2 driver.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2185
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I want to see Magnussen in a Ferrari just so he can fight at the front against Hamilton and Verstappen. Fireworks guaranteed.

He's certainly making a push for that seat right now and his timing couldn't be better. Raikkonen's contract is up at the end of the year and Ferrari must be looking to replace him. I mean, how complacent can they possibly be?

Unlike Ricciardo, Ferrari might view KMag as a solid #2 option. He's probably not on Vettel's level as a driver but he can deliver results consistently and might be an upgrade from Raikkonen at this point. A few more of these points scoring finishes and he might just make this happen.

They're not going to sign a driver that plays ping pong with other cars that's not the resume of a solid #2 driver.

That sounds exactly like Massa in 2005 to me.

Maybe Ferrari are sick and tired of Raikkonen’s passive nature whenever he’s close to any other cars and would rather want a more ruthless driver in the second seat who can actually make rivals sweat.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26928
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I want to see Magnussen in a Ferrari just so he can fight at the front against Hamilton and Verstappen. Fireworks guaranteed.

He's certainly making a push for that seat right now and his timing couldn't be better. Raikkonen's contract is up at the end of the year and Ferrari must be looking to replace him. I mean, how complacent can they possibly be?

Unlike Ricciardo, Ferrari might view KMag as a solid #2 option. He's probably not on Vettel's level as a driver but he can deliver results consistently and might be an upgrade from Raikkonen at this point. A few more of these points scoring finishes and he might just make this happen.

They're not going to sign a driver that plays ping pong with other cars that's not the resume of a solid #2 driver.

That sounds exactly like Massa in 2005 to me.

Maybe Ferrari are sick and tired of Raikkonen’s passive nature whenever he’s close to any other cars and would rather want a more ruthless driver in the second seat who can actually make rivals sweat.

Really in 2005 when Massa beat Villenueve and only retired from 2 races?

He did get dropped after his first year in F1 for having too many crashes, although not so much with other cars I think?

Did you get the 2 years mixed up?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 13773
If Ferrari are going to replace Kimi then there are better drivers than Magnussen available. Remember Grosjean was better than K-Mag last year and this season is still only 5 races old.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 12:49 am
Posts: 302
pokerman wrote:
iano wrote:
No .... well not if you are near the front of the race :)

Verstappen is near the front of the race.

So if you are near the front....Verstappen is more of a danger because you are more likely to encounter him.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 1386
mikeyg123 wrote:
If Ferrari are going to replace Kimi then there are better drivers than Magnussen available. Remember Grosjean was better than K-Mag last year and this season is still only 5 races old.

I think that is one point far too many people are not considering. I also thought that both were pretty bad most of last year, though Grosjean certainly better than Magnussen. I also don't think Grosjean is getting enough credit for his drive in Australia. He was a little bit behind in qualifying then basically matched in the race. It may only have because of the overtaking difficulties that held him back behind Magnussen. We just don't know. So infact, I think there have only been 3, maybe 4 races this year where Magnussen has looked much better than Grosjean. And I also don't think either are very good. They have both had a massive amount of incidents over the past few years. If Mercedes don't keep Bottas, I think he would be the best option to replace Kimi. If Bottas stays which I think is likely, then I see Perez as a pretty good option. I think Ocon should have a bit more experience before moving to a top team like Ferrari.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26928
iano wrote:
pokerman wrote:
iano wrote:
No .... well not if you are near the front of the race :)

Verstappen is near the front of the race.

So if you are near the front....Verstappen is more of a danger because you are more likely to encounter him.

Very much so.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:20 am
Posts: 119
Location: London, UK
I'll admit my first reaction when I saw the title was a resounding 'yes', but Max has made a serious challenge this year. He's hit both 'main' championship contenders, taken his teammate and himself out of good points scoring positions and even in his best race so far, run into the back of the car in front which he was lucky not to be more seriously affected by. Max is not a rookie tho and if this is not an unlucky phase or he doesn't learn from it he'll soon be past K-Mag, Grosjean and Maldonado as dangerous people to be around.

K-Mag is the future of Max if he does not learn from his current situation. In his first season at McL, K-Mag made a lot of dangerous moves. What we are seeing the last 2 years is a driver who has not learnt from that time. He wasn't highlighted as such during his next couple of seasons as being Mcl reserve and Renault's first year back he didn't spend much time near other cars. Since he has been at Haas however, and as the Haas has become quicker and the midfield tighter, he is in the vicinity of a lot of cars a lot more often, not to mention being on TV a lot more.

I think the difference I see between them both is that Max doesn't drive people off track if he doesn't 'have to', while K-Mag does.

Have fun :)

_________________
The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.”
Richard Bach, Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 1:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:52 am
Posts: 41
I think Max's moves are more precise and calculated to cause maximum drama for his opponent.
K-Mag doesn't seem to me to have the same level of precision with his defence. His moves look a little more random, which also maximises his opponent's drama.

Basically,

Max is like a stream of bat's p|ss. He shines out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark.
While K-Mag is like a dose of clap. Before he arrives is pleasure, but after is a pain in the dong.

...with apologies to Monty Python...... :uhoh:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 12:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:38 pm
Posts: 294
Max is aggressive and entitled.
Kmag is a nut. He must of had an older brother who brutalized him.
RoGro is just fun to watch. For his next crash the car will be stationary and simply crumple all by itself.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], owenmahamilton and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group