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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:37 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Spilled the beans only to Ferrari not to the FIA or the press, then like I say Ferrari took the oil burning ball and ran with it harder than Mercedes it seems?
Spilled to his new team, yes. You think that's somehow unlikely?

Your second point seems to be completely made up as far as I can tell?

You didn't read the post that it's Ferrari specifically that are preventing the oil usage from being reduced?


It's still an anon poster on a forum and he didn't say it was only Ferrari, apologies if I gave that impression, he didn't specify how many were against it.

Maybe should also point out he's a Mercedes fan.

Fair enough you seemed to state it as a fact.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:41 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I never heard rumours of oil burning in 2014.


Towards the back end of the year there was some talk as I recall but it didn't really start until the ex Mercedes combustion chief started at Ferrari on January 1st 2015. That forum I linked to had a thread on it by the 5th. It also mentions paddock rumour about over the past 6 months so halfway through 2014.

Which again relates to what I said that it didn't rear it's head until after Ferrari were also doing it.


Ferrari weren't doing it at that point, they were talking about what Mercedes were doing. (January 2015 talking about Mercedes in 2014)

Ferrari made public what Mercedes were doing at a time they were about to do the same themselves, that doesn't seem to make much sense?

From memory I would recall Red Bull bringing the issue forward a team that were not benefiting from oil burning.


Ferrari didn't make it public, they still haven't. We're talking about the rumours surfacing online just days after the ex-Merc combustion chief started work.

Rumours just surfaced on Ferrari and other motorsport forums about what Mercedes were doing with the oil in 2014.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 1:34 pm 
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Mod Titanium wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm talking about Ferrari copying Mercedes' oil burning.

Apologies, I misunderstood you. What do you mean by another level, what did they do?

Well I was referring to the extra oil tank which has been since refuted, but something else has reared its head with suggestions that Ferrari are burning oil from the turbo with Mercedes asking for clarification from the FIA about the oil rules surrounding the turbo, it's also thought that all the oil smoke on start up from the Ferrari emanates from the turbo.

The turbo oil can leak and there are a few explanations about it (turbo bearings can leak if there's not enough back pressure, although I'm not an expert on this, etc.). The Mercs used to smoke as well all these years. It is not exactly something sinister.


pokerman wrote:
I've never seen a car smoke like the Ferrari, anyway it's a technical expert that's putting it out there


imo the oil is from the amount of oil ferrari is burning compared to others. They are obviously burning more, hense the smoke. They might be using a oil feed from the turbos to mix into with the compressed turbo air for a better (oil/air) mixture instead of just dumping it into the engine.

As far as the turbo leaking oil due to the bearings then something is wrong with the turbo itself or the oil return to the oil pan. Turbo's are not designed to leak oil. Ferrari are doing something different in their setup to get the oil to possibly be rerouted causing oil to build up in the turbo since their is no boost pressure at start up. Once the car is moving and building boost the oil is pushed where its designed to go in their setup and the smoke clears.

On Topic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmJohHFHzfI

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Towards the back end of the year there was some talk as I recall but it didn't really start until the ex Mercedes combustion chief started at Ferrari on January 1st 2015. That forum I linked to had a thread on it by the 5th. It also mentions paddock rumour about over the past 6 months so halfway through 2014.

Which again relates to what I said that it didn't rear it's head until after Ferrari were also doing it.


Ferrari weren't doing it at that point, they were talking about what Mercedes were doing. (January 2015 talking about Mercedes in 2014)

Ferrari made public what Mercedes were doing at a time they were about to do the same themselves, that doesn't seem to make much sense?

From memory I would recall Red Bull bringing the issue forward a team that were not benefiting from oil burning.


Ferrari didn't make it public, they still haven't. We're talking about the rumours surfacing online just days after the ex-Merc combustion chief started work.

Rumours just surfaced on Ferrari and other motorsport forums about what Mercedes were doing with the oil in 2014.

Fair enough

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:12 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Mod Titanium wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
The turbo oil can leak and there are a few explanations about it (turbo bearings can leak if there's not enough back pressure, although I'm not an expert on this, etc.). The Mercs used to smoke as well all these years. It is not exactly something sinister.


pokerman wrote:
I've never seen a car smoke like the Ferrari, anyway it's a technical expert that's putting it out there


imo the oil is from the amount of oil ferrari is burning compared to others. They are obviously burning more, hense the smoke. They might be using a oil feed from the turbos to mix into with the compressed turbo air for a better (oil/air) mixture instead of just dumping it into the engine.

As far as the turbo leaking oil due to the bearings then something is wrong with the turbo itself or the oil return to the oil pan. Turbo's are not designed to leak oil. Ferrari are doing something different in their setup to get the oil to possibly be rerouted causing oil to build up in the turbo since their is no boost pressure at start up. Once the car is moving and building boost the oil is pushed where its designed to go in their setup and the smoke clears.

In simple terms yes. There is nothing "wrong" with the turbo, it is just that at low speeds when the turbo is not on, there is not enough pressure for the oil to go where it should be. Maybe this turbo design is not as good, but this does not mean that it is outright cheating on purpose. Instead of dumping oil in the engine they have a valve (if I remember correctly) that sends it out to exhaust, hence the plume. I read a theory somewhere in a forum but it was way technical for me. I'll try and find it again.

But the point being made repeatedly is that this is just a theory and we do not know (at this point) if it is on purpose, yet Ferrari has been judged and executed in these past few pages... Mercedes was doing this for years now, smoke and all, albeit not as much as the Ferrari's. The moment Ferrari has smoke certain posters are up on arms

Yeah it's your last paragraph that is a little annoying. It's fine when Mercedes do it but Armageddon when anybody else is involved.

Definitely too technical for me! :D

But you yourself before singled out Mercedes for doing this when looking to taint their titles if in fact it was true.
im truly baffled that you don’t see the difference between saying you’d be upset if it turned out a team won the title with an illegal car and flat out accusing another team of cheating and taking internet rumour as fact. How are these two things the same to you?


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:17 am 
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Quote:
@SportmphMark

At FIA's insistence, from this morning the Ferrari will be fitted with hardware that would make it impossible to use the ers in the way some rivals are concerned might have been possible. Explanation later on


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:28 am 
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Clarky wrote:
Quote:
@SportmphMark

At FIA's insistence, from this morning the Ferrari will be fitted with hardware that would make it impossible to use the ers in the way some rivals are concerned might have been possible. Explanation later on


Reliable source?


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:02 am 
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Lojik wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Quote:
@SportmphMark

At FIA's insistence, from this morning the Ferrari will be fitted with hardware that would make it impossible to use the ers in the way some rivals are concerned might have been possible. Explanation later on


Reliable source?

Motorsport magazine


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:13 am 
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Clarky wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Quote:
@SportmphMark

At FIA's insistence, from this morning the Ferrari will be fitted with hardware that would make it impossible to use the ers in the way some rivals are concerned might have been possible. Explanation later on


Reliable source?

Motorsport magazine
same source also says that the FIA has specifically stated there is nothing illegal about the Ferrari architecture, before some take the above and draw the inevitable 2+2=5 conclusions


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:38 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
In simple terms yes. There is nothing "wrong" with the turbo, it is just that at low speeds when the turbo is not on, there is not enough pressure for the oil to go where it should be. Maybe this turbo design is not as good, but this does not mean that it is outright cheating on purpose. Instead of dumping oil in the engine they have a valve (if I remember correctly) that sends it out to exhaust, hence the plume. I read a theory somewhere in a forum but it was way technical for me. I'll try and find it again.

But the point being made repeatedly is that this is just a theory and we do not know (at this point) if it is on purpose, yet Ferrari has been judged and executed in these past few pages... Mercedes was doing this for years now, smoke and all, albeit not as much as the Ferrari's. The moment Ferrari has smoke certain posters are up on arms

I'm 90+% certain both Ferrari and Mercedes are cheating. The intent of the rules is that you don't burn oil for power at all - everyone knows they're both doing it, and I have a (very) hard time believing they're doing it by accident.

But I certainly don't care more about one doing it than the other, and I frikkin' hate Mercedes! :lol:


It may well be true. But the rule itself is a bit relaxed, in a sense that it says that nothing else should be burned other than petrol, however oil always finds it's way in the engine as part of the lubrication process, so it is expected that some oil will be burned. Anyway, they have investigated and found nothing before, so let's see what happens!


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:50 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Mod Titanium wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Apologies, I misunderstood you. What do you mean by another level, what did they do?

Well I was referring to the extra oil tank which has been since refuted, but something else has reared its head with suggestions that Ferrari are burning oil from the turbo with Mercedes asking for clarification from the FIA about the oil rules surrounding the turbo, it's also thought that all the oil smoke on start up from the Ferrari emanates from the turbo.

The turbo oil can leak and there are a few explanations about it (turbo bearings can leak if there's not enough back pressure, although I'm not an expert on this, etc.). The Mercs used to smoke as well all these years. It is not exactly something sinister.


pokerman wrote:
I've never seen a car smoke like the Ferrari, anyway it's a technical expert that's putting it out there


imo the oil is from the amount of oil ferrari is burning compared to others. They are obviously burning more, hense the smoke. They might be using a oil feed from the turbos to mix into with the compressed turbo air for a better (oil/air) mixture instead of just dumping it into the engine.

As far as the turbo leaking oil due to the bearings then something is wrong with the turbo itself or the oil return to the oil pan. Turbo's are not designed to leak oil. Ferrari are doing something different in their setup to get the oil to possibly be rerouted causing oil to build up in the turbo since their is no boost pressure at start up. Once the car is moving and building boost the oil is pushed where its designed to go in their setup and the smoke clears.

On Topic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmJohHFHzfI


This is very confusing. Does it matter if the turbo is in or out of the engine envelope?

The regs say that there can be no oil used for combustion, shouldn't matter if the oil comes from the turbo or anywhere else...


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:58 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
In simple terms yes. There is nothing "wrong" with the turbo, it is just that at low speeds when the turbo is not on, there is not enough pressure for the oil to go where it should be. Maybe this turbo design is not as good, but this does not mean that it is outright cheating on purpose. Instead of dumping oil in the engine they have a valve (if I remember correctly) that sends it out to exhaust, hence the plume. I read a theory somewhere in a forum but it was way technical for me. I'll try and find it again.

But the point being made repeatedly is that this is just a theory and we do not know (at this point) if it is on purpose, yet Ferrari has been judged and executed in these past few pages... Mercedes was doing this for years now, smoke and all, albeit not as much as the Ferrari's. The moment Ferrari has smoke certain posters are up on arms

Yeah it's your last paragraph that is a little annoying. It's fine when Mercedes do it but Armageddon when anybody else is involved.

Definitely too technical for me! :D

But you yourself before singled out Mercedes for doing this when looking to taint their titles if in fact it was true.
im truly baffled that you don’t see the difference between saying you’d be upset if it turned out a team won the title with an illegal car and flat out accusing another team of cheating and taking internet rumour as fact. How are these two things the same to you?

I feel the same Zoue. The issue appears that you are trying to "taint" the Mercedes title. I suspect we should be celebrating if a team won with a car that was illegal???


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:40 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Mod Titanium wrote:
imo the oil is from the amount of oil ferrari is burning compared to others. They are obviously burning more, hense the smoke. They might be using a oil feed from the turbos to mix into with the compressed turbo air for a better (oil/air) mixture instead of just dumping it into the engine.

As far as the turbo leaking oil due to the bearings then something is wrong with the turbo itself or the oil return to the oil pan. Turbo's are not designed to leak oil. Ferrari are doing something different in their setup to get the oil to possibly be rerouted causing oil to build up in the turbo since their is no boost pressure at start up. Once the car is moving and building boost the oil is pushed where its designed to go in their setup and the smoke clears.

In simple terms yes. There is nothing "wrong" with the turbo, it is just that at low speeds when the turbo is not on, there is not enough pressure for the oil to go where it should be. Maybe this turbo design is not as good, but this does not mean that it is outright cheating on purpose. Instead of dumping oil in the engine they have a valve (if I remember correctly) that sends it out to exhaust, hence the plume. I read a theory somewhere in a forum but it was way technical for me. I'll try and find it again.

But the point being made repeatedly is that this is just a theory and we do not know (at this point) if it is on purpose, yet Ferrari has been judged and executed in these past few pages... Mercedes was doing this for years now, smoke and all, albeit not as much as the Ferrari's. The moment Ferrari has smoke certain posters are up on arms

Yeah it's your last paragraph that is a little annoying. It's fine when Mercedes do it but Armageddon when anybody else is involved.

Definitely too technical for me! :D

But you yourself before singled out Mercedes for doing this when looking to taint their titles if in fact it was true.
im truly baffled that you don’t see the difference between saying you’d be upset if it turned out a team won the title with an illegal car and flat out accusing another team of cheating and taking internet rumour as fact. How are these two things the same to you?

Still missing the singling out Mercedes bit, if they are cheating with the oil burning then so are Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
In simple terms yes. There is nothing "wrong" with the turbo, it is just that at low speeds when the turbo is not on, there is not enough pressure for the oil to go where it should be. Maybe this turbo design is not as good, but this does not mean that it is outright cheating on purpose. Instead of dumping oil in the engine they have a valve (if I remember correctly) that sends it out to exhaust, hence the plume. I read a theory somewhere in a forum but it was way technical for me. I'll try and find it again.

But the point being made repeatedly is that this is just a theory and we do not know (at this point) if it is on purpose, yet Ferrari has been judged and executed in these past few pages... Mercedes was doing this for years now, smoke and all, albeit not as much as the Ferrari's. The moment Ferrari has smoke certain posters are up on arms

Yeah it's your last paragraph that is a little annoying. It's fine when Mercedes do it but Armageddon when anybody else is involved.

Definitely too technical for me! :D

But you yourself before singled out Mercedes for doing this when looking to taint their titles if in fact it was true.
im truly baffled that you don’t see the difference between saying you’d be upset if it turned out a team won the title with an illegal car and flat out accusing another team of cheating and taking internet rumour as fact. How are these two things the same to you?

Still missing the singling out Mercedes bit, if they are cheating with the oil burning then so are Ferrari.
im not sure whether you are being deliberately obtuse? This thread is about the Ferrari allegations and the issue is your insistnece on naming them as cheats when you don’t actually have any evidence to back that up. Your constant attempts to deflect from that by trying to claim some weird parallel with me saying I’d be upset IF Mercedes won a title by cheating is a little bizarre. It seems strange that you can’t simply admit that your allegations are unfounded?


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:53 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Yeah it's your last paragraph that is a little annoying. It's fine when Mercedes do it but Armageddon when anybody else is involved.

Definitely too technical for me! :D

But you yourself before singled out Mercedes for doing this when looking to taint their titles if in fact it was true.
im truly baffled that you don’t see the difference between saying you’d be upset if it turned out a team won the title with an illegal car and flat out accusing another team of cheating and taking internet rumour as fact. How are these two things the same to you?

Still missing the singling out Mercedes bit, if they are cheating with the oil burning then so are Ferrari.
im not sure whether you are being deliberately obtuse? This thread is about the Ferrari allegations and the issue is your insistnece on naming them as cheats when you don’t actually have any evidence to back that up. Your constant attempts to deflect from that by trying to claim some weird parallel with me saying I’d be upset IF Mercedes won a title by cheating is a little bizarre. It seems strange that you can’t simply admit that your allegations are unfounded?

I actually only forward on what's been said, my only actual contribution was that it's a serious offence, when talking about making allegations you said I wanted Ferrari removing from the title challenge to gift Hamilton's 5th title like how would that remove Ferrari from the title challenge in the first place?

Meanwhile the allegations are serious enough that the FIA have fitted a secondary sensor to make sure the original sensor is not being bypassed in some way.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
But you yourself before singled out Mercedes for doing this when looking to taint their titles if in fact it was true.
im truly baffled that you don’t see the difference between saying you’d be upset if it turned out a team won the title with an illegal car and flat out accusing another team of cheating and taking internet rumour as fact. How are these two things the same to you?

Still missing the singling out Mercedes bit, if they are cheating with the oil burning then so are Ferrari.
im not sure whether you are being deliberately obtuse? This thread is about the Ferrari allegations and the issue is your insistnece on naming them as cheats when you don’t actually have any evidence to back that up. Your constant attempts to deflect from that by trying to claim some weird parallel with me saying I’d be upset IF Mercedes won a title by cheating is a little bizarre. It seems strange that you can’t simply admit that your allegations are unfounded?

I actually only forward on what's been said, my only actual contribution was that it's a serious offence, when talking about making allegations you said I wanted Ferrari removing from the title challenge to gift Hamilton's 5th title like how would that remove Ferrari from the title challenge in the first place?

Meanwhile the allegations are serious enough that the FIA have fitted a secondary sensor to make sure the original sensor is not being bypassed in some way.
but that’s not quite true, is it? You’re not providing quotes but are specifically stating that eg Ferrari are cheating by using it in qualifying. You aren’t qualifying that by saying these are the allegations being made and it comes across as purely coming from you


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:38 pm 
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I would like to know why Ferrari are the only ones who have to run this sensor when Mercedes were the ones making the allegation?


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:21 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I would like to know why Ferrari are the only ones who have to run this sensor when Mercedes were the ones making the allegation?


The Ferrari PU is the only one with a tandem ES battery. They split theirs from the start (2014) and no-one else has and this potential loophole is specific to this design as instead of just one ES and one output they have 2 ES's and 2 outputs. (Not illegal)

The FIA only had one sensor on one output so now they have one on both if I've understood correctly.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:13 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Still missing the singling out Mercedes bit, if they are cheating with the oil burning then so are Ferrari.
im not sure whether you are being deliberately obtuse? This thread is about the Ferrari allegations and the issue is your insistnece on naming them as cheats when you don’t actually have any evidence to back that up. Your constant attempts to deflect from that by trying to claim some weird parallel with me saying I’d be upset IF Mercedes won a title by cheating is a little bizarre. It seems strange that you can’t simply admit that your allegations are unfounded?

I actually only forward on what's been said, my only actual contribution was that it's a serious offence, when talking about making allegations you said I wanted Ferrari removing from the title challenge to gift Hamilton's 5th title like how would that remove Ferrari from the title challenge in the first place?

Meanwhile the allegations are serious enough that the FIA have fitted a secondary sensor to make sure the original sensor is not being bypassed in some way.
but that’s not quite true, is it? You’re not providing quotes but are specifically stating that eg Ferrari are cheating by using it in qualifying. You aren’t qualifying that by saying these are the allegations being made and it comes across as purely coming from you

No that was what I read or heard.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:14 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I would like to know why Ferrari are the only ones who have to run this sensor when Mercedes were the ones making the allegation?

Is it Mercedes?

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 7:16 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Quote:
@SportmphMark

At FIA's insistence, from this morning the Ferrari will be fitted with hardware that would make it impossible to use the ers in the way some rivals are concerned might have been possible. Explanation later on


Reliable source?

Motorsport magazine
same source also says that the FIA has specifically stated there is nothing illegal about the Ferrari architecture, before some take the above and draw the inevitable 2+2=5 conclusions

Nice, so in theory it just takes a delusional and/or malicious rival team to have their opponent hampered by having to carry extra weight in the form of an extra sensor to be super duper sure they're not doing anything illegal?

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:28 am 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I would like to know why Ferrari are the only ones who have to run this sensor when Mercedes were the ones making the allegation?

Is it Mercedes?

http://www.f1i.com/news/304765-fia-beef ... onaco.html

Lauda on behalf of Mercedes certainly did raise the questions, one of the first ones


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:30 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Lojik wrote:

Reliable source?

Motorsport magazine
same source also says that the FIA has specifically stated there is nothing illegal about the Ferrari architecture, before some take the above and draw the inevitable 2+2=5 conclusions

Nice, so in theory it just takes a delusional and/or malicious rival team to have their opponent hampered by having to carry extra weight in the form of an extra sensor to be super duper sure they're not doing anything illegal?

According to the article I attached above, the FIA has already NOT found anything.

This is to be super extra double surely sure that they don't do it...... Sounds fishy really


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 10:23 am 
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Anybody else watch the over-the-front-wing camera view from Raikonnen?

The physical movement of the wing elements between low speed and high speed was interesting...

Clearly the aerodynamics forces are significant so one would expect some movement, what might raise an eyebrow or two was the consequential change in angle of attack of the elements.

For those that don't know, lift (downforce) increases with angle of attack, since induced drag is proportional to lift, so does drag.

The angle of attack of the Ferrari front wing elements was clearly reducing as the speed increased, in other words the effective lift co-efficient was higher at low speed and lower at high speed, exactly what you would engineer if it were legal to make a 'movable aerodynamic device'...

Oh wait...


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 11:07 am 
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Battle Far wrote:
Anybody else watch the over-the-front-wing camera view from Raikonnen?

The physical movement of the wing elements between low speed and high speed was interesting...

Clearly the aerodynamics forces are significant so one would expect some movement, what might raise an eyebrow or two was the consequential change in angle of attack of the elements.

For those that don't know, lift (downforce) increases with angle of attack, since induced drag is proportional to lift, so does drag.

The angle of attack of the Ferrari front wing elements was clearly reducing as the speed increased, in other words the effective lift co-efficient was higher at low speed and lower at high speed, exactly what you would engineer if it were legal to make a 'movable aerodynamic device'...

Oh wait...


Wings have been flexing since forever... Do you remember the Macca's front wing flexing like crazy in 2007-8? The test loads have been revised since the RB domination days if I'm not mistaken and as long as all the wings pass these FIA tests, then they are acceptable. At high speeds they flex, so be it. They all do, so nothing to see really.

Ps, I just found this from last year:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fron ... ll-934937/


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 11:15 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Clarky wrote:


Reliable source?

Motorsport magazine
same source also says that the FIA has specifically stated there is nothing illegal about the Ferrari architecture, before some take the above and draw the inevitable 2+2=5 conclusions

Nice, so in theory it just takes a delusional and/or malicious rival team to have their opponent hampered by having to carry extra weight in the form of an extra sensor to be super duper sure they're not doing anything illegal?

The FIA chose to add the sensor, not any rival team, clearly they are not able to judge it as fully legal without this... All teams query rules or ask for clarification, Ferrari have done it to their advantage many times too


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 11:22 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Zoue wrote:
same source also says that the FIA has specifically stated there is nothing illegal about the Ferrari architecture, before some take the above and draw the inevitable 2+2=5 conclusions

Nice, so in theory it just takes a delusional and/or malicious rival team to have their opponent hampered by having to carry extra weight in the form of an extra sensor to be super duper sure they're not doing anything illegal?

The FIA chose to add the sensor, not any rival team, clearly they are not able to judge it as fully legal without this... All teams query rules or ask for clarification, Ferrari have done it to their advantage many times too


In fairness the FIA was asked by the other teams to do something, they didn't just wake up one morning and thought of doing this. Again, they have investigated before and found nothing wrong with the Ferrari car so only the other teams complaints prompted this


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 1:43 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Zoue wrote:
same source also says that the FIA has specifically stated there is nothing illegal about the Ferrari architecture, before some take the above and draw the inevitable 2+2=5 conclusions

Nice, so in theory it just takes a delusional and/or malicious rival team to have their opponent hampered by having to carry extra weight in the form of an extra sensor to be super duper sure they're not doing anything illegal?

The FIA chose to add the sensor, not any rival team, clearly they are not able to judge it as fully legal without this... All teams query rules or ask for clarification, Ferrari have done it to their advantage many times too


In fairness the FIA was asked by the other teams to do something, they didn't just wake up one morning and thought of doing this. Again, they have investigated before and found nothing wrong with the Ferrari car so only the other teams complaints prompted this


More articles mention that this is a response to questions from Mercedes:

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/news ... ers-system

Lauda is questioning the design of the two batteries, which is the same since they were introduced 4 years ago.


Also, Sauber is not required t do this, just Ferrari:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/05/24/fer ... in-monaco/


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 2:05 pm 
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Posts: 200
Siao7 wrote:
Battle Far wrote:
Anybody else watch the over-the-front-wing camera view from Raikonnen?

The physical movement of the wing elements between low speed and high speed was interesting...

Clearly the aerodynamics forces are significant so one would expect some movement, what might raise an eyebrow or two was the consequential change in angle of attack of the elements.

For those that don't know, lift (downforce) increases with angle of attack, since induced drag is proportional to lift, so does drag.

The angle of attack of the Ferrari front wing elements was clearly reducing as the speed increased, in other words the effective lift co-efficient was higher at low speed and lower at high speed, exactly what you would engineer if it were legal to make a 'movable aerodynamic device'...

Oh wait...
Wings have been flexing since forever... Do you remember the Macca's front wing flexing like crazy in 2007-8? The test loads have been revised since the RB domination days if I'm not mistaken and as long as all the wings pass these FIA tests, then they are acceptable. At high speeds they flex, so be it. They all do, so nothing to see really.

Ps, I just found this from last year:

By any definition, https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fron ... ll-934937/
The FIA wing bending test is restricted to the mainplane.

By any definition what Red Bull were doing last year and Ferrari are doing this is deliberately engineering 'movable aerodynamic devices', why no one has protested is astonishing


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Posts: 6565
Battle Far wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Battle Far wrote:
Anybody else watch the over-the-front-wing camera view from Raikonnen?

The physical movement of the wing elements between low speed and high speed was interesting...

Clearly the aerodynamics forces are significant so one would expect some movement, what might raise an eyebrow or two was the consequential change in angle of attack of the elements.

For those that don't know, lift (downforce) increases with angle of attack, since induced drag is proportional to lift, so does drag.

The angle of attack of the Ferrari front wing elements was clearly reducing as the speed increased, in other words the effective lift co-efficient was higher at low speed and lower at high speed, exactly what you would engineer if it were legal to make a 'movable aerodynamic device'...

Oh wait...
Wings have been flexing since forever... Do you remember the Macca's front wing flexing like crazy in 2007-8? The test loads have been revised since the RB domination days if I'm not mistaken and as long as all the wings pass these FIA tests, then they are acceptable. At high speeds they flex, so be it. They all do, so nothing to see really.

Ps, I just found this from last year:

By any definition, https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fron ... ll-934937/
The FIA wing bending test is restricted to the mainplane.

By any definition what Red Bull were doing last year and Ferrari are doing this is deliberately engineering 'movable aerodynamic devices', why no one has protested is astonishing


Ok, I just realised you wrote "elements" in the first post, I thought you meant the whole wing.

What the article quoted above is saying is that no part stays rigid, under really heavy loads they flex. Now if they have molded this flexibility of certain elements to help channel air when deformed under heavier loads, then it is either clever engineering or a cheat. Thin line in F1!

If FIA scrutinised this and are happy with this satisfying their tests, then I guess no harm? I can remember many examples of flexing wings that never raised an eyebrow, especially the Macca one was very visible. I do not remember ever any of these being punished.

They should either update their tests or change the regs maybe


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 2:58 pm 
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Posts: 28426
Covalent wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Motorsport magazine
same source also says that the FIA has specifically stated there is nothing illegal about the Ferrari architecture, before some take the above and draw the inevitable 2+2=5 conclusions

Nice, so in theory it just takes a delusional and/or malicious rival team to have their opponent hampered by having to carry extra weight in the form of an extra sensor to be super duper sure they're not doing anything illegal?

I actually heard that they found wires which they had no idea what they were for and that's why they felt the need for a secondary sensor.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 2:58 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I would like to know why Ferrari are the only ones who have to run this sensor when Mercedes were the ones making the allegation?

Is it Mercedes?

http://www.f1i.com/news/304765-fia-beef ... onaco.html

Lauda on behalf of Mercedes certainly did raise the questions, one of the first ones

Yes I've also heard now that it might have been Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 4:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Motorsport magazine
same source also says that the FIA has specifically stated there is nothing illegal about the Ferrari architecture, before some take the above and draw the inevitable 2+2=5 conclusions

Nice, so in theory it just takes a delusional and/or malicious rival team to have their opponent hampered by having to carry extra weight in the form of an extra sensor to be super duper sure they're not doing anything illegal?

I actually heard that they found wires which they had no idea what they were for and that's why they felt the need for a secondary sensor.


Are the FIA incapable of asking what the wires were for or Ferrari incapable of replying?

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 4:32 pm 
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Posts: 1648
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I actually heard that they found wires which they had no idea what they were for and that's why they felt the need for a secondary sensor.


Are the FIA incapable of asking what the wires were for or Ferrari incapable of replying?



They are probably scared of getting electrocuted.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 4:42 pm 
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Posts: 6565
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I actually heard that they found wires which they had no idea what they were for and that's why they felt the need for a secondary sensor.


Are the FIA incapable of asking what the wires were for or Ferrari incapable of replying?



They are probably scared of getting electrocuted.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


The story goes that they think that it is such a complicated cheating system, that the FIA doesn't understand it. So obviously illegal I guess...


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 4:51 pm 
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Posts: 1648
Siao7 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I actually heard that they found wires which they had no idea what they were for and that's why they felt the need for a secondary sensor.


Are the FIA incapable of asking what the wires were for or Ferrari incapable of replying?



They are probably scared of getting electrocuted.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


The story goes that they think that it is such a complicated cheating system, that the FIA doesn't understand it. So obviously illegal I guess...


What one reads on internet gets ridiculous as time goes on, no wonder the world is getting dumber.

The specs of the system is submitted to the FIA for scrutiny also the FIA has the power to ask for explanation of anything they don't understand.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Posts: 535
Siao7 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Zoue wrote:
same source also says that the FIA has specifically stated there is nothing illegal about the Ferrari architecture, before some take the above and draw the inevitable 2+2=5 conclusions

Nice, so in theory it just takes a delusional and/or malicious rival team to have their opponent hampered by having to carry extra weight in the form of an extra sensor to be super duper sure they're not doing anything illegal?

The FIA chose to add the sensor, not any rival team, clearly they are not able to judge it as fully legal without this... All teams query rules or ask for clarification, Ferrari have done it to their advantage many times too


In fairness the FIA was asked by the other teams to do something, they didn't just wake up one morning and thought of doing this. Again, they have investigated before and found nothing wrong with the Ferrari car so only the other teams complaints prompted this


More articles mention that this is a response to questions from Mercedes:

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/news ... ers-system

Lauda is questioning the design of the two batteries, which is the same since they were introduced 4 years ago.


Also, Sauber is not required t do this, just Ferrari:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/05/24/fer ... in-monaco/

So what if it's a response to questions?
If the FIA thought it was legal and didn't need extra tests they wouldn't need to do them no matter how much fuss was kicked up. If they do them to keep another team happy when they believe it's all fine and dandy they are too weak to be running the show


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:01 pm 
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Posts: 23910
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I actually only forward on what's been said, my only actual contribution was that it's a serious offence, when talking about making allegations you said I wanted Ferrari removing from the title challenge to gift Hamilton's 5th title like how would that remove Ferrari from the title challenge in the first place?

Meanwhile the allegations are serious enough that the FIA have fitted a secondary sensor to make sure the original sensor is not being bypassed in some way.
but that’s not quite true, is it? You’re not providing quotes but are specifically stating that eg Ferrari are cheating by using it in qualifying. You aren’t qualifying that by saying these are the allegations being made and it comes across as purely coming from you

No that was what I read or heard.

I don't think you're being particularly honest here. Several posters have taken issue with you claiming the accusations as fact and there have been a number of discussions about it. This thread would probably be less than half as long if you hadn't done so. But if you're backpedalling now and no longer trying to claim it's true then I guess we can move on


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:20 pm 
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Posts: 28426
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Nice, so in theory it just takes a delusional and/or malicious rival team to have their opponent hampered by having to carry extra weight in the form of an extra sensor to be super duper sure they're not doing anything illegal?

I actually heard that they found wires which they had no idea what they were for and that's why they felt the need for a secondary sensor.


Are the FIA incapable of asking what the wires were for or Ferrari incapable of replying?

Maybe Ferrari said that the wires supply a seat heater to keep Vettel's bum nice and cosy, if you get my drift?

Maybe Ferrari did give an explanation that still left the stewards scratching their heads, it seems complicated enough for the necessity of a secondary sensor.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:21 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I actually heard that they found wires which they had no idea what they were for and that's why they felt the need for a secondary sensor.


Are the FIA incapable of asking what the wires were for or Ferrari incapable of replying?



They are probably scared of getting electrocuted.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


The story goes that they think that it is such a complicated cheating system, that the FIA doesn't understand it. So obviously illegal I guess...


What one reads on internet gets ridiculous as time goes on, no wonder the world is getting dumber.

The specs of the system is submitted to the FIA for scrutiny also the FIA has the power to ask for explanation of anything they don't understand.

If they understand it then why the need to fit a secondary sensor?

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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