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Which of these fine pilots is the best?
Valtteri Bottas 17%  17%  [ 11 ]
Nico Rosberg 83%  83%  [ 55 ]
Total votes : 66
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:49 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking back to the tail end of last season, Bottas has really matched Hamilton over the last 9 races. Did Rosberg ever have a run against him that good in comparison after 2013?

Japan 2015 until Spain 2016 was quite a good run for him. That's 11 races I think.


Mexico - Russia you mean? Surely? Hamilton won the three races before that Japan, Russia, USA. That would be 7 races.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:07 am 
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As we saw at Baku, the final result doesn’t always tell the whole story.

Russia 2015 - Rosberg was leading before his car failed

USA 2015 - Rosberg was clearly faster than Hamilton but the SC slashed his 10 second lead. He did make a mistake but that doesn’t change his underlying pace advantage that race.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:13 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
As we saw at Baku, the final result doesn’t always tell the whole story.

Russia 2015 - Rosberg was leading before his car failed

USA 2015 - Rosberg was clearly faster than Hamilton but the SC slashed his 10 second lead. He did make a mistake but that doesn’t change his underlying pace advantage that race.


Yes it's all subjective of course. I guess my point would be that currently Bottas looks as good as Rosberg ever did. The question is can he maintain it?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:45 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking back to the tail end of last season, Bottas has really matched Hamilton over the last 9 races. Did Rosberg ever have a run against him that good in comparison after 2013?


I know the direct comparison is between Bottas and Rosberg against Hamilton but Bottas this season has had to worry about 2 cars which have been faster so far and 2 which can be match or better like Monaco. Rosberg races are dependent on beating his teammate at turn 1, I just think they are very different situations to be in.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:54 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking back to the tail end of last season, Bottas has really matched Hamilton over the last 9 races. Did Rosberg ever have a run against him that good in comparison after 2013?


I know the direct comparison is between Bottas and Rosberg against Hamilton but Bottas this season has had to worry about 2 cars which have been faster so far and 2 which can be match or better like Monaco. Rosberg races are dependent on beating his teammate at turn 1, I just think they are very different situations to be in.

That's a good point but it can also work in his favour as Hamilton can sometimes be a bit anonymous when he's driving in the midfield.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:03 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
As we saw at Baku, the final result doesn’t always tell the whole story.

Russia 2015 - Rosberg was leading before his car failed

USA 2015 - Rosberg was clearly faster than Hamilton but the SC slashed his 10 second lead. He did make a mistake but that doesn’t change his underlying pace advantage that race.


Yes it's all subjective of course. I guess my point would be that currently Bottas looks as good as Rosberg ever did. The question is can he maintain it?


Subjective plus a lot of guessing in some cases. There are many things we cannot tell would or wouldn't have happened. When Hamilton outbraked himself in Mexico and drove straight from turn 1 to turn 3 - would he have recieved a penalty if the Championship battle wouldn't have ended then?

Bottas is looking good compared to Hamilton at the moment. If it turns out that Hamilton can get back to how he and the car were performing in Spain, then the picture changes, but based on the season so far, Bottas is comparing well to Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:07 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking back to the tail end of last season, Bottas has really matched Hamilton over the last 9 races. Did Rosberg ever have a run against him that good in comparison after 2013?


I know the direct comparison is between Bottas and Rosberg against Hamilton but Bottas this season has had to worry about 2 cars which have been faster so far and 2 which can be match or better like Monaco. Rosberg races are dependent on beating his teammate at turn 1, I just think they are very different situations to be in.

That's a good point but it can also work in his favour as Hamilton can sometimes be a bit anonymous when he's driving in the midfield.


True, tbh I think it's hard for any driver this year who find themselves lower down the grid, overtaking is non existent between the top cars, also there is nothing you can do with strategy. Qualifying is even more important than ever.

Bottas could be a tenth slower than his teammate and find himself 4th, 5th or 6th and he wouldn't have the advantage of a much faster car, Rosberg or Hamilton could be well off their teammates, qualify second and win the race at turn 1. I do think both drivers find themselves in very different situations.

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Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:03 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Covalent wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking back to the tail end of last season, Bottas has really matched Hamilton over the last 9 races. Did Rosberg ever have a run against him that good in comparison after 2013?


I know the direct comparison is between Bottas and Rosberg against Hamilton but Bottas this season has had to worry about 2 cars which have been faster so far and 2 which can be match or better like Monaco. Rosberg races are dependent on beating his teammate at turn 1, I just think they are very different situations to be in.

That's a good point but it can also work in his favour as Hamilton can sometimes be a bit anonymous when he's driving in the midfield.


True, tbh I think it's hard for any driver this year who find themselves lower down the grid, overtaking is non existent between the top cars, also there is nothing you can do with strategy. Qualifying is even more important than ever.

Bottas could be a tenth slower than his teammate and find himself 4th, 5th or 6th and he wouldn't have the advantage of a much faster car, Rosberg or Hamilton could be well off their teammates, qualify second and win the race at turn 1. I do think both drivers find themselves in very different situations.


This is false equivalency here there is a difference between being poor and being a tenth slower.

Take this last race for example the same way Hamilton had a bad weekend is the same way Bottas had a poor weekend at Baku.

I bet you anything if Rosberg was still at Merc Hamilton will not be as relaxed as he is right now with his poor showings.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:41 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Covalent wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking back to the tail end of last season, Bottas has really matched Hamilton over the last 9 races. Did Rosberg ever have a run against him that good in comparison after 2013?


I know the direct comparison is between Bottas and Rosberg against Hamilton but Bottas this season has had to worry about 2 cars which have been faster so far and 2 which can be match or better like Monaco. Rosberg races are dependent on beating his teammate at turn 1, I just think they are very different situations to be in.

That's a good point but it can also work in his favour as Hamilton can sometimes be a bit anonymous when he's driving in the midfield.


True, tbh I think it's hard for any driver this year who find themselves lower down the grid, overtaking is non existent between the top cars, also there is nothing you can do with strategy. Qualifying is even more important than ever.

Bottas could be a tenth slower than his teammate and find himself 4th, 5th or 6th and he wouldn't have the advantage of a much faster car, Rosberg or Hamilton could be well off their teammates, qualify second and win the race at turn 1. I do think both drivers find themselves in very different situations.


This is false equivalency here there is a difference between being poor and being a tenth slower.

Take this last race for example the same way Hamilton had a bad weekend is the same way Bottas had a poor weekend at Baku.

I bet you anything if Rosberg was still at Merc Hamilton will not be as relaxed as he is right now with his poor showings.


You could be poor in the domination era and still qualify 2nd knowing if you win the 1st corner the race is won, you can be poor now and qualify 6th, hell of a difference. Hamilton qualifies 2nd in Canada, Bottas qualifies 2nd in Baku. In the domination era Bottas would have actually won both races with Hamilton having to pit early in Baku and the engine problems in Canada, that's the difference with no other cars involved.

How do you know Hamilton is relaxed? I would be interested to see how Rosberg would do this season, not including the DNF I suspect he would be around the same points as Bottas but we are not halfway yet.

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Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Another factor is about getting the Mercedes sorted to make best use of the tyres. Mercedes were slow to sort the car last year, then it was clearly the best car.

They have designed the car supposedly to make it less of a diva this year, yet they are struggling to sort it this year again. Maybe Rosberg would have been a plus factor in sorting the car earlier?

With the cars being more difficult to follow and pass, Qualifying is at least as important as last year. Hamilton made 2 bad mistakes in Canada, when he might have a car to take pole. They just need to improve enough to get pole at most circuits.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:23 am 
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At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:52 am 
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Invade wrote:
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.

I'm not so sure about that. Rosberg's image has benefited dramatically from having sat in a dominant car for years, but he hasn't always shone in races when the cars have been more equal. And I'll never forget how it took him nearly 3/4 of the race to get from 5th to 2nd in China in 2014, when he had a car that was massively faster than anything else. I don't see Bottas as being any inferior to Rosberg, tbh


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:54 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.

I'm not so sure about that. Rosberg's image has benefited dramatically from having sat in a dominant car for years, but he hasn't always shone in races when the cars have been more equal. And I'll never forget how it took him nearly 3/4 of the race to get from 5th to 2nd in China in 2014, when he had a car that was massively faster than anything else. I don't see Bottas as being any inferior to Rosberg, tbh



Bottas has shown no evidence of similar dogged spirit and mentality though to maximise himself and, without a better way to phrase it, push beyond his limits - or to at least engage in mind games and try to get under Hamilton's skin to eke out any edge where one could be found. It goes beyond the team operations which has gravitated more toward a 1-2 policy and to Bottas himself. I doubt Rosberg would have stood for it.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:57 am 
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Don't have stats to hand but also pretty sure that Rosberg had many more occasions where he didn't just beat Lewis, but smashed him in qualifying. Bottas tends to have an edge at best other than for rare occasions. Both can have terrible races and have poor pace - look at Bottas at the 2017 US GP... or even recently in Singapore.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:10 am 
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Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.

I'm not so sure about that. Rosberg's image has benefited dramatically from having sat in a dominant car for years, but he hasn't always shone in races when the cars have been more equal. And I'll never forget how it took him nearly 3/4 of the race to get from 5th to 2nd in China in 2014, when he had a car that was massively faster than anything else. I don't see Bottas as being any inferior to Rosberg, tbh



Bottas has shown no evidence of similar dogged spirit and mentality though to maximise himself and, without a better way to phrase it, push beyond his limits - or to at least engage in mind games and try to get under Hamilton's skin to eke out any edge where one could be found. It goes beyond the team operations which has gravitated more toward a 1-2 policy and to Bottas himself. I doubt Rosberg would have stood for it.

Difficult to say, really. I remember writing before Merc ever got their dominant car in 2014 that Rosberg was almost always anonymous in races because he never actually did anything of note. He was always a really fast qualifier, but often went backwards in the race and wasn't particularly impressive. It was only after 2014 that he started grabbing headlines and that was only because he was in a car that was in a class of its own. I also remember writing back in 2015 that it was only the car that saved him from qualifying embarrassment as the gap between him and Hamilton was often no better, and sometimes worse, than that between Kimi and Vettel, but everyone thought Kimi should leave F1 because he was ending up in the middle of the pack, while Rosberg stayed firmly in 2nd place because the car allowed him to recover easily from poor performances.

Bottas doesn't have the same level of machinery, which IMO is making him look a lot worse, relative to Hamilton, than Rosberg. But in reality I don't think there's a lot in it.

edit: and just in case you think I'm looking through rose-tinted glasses:

http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15&p=72693&hilit=rosberg+anonymous#p72693
http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3948&p=131041&hilit=rosberg+anonymous#p131041


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:21 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.

I'm not so sure about that. Rosberg's image has benefited dramatically from having sat in a dominant car for years, but he hasn't always shone in races when the cars have been more equal. And I'll never forget how it took him nearly 3/4 of the race to get from 5th to 2nd in China in 2014, when he had a car that was massively faster than anything else. I don't see Bottas as being any inferior to Rosberg, tbh



Bottas has shown no evidence of similar dogged spirit and mentality though to maximise himself and, without a better way to phrase it, push beyond his limits - or to at least engage in mind games and try to get under Hamilton's skin to eke out any edge where one could be found. It goes beyond the team operations which has gravitated more toward a 1-2 policy and to Bottas himself. I doubt Rosberg would have stood for it.

Difficult to say, really. I remember writing before Merc ever got their dominant car in 2014 that Rosberg was almost always anonymous in races because he never actually did anything of note. He was always a really fast qualifier, but often went backwards in the race and wasn't particularly impressive. It was only after 2014 that he started grabbing headlines and that was only because he was in a car that was in a class of its own. I also remember writing back in 2015 that it was only the car that saved him from qualifying embarrassment as the gap between him and Hamilton was often no better, and sometimes worse, than that between Kimi and Vettel, but everyone thought Kimi should leave F1 because he was ending up in the middle of the pack, while Rosberg stayed firmly in 2nd place because the car allowed him to recover easily from poor performances.

Bottas doesn't have the same level of machinery, which IMO is making him look a lot worse, relative to Hamilton, than Rosberg. But in reality I don't think there's a lot in it.


I agree with the general premise that Rosberg was flattered by the car and that there was a disconnect in the discussion with him vs Hamilton as against Kimi vs Vettel which didn't make a lot of sense. However, Rosberg did show an ability to get on top of his team-mate for substantial periods of time and I've yet to see a similar wave of form from Bottas where he at least puts Hamilton in his place for more than just fleeting moments. It's possible that Bottas is more stable than Rosberg but when it comes to beating the likes of Hamilton I think he lacks an edge mentally and also that he's much less likely to produce a wave of form worthy of a WDC. Rosberg did sometimes have Hamilton beat overall in qualifying over long periods of time and built up a good streak or two like beating Hamilton in qualifying (track position of course being very vital) 6 times in a row. It did coincide with changes made to the Mercedes car after Singapore which Hamilton didn't like and was also close to the time where the general PSI for tyres was raised, but still. Overall, it seems to me Bottas is generally a bit slower than Rosberg and so at the bare minimum I have to at least give Rosberg the advantage. But yes, Rosberg got bludgeoned by Hamilton in 2015 for the most part as much or more than Bottas has been bested by Hamilton in 2017 or 2018.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:09 pm 
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Rosberg has beaten Hamilton on racetracks where Hamilton shined for some years, such as Spa, Monza, Suzuka. We have nothing alike from Bottas to compare them.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:15 pm 
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Still think Rosberg had a big advantage over Bottas that many don't seem to be considering. When Hamilton joined, Rosberg had been with the team for 2 years. And Hamilton was new to it, so basically Rosberg had an advantage over Hamilton. When Bottas joined, Hamilton had been was in his 5th year with them. Basically showing he was very experienced and Bottas was totally new. One reason why I think some of the comparisons are not always that fair. Bottas has had nearly two years now, but if we are comparing him to Rosberg, lets give him another year to see if he still is like he is now. I still think he had a small chance to improve more. More so than Hamilton will.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:40 am 
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Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.

I'm not so sure about that. Rosberg's image has benefited dramatically from having sat in a dominant car for years, but he hasn't always shone in races when the cars have been more equal. And I'll never forget how it took him nearly 3/4 of the race to get from 5th to 2nd in China in 2014, when he had a car that was massively faster than anything else. I don't see Bottas as being any inferior to Rosberg, tbh



Bottas has shown no evidence of similar dogged spirit and mentality though to maximise himself and, without a better way to phrase it, push beyond his limits - or to at least engage in mind games and try to get under Hamilton's skin to eke out any edge where one could be found. It goes beyond the team operations which has gravitated more toward a 1-2 policy and to Bottas himself. I doubt Rosberg would have stood for it.

Rosberg got under Hamilton's skin basically by using foul play and was on his way out at Mercedes before Hamilton himself threatened to quit the team and then they realised they needed to keep Rosberg just in case, if Rosberg was getting beat by Hamilton these past 2 years but didn't want to help the team then he would have got dropped.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:47 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.

I'm not so sure about that. Rosberg's image has benefited dramatically from having sat in a dominant car for years, but he hasn't always shone in races when the cars have been more equal. And I'll never forget how it took him nearly 3/4 of the race to get from 5th to 2nd in China in 2014, when he had a car that was massively faster than anything else. I don't see Bottas as being any inferior to Rosberg, tbh



Bottas has shown no evidence of similar dogged spirit and mentality though to maximise himself and, without a better way to phrase it, push beyond his limits - or to at least engage in mind games and try to get under Hamilton's skin to eke out any edge where one could be found. It goes beyond the team operations which has gravitated more toward a 1-2 policy and to Bottas himself. I doubt Rosberg would have stood for it.

Rosberg got under Hamilton's skin basically by using foul play and was on his way out at Mercedes before Hamilton himself threatened to quit the team and then they realised they needed to keep Rosberg just in case, if Rosberg was getting beat by Hamilton these past 2 years but didn't want to help the team then he would have got dropped.
Hamilton was just as foul as Rosberg was in their time together. Let's not pretend it was all one way traffic


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:44 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.

I'm not so sure about that. Rosberg's image has benefited dramatically from having sat in a dominant car for years, but he hasn't always shone in races when the cars have been more equal. And I'll never forget how it took him nearly 3/4 of the race to get from 5th to 2nd in China in 2014, when he had a car that was massively faster than anything else. I don't see Bottas as being any inferior to Rosberg, tbh



Bottas has shown no evidence of similar dogged spirit and mentality though to maximise himself and, without a better way to phrase it, push beyond his limits - or to at least engage in mind games and try to get under Hamilton's skin to eke out any edge where one could be found. It goes beyond the team operations which has gravitated more toward a 1-2 policy and to Bottas himself. I doubt Rosberg would have stood for it.

Rosberg got under Hamilton's skin basically by using foul play and was on his way out at Mercedes before Hamilton himself threatened to quit the team and then they realised they needed to keep Rosberg just in case, if Rosberg was getting beat by Hamilton these past 2 years but didn't want to help the team then he would have got dropped.
Hamilton was just as foul as Rosberg was in their time together. Let's not pretend it was all one way traffic

Hamilton may be forcible at times but Rosberg was instrumental with the major incidents, let's agree to disagree with things relevant to Hamilton.

In respect to Bottas we will not see him parking his car to protect a pole position.

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2013: 5th Place
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2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:40 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.

I'm not so sure about that. Rosberg's image has benefited dramatically from having sat in a dominant car for years, but he hasn't always shone in races when the cars have been more equal. And I'll never forget how it took him nearly 3/4 of the race to get from 5th to 2nd in China in 2014, when he had a car that was massively faster than anything else. I don't see Bottas as being any inferior to Rosberg, tbh



Bottas has shown no evidence of similar dogged spirit and mentality though to maximise himself and, without a better way to phrase it, push beyond his limits - or to at least engage in mind games and try to get under Hamilton's skin to eke out any edge where one could be found. It goes beyond the team operations which has gravitated more toward a 1-2 policy and to Bottas himself. I doubt Rosberg would have stood for it.

Difficult to say, really. I remember writing before Merc ever got their dominant car in 2014 that Rosberg was almost always anonymous in races because he never actually did anything of note. He was always a really fast qualifier, but often went backwards in the race and wasn't particularly impressive. It was only after 2014 that he started grabbing headlines and that was only because he was in a car that was in a class of its own. I also remember writing back in 2015 that it was only the car that saved him from qualifying embarrassment as the gap between him and Hamilton was often no better, and sometimes worse, than that between Kimi and Vettel, but everyone thought Kimi should leave F1 because he was ending up in the middle of the pack, while Rosberg stayed firmly in 2nd place because the car allowed him to recover easily from poor performances.

Bottas doesn't have the same level of machinery, which IMO is making him look a lot worse, relative to Hamilton, than Rosberg. But in reality I don't think there's a lot in it.


I agree with the general premise that Rosberg was flattered by the car and that there was a disconnect in the discussion with him vs Hamilton as against Kimi vs Vettel which didn't make a lot of sense. However, Rosberg did show an ability to get on top of his team-mate for substantial periods of time and I've yet to see a similar wave of form from Bottas where he at least puts Hamilton in his place for more than just fleeting moments. It's possible that Bottas is more stable than Rosberg but when it comes to beating the likes of Hamilton I think he lacks an edge mentally and also that he's much less likely to produce a wave of form worthy of a WDC. Rosberg did sometimes have Hamilton beat overall in qualifying over long periods of time and built up a good streak or two like beating Hamilton in qualifying (track position of course being very vital) 6 times in a row. It did coincide with changes made to the Mercedes car after Singapore which Hamilton didn't like and was also close to the time where the general PSI for tyres was raised, but still. Overall, it seems to me Bottas is generally a bit slower than Rosberg and so at the bare minimum I have to at least give Rosberg the advantage. But yes, Rosberg got bludgeoned by Hamilton in 2015 for the most part as much or more than Bottas has been bested by Hamilton in 2017 or 2018.



That is why I believe one of Rosberg’s main strengths was car set up. That guy was so knowledgeable about that stuff he made lewis look bad on a few occasions for extended periods like you said. I cant say the same for Bottas, who seems to struggle with setup far too often.


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