planetf1.com

It is currently Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:33 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic

Which of these fine pilots is the best?
Valtteri Bottas 14%  14%  [ 10 ]
Nico Rosberg 86%  86%  [ 64 ]
Total votes : 74
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14264
KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking back to the tail end of last season, Bottas has really matched Hamilton over the last 9 races. Did Rosberg ever have a run against him that good in comparison after 2013?

Japan 2015 until Spain 2016 was quite a good run for him. That's 11 races I think.


Mexico - Russia you mean? Surely? Hamilton won the three races before that Japan, Russia, USA. That would be 7 races.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2294
As we saw at Baku, the final result doesn’t always tell the whole story.

Russia 2015 - Rosberg was leading before his car failed

USA 2015 - Rosberg was clearly faster than Hamilton but the SC slashed his 10 second lead. He did make a mistake but that doesn’t change his underlying pace advantage that race.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14264
KingVoid wrote:
As we saw at Baku, the final result doesn’t always tell the whole story.

Russia 2015 - Rosberg was leading before his car failed

USA 2015 - Rosberg was clearly faster than Hamilton but the SC slashed his 10 second lead. He did make a mistake but that doesn’t change his underlying pace advantage that race.


Yes it's all subjective of course. I guess my point would be that currently Bottas looks as good as Rosberg ever did. The question is can he maintain it?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 3092
mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking back to the tail end of last season, Bottas has really matched Hamilton over the last 9 races. Did Rosberg ever have a run against him that good in comparison after 2013?


I know the direct comparison is between Bottas and Rosberg against Hamilton but Bottas this season has had to worry about 2 cars which have been faster so far and 2 which can be match or better like Monaco. Rosberg races are dependent on beating his teammate at turn 1, I just think they are very different situations to be in.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 9392
F1_Ernie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking back to the tail end of last season, Bottas has really matched Hamilton over the last 9 races. Did Rosberg ever have a run against him that good in comparison after 2013?


I know the direct comparison is between Bottas and Rosberg against Hamilton but Bottas this season has had to worry about 2 cars which have been faster so far and 2 which can be match or better like Monaco. Rosberg races are dependent on beating his teammate at turn 1, I just think they are very different situations to be in.

That's a good point but it can also work in his favour as Hamilton can sometimes be a bit anonymous when he's driving in the midfield.

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 1584
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
As we saw at Baku, the final result doesn’t always tell the whole story.

Russia 2015 - Rosberg was leading before his car failed

USA 2015 - Rosberg was clearly faster than Hamilton but the SC slashed his 10 second lead. He did make a mistake but that doesn’t change his underlying pace advantage that race.


Yes it's all subjective of course. I guess my point would be that currently Bottas looks as good as Rosberg ever did. The question is can he maintain it?


Subjective plus a lot of guessing in some cases. There are many things we cannot tell would or wouldn't have happened. When Hamilton outbraked himself in Mexico and drove straight from turn 1 to turn 3 - would he have recieved a penalty if the Championship battle wouldn't have ended then?

Bottas is looking good compared to Hamilton at the moment. If it turns out that Hamilton can get back to how he and the car were performing in Spain, then the picture changes, but based on the season so far, Bottas is comparing well to Hamilton.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 3092
Covalent wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking back to the tail end of last season, Bottas has really matched Hamilton over the last 9 races. Did Rosberg ever have a run against him that good in comparison after 2013?


I know the direct comparison is between Bottas and Rosberg against Hamilton but Bottas this season has had to worry about 2 cars which have been faster so far and 2 which can be match or better like Monaco. Rosberg races are dependent on beating his teammate at turn 1, I just think they are very different situations to be in.

That's a good point but it can also work in his favour as Hamilton can sometimes be a bit anonymous when he's driving in the midfield.


True, tbh I think it's hard for any driver this year who find themselves lower down the grid, overtaking is non existent between the top cars, also there is nothing you can do with strategy. Qualifying is even more important than ever.

Bottas could be a tenth slower than his teammate and find himself 4th, 5th or 6th and he wouldn't have the advantage of a much faster car, Rosberg or Hamilton could be well off their teammates, qualify second and win the race at turn 1. I do think both drivers find themselves in very different situations.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1701
F1_Ernie wrote:
Covalent wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking back to the tail end of last season, Bottas has really matched Hamilton over the last 9 races. Did Rosberg ever have a run against him that good in comparison after 2013?


I know the direct comparison is between Bottas and Rosberg against Hamilton but Bottas this season has had to worry about 2 cars which have been faster so far and 2 which can be match or better like Monaco. Rosberg races are dependent on beating his teammate at turn 1, I just think they are very different situations to be in.

That's a good point but it can also work in his favour as Hamilton can sometimes be a bit anonymous when he's driving in the midfield.


True, tbh I think it's hard for any driver this year who find themselves lower down the grid, overtaking is non existent between the top cars, also there is nothing you can do with strategy. Qualifying is even more important than ever.

Bottas could be a tenth slower than his teammate and find himself 4th, 5th or 6th and he wouldn't have the advantage of a much faster car, Rosberg or Hamilton could be well off their teammates, qualify second and win the race at turn 1. I do think both drivers find themselves in very different situations.


This is false equivalency here there is a difference between being poor and being a tenth slower.

Take this last race for example the same way Hamilton had a bad weekend is the same way Bottas had a poor weekend at Baku.

I bet you anything if Rosberg was still at Merc Hamilton will not be as relaxed as he is right now with his poor showings.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 3092
Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Covalent wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Looking back to the tail end of last season, Bottas has really matched Hamilton over the last 9 races. Did Rosberg ever have a run against him that good in comparison after 2013?


I know the direct comparison is between Bottas and Rosberg against Hamilton but Bottas this season has had to worry about 2 cars which have been faster so far and 2 which can be match or better like Monaco. Rosberg races are dependent on beating his teammate at turn 1, I just think they are very different situations to be in.

That's a good point but it can also work in his favour as Hamilton can sometimes be a bit anonymous when he's driving in the midfield.


True, tbh I think it's hard for any driver this year who find themselves lower down the grid, overtaking is non existent between the top cars, also there is nothing you can do with strategy. Qualifying is even more important than ever.

Bottas could be a tenth slower than his teammate and find himself 4th, 5th or 6th and he wouldn't have the advantage of a much faster car, Rosberg or Hamilton could be well off their teammates, qualify second and win the race at turn 1. I do think both drivers find themselves in very different situations.


This is false equivalency here there is a difference between being poor and being a tenth slower.

Take this last race for example the same way Hamilton had a bad weekend is the same way Bottas had a poor weekend at Baku.

I bet you anything if Rosberg was still at Merc Hamilton will not be as relaxed as he is right now with his poor showings.


You could be poor in the domination era and still qualify 2nd knowing if you win the 1st corner the race is won, you can be poor now and qualify 6th, hell of a difference. Hamilton qualifies 2nd in Canada, Bottas qualifies 2nd in Baku. In the domination era Bottas would have actually won both races with Hamilton having to pit early in Baku and the engine problems in Canada, that's the difference with no other cars involved.

How do you know Hamilton is relaxed? I would be interested to see how Rosberg would do this season, not including the DNF I suspect he would be around the same points as Bottas but we are not halfway yet.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 1584
Another factor is about getting the Mercedes sorted to make best use of the tyres. Mercedes were slow to sort the car last year, then it was clearly the best car.

They have designed the car supposedly to make it less of a diva this year, yet they are struggling to sort it this year again. Maybe Rosberg would have been a plus factor in sorting the car earlier?

With the cars being more difficult to follow and pass, Qualifying is at least as important as last year. Hamilton made 2 bad mistakes in Canada, when he might have a car to take pole. They just need to improve enough to get pole at most circuits.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 1941
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23915
Invade wrote:
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.

I'm not so sure about that. Rosberg's image has benefited dramatically from having sat in a dominant car for years, but he hasn't always shone in races when the cars have been more equal. And I'll never forget how it took him nearly 3/4 of the race to get from 5th to 2nd in China in 2014, when he had a car that was massively faster than anything else. I don't see Bottas as being any inferior to Rosberg, tbh


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 1941
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.

I'm not so sure about that. Rosberg's image has benefited dramatically from having sat in a dominant car for years, but he hasn't always shone in races when the cars have been more equal. And I'll never forget how it took him nearly 3/4 of the race to get from 5th to 2nd in China in 2014, when he had a car that was massively faster than anything else. I don't see Bottas as being any inferior to Rosberg, tbh



Bottas has shown no evidence of similar dogged spirit and mentality though to maximise himself and, without a better way to phrase it, push beyond his limits - or to at least engage in mind games and try to get under Hamilton's skin to eke out any edge where one could be found. It goes beyond the team operations which has gravitated more toward a 1-2 policy and to Bottas himself. I doubt Rosberg would have stood for it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 1941
Don't have stats to hand but also pretty sure that Rosberg had many more occasions where he didn't just beat Lewis, but smashed him in qualifying. Bottas tends to have an edge at best other than for rare occasions. Both can have terrible races and have poor pace - look at Bottas at the 2017 US GP... or even recently in Singapore.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:10 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23915
Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.

I'm not so sure about that. Rosberg's image has benefited dramatically from having sat in a dominant car for years, but he hasn't always shone in races when the cars have been more equal. And I'll never forget how it took him nearly 3/4 of the race to get from 5th to 2nd in China in 2014, when he had a car that was massively faster than anything else. I don't see Bottas as being any inferior to Rosberg, tbh



Bottas has shown no evidence of similar dogged spirit and mentality though to maximise himself and, without a better way to phrase it, push beyond his limits - or to at least engage in mind games and try to get under Hamilton's skin to eke out any edge where one could be found. It goes beyond the team operations which has gravitated more toward a 1-2 policy and to Bottas himself. I doubt Rosberg would have stood for it.

Difficult to say, really. I remember writing before Merc ever got their dominant car in 2014 that Rosberg was almost always anonymous in races because he never actually did anything of note. He was always a really fast qualifier, but often went backwards in the race and wasn't particularly impressive. It was only after 2014 that he started grabbing headlines and that was only because he was in a car that was in a class of its own. I also remember writing back in 2015 that it was only the car that saved him from qualifying embarrassment as the gap between him and Hamilton was often no better, and sometimes worse, than that between Kimi and Vettel, but everyone thought Kimi should leave F1 because he was ending up in the middle of the pack, while Rosberg stayed firmly in 2nd place because the car allowed him to recover easily from poor performances.

Bottas doesn't have the same level of machinery, which IMO is making him look a lot worse, relative to Hamilton, than Rosberg. But in reality I don't think there's a lot in it.

edit: and just in case you think I'm looking through rose-tinted glasses:

http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15&p=72693&hilit=rosberg+anonymous#p72693
http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3948&p=131041&hilit=rosberg+anonymous#p131041


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 1941
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.

I'm not so sure about that. Rosberg's image has benefited dramatically from having sat in a dominant car for years, but he hasn't always shone in races when the cars have been more equal. And I'll never forget how it took him nearly 3/4 of the race to get from 5th to 2nd in China in 2014, when he had a car that was massively faster than anything else. I don't see Bottas as being any inferior to Rosberg, tbh



Bottas has shown no evidence of similar dogged spirit and mentality though to maximise himself and, without a better way to phrase it, push beyond his limits - or to at least engage in mind games and try to get under Hamilton's skin to eke out any edge where one could be found. It goes beyond the team operations which has gravitated more toward a 1-2 policy and to Bottas himself. I doubt Rosberg would have stood for it.

Difficult to say, really. I remember writing before Merc ever got their dominant car in 2014 that Rosberg was almost always anonymous in races because he never actually did anything of note. He was always a really fast qualifier, but often went backwards in the race and wasn't particularly impressive. It was only after 2014 that he started grabbing headlines and that was only because he was in a car that was in a class of its own. I also remember writing back in 2015 that it was only the car that saved him from qualifying embarrassment as the gap between him and Hamilton was often no better, and sometimes worse, than that between Kimi and Vettel, but everyone thought Kimi should leave F1 because he was ending up in the middle of the pack, while Rosberg stayed firmly in 2nd place because the car allowed him to recover easily from poor performances.

Bottas doesn't have the same level of machinery, which IMO is making him look a lot worse, relative to Hamilton, than Rosberg. But in reality I don't think there's a lot in it.


I agree with the general premise that Rosberg was flattered by the car and that there was a disconnect in the discussion with him vs Hamilton as against Kimi vs Vettel which didn't make a lot of sense. However, Rosberg did show an ability to get on top of his team-mate for substantial periods of time and I've yet to see a similar wave of form from Bottas where he at least puts Hamilton in his place for more than just fleeting moments. It's possible that Bottas is more stable than Rosberg but when it comes to beating the likes of Hamilton I think he lacks an edge mentally and also that he's much less likely to produce a wave of form worthy of a WDC. Rosberg did sometimes have Hamilton beat overall in qualifying over long periods of time and built up a good streak or two like beating Hamilton in qualifying (track position of course being very vital) 6 times in a row. It did coincide with changes made to the Mercedes car after Singapore which Hamilton didn't like and was also close to the time where the general PSI for tyres was raised, but still. Overall, it seems to me Bottas is generally a bit slower than Rosberg and so at the bare minimum I have to at least give Rosberg the advantage. But yes, Rosberg got bludgeoned by Hamilton in 2015 for the most part as much or more than Bottas has been bested by Hamilton in 2017 or 2018.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 4539
Rosberg has beaten Hamilton on racetracks where Hamilton shined for some years, such as Spa, Monza, Suzuka. We have nothing alike from Bottas to compare them.

_________________
The end is near


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 1520
Still think Rosberg had a big advantage over Bottas that many don't seem to be considering. When Hamilton joined, Rosberg had been with the team for 2 years. And Hamilton was new to it, so basically Rosberg had an advantage over Hamilton. When Bottas joined, Hamilton had been was in his 5th year with them. Basically showing he was very experienced and Bottas was totally new. One reason why I think some of the comparisons are not always that fair. Bottas has had nearly two years now, but if we are comparing him to Rosberg, lets give him another year to see if he still is like he is now. I still think he had a small chance to improve more. More so than Hamilton will.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28701
Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.

I'm not so sure about that. Rosberg's image has benefited dramatically from having sat in a dominant car for years, but he hasn't always shone in races when the cars have been more equal. And I'll never forget how it took him nearly 3/4 of the race to get from 5th to 2nd in China in 2014, when he had a car that was massively faster than anything else. I don't see Bottas as being any inferior to Rosberg, tbh



Bottas has shown no evidence of similar dogged spirit and mentality though to maximise himself and, without a better way to phrase it, push beyond his limits - or to at least engage in mind games and try to get under Hamilton's skin to eke out any edge where one could be found. It goes beyond the team operations which has gravitated more toward a 1-2 policy and to Bottas himself. I doubt Rosberg would have stood for it.

Rosberg got under Hamilton's skin basically by using foul play and was on his way out at Mercedes before Hamilton himself threatened to quit the team and then they realised they needed to keep Rosberg just in case, if Rosberg was getting beat by Hamilton these past 2 years but didn't want to help the team then he would have got dropped.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23915
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.

I'm not so sure about that. Rosberg's image has benefited dramatically from having sat in a dominant car for years, but he hasn't always shone in races when the cars have been more equal. And I'll never forget how it took him nearly 3/4 of the race to get from 5th to 2nd in China in 2014, when he had a car that was massively faster than anything else. I don't see Bottas as being any inferior to Rosberg, tbh



Bottas has shown no evidence of similar dogged spirit and mentality though to maximise himself and, without a better way to phrase it, push beyond his limits - or to at least engage in mind games and try to get under Hamilton's skin to eke out any edge where one could be found. It goes beyond the team operations which has gravitated more toward a 1-2 policy and to Bottas himself. I doubt Rosberg would have stood for it.

Rosberg got under Hamilton's skin basically by using foul play and was on his way out at Mercedes before Hamilton himself threatened to quit the team and then they realised they needed to keep Rosberg just in case, if Rosberg was getting beat by Hamilton these past 2 years but didn't want to help the team then he would have got dropped.
Hamilton was just as foul as Rosberg was in their time together. Let's not pretend it was all one way traffic


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28701
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.

I'm not so sure about that. Rosberg's image has benefited dramatically from having sat in a dominant car for years, but he hasn't always shone in races when the cars have been more equal. And I'll never forget how it took him nearly 3/4 of the race to get from 5th to 2nd in China in 2014, when he had a car that was massively faster than anything else. I don't see Bottas as being any inferior to Rosberg, tbh



Bottas has shown no evidence of similar dogged spirit and mentality though to maximise himself and, without a better way to phrase it, push beyond his limits - or to at least engage in mind games and try to get under Hamilton's skin to eke out any edge where one could be found. It goes beyond the team operations which has gravitated more toward a 1-2 policy and to Bottas himself. I doubt Rosberg would have stood for it.

Rosberg got under Hamilton's skin basically by using foul play and was on his way out at Mercedes before Hamilton himself threatened to quit the team and then they realised they needed to keep Rosberg just in case, if Rosberg was getting beat by Hamilton these past 2 years but didn't want to help the team then he would have got dropped.
Hamilton was just as foul as Rosberg was in their time together. Let's not pretend it was all one way traffic

Hamilton may be forcible at times but Rosberg was instrumental with the major incidents, let's agree to disagree with things relevant to Hamilton.

In respect to Bottas we will not see him parking his car to protect a pole position.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3477
Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
At this point it seems to me that the difference between Hamilton and Rosberg is about as large as the difference between Rosberg and Bottas.

I'm not so sure about that. Rosberg's image has benefited dramatically from having sat in a dominant car for years, but he hasn't always shone in races when the cars have been more equal. And I'll never forget how it took him nearly 3/4 of the race to get from 5th to 2nd in China in 2014, when he had a car that was massively faster than anything else. I don't see Bottas as being any inferior to Rosberg, tbh



Bottas has shown no evidence of similar dogged spirit and mentality though to maximise himself and, without a better way to phrase it, push beyond his limits - or to at least engage in mind games and try to get under Hamilton's skin to eke out any edge where one could be found. It goes beyond the team operations which has gravitated more toward a 1-2 policy and to Bottas himself. I doubt Rosberg would have stood for it.

Difficult to say, really. I remember writing before Merc ever got their dominant car in 2014 that Rosberg was almost always anonymous in races because he never actually did anything of note. He was always a really fast qualifier, but often went backwards in the race and wasn't particularly impressive. It was only after 2014 that he started grabbing headlines and that was only because he was in a car that was in a class of its own. I also remember writing back in 2015 that it was only the car that saved him from qualifying embarrassment as the gap between him and Hamilton was often no better, and sometimes worse, than that between Kimi and Vettel, but everyone thought Kimi should leave F1 because he was ending up in the middle of the pack, while Rosberg stayed firmly in 2nd place because the car allowed him to recover easily from poor performances.

Bottas doesn't have the same level of machinery, which IMO is making him look a lot worse, relative to Hamilton, than Rosberg. But in reality I don't think there's a lot in it.


I agree with the general premise that Rosberg was flattered by the car and that there was a disconnect in the discussion with him vs Hamilton as against Kimi vs Vettel which didn't make a lot of sense. However, Rosberg did show an ability to get on top of his team-mate for substantial periods of time and I've yet to see a similar wave of form from Bottas where he at least puts Hamilton in his place for more than just fleeting moments. It's possible that Bottas is more stable than Rosberg but when it comes to beating the likes of Hamilton I think he lacks an edge mentally and also that he's much less likely to produce a wave of form worthy of a WDC. Rosberg did sometimes have Hamilton beat overall in qualifying over long periods of time and built up a good streak or two like beating Hamilton in qualifying (track position of course being very vital) 6 times in a row. It did coincide with changes made to the Mercedes car after Singapore which Hamilton didn't like and was also close to the time where the general PSI for tyres was raised, but still. Overall, it seems to me Bottas is generally a bit slower than Rosberg and so at the bare minimum I have to at least give Rosberg the advantage. But yes, Rosberg got bludgeoned by Hamilton in 2015 for the most part as much or more than Bottas has been bested by Hamilton in 2017 or 2018.



That is why I believe one of Rosberg’s main strengths was car set up. That guy was so knowledgeable about that stuff he made lewis look bad on a few occasions for extended periods like you said. I cant say the same for Bottas, who seems to struggle with setup far too often.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:01 pm
Posts: 602
Is it really a fair comparison given Hamilton probably developed a lot too being in such an intense battle with his teammate for so long? With both vying for the title in the same car, working on setup and fuel/tyre management to eek out those tenths would have forced both to develop in that time. Bottas will have to do the same to avoid being left behind although easier said then done when Mercedes are focused on Hamilton's battle with Seb. Not sure it is even fair to compare Nico and Valteri given the different circumstances. Hamilton has to be a much stronger driver for his time competing with Alonso, Button and Rosberg.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 pm
Posts: 350
Rosberg was in a way unfortunate in that Hamilton's fallout with Mclaren almost certainly robbed him of the 2014 and 2015 titles. That frustration might explain his win at all costs mentality in 2016. He also had to be good enough to back it up and to be fair he was a very good and consistent driver.

But yes I agree that Mercedes being in a class all of their own often rescued him. He performed to the car's capability but was rarely one to drive beyond it. He be more competitive than Bottas today but dragging the Merc ahead of the Ferrari's as Hamilton did at Singapore and Monza would likely be beyond him.

Another season of Hamilton vs Rosberg might well have allowed Ferrari the title in 2017.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 1520
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Rosberg was in a way unfortunate in that Hamilton's fallout with Mclaren almost certainly robbed him of the 2014 and 2015 titles. That frustration might explain his win at all costs mentality in 2016. He also had to be good enough to back it up and to be fair he was a very good and consistent driver.

But yes I agree that Mercedes being in a class all of their own often rescued him. He performed to the car's capability but was rarely one to drive beyond it. He be more competitive than Bottas today but dragging the Merc ahead of the Ferrari's as Hamilton did at Singapore and Monza would likely be beyond him.

Another season of Hamilton vs Rosberg might well have allowed Ferrari the title in 2017.

good point. As I think Hamilton and Rosberg had several clashes which will have effected the championship way more if it wasn't for the fact that they were a dominant team. For the Spain rosberg and Hamilton clash cost the team 43 points easily. I just don't see this sort of incident happening with Hamilton and Bottas. If it did cost them a 1 -2 finish this year, Ferrari would currently be ahead by 6 points. Despite the fact I think Rosberg is slightly stronger overall than Bottas, I think the current line up at mercedes is very likely better for the team and championship.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:31 am
Posts: 2088
As long as Bottas is willing to play second fiddle to Lewis, he will never be able to match Rosberg. That was the difference maker. It was easier for Rosberg because he was with the team first. He had a right to make demands and was willing to stand up to Merc and Lewis. I am not sure whether Bottas has the ability or standing in the team to do that. Some drivers, like Max, wouldn't hear of playing second fiddle - not for a minute. I don't think Bottas will ever be that, but I think he could emulate Nico, if he had faith that he could do so and remain on the team.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 1520
bourbon19 wrote:
As long as Bottas is willing to play second fiddle to Lewis, he will never be able to match Rosberg. That was the difference maker. It was easier for Rosberg because he was with the team first. He had a right to make demands and was willing to stand up to Merc and Lewis. I am not sure whether Bottas has the ability or standing in the team to do that. Some drivers, like Max, wouldn't hear of playing second fiddle - not for a minute. I don't think Bottas will ever be that, but I think he could emulate Nico, if he had faith that he could do so and remain on the team.

I think what hurt Bottas a lot this year was that lost win in Azerbaijan. That will have put him in the lead of the championship. If he had one there, I wonder if his performance will have been any different after it? I do think Bottas's performance possibly does drop a bit when he's had a bit of bad luck.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14264
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
As long as Bottas is willing to play second fiddle to Lewis, he will never be able to match Rosberg. That was the difference maker. It was easier for Rosberg because he was with the team first. He had a right to make demands and was willing to stand up to Merc and Lewis. I am not sure whether Bottas has the ability or standing in the team to do that. Some drivers, like Max, wouldn't hear of playing second fiddle - not for a minute. I don't think Bottas will ever be that, but I think he could emulate Nico, if he had faith that he could do so and remain on the team.

I think what hurt Bottas a lot this year was that lost win in Azerbaijan. That will have put him in the lead of the championship. If he had one there, I wonder if his performance will have been any different after it? I do think Bottas's performance possibly does drop a bit when he's had a bit of bad luck.


He was dreadfully unlucky up until France really where he was actually performing well. Since then he seems to have relaxed down into his number 2 role. He'll need to shake that off for the start of next year with the spectre of Ocon hanging over him.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5607
bourbon19 wrote:
As long as Bottas is willing to play second fiddle to Lewis, he will never be able to match Rosberg. That was the difference maker. It was easier for Rosberg because he was with the team first. He had a right to make demands and was willing to stand up to Merc and Lewis. I am not sure whether Bottas has the ability or standing in the team to do that. Some drivers, like Max, wouldn't hear of playing second fiddle - not for a minute. I don't think Bottas will ever be that, but I think he could emulate Nico, if he had faith that he could do so and remain on the team.

I don't think he's the same caliber of driver as Nico is. He's not as close to Lewis in raw pace as Nico was and Valteri's race pace is substantially worse as well. In fact Valteri's race pace is nothing special most of the time. He has a strong race here and there but generally he's only exceptional on Saturdays. I do think he's one of the quicker guys in F1 over a single lap but he's not on Rosberg's level as an overall performer.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am
Posts: 747
I was on the fence for a while and after 2017 I thought Bottas could push on in 2018 and at least be at Rosbergs level. It was a solid start considering it was a new team etc. Now having seen nearly 2 full seasons, its clear now that Rosberg > Bottas.

Bottas is decent on his day and solid enough but once again in the second half of the year he has been heavily beaten by Hamilton. After a promising first 3-4 races this year, Bottas' 2018 has been a bit of a disaster. I think his 2017 might actually be stronger, although he did have the luxury of a car advantage in 2017.

A similar pattern to last year though where Hamilton took 3-4 races to warm to the car and then once happy Bottas at times found himself a long way back.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2294
Bottas doesn’t seem to understand these Pirelli tyres that well. He has so many races where his race pace is nonexistent and yet somehow he’s chewing through his tyres quicker than anyone else, it’s baffling.

Bahrain 2017, Malaysia 2017, USA 2017, Singapore 2018 and USA 2018 are some of the “worst” examples of this.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:29 am
Posts: 1983
Rosberg > Vettel > Bottas.

Rosberg generally performed in the same league as Schumacher and Hamilton and beat them both over at least one season in points. Rosberg was quicker than Bottas and more aggressive.

_________________
Kimi: "Come on, get the McLaren out of the way!”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:19 am
Posts: 988
It doesn't really looks like Bottas and Rosberg had the same role in the Merc political game?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28701
Johnson wrote:
I was on the fence for a while and after 2017 I thought Bottas could push on in 2018 and at least be at Rosbergs level. It was a solid start considering it was a new team etc. Now having seen nearly 2 full seasons, its clear now that Rosberg > Bottas.

Bottas is decent on his day and solid enough but once again in the second half of the year he has been heavily beaten by Hamilton. After a promising first 3-4 races this year, Bottas' 2018 has been a bit of a disaster. I think his 2017 might actually be stronger, although he did have the luxury of a car advantage in 2017.

A similar pattern to last year though where Hamilton took 3-4 races to warm to the car and then once happy Bottas at times found himself a long way back.

Like yourself I've hung back on this to give Bottas a chance but he's not looking to be quite as quick as Rosberg, this is not entirely scientific but as a rough overview I would say:-

Hamilton>1 tenth>Rosberg>1 tenth>Bottas

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:47 pm
Posts: 3099
pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I was on the fence for a while and after 2017 I thought Bottas could push on in 2018 and at least be at Rosbergs level. It was a solid start considering it was a new team etc. Now having seen nearly 2 full seasons, its clear now that Rosberg > Bottas.

Bottas is decent on his day and solid enough but once again in the second half of the year he has been heavily beaten by Hamilton. After a promising first 3-4 races this year, Bottas' 2018 has been a bit of a disaster. I think his 2017 might actually be stronger, although he did have the luxury of a car advantage in 2017.

A similar pattern to last year though where Hamilton took 3-4 races to warm to the car and then once happy Bottas at times found himself a long way back.

Like yourself I've hung back on this to give Bottas a chance but he's not looking to be quite as quick as Rosberg, this is not entirely scientific but as a rough overview I would say:-

Hamilton>1 tenth>Rosberg>1 tenth>Bottas


Yeah, I'd echo those thoughts. I did expect him to be closer to Lewis this year, obviously not equal but certainly benefitting from having had a year at Mercedes to settle. For a little while at the start of the season it seemed like that might actually be the case, and I know some of it is down to misfortune and then team orders, but it's becoming harder and harder to argue a case that Bottas would ever be anything beyond a number two driver at a top team.

I suppose one thing that might be skewing what we're seeing slightly is that Nico and Lewis were largely untroubled by the cars behind them, whereas Ferrari have got a lot closer to Mercedes during Bottas' time at the team than they ever did in 2014/15/16. During those years, on weekends where Hamilton (or even Rosberg, for that matter) had more of an advantage over the other, because Mercedes were so far ahead it meant the slower driver was still quick enough to finish 2nd if nothing went wrong. Bottas doesn't necessarily have that luxury as being three/four tenths down on Lewis can result in a Ferrari and even a Red Bull ending up ahead of him. I do think that Rosberg was closer to Lewis than Valtteri is (their qualifying H2H backs that up, for instance) but I also feel like Mercedes' performance relative to the rest of the field would've flattered Rosberg slightly, whilst simultaneously exaggerating how far Bottas is actually behind.

_________________
Pick 10 | 1st x3, 2nd x3, 3rd x7
2018: 5th | 2017: 6th | 2016: 8th | 2015: 2nd | 2014: 15th | 2013: 17th | 2012: 11th


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 7:23 pm
Posts: 331
The fact that Lewis still can't stand Rosberg today, is enough for me to think Nico was good enough.

Lewis had to really work for it during that period... And Nico was instrumental in making Lewis a better driver and the same thing can be said the other way around.

I still look at the reviews of 2014 2015 and 2016. Even though it was Merc vs Merc, the battle between them was crazy. Looking back, it was much more intense than the fight with Ferrari.

PS: About those mind games, there were definitely some, but not to the extent that Hamilton is claiming. Lewis wanted a bit of drama, and wanted to have the "glamour" of a rivalry like Prost and Senna. But he never imagined it would be that tough mentally. And when he finally got it, he immediately started complaining.

I still doubt that he can handle it very well when things don't go his way. What there is no doubt though, is that the guy is a great driver.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28701
paul_gmb wrote:
The fact that Lewis still can't stand Rosberg today, is enough for me to think Nico was good enough.

Lewis had to really work for it during that period... And Nico was instrumental in making Lewis a better driver and the same thing can be said the other way around.

I still look at the reviews of 2014 2015 and 2016. Even though it was Merc vs Merc, the battle between them was crazy. Looking back, it was much more intense than the fight with Ferrari.

PS: About those mind games, there were definitely some, but not to the extent that Hamilton is claiming. Lewis wanted a bit of drama, and wanted to have the "glamour" of a rivalry like Prost and Senna. But he never imagined it would be that tough mentally. And when he finally got it, he immediately started complaining.

I still doubt that he can handle it very well when things don't go his way. What there is no doubt though, is that the guy is a great driver.

Button beat Hamilton in 2011 and I don't believe that Hamilotn dislikes him, any dislike is not linked to either Rosberg beating him or being competitive.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm
Posts: 7542
I feel like when Hamilton retires we might get some more insight into that battle at Mercedes.

On his recent Beyond the grid podcast Nico said it started at Bahrain 2014 but when pressed on how he said he couldn't say, hinting that maybe he could one day.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6209
Location: Michigan, USA
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
I feel like when Hamilton retires we might get some more insight into that battle at Mercedes.

On his recent Beyond the grid podcast Nico said it started at Bahrain 2014 but when pressed on how he said he couldn't say, hinting that maybe he could one day.

I remember in that race Rosberg felt Hamilton had pushed him unfairly off track while defending his position. I have a hard time believing that's where it all came from, though. Maybe Monaco, after which Lewis was unable to trust Nico, would be a more likely starting point from the outside perspective.

Unless of course Rosberg was still harboring resentment from Bahrain in Monaco, and that's why he did what he (allegedly) did.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28701
Exediron wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
I feel like when Hamilton retires we might get some more insight into that battle at Mercedes.

On his recent Beyond the grid podcast Nico said it started at Bahrain 2014 but when pressed on how he said he couldn't say, hinting that maybe he could one day.

I remember in that race Rosberg felt Hamilton had pushed him unfairly off track while defending his position. I have a hard time believing that's where it all came from, though. Maybe Monaco, after which Lewis was unable to trust Nico, would be a more likely starting point from the outside perspective.

Unless of course Rosberg was still harboring resentment from Bahrain in Monaco, and that's why he did what he (allegedly) did.

Was it not Bahrain were Rosberg said that Hamilton used an engine mode to defend his position so giving Hamilton an unfair advantage, the drivers have to use the same engine modes.

That's quite a jump to Rosberg perhaps justifying his decision to park his car In Monaco qualifying, a bit like you punch me in the arm then I'm going to punch you in the face.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group