planetf1.com

It is currently Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:02 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2180
ELO tried to make a scientific list

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fo ... ne-racing/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:23 pm
Posts: 319
So DC is the 10 best drive in the history of f1 2 places above Jim Clark. I don't think even DC would agree with that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23227
Some weird results in that list, have to say. Hill, DC and Nico Rosberg above Clark and Piquet? Not in a million years for me. Same for Mika Hakkinen. Patrese 16 places above Mansell? Where's the crying hysterically emoji when you need it


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 5569
Location: Michigan, USA
Interesting try, and I'm always intrigued by these mathematical efforts to quantify the best drivers... However, this one - like many - doesn't really pass the eye test.

Now, a few things to note: firstly, it's not actually ranking the best driver of all time. The listing is by which driver enjoyed the greatest level of dominance over their best 5 years in the sport. Secondly, by their own admission they have made little if any attempt to separate the car and driver. With that in mind, it's scarcely a surprise that #2 drivers with dominant cars show up on the list - they still dominated much of the field, just not their own teammates.

At the end of the day, however, I can't find the results credible, however much I generally respect the people behind 538. Any attempt to identify the best drivers in Formula 1 hinges on its ability to separate the driver from the car, and by not attempting to do so they've doomed their list to being influenced almost entirely by the car.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 8:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26925
It's judged on a 5 year peak so basically you need an outstanding car 5 years on the trot, it's rubbish.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 8:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5020
Using their best 5 year stretch really works against the likes of Mansel. His best year isn't even included in the analysis.

It's not a terrible system but there is no real way to get down to the greatest driver of all time using just statistics. I actually tend to agree with the top three and in that order with Hamilton still potentially rising higher as he is still active. Of course I don't claim this as anything more than my own subjective opinion but I actually like this list's top 3.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 2:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Posts: 259
Location: Kansas
Quote:
...what’s striking is that Nos. 3 and 4 in the ranking above are current rivals: Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel. How lucky are modern F1 fans, that we get to see two names on the all-time short list of greatest drivers going head-to-head every few weeks?


I have been saying this for years. It's every bit the equal of the Prost v Senna rivalry without the personal animosity. They are two of F1's all time greats and we are now seeing them in increasingly equal cars. The fact that they really enjoy racing against each other is almost too good to be true.

I hope we get at least several more years of this kind of rivalry even if it not eventually for the top spot on the podium.

OTOH there are some anomalies in the ranking that (like other posters) I don't agree with.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 2:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:18 pm
Posts: 34
Not liking this list. I know his career was short lived but Gilles deserves to be on it and the formula works against it.

In all honesty, I think it's impossible to ever accurately determine which driver is the best. When you look at the difference of era, the relative competition, and the progression of technology, I feel like the only thing left to do is appreciate what different drivers did in their respectable eras. Obviously I would rank drivers like Ascari, Clark, Senna, Fangio, etc in the list but putting a number beside their name is impossible for me.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:13 pm
Posts: 1300
I put more stock in Patrick O'Brien's assessments.

http://grandprixratings.blogspot.ca/

I still miss you Patrick, RIP my friend.

_________________
Only dogs, mothers, and quality undergarments give unconditional support.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 1242
Location: Far side of Koozebane
While I commend them on their effort & agree with their # 1 pick, looking at the list I think Jeff Lynn and the boys should stick to singing.

_________________
Question: If a compulsive liar tells you they're a compulsive liar, are they really a compulsive liar?

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2003 11:31 am
Posts: 1719
A nonsense approach. It also discriminates against younger, newer drivers.

While he's down this season, you can argue Verstappen is already one of the all time greats of F1, maybe perhaps the greatest. At the end of 2017, we all felt that way. He isn't even on the list, which basically nullifies the whole thing.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 1242
Location: Far side of Koozebane
ReservoirDog wrote:
A nonsense approach. It also discriminates against younger, newer drivers.

.While he's down this season, you can argue Verstappen is already one of the all time greats of F1, maybe perhaps the greatest. At the end of 2017, we all felt that way. He isn't even on the list, which basically nullifies the whole thing.


8O 8O 8O.

A few too many beers on a Saturday night RD?

_________________
Question: If a compulsive liar tells you they're a compulsive liar, are they really a compulsive liar?

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Last edited by Jezza13 on Sun May 27, 2018 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 1738
ReservoirDog wrote:
A nonsense approach. It also discriminates against younger, newer drivers.

While he's down this season, you can argue Verstappen is already one of the all time greats of F1, maybe perhaps the greatest. At the end of 2017, we all felt that way. He isn't even on the list, which basically nullifies the whole thing.


Not sure if cereal or surreal.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5020
ReservoirDog wrote:
A nonsense approach. It also discriminates against younger, newer drivers.

While he's down this season, you can argue Verstappen is already one of the all time greats of F1, maybe perhaps the greatest. At the end of 2017, we all felt that way. He isn't even on the list, which basically nullifies the whole thing.

And the award for the most absurd post of 2018 goes to....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 1242
Location: Far side of Koozebane
sandman1347 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
A nonsense approach. It also discriminates against younger, newer drivers.

While he's down this season, you can argue Verstappen is already one of the all time greats of F1, maybe perhaps the greatest. At the end of 2017, we all felt that way. He isn't even on the list, which basically nullifies the whole thing.

And the award for the most absurd post of 2018 goes to....


Yeah i'll admit I've typed some crap in my time but this is going to take some beating

Jezza13 - From the Azerbaijan teammate wars thread wrote:
Looks like our lone Verstappen fan from China has stopped by already.

Well done bud. You may be a tad delusional but at least no-one can question your loyalty. :thumbup:

I think we know who this is now anyway.

_________________
Question: If a compulsive liar tells you they're a compulsive liar, are they really a compulsive liar?

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 5569
Location: Michigan, USA
ReservoirDog wrote:
A nonsense approach. It also discriminates against younger, newer drivers.

While he's down this season, you can argue Verstappen is already one of the all time greats of F1, maybe perhaps the greatest. At the end of 2017, we all felt that way. He isn't even on the list, which basically nullifies the whole thing.

:lol:

Trust me, buddy, we didn't all feel that way.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 5:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2003 11:31 am
Posts: 1719
Exediron wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
A nonsense approach. It also discriminates against younger, newer drivers.

While he's down this season, you can argue Verstappen is already one of the all time greats of F1, maybe perhaps the greatest. At the end of 2017, we all felt that way. He isn't even on the list, which basically nullifies the whole thing.

:lol:

Trust me, buddy, we didn't all feel that way.


That was obviously a figure of speech. I just mean that the majority felt that way.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 6:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 3860
I suspect you're very wrong again....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 6:38 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 1242
Location: Far side of Koozebane
I literally cannot think of 1 comment that even hinted at Verstappen as being the best driver currently on the grid let alone as one of greats if not already the greatest

_________________
Question: If a compulsive liar tells you they're a compulsive liar, are they really a compulsive liar?

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 6:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:48 pm
Posts: 334
Jezza13 wrote:
I literally cannot think of 1 comment that even hinted at Verstappen as being the best driver currently on the grid let alone as one of greats if not already the greatest


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14436

First post of this topic. :P


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 1242
Location: Far side of Koozebane
Llotyhy wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
I literally cannot think of 1 comment that even hinted at Verstappen as being the best driver currently on the grid let alone as one of greats if not already the greatest


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14436

First post of this topic. :P


Well there ya go.

I should've known better. :frown: :frown:

_________________
Question: If a compulsive liar tells you they're a compulsive liar, are they really a compulsive liar?

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:42 pm
Posts: 1969
Jezza13 wrote:
While I commend them on their effort & agree with their # 1 pick, looking at the list I think Jeff Lynn and the boys should stick to singing.


Ah. At least it's not just me :D

Yeh. Absurd list. Puts far too much emphasis on those that have a few years of a dominant car.

_________________
Top Three Team Champions 2017 (With Jezza13)
Group Pick 'Em 2016 Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 11:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:59 pm
Posts: 5173
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I put more stock in Patrick O'Brien's assessments.

http://grandprixratings.blogspot.ca/

I still miss you Patrick, RIP my friend.

I was also going to say Patrick's ratings are still the best by far. He worked on his formula for so long, taking driver, car and overall package into account from their entire f1 career.

Always loved his posts and discussions and echo your sentiments.

_________________
There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 12:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:48 pm
Posts: 478
That's a horrible list. Alonso 22nd and Vettel 4th :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:09 am
Posts: 2751
Location: Perth, Australia
Obviously an incorrect list. I applaud the author for the attempt, but they should have realised it was nonsense when they looked at their rank.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:54 am
Posts: 130
I feel Lance Stroll needs to mentioned. You need to be a top-shelf bullshit artist to have a seat in f1 and be so mediocre in your second season, AND still be in the series.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 4737
I find it surreal that Alonso's best 5yr span doesn't include his back to back titles and another he missed out on by a point.

When that's only your second best 5yr span and you still make it to only 22nd you know something's gone wrong somewhere.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 4773
Puts proof to the saying. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

_________________
{Insert clever sig line here}


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 6:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 1959
Lotus49 wrote:
I find it surreal that Alonso's best 5yr span doesn't include his back to back titles and another he missed out on by a point.

When that's only your second best 5yr span and you still make it to only 22nd you know something's gone wrong somewhere.


What is his "best" 5 yr span, then, and why? Why taking 5 yr spans at all?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:06 am
Posts: 3185
minchy wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I put more stock in Patrick O'Brien's assessments.

http://grandprixratings.blogspot.ca/

I still miss you Patrick, RIP my friend.

I was also going to say Patrick's ratings are still the best by far. He worked on his formula for so long, taking driver, car and overall package into account from their entire f1 career.

Always loved his posts and discussions and echo your sentiments.


Patrick's daughter Catherine O'Brien posting here an excerpt from his 'Explanatory Chapters' (2016) which may be relevant to this perennial question:
---------------------
3.6 Is there a greatest driver of all time?

After publication of my analytical book in 1994, and since 2002 with my Rating System and blog started in 2011, many have asked who I consider to be “the greatest driver of all time”. This is the most popular topic among enthusiasts of Grand Prix racing, and has led to much debate and often heated argument.

Is Fangio better than Schumacher? Senna better than Alonso? Nuvolari better than Moss? Clark superior to Lauda? What of Prost and Stewart? Is Vettel the best ever? What about those German stars of the thirties Caracciola and Rosemeyer? Or those drivers of the ‘monster’ cars in the early 1900s: Levegh, Fournier, Gabriel, Théry, Nazzaro, de Palma, Hemery, Tetzlaff or Georges Boillot? How would they fare, rate or compare against modern-day stars, such as Hamilton’s exceptional speed?

My contention is that it is impossible to nominate any single driver, or even a top five or ten, as ‘the greatest’. The most I can conclude is that there are 87 drivers who top driver-rated at the ultimate 100.0 (1894-2013) according to my System [sic - POB's 'Season Summary Tables' updates this figure to 98 for 1894-2016]. As I could not differentiate between them, I place them all equal in the top tier.

Assuming the hypothetical ideal, same-era/same-cars, it is my contention that the top drivers would all be close-matched. The basic talents, desire, will, need-to-win, passion, feel and competitive skills required have not differed over the entire period. This hunch is supported by those few seasons when high-rated drivers (those pairs equal or close to the ultimate 100.0 rating) were team-mates in same-cars. Their performances were so close-matched as to be virtually identical. In the cases that I list below, the time-based differentials between the two drivers (season-averages) as per my System, worked out at less than 0.2% and in many cases equal. This has been the case from the start of racing in 1894:

High-rated team-mate drivers in same-team cars

[.........................]

The only way in which I rate and rank drivers across eras is in tiers: all the top-raters at 100.0 form the first tier; those at 100.1 form the second tier, those at 100.3 the third tier, and so on down. Within each tier, I cannot separate or rank individuals.

Although ‘Greatest Drivers’ lists are always popular and interesting, we should be suspicious of any in which linear rankings are used. Whether by personal selection or by some arbitrary points system, such lists always produce strange, unrealistic ratings and rankings. They are subjective, with little or no scientific basis. These lists expose their contributors’ personal and era biases and national prejudices, and reflect on the depth or otherwise of reading-research. Those that are points-based also produce unrealistic rating/rankings due to the arbitrariness of the points allocations.

_________________
http://grandprixratings.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 9:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 4737
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I find it surreal that Alonso's best 5yr span doesn't include his back to back titles and another he missed out on by a point.

When that's only your second best 5yr span and you still make it to only 22nd you know something's gone wrong somewhere.


What is his "best" 5 yr span, then, and why? Why taking 5 yr spans at all?


It says 2010-2014 was the 5yr span used for him. It must have scored more than any span incorporating 2005/6/7 by whatever point scoring system they came up with.

Seems weird to me too but I haven't a clue why they chose 5yr's or why it had to be a span rather than just your best 5 years. That at least would limit the damage for a driver who's team messes up anyway.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 9:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26925
ReservoirDog wrote:
A nonsense approach. It also discriminates against younger, newer drivers.

While he's down this season, you can argue Verstappen is already one of the all time greats of F1, maybe perhaps the greatest. At the end of 2017, we all felt that way. He isn't even on the list, which basically nullifies the whole thing.

You become a great through your body of evidence not what you may achieve in the future, thus far Verstappen has achieved little to get on the list.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 4:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6296
Location: Nebraska, USA
pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
A nonsense approach. It also discriminates against younger, newer drivers.

While he's down this season, you can argue Verstappen is already one of the all time greats of F1, maybe perhaps the greatest. At the end of 2017, we all felt that way. He isn't even on the list, which basically nullifies the whole thing.

You become a great through your body of evidence not what you may achieve in the future, thus far Verstappen has achieved little to get on the list.


+1

Max is a LONG way from making an all-time great list.. To even suggest it seems ridiculous.

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 5:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:09 am
Posts: 2751
Location: Perth, Australia
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
A nonsense approach. It also discriminates against younger, newer drivers.

While he's down this season, you can argue Verstappen is already one of the all time greats of F1, maybe perhaps the greatest. At the end of 2017, we all felt that way. He isn't even on the list, which basically nullifies the whole thing.

You become a great through your body of evidence not what you may achieve in the future, thus far Verstappen has achieved little to get on the list.


+1

Max is a LONG way from making an all-time great list.. To even suggest it seems ridiculous.


Crofty did compare him to Senna, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Alonso and Hamilton on Thursday.

Then again Crofty is Max Verstappen fanclub member #1.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 6:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:58 pm
Posts: 1248
Location: London
Toby. wrote:

Crofty .........


Would that be David "Hyperbole" Croft?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 7:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 5569
Location: Michigan, USA
POBRatings wrote:
Patrick's daughter Catherine O'Brien posting here an excerpt from his 'Explanatory Chapters' (2016) which may be relevant to this perennial question:
---------------------
3.6 Is there a greatest driver of all time?

After publication of my analytical book in 1994, and since 2002 with my Rating System and blog started in 2011, many have asked who I consider to be “the greatest driver of all time”. This is the most popular topic among enthusiasts of Grand Prix racing, and has led to much debate and often heated argument.

Is Fangio better than Schumacher? Senna better than Alonso? Nuvolari better than Moss? Clark superior to Lauda? What of Prost and Stewart? Is Vettel the best ever? What about those German stars of the thirties Caracciola and Rosemeyer? Or those drivers of the ‘monster’ cars in the early 1900s: Levegh, Fournier, Gabriel, Théry, Nazzaro, de Palma, Hemery, Tetzlaff or Georges Boillot? How would they fare, rate or compare against modern-day stars, such as Hamilton’s exceptional speed?

My contention is that it is impossible to nominate any single driver, or even a top five or ten, as ‘the greatest’. The most I can conclude is that there are 87 drivers who top driver-rated at the ultimate 100.0 (1894-2013) according to my System [sic - POB's 'Season Summary Tables' updates this figure to 98 for 1894-2016]. As I could not differentiate between them, I place them all equal in the top tier.

Assuming the hypothetical ideal, same-era/same-cars, it is my contention that the top drivers would all be close-matched. The basic talents, desire, will, need-to-win, passion, feel and competitive skills required have not differed over the entire period. This hunch is supported by those few seasons when high-rated drivers (those pairs equal or close to the ultimate 100.0 rating) were team-mates in same-cars. Their performances were so close-matched as to be virtually identical. In the cases that I list below, the time-based differentials between the two drivers (season-averages) as per my System, worked out at less than 0.2% and in many cases equal. This has been the case from the start of racing in 1894:

High-rated team-mate drivers in same-team cars

[.........................]

The only way in which I rate and rank drivers across eras is in tiers: all the top-raters at 100.0 form the first tier; those at 100.1 form the second tier, those at 100.3 the third tier, and so on down. Within each tier, I cannot separate or rank individuals.

Although ‘Greatest Drivers’ lists are always popular and interesting, we should be suspicious of any in which linear rankings are used. Whether by personal selection or by some arbitrary points system, such lists always produce strange, unrealistic ratings and rankings. They are subjective, with little or no scientific basis. These lists expose their contributors’ personal and era biases and national prejudices, and reflect on the depth or otherwise of reading-research. Those that are points-based also produce unrealistic rating/rankings due to the arbitrariness of the points allocations.

:thumbup:

I think this is the only data-driven conclusion you can really reach, since it's impossible to mathematically compare drivers with no common point of reference. Lists of the best driver of all time almost invariably come down to emotion; as far as real analytics is concerned, I think the best you could do would be the best driver from each era (and indeed that's the farthest I'm willing to go myself when ranking the top drivers).

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 2:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26925
Exediron wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Patrick's daughter Catherine O'Brien posting here an excerpt from his 'Explanatory Chapters' (2016) which may be relevant to this perennial question:
---------------------
3.6 Is there a greatest driver of all time?

After publication of my analytical book in 1994, and since 2002 with my Rating System and blog started in 2011, many have asked who I consider to be “the greatest driver of all time”. This is the most popular topic among enthusiasts of Grand Prix racing, and has led to much debate and often heated argument.

Is Fangio better than Schumacher? Senna better than Alonso? Nuvolari better than Moss? Clark superior to Lauda? What of Prost and Stewart? Is Vettel the best ever? What about those German stars of the thirties Caracciola and Rosemeyer? Or those drivers of the ‘monster’ cars in the early 1900s: Levegh, Fournier, Gabriel, Théry, Nazzaro, de Palma, Hemery, Tetzlaff or Georges Boillot? How would they fare, rate or compare against modern-day stars, such as Hamilton’s exceptional speed?

My contention is that it is impossible to nominate any single driver, or even a top five or ten, as ‘the greatest’. The most I can conclude is that there are 87 drivers who top driver-rated at the ultimate 100.0 (1894-2013) according to my System [sic - POB's 'Season Summary Tables' updates this figure to 98 for 1894-2016]. As I could not differentiate between them, I place them all equal in the top tier.

Assuming the hypothetical ideal, same-era/same-cars, it is my contention that the top drivers would all be close-matched. The basic talents, desire, will, need-to-win, passion, feel and competitive skills required have not differed over the entire period. This hunch is supported by those few seasons when high-rated drivers (those pairs equal or close to the ultimate 100.0 rating) were team-mates in same-cars. Their performances were so close-matched as to be virtually identical. In the cases that I list below, the time-based differentials between the two drivers (season-averages) as per my System, worked out at less than 0.2% and in many cases equal. This has been the case from the start of racing in 1894:

High-rated team-mate drivers in same-team cars

[.........................]

The only way in which I rate and rank drivers across eras is in tiers: all the top-raters at 100.0 form the first tier; those at 100.1 form the second tier, those at 100.3 the third tier, and so on down. Within each tier, I cannot separate or rank individuals.

Although ‘Greatest Drivers’ lists are always popular and interesting, we should be suspicious of any in which linear rankings are used. Whether by personal selection or by some arbitrary points system, such lists always produce strange, unrealistic ratings and rankings. They are subjective, with little or no scientific basis. These lists expose their contributors’ personal and era biases and national prejudices, and reflect on the depth or otherwise of reading-research. Those that are points-based also produce unrealistic rating/rankings due to the arbitrariness of the points allocations.

:thumbup:

I think this is the only data-driven conclusion you can really reach, since it's impossible to mathematically compare drivers with no common point of reference. Lists of the best driver of all time almost invariably come down to emotion; as far as real analytics is concerned, I think the best you could do would be the best driver from each era (and indeed that's the farthest I'm willing to go myself when ranking the top drivers).

Indeed you can only go from eras and you can't make one era more important than another, then you have a rich spread of drivers from the 50s through to now.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 6:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2003 11:31 am
Posts: 1719
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
A nonsense approach. It also discriminates against younger, newer drivers.

While he's down this season, you can argue Verstappen is already one of the all time greats of F1, maybe perhaps the greatest. At the end of 2017, we all felt that way. He isn't even on the list, which basically nullifies the whole thing.

You become a great through your body of evidence not what you may achieve in the future, thus far Verstappen has achieved little to get on the list.


+1

Max is a LONG way from making an all-time great list.. To even suggest it seems ridiculous.


Let's just agree to disagree without calling it ridiculous.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 8:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:48 pm
Posts: 1176
If you factor in ALL of the on-track skills, ie, pure speed, pure race speed, racecraft, adaptability to car, adaptability to conditions, first lap genius, flawless consistency, defensive skills, and relentless motivation, dealing with on-track and championship pressure, IMO, the greatest F1 driver ever is Fernando Alonso.

Bar none.

Above Schumacher, who he thrashes in racecraft, absolutely thrashes him in starts off the line, and unlike Schumacher, thrives under adversity.

He thrashes Senna in racecraft too. He beats Hamilton in dealing with pressure, and certainly beats him in consistency and error-free racecraft.

He beats Prost in speed, in aggression without any errors. He beats them all.

So, IMO, Fernando Alonso is the greatest. I wanted to vent this ludicrous opinion out.



In the non-driver skills, like inter-team atmosphere, choosing which team to be in, I'm not sure if he's just bad, or unlucky. I can see the sense in either.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 9:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 1959
Lotus49 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I find it surreal that Alonso's best 5yr span doesn't include his back to back titles and another he missed out on by a point.

When that's only your second best 5yr span and you still make it to only 22nd you know something's gone wrong somewhere.


What is his "best" 5 yr span, then, and why? Why taking 5 yr spans at all?


It says 2010-2014 was the 5yr span used for him. It must have scored more than any span incorporating 2005/6/7 by whatever point scoring system they came up with.

Seems weird to me too but I haven't a clue why they chose 5yr's or why it had to be a span rather than just your best 5 years. That at least would limit the damage for a driver who's team messes up anyway.


What a completely stupid - and fully un-scientific - approach, then.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Placid and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group