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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:38 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
What's the difference? All the teams that did similar were the ones to make that call when the situation arose. Again, it only seems to be an issue for you when it benefits certain drivers.

I just have concerns for Vandoorne's situation at McLaren.


Yeah I'm sure it's keeping you awake at night.

McLaren know the score whatever it is so there's no need to worry about it, his future won't be decided by someone getting the wrong idea based on anything that might be unfair.

Well that's just part of it, I wouldn't be a lover of how Alonso operates within a team.


Oh that much is clear. But it's how you believe he operates based on rumours and second hand info to be clear, unless you've got something to tell us about your own experiences with how he operates within a team?

I don't recall his last team mate having an issue with how he operates within the team for example and there are as many stories out there from ex-colleagues praising it as you'll find criticising it.

Well the last 3 years I guess there was not much point but how he acts within a team seems to prevent the top teams from signing him, that seems quite real.

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2014: Champion
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2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:55 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I just have concerns for Vandoorne's situation at McLaren.


Yeah I'm sure it's keeping you awake at night.

McLaren know the score whatever it is so there's no need to worry about it, his future won't be decided by someone getting the wrong idea based on anything that might be unfair.

Well that's just part of it, I wouldn't be a lover of how Alonso operates within a team.


Oh that much is clear. But it's how you believe he operates based on rumours and second hand info to be clear, unless you've got something to tell us about your own experiences with how he operates within a team?

I don't recall his last team mate having an issue with how he operates within the team for example and there are as many stories out there from ex-colleagues praising it as you'll find criticising it.

Well the last 3 years I guess there was not much point but how he acts within a team seems to prevent the top teams from signing him, that seems quite real.


And there is a point now?

There's 5 bigger budget teams.

The one he's at.
The one that said they would have him when they have a competitive car.
The one that say they still have the hump over Spygate 10yrs ago and also had a toxic driver line up recently so probably don't fancy another.
The one he left not long ago with consent but still broke contract with.
And the one who prefer their own talent pool.


I'm sure there's lots of reasons why they (The big 3) don't want Alonso, being perfectly happy with their current line ups surely the most obvious. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari seem to fancy going down the Red Bull route of putting two top 5 drivers next to each other, not even the perfectly nice Danny Ricc who doesn't look likely to get a look in either.

Unless he's got a reputation I don't know about?

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:56 pm 
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Posts: 3185
Lotus49 wrote:

And there is a point now?

There's 5 bigger budget teams.

The one he's at.
The one that said they would have him when they have a competitive car.
The one that say they still have the hump over Spygate 10yrs ago and also had a toxic driver line up recently so probably don't fancy another.
The one he left not long ago with consent but still broke contract with.
And the one who prefer their own talent pool.


I'm sure there's lots of reasons why they (The big 3) don't want Alonso, being perfectly happy with their current line ups surely the most obvious. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari seem to fancy going down the Red Bull route of putting two top 5 drivers next to each other, not even the perfectly nice Danny Ricc who doesn't look likely to get a look in either.

Unless he's got a reputation I don't know about?


Maybe it also has to do with the fact that he has failed to help develop cars in a meaningful manner for years now. I know you disagree with this, but I believe there might be something to that. The Ferraris he drove had tremendous resources behind them but they went nowhere, always going backwards as the season progressed. The Mclarens he's driving now had very good resources behind them but aren't looking like they will challenge for wins or championships any time soon, despite the Honda exit. Also curious is how he is consistently miles ahead of his teammates since he joined Ferrari. Two of his teammates were world champions, one almost won a world championship and the other dominated in his junior career. Yet Alonso made them all look like chumps. The only teammate that put up a decent fight was Jenson Button in his first year with Alonso. Why do I get the feeling that the cars are developped and designed to suit Alonso, and Alonso only, as opposed to being faster than the competition? It seems everyone has trouble driving Alonso's cars. I don't think he's doing that on purpose, but he has such a unique driving style, which has been well documented. So maybe what suits alonso is not what will actually help you win championships? I don't know. Just an old theory I've seen thrown around before and I find myself agreeing with it more and more.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:13 pm 
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Agree - Alonso should spend more time in the wind tunnel designing these cars.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:46 am 
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Posts: 9157
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

And there is a point now?

There's 5 bigger budget teams.

The one he's at.
The one that said they would have him when they have a competitive car.
The one that say they still have the hump over Spygate 10yrs ago and also had a toxic driver line up recently so probably don't fancy another.
The one he left not long ago with consent but still broke contract with.
And the one who prefer their own talent pool.


I'm sure there's lots of reasons why they (The big 3) don't want Alonso, being perfectly happy with their current line ups surely the most obvious. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari seem to fancy going down the Red Bull route of putting two top 5 drivers next to each other, not even the perfectly nice Danny Ricc who doesn't look likely to get a look in either.

Unless he's got a reputation I don't know about?


Maybe it also has to do with the fact that he has failed to help develop cars in a meaningful manner for years now. I know you disagree with this, but I believe there might be something to that. The Ferraris he drove had tremendous resources behind them but they went nowhere, always going backwards as the season progressed. The Mclarens he's driving now had very good resources behind them but aren't looking like they will challenge for wins or championships any time soon, despite the Honda exit. Also curious is how he is consistently miles ahead of his teammates since he joined Ferrari. Two of his teammates were world champions, one almost won a world championship and the other dominated in his junior career. Yet Alonso made them all look like chumps. The only teammate that put up a decent fight was Jenson Button in his first year with Alonso. Why do I get the feeling that the cars are developped and designed to suit Alonso, and Alonso only, as opposed to being faster than the competition? It seems everyone has trouble driving Alonso's cars. I don't think he's doing that on purpose, but he has such a unique driving style, which has been well documented. So maybe what suits alonso is not what will actually help you win championships? I don't know. Just an old theory I've seen thrown around before and I find myself agreeing with it more and more.

Yeah that's what I believe too.

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Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:35 am 
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Posts: 5222
Location: Michigan, USA
Covalent wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

And there is a point now?

There's 5 bigger budget teams.

The one he's at.
The one that said they would have him when they have a competitive car.
The one that say they still have the hump over Spygate 10yrs ago and also had a toxic driver line up recently so probably don't fancy another.
The one he left not long ago with consent but still broke contract with.
And the one who prefer their own talent pool.


I'm sure there's lots of reasons why they (The big 3) don't want Alonso, being perfectly happy with their current line ups surely the most obvious. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari seem to fancy going down the Red Bull route of putting two top 5 drivers next to each other, not even the perfectly nice Danny Ricc who doesn't look likely to get a look in either.

Unless he's got a reputation I don't know about?


Maybe it also has to do with the fact that he has failed to help develop cars in a meaningful manner for years now. I know you disagree with this, but I believe there might be something to that. The Ferraris he drove had tremendous resources behind them but they went nowhere, always going backwards as the season progressed. The Mclarens he's driving now had very good resources behind them but aren't looking like they will challenge for wins or championships any time soon, despite the Honda exit. Also curious is how he is consistently miles ahead of his teammates since he joined Ferrari. Two of his teammates were world champions, one almost won a world championship and the other dominated in his junior career. Yet Alonso made them all look like chumps. The only teammate that put up a decent fight was Jenson Button in his first year with Alonso. Why do I get the feeling that the cars are developped and designed to suit Alonso, and Alonso only, as opposed to being faster than the competition? It seems everyone has trouble driving Alonso's cars. I don't think he's doing that on purpose, but he has such a unique driving style, which has been well documented. So maybe what suits alonso is not what will actually help you win championships? I don't know. Just an old theory I've seen thrown around before and I find myself agreeing with it more and more.

Yeah that's what I believe too.

You actually believe this baloney about the cars not being quick enough for the championship because Alonso isn't 'developing them' enough?

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 8:48 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
During the race DC said that in the chicane there is no white line exactly, so it is difficult to say if Max had crossed it or not.

So I was wondering, how do they police this on the apex where there are the bumps and no white line? is it under the kerbs in the centre? Or at the edge? Does anyone know?
I recall reading a clarification that said the white line, marking the edge of the track, is part of the track but the kerb stones arn't. But the white line disappearing down the middle of the kerbs lead me to believe that the drivers must have been briefed about how it would be policed. With young drivers coming in, that should surely be standard?

I remember the Nouvelle Chicane was modified a few times, but that doesn't explain how the track passed inspection without it present.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:02 am 
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Posts: 9157
Exediron wrote:
Covalent wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

And there is a point now?

There's 5 bigger budget teams.

The one he's at.
The one that said they would have him when they have a competitive car.
The one that say they still have the hump over Spygate 10yrs ago and also had a toxic driver line up recently so probably don't fancy another.
The one he left not long ago with consent but still broke contract with.
And the one who prefer their own talent pool.


I'm sure there's lots of reasons why they (The big 3) don't want Alonso, being perfectly happy with their current line ups surely the most obvious. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari seem to fancy going down the Red Bull route of putting two top 5 drivers next to each other, not even the perfectly nice Danny Ricc who doesn't look likely to get a look in either.

Unless he's got a reputation I don't know about?


Maybe it also has to do with the fact that he has failed to help develop cars in a meaningful manner for years now. I know you disagree with this, but I believe there might be something to that. The Ferraris he drove had tremendous resources behind them but they went nowhere, always going backwards as the season progressed. The Mclarens he's driving now had very good resources behind them but aren't looking like they will challenge for wins or championships any time soon, despite the Honda exit. Also curious is how he is consistently miles ahead of his teammates since he joined Ferrari. Two of his teammates were world champions, one almost won a world championship and the other dominated in his junior career. Yet Alonso made them all look like chumps. The only teammate that put up a decent fight was Jenson Button in his first year with Alonso. Why do I get the feeling that the cars are developped and designed to suit Alonso, and Alonso only, as opposed to being faster than the competition? It seems everyone has trouble driving Alonso's cars. I don't think he's doing that on purpose, but he has such a unique driving style, which has been well documented. So maybe what suits alonso is not what will actually help you win championships? I don't know. Just an old theory I've seen thrown around before and I find myself agreeing with it more and more.

Yeah that's what I believe too.

You actually believe this baloney about the cars not being quick enough for the championship because Alonso isn't 'developing them' enough?

No and that's not what's being said.

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:45 am 
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Posts: 5979
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
During the race DC said that in the chicane there is no white line exactly, so it is difficult to say if Max had crossed it or not.

So I was wondering, how do they police this on the apex where there are the bumps and no white line? is it under the kerbs in the centre? Or at the edge? Does anyone know?
I recall reading a clarification that said the white line, marking the edge of the track, is part of the track but the kerb stones arn't. But the white line disappearing down the middle of the kerbs lead me to believe that the drivers must have been briefed about how it would be policed. With young drivers coming in, that should surely be standard?

I remember the Nouvelle Chicane was modified a few times, but that doesn't explain how the track passed inspection without it present.


Thank you Fiki, but this is what I don't understand; check this pic and see how before the kerbs there are just very wide white and red lines. There is no white line at all. So what is the rule in this case? These white and red lines are not kerbs. I just don't see how they explain this.

Image

(Pic from https://www.grandprix247.com)


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 12:30 pm 
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Posts: 7113
Location: Belgium
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
During the race DC said that in the chicane there is no white line exactly, so it is difficult to say if Max had crossed it or not.

So I was wondering, how do they police this on the apex where there are the bumps and no white line? is it under the kerbs in the centre? Or at the edge? Does anyone know?
I recall reading a clarification that said the white line, marking the edge of the track, is part of the track but the kerb stones arn't. But the white line disappearing down the middle of the kerbs lead me to believe that the drivers must have been briefed about how it would be policed. With young drivers coming in, that should surely be standard?

I remember the Nouvelle Chicane was modified a few times, but that doesn't explain how the track passed inspection without it present.


Thank you Fiki, but this is what I don't understand; check this pic and see how before the kerbs there are just very wide white and red lines. There is no white line at all. So what is the rule in this case? These white and red lines are not kerbs. I just don't see how they explain this.
I just had a quick look, most of the track at Monaco lacks white lines to mark the edge of the track, though there are plenty of other white lines for daily traffic. I suppose it's obvious enough to point to armco as a "hard substitute", but that doesn't answer our problem in any way.

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Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:19 pm 
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Posts: 26063
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Yeah I'm sure it's keeping you awake at night.

McLaren know the score whatever it is so there's no need to worry about it, his future won't be decided by someone getting the wrong idea based on anything that might be unfair.

Well that's just part of it, I wouldn't be a lover of how Alonso operates within a team.


Oh that much is clear. But it's how you believe he operates based on rumours and second hand info to be clear, unless you've got something to tell us about your own experiences with how he operates within a team?

I don't recall his last team mate having an issue with how he operates within the team for example and there are as many stories out there from ex-colleagues praising it as you'll find criticising it.

Well the last 3 years I guess there was not much point but how he acts within a team seems to prevent the top teams from signing him, that seems quite real.


And there is a point now?

There's 5 bigger budget teams.

The one he's at.
The one that said they would have him when they have a competitive car.
The one that say they still have the hump over Spygate 10yrs ago and also had a toxic driver line up recently so probably don't fancy another.
The one he left not long ago with consent but still broke contract with.
And the one who prefer their own talent pool.


I'm sure there's lots of reasons why they (The big 3) don't want Alonso, being perfectly happy with their current line ups surely the most obvious. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari seem to fancy going down the Red Bull route of putting two top 5 drivers next to each other, not even the perfectly nice Danny Ricc who doesn't look likely to get a look in either.

Unless he's got a reputation I don't know about?

Yeah I think there is more of a point now for Alonso, he's keen to point out his position in the WDC and I think the goal for him is to win the mini WDC, best of the rest behind the top 3 teams.

Maybe the stories coming out from McLaren are not true, but then again last year the cars never seemed to be identical, do the other top teams run like this, I don't think so, so are McLaren truely a top team, I don't recall them running like this when Hamilton was there apart from the 2009 season when they were trying to improve the silver donkey.

Maybe It's unfortunate that Alonso always finds himself is this position were teams don't back their drivers equally, maybe questions should be asked more about how McLaren themselves are operating in terms of fairness to drivers if the stories are true?

Also there maybe some truth in Mercedes and Ferrari not wanting to upset the apple cart, but stories surrounding Alonso often talk of burnt bridges.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 4th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Last edited by pokerman on Wed May 30, 2018 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:21 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Agree - Alonso should spend more time in the wind tunnel designing these cars.

When he first joined McLaren some of his supporters actually believed he was doing such things, the 6 tenths he brings.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 4th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 5979
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
During the race DC said that in the chicane there is no white line exactly, so it is difficult to say if Max had crossed it or not.

So I was wondering, how do they police this on the apex where there are the bumps and no white line? is it under the kerbs in the centre? Or at the edge? Does anyone know?
I recall reading a clarification that said the white line, marking the edge of the track, is part of the track but the kerb stones arn't. But the white line disappearing down the middle of the kerbs lead me to believe that the drivers must have been briefed about how it would be policed. With young drivers coming in, that should surely be standard?

I remember the Nouvelle Chicane was modified a few times, but that doesn't explain how the track passed inspection without it present.


Thank you Fiki, but this is what I don't understand; check this pic and see how before the kerbs there are just very wide white and red lines. There is no white line at all. So what is the rule in this case? These white and red lines are not kerbs. I just don't see how they explain this.
I just had a quick look, most of the track at Monaco lacks white lines to mark the edge of the track, though there are plenty of other white lines for daily traffic. I suppose it's obvious enough to point to armco as a "hard substitute", but that doesn't answer our problem in any way.


Yeah, I take it they can't paint lines like that on a public road, although I have never been there to see the roads. But there's no point on the wall sections, I guess the edge of the track is blatant! The problem is on the chicane and the other few painted sections


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Yeah I think there is more of a point now for Alonso, he's keen to point out his position in the WDC and I think the goal for him is to win the mini WDC, best of the rest behind the top 3 teams.

Maybe the stories coming out from McLaren are not true, but then again last year the cars never seemed to be identical, do the other top teams run like this, I don't think so, so are McLaren truely a top team, I don't recall them running like this when Hamilton was there apart from the 2009 season when they were trying to improve the silver donkey.

Maybe It's unfortunate that Alonso always finds himself is this position were teams don't back their drivers equally, maybe questions should be asked more about how McLaren themselves are operating in terms of fairness to drivers if the stories are true?

Also there maybe some truth in Mercedes and Ferrari not wanting to upset the apple cart, but stories surrounding Alonso often talk of burnt bridges.


Alonso has driven for 3 serious F1 teams. Two of them resigned him. he can't be that awful. Vandoorne and Alonso ran the same car in almost every race last season.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:58 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah I think there is more of a point now for Alonso, he's keen to point out his position in the WDC and I think the goal for him is to win the mini WDC, best of the rest behind the top 3 teams.

Maybe the stories coming out from McLaren are not true, but then again last year the cars never seemed to be identical, do the other top teams run like this, I don't think so, so are McLaren truely a top team, I don't recall them running like this when Hamilton was there apart from the 2009 season when they were trying to improve the silver donkey.

Maybe It's unfortunate that Alonso always finds himself is this position were teams don't back their drivers equally, maybe questions should be asked more about how McLaren themselves are operating in terms of fairness to drivers if the stories are true?

Also there maybe some truth in Mercedes and Ferrari not wanting to upset the apple cart, but stories surrounding Alonso often talk of burnt bridges.


Alonso has driven for 3 serious F1 teams. Two of them resigned him. he can't be that awful. Vandoorne and Alonso ran the same car in almost every race last season.

I wouldn't argue against him being the best driver on the grid but the guy is political within a team, the 2 teams were on downers when they resigned him, both had fallen into the midfield and both needed him to try and resurrect themselves, however both Mercedes and Ferrari who have worked with him in the past, don't want him.

Apparently Vandoorne has recently felt the need to say that McLaren know his true performance and it's not what the outside world sees, that doesn't sound like equal cars?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 4th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah I think there is more of a point now for Alonso, he's keen to point out his position in the WDC and I think the goal for him is to win the mini WDC, best of the rest behind the top 3 teams.

Maybe the stories coming out from McLaren are not true, but then again last year the cars never seemed to be identical, do the other top teams run like this, I don't think so, so are McLaren truely a top team, I don't recall them running like this when Hamilton was there apart from the 2009 season when they were trying to improve the silver donkey.

Maybe It's unfortunate that Alonso always finds himself is this position were teams don't back their drivers equally, maybe questions should be asked more about how McLaren themselves are operating in terms of fairness to drivers if the stories are true?

Also there maybe some truth in Mercedes and Ferrari not wanting to upset the apple cart, but stories surrounding Alonso often talk of burnt bridges.


Alonso has driven for 3 serious F1 teams. Two of them resigned him. he can't be that awful. Vandoorne and Alonso ran the same car in almost every race last season.

I wouldn't argue against him being the best driver on the grid but the guy is political within a team, the 2 teams were on downers when they resigned him, both had fallen into the midfield and both needed him to try and resurrect themselves, however both Mercedes and Ferrari who have worked with him in the past, don't want him.

Apparently Vandoorne has recently felt the need to say that McLaren know his true performance and it's not what the outside world sees, that doesn't sound like equal cars?


It seems strange to jump to that conclusion. He could mean anything.

Hell, it could even mean that McLaren know that Alonso's so good he makes Vandoorne look a lot worse than he is. That sounds equally as likely to me.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:25 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah I think there is more of a point now for Alonso, he's keen to point out his position in the WDC and I think the goal for him is to win the mini WDC, best of the rest behind the top 3 teams.

Maybe the stories coming out from McLaren are not true, but then again last year the cars never seemed to be identical, do the other top teams run like this, I don't think so, so are McLaren truely a top team, I don't recall them running like this when Hamilton was there apart from the 2009 season when they were trying to improve the silver donkey.

Maybe It's unfortunate that Alonso always finds himself is this position were teams don't back their drivers equally, maybe questions should be asked more about how McLaren themselves are operating in terms of fairness to drivers if the stories are true?

Also there maybe some truth in Mercedes and Ferrari not wanting to upset the apple cart, but stories surrounding Alonso often talk of burnt bridges.


Alonso has driven for 3 serious F1 teams. Two of them resigned him. he can't be that awful. Vandoorne and Alonso ran the same car in almost every race last season.

I wouldn't argue against him being the best driver on the grid but the guy is political within a team, the 2 teams were on downers when they resigned him, both had fallen into the midfield and both needed him to try and resurrect themselves, however both Mercedes and Ferrari who have worked with him in the past, don't want him.

Apparently Vandoorne has recently felt the need to say that McLaren know his true performance and it's not what the outside world sees, that doesn't sound like equal cars?


It seems strange to jump to that conclusion. He could mean anything.

Hell, it could even mean that McLaren know that Alonso's so good he makes Vandoorne look a lot worse than he is. That sounds equally as likely to me.

Sorry I counted on my scatter brain memory, for what he said exactly:-

Quote:
About the comparison with Fernando. Fernando is one of the best drivers on the grid so if he's close to him that would mean he's doing a good job. He still thinks it's a good thing for his career to be next to Fernando. Asked about the pretty big difference between both this year, he says that gap looks bigger from the outside than from the inside. It isn't always what it looks like. He says he's not that far off and the team knows that.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 4th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah I think there is more of a point now for Alonso, he's keen to point out his position in the WDC and I think the goal for him is to win the mini WDC, best of the rest behind the top 3 teams.

Maybe the stories coming out from McLaren are not true, but then again last year the cars never seemed to be identical, do the other top teams run like this, I don't think so, so are McLaren truely a top team, I don't recall them running like this when Hamilton was there apart from the 2009 season when they were trying to improve the silver donkey.

Maybe It's unfortunate that Alonso always finds himself is this position were teams don't back their drivers equally, maybe questions should be asked more about how McLaren themselves are operating in terms of fairness to drivers if the stories are true?

Also there maybe some truth in Mercedes and Ferrari not wanting to upset the apple cart, but stories surrounding Alonso often talk of burnt bridges.


Alonso has driven for 3 serious F1 teams. Two of them resigned him. he can't be that awful. Vandoorne and Alonso ran the same car in almost every race last season.

I wouldn't argue against him being the best driver on the grid but the guy is political within a team, the 2 teams were on downers when they resigned him, both had fallen into the midfield and both needed him to try and resurrect themselves, however both Mercedes and Ferrari who have worked with him in the past, don't want him.

Apparently Vandoorne has recently felt the need to say that McLaren know his true performance and it's not what the outside world sees, that doesn't sound like equal cars?


It seems strange to jump to that conclusion. He could mean anything.

Hell, it could even mean that McLaren know that Alonso's so good he makes Vandoorne look a lot worse than he is. That sounds equally as likely to me.

Sorry I counted on my scatter brain memory, for what he said exactly:-

Quote:
About the comparison with Fernando. Fernando is one of the best drivers on the grid so if he's close to him that would mean he's doing a good job. He still thinks it's a good thing for his career to be next to Fernando. Asked about the pretty big difference between both this year, he says that gap looks bigger from the outside than from the inside. It isn't always what it looks like. He says he's not that far off and the team knows that.


Where is the quote from? It's odd, it seems to change from third to first person half way through.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:57 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Alonso has driven for 3 serious F1 teams. Two of them resigned him. he can't be that awful. Vandoorne and Alonso ran the same car in almost every race last season.

I wouldn't argue against him being the best driver on the grid but the guy is political within a team, the 2 teams were on downers when they resigned him, both had fallen into the midfield and both needed him to try and resurrect themselves, however both Mercedes and Ferrari who have worked with him in the past, don't want him.

Apparently Vandoorne has recently felt the need to say that McLaren know his true performance and it's not what the outside world sees, that doesn't sound like equal cars?


It seems strange to jump to that conclusion. He could mean anything.

Hell, it could even mean that McLaren know that Alonso's so good he makes Vandoorne look a lot worse than he is. That sounds equally as likely to me.

Sorry I counted on my scatter brain memory, for what he said exactly:-

Quote:
About the comparison with Fernando. Fernando is one of the best drivers on the grid so if he's close to him that would mean he's doing a good job. He still thinks it's a good thing for his career to be next to Fernando. Asked about the pretty big difference between both this year, he says that gap looks bigger from the outside than from the inside. It isn't always what it looks like. He says he's not that far off and the team knows that.


Where is the quote from? It's odd, it seems to change from third to first person half way through.

It's someone repeating what he said, I put it in quotes to save typing it all myself, I believe it's a Dutch source so it's been translated to English.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:02 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

And there is a point now?

There's 5 bigger budget teams.

The one he's at.
The one that said they would have him when they have a competitive car.
The one that say they still have the hump over Spygate 10yrs ago and also had a toxic driver line up recently so probably don't fancy another.
The one he left not long ago with consent but still broke contract with.
And the one who prefer their own talent pool.


I'm sure there's lots of reasons why they (The big 3) don't want Alonso, being perfectly happy with their current line ups surely the most obvious. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari seem to fancy going down the Red Bull route of putting two top 5 drivers next to each other, not even the perfectly nice Danny Ricc who doesn't look likely to get a look in either.

Unless he's got a reputation I don't know about?


Maybe it also has to do with the fact that he has failed to help develop cars in a meaningful manner for years now. I know you disagree with this, but I believe there might be something to that. The Ferraris he drove had tremendous resources behind them but they went nowhere, always going backwards as the season progressed. The Mclarens he's driving now had very good resources behind them but aren't looking like they will challenge for wins or championships any time soon, despite the Honda exit. Also curious is how he is consistently miles ahead of his teammates since he joined Ferrari. Two of his teammates were world champions, one almost won a world championship and the other dominated in his junior career. Yet Alonso made them all look like chumps. The only teammate that put up a decent fight was Jenson Button in his first year with Alonso. Why do I get the feeling that the cars are developped and designed to suit Alonso, and Alonso only, as opposed to being faster than the competition? It seems everyone has trouble driving Alonso's cars. I don't think he's doing that on purpose, but he has such a unique driving style, which has been well documented. So maybe what suits alonso is not what will actually help you win championships? I don't know. Just an old theory I've seen thrown around before and I find myself agreeing with it more and more.


The only Alonso affecting development story I think holds any water is the same as Schumacherls in that they are too good in driving around issues to develop in any meaningful way. The problem with this theory though is that he was Renault and Michelin test/development driver and was praised by both and we saw Renault improve.

I think people look at the teams he's in as big resourceful teams like you mention Ferrari without actually digging into what was going on at that time within those teams. His last two in particular are just right place at the wrong time. Take Ferrari post testing ban. They didn't invest in as many simulation tools as McLaren because they had Fiorano. When Pat Fry arrived he was shocked at the infrastructure at Maranello compared to McLaren at the time. They didn't fix their wind tunnel for example until the back end of 2012. 2 and a half years into Alonso's stay.

When Sergio took over in 2014 he spent 100's of millions on new buildings,new dyno's and the big full chassis dyno from AVL that only Red Bull and Mercedes had but all that came a year after Alonso left.

And now McLaren. The same team Fry used as the example of cutting edge but now Alonso's there and what don't they have? The 50m AVL full chassis dyno that allows testing 24/7. They've become out of date literally as Alonso joined. Honda had one they could use last year and I think the loss of access to that has hurt their chassis this year.

It's hard to develop cars without working wind tunnels and out of date equipment no matter who you are, even if I did buy the role of current drivers pushing development which as you say I don't. And I certainly don't buy the he deliberately makes cars his team mates can't drive instead of making them competitive baloney.

What bit of Alonso's character do people really believe he'd rather chose getting one over his random team mate over winning races and championships, it's nonsense. He's done some pretty cutthroat things to get a competitive edge yes, but that's always with the ultimate goal of winning, not just beating his team mate.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I was a little surprised Sainz fought Max so hard to be fair so it is pretty common for drivers or teams to fight some harder than others otherwise it wouldn't have surprised me.

I think we were talking about it another thread recently where this goes on, not just with those with ties through engine supply or driver programmes but also just driver preference and I used the way Alonso always waves Lewis through when being lapped but fights Seb like he stole his last rolo as an example.

I don't like it but it's pretty common for lots of reasons.

Schumacher waved Vettel by in the 2012 title decider.


Yep as did Dan and more importantly Jev who is a monster in the wet and would've been a nightmare to pass for everyone else like he was for Rosberg in Hungary in 2014.

But them's the perks I guess.

Indeed but now apparently it's a big issue?


Well, for some of us it WAS a big issue then... To the extent that among all the instances of RBR and TR coordination in such tight championships as 2010 and 2012 there's a enough weight of evidence to claim those titles as suspect.

The fact that it has been glossed over because FIA and Bernie needed Red Bull's money doesn't make it better...


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:32 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well that's just part of it, I wouldn't be a lover of how Alonso operates within a team.


Oh that much is clear. But it's how you believe he operates based on rumours and second hand info to be clear, unless you've got something to tell us about your own experiences with how he operates within a team?

I don't recall his last team mate having an issue with how he operates within the team for example and there are as many stories out there from ex-colleagues praising it as you'll find criticising it.

Well the last 3 years I guess there was not much point but how he acts within a team seems to prevent the top teams from signing him, that seems quite real.


And there is a point now?

There's 5 bigger budget teams.

The one he's at.
The one that said they would have him when they have a competitive car.
The one that say they still have the hump over Spygate 10yrs ago and also had a toxic driver line up recently so probably don't fancy another.
The one he left not long ago with consent but still broke contract with.
And the one who prefer their own talent pool.


I'm sure there's lots of reasons why they (The big 3) don't want Alonso, being perfectly happy with their current line ups surely the most obvious. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari seem to fancy going down the Red Bull route of putting two top 5 drivers next to each other, not even the perfectly nice Danny Ricc who doesn't look likely to get a look in either.

Unless he's got a reputation I don't know about?

Yeah I think there is more of a point now for Alonso, he's keen to point out his position in the WDC and I think the goal for him is to win the mini WDC, best of the rest behind the top 3 teams.

Maybe the stories coming out from McLaren are not true, but then again last year the cars never seemed to be identical, do the other top teams run like this, I don't think so, so are McLaren truely a top team, I don't recall them running like this when Hamilton was there apart from the 2009 season when they were trying to improve the silver donkey.

Maybe It's unfortunate that Alonso always finds himself is this position were teams don't back their drivers equally, maybe questions should be asked more about how McLaren themselves are operating in terms of fairness to drivers if the stories are true?

Also there maybe some truth in Mercedes and Ferrari not wanting to upset the apple cart, but stories surrounding Alonso often talk of burnt bridges.


He seemed just as keen in the McHonda years to do that so I still don't see what's different?

The story from Stoff was about Monaco and the front wing, they only had two so both went to Alonso. They do that in case of damage so they don't have to start again with set up work. You might recall them doing it with a floor last year in Monaco with JB and Stoff where Stoff wrote his off so they took JB's away from him and he got a penalty so now both parts go to one driver.

Last year they alternated until the Americas. Stoff had engine advantages in China,Austria and Baku. Alonso had chassis advantages in Australia,Malaysia,US and Mexico.

McLaren only didn't run this policy with JB-Lewis and JB-Alonso. Lewis had full number 1 status against Kova. He got fuel preference in 90% of the quali's and got every new part first, both years.

They do talk of burnt bridges but they did so with both teams he returned to as well funnily enough and I still don't recall Danny burning any bridges and he doesn't look like getting a seat at Merc/Ferrari either. It's almost like they're both perfectly happy with their No.1-2 situation rather than stick another rooster in there.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Agree - Alonso should spend more time in the wind tunnel designing these cars.

When he first joined McLaren some of his supporters actually believed he was doing such things, the 6 tenths he brings.


Not his supporters. Alonso himself said over a winter he could help make 5-6ths improvement to a team's car (pretty standard amount to gain over a winter) and that got twisted into the whole I bring 6ths, I'm 6ths faster than anyone else, and every other version under the sun and now apparently it was his fans that said it/claimed it/believed it or whatever.

Got to love the British press and the Internet.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:43 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Alonso has driven for 3 serious F1 teams. Two of them resigned him. he can't be that awful. Vandoorne and Alonso ran the same car in almost every race last season.

I wouldn't argue against him being the best driver on the grid but the guy is political within a team, the 2 teams were on downers when they resigned him, both had fallen into the midfield and both needed him to try and resurrect themselves, however both Mercedes and Ferrari who have worked with him in the past, don't want him.

Apparently Vandoorne has recently felt the need to say that McLaren know his true performance and it's not what the outside world sees, that doesn't sound like equal cars?


It seems strange to jump to that conclusion. He could mean anything.

Hell, it could even mean that McLaren know that Alonso's so good he makes Vandoorne look a lot worse than he is. That sounds equally as likely to me.

Sorry I counted on my scatter brain memory, for what he said exactly:-

Quote:
About the comparison with Fernando. Fernando is one of the best drivers on the grid so if he's close to him that would mean he's doing a good job. He still thinks it's a good thing for his career to be next to Fernando. Asked about the pretty big difference between both this year, he says that gap looks bigger from the outside than from the inside. It isn't always what it looks like. He says he's not that far off and the team knows that.


Where is the quote from? It's odd, it seems to change from third to first person half way through.


It's a translation from an Interview with a Dutch publication.

Shamelessly lifting a post from Skavland on AS here's the highlights...



For the non-Dutch speakers, some interesting things he said (roughly translated):



- He's disappointed and annoyed cause he knows there was way more possible with the car (6th or 7th), without the gearbox problems.

- Asked if he's under a lot of pressure, he says there's always pressure and he's not feeling more now.

- About the team, the beginning of the season wasn't as expected but he emphasizes the fact that it's way better than last year at the same time (pointswise, engine wise). They're not better than the end of last season, but McLaren develops fast. Since Barcelona they have a clear vision about how they want to develop the car. He thinks that will pay off in the next couple of races.

- He has a longterm deal with McLaren. He know that contracts doesn't mean **** in F1 if the performance isn't there, but he still thinks he's the future of the team. He's not worried (obviously he wouldn't say if he was). He wants to keep working and be ready for the day when McLaren does have a competitive car. Asked about Lando Norris being a threat, he says it's way too early to think about that.

- About the comparison with Fernando. Fernando is one of the best drivers on the grid so if he's close to him that would mean he's doing a good job. He still thinks it's a good thing for his career to be next to Fernando. Asked about the pretty big difference between both this year, he says that gap looks bigger from the outside than from the inside. It isn't always what it looks like. He says he's not that far off and the team knows that.

- Asked about he rumors telling Fernando has newer parts on his car this race (same looking front wing but some other materials), he says that it is true that Fernando has some new parts that he doesn't have, but they shouldn't make to much difference.

- Asked about media perceptions and rumors saying Vandoorne won't make it to the end of the season, again he says he isn't worried (his face doesn't look too good though :D ). It's not like he lost his talent all of a sudden. He thinks the experts and guys who have something to say in the sport still think he has a lot of talent.

- Asked about people saying he needs to go to another team, he says he's still thinks he's on his place at McLaren and that they will have a competitive car in the future. But just like every other drive he won't wait 10 years (It's not like he has something to say about it if he doesn't perform better, but yeah ambition and stuff).

http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/videozone/1.3203799

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:48 pm 
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For me he's talking about the times the car is different yeah but he's not saying it's always different at all. Like I said in a previous post, he has no trouble letting us know when he doesn't have an equal car. Monaco the latest example and Oz and the America's leg last year the other examples. Even Zak tells everyone when the car is different.

I'm sure some would love to turn that into it's always different but there's no indication it is at all.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well that's just part of it, I wouldn't be a lover of how Alonso operates within a team.


Oh that much is clear. But it's how you believe he operates based on rumours and second hand info to be clear, unless you've got something to tell us about your own experiences with how he operates within a team?

I don't recall his last team mate having an issue with how he operates within the team for example and there are as many stories out there from ex-colleagues praising it as you'll find criticising it.

Well the last 3 years I guess there was not much point but how he acts within a team seems to prevent the top teams from signing him, that seems quite real.


And there is a point now?

There's 5 bigger budget teams.

The one he's at.
The one that said they would have him when they have a competitive car.
The one that say they still have the hump over Spygate 10yrs ago and also had a toxic driver line up recently so probably don't fancy another.
The one he left not long ago with consent but still broke contract with.
And the one who prefer their own talent pool.


I'm sure there's lots of reasons why they (The big 3) don't want Alonso, being perfectly happy with their current line ups surely the most obvious. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari seem to fancy going down the Red Bull route of putting two top 5 drivers next to each other, not even the perfectly nice Danny Ricc who doesn't look likely to get a look in either.

Unless he's got a reputation I don't know about?

Yeah I think there is more of a point now for Alonso, he's keen to point out his position in the WDC and I think the goal for him is to win the mini WDC, best of the rest behind the top 3 teams.

Maybe the stories coming out from McLaren are not true, but then again last year the cars never seemed to be identical, do the other top teams run like this, I don't think so, so are McLaren truely a top team, I don't recall them running like this when Hamilton was there apart from the 2009 season when they were trying to improve the silver donkey.

Maybe It's unfortunate that Alonso always finds himself is this position were teams don't back their drivers equally, maybe questions should be asked more about how McLaren themselves are operating in terms of fairness to drivers if the stories are true?

Also there maybe some truth in Mercedes and Ferrari not wanting to upset the apple cart, but stories surrounding Alonso often talk of burnt bridges.


From what I know Alonso is the only driver in a long time to have been able to come back to two teams. Talk about burnt bridges...


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:48 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Oh that much is clear. But it's how you believe he operates based on rumours and second hand info to be clear, unless you've got something to tell us about your own experiences with how he operates within a team?

I don't recall his last team mate having an issue with how he operates within the team for example and there are as many stories out there from ex-colleagues praising it as you'll find criticising it.

Well the last 3 years I guess there was not much point but how he acts within a team seems to prevent the top teams from signing him, that seems quite real.


And there is a point now?

There's 5 bigger budget teams.

The one he's at.
The one that said they would have him when they have a competitive car.
The one that say they still have the hump over Spygate 10yrs ago and also had a toxic driver line up recently so probably don't fancy another.
The one he left not long ago with consent but still broke contract with.
And the one who prefer their own talent pool.


I'm sure there's lots of reasons why they (The big 3) don't want Alonso, being perfectly happy with their current line ups surely the most obvious. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari seem to fancy going down the Red Bull route of putting two top 5 drivers next to each other, not even the perfectly nice Danny Ricc who doesn't look likely to get a look in either.

Unless he's got a reputation I don't know about?

Yeah I think there is more of a point now for Alonso, he's keen to point out his position in the WDC and I think the goal for him is to win the mini WDC, best of the rest behind the top 3 teams.

Maybe the stories coming out from McLaren are not true, but then again last year the cars never seemed to be identical, do the other top teams run like this, I don't think so, so are McLaren truely a top team, I don't recall them running like this when Hamilton was there apart from the 2009 season when they were trying to improve the silver donkey.

Maybe It's unfortunate that Alonso always finds himself is this position were teams don't back their drivers equally, maybe questions should be asked more about how McLaren themselves are operating in terms of fairness to drivers if the stories are true?

Also there maybe some truth in Mercedes and Ferrari not wanting to upset the apple cart, but stories surrounding Alonso often talk of burnt bridges.


He seemed just as keen in the McHonda years to do that so I still don't see what's different?

The story from Stoff was about Monaco and the front wing, they only had two so both went to Alonso. They do that in case of damage so they don't have to start again with set up work. You might recall them doing it with a floor last year in Monaco with JB and Stoff where Stoff wrote his off so they took JB's away from him and he got a penalty so now both parts go to one driver.

Last year they alternated until the Americas. Stoff had engine advantages in China,Austria and Baku. Alonso had chassis advantages in Australia,Malaysia,US and Mexico.

McLaren only didn't run this policy with JB-Lewis and JB-Alonso. Lewis had full number 1 status against Kova. He got fuel preference in 90% of the quali's and got every new part first, both years.

They do talk of burnt bridges but they did so with both teams he returned to as well funnily enough and I still don't recall Danny burning any bridges and he doesn't look like getting a seat at Merc/Ferrari either. It's almost like they're both perfectly happy with their No.1-2 situation rather than stick another rooster in there.

The gist of it all seems that Alonso gets all the new parts first now so the performance differential is exaggerated which seems to be what Vandoorne is saying.

I can understand what you say about set up issues but you don't get a penalty for putting a different kind of front wing on, when comparing with Heikki I know this happened in 2009 when they were rushing new developments because the car started out so bad but also the writing was on the wall for Heikki at that point, are McLaren starting to write Vandoorne off?

Regarding Ferrari and Mercedes they could be very well be happy with the status quo with the drivers but still Ricciardo is mooted as a possibility whereas Alonso is not.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:52 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Agree - Alonso should spend more time in the wind tunnel designing these cars.

When he first joined McLaren some of his supporters actually believed he was doing such things, the 6 tenths he brings.


Not his supporters. Alonso himself said over a winter he could help make 5-6ths improvement to a team's car (pretty standard amount to gain over a winter) and that got twisted into the whole I bring 6ths, I'm 6ths faster than anyone else, and every other version under the sun and now apparently it was his fans that said it/claimed it/believed it or whatever.

Got to love the British press and the Internet.

No he was interviewed during the Silverstone GP then he said that he brought 6 tenths to the team and maybe McLaren are not respecting that, this being he should be leading the team driver wise.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:03 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
For me he's talking about the times the car is different yeah but he's not saying it's always different at all. Like I said in a previous post, he has no trouble letting us know when he doesn't have an equal car. Monaco the latest example and Oz and the America's leg last year the other examples. Even Zak tells everyone when the car is different.

I'm sure some would love to turn that into it's always different but there's no indication it is at all.

I don't think he is only talking about just 1 race when he says the gap isn't always as big as it looks, being Alonso's teammate is difficult as it is, sometimes having an inferior car makes it even more difficult, do other teams operate like this?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:06 am 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Oh that much is clear. But it's how you believe he operates based on rumours and second hand info to be clear, unless you've got something to tell us about your own experiences with how he operates within a team?

I don't recall his last team mate having an issue with how he operates within the team for example and there are as many stories out there from ex-colleagues praising it as you'll find criticising it.

Well the last 3 years I guess there was not much point but how he acts within a team seems to prevent the top teams from signing him, that seems quite real.


And there is a point now?

There's 5 bigger budget teams.

The one he's at.
The one that said they would have him when they have a competitive car.
The one that say they still have the hump over Spygate 10yrs ago and also had a toxic driver line up recently so probably don't fancy another.
The one he left not long ago with consent but still broke contract with.
And the one who prefer their own talent pool.


I'm sure there's lots of reasons why they (The big 3) don't want Alonso, being perfectly happy with their current line ups surely the most obvious. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari seem to fancy going down the Red Bull route of putting two top 5 drivers next to each other, not even the perfectly nice Danny Ricc who doesn't look likely to get a look in either.

Unless he's got a reputation I don't know about?

Yeah I think there is more of a point now for Alonso, he's keen to point out his position in the WDC and I think the goal for him is to win the mini WDC, best of the rest behind the top 3 teams.

Maybe the stories coming out from McLaren are not true, but then again last year the cars never seemed to be identical, do the other top teams run like this, I don't think so, so are McLaren truely a top team, I don't recall them running like this when Hamilton was there apart from the 2009 season when they were trying to improve the silver donkey.

Maybe It's unfortunate that Alonso always finds himself is this position were teams don't back their drivers equally, maybe questions should be asked more about how McLaren themselves are operating in terms of fairness to drivers if the stories are true?

Also there maybe some truth in Mercedes and Ferrari not wanting to upset the apple cart, but stories surrounding Alonso often talk of burnt bridges.


From what I know Alonso is the only driver in a long time to have been able to come back to two teams. Talk about burnt bridges...

Back to two what are basically midfield teams, also I believe it was Honda in particular that wanted Alonso, they paid his wages after all.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:35 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well the last 3 years I guess there was not much point but how he acts within a team seems to prevent the top teams from signing him, that seems quite real.


And there is a point now?

There's 5 bigger budget teams.

The one he's at.
The one that said they would have him when they have a competitive car.
The one that say they still have the hump over Spygate 10yrs ago and also had a toxic driver line up recently so probably don't fancy another.
The one he left not long ago with consent but still broke contract with.
And the one who prefer their own talent pool.


I'm sure there's lots of reasons why they (The big 3) don't want Alonso, being perfectly happy with their current line ups surely the most obvious. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari seem to fancy going down the Red Bull route of putting two top 5 drivers next to each other, not even the perfectly nice Danny Ricc who doesn't look likely to get a look in either.

Unless he's got a reputation I don't know about?

Yeah I think there is more of a point now for Alonso, he's keen to point out his position in the WDC and I think the goal for him is to win the mini WDC, best of the rest behind the top 3 teams.

Maybe the stories coming out from McLaren are not true, but then again last year the cars never seemed to be identical, do the other top teams run like this, I don't think so, so are McLaren truely a top team, I don't recall them running like this when Hamilton was there apart from the 2009 season when they were trying to improve the silver donkey.

Maybe It's unfortunate that Alonso always finds himself is this position were teams don't back their drivers equally, maybe questions should be asked more about how McLaren themselves are operating in terms of fairness to drivers if the stories are true?

Also there maybe some truth in Mercedes and Ferrari not wanting to upset the apple cart, but stories surrounding Alonso often talk of burnt bridges.


He seemed just as keen in the McHonda years to do that so I still don't see what's different?

The story from Stoff was about Monaco and the front wing, they only had two so both went to Alonso. They do that in case of damage so they don't have to start again with set up work. You might recall them doing it with a floor last year in Monaco with JB and Stoff where Stoff wrote his off so they took JB's away from him and he got a penalty so now both parts go to one driver.

Last year they alternated until the Americas. Stoff had engine advantages in China,Austria and Baku. Alonso had chassis advantages in Australia,Malaysia,US and Mexico.

McLaren only didn't run this policy with JB-Lewis and JB-Alonso. Lewis had full number 1 status against Kova. He got fuel preference in 90% of the quali's and got every new part first, both years.

They do talk of burnt bridges but they did so with both teams he returned to as well funnily enough and I still don't recall Danny burning any bridges and he doesn't look like getting a seat at Merc/Ferrari either. It's almost like they're both perfectly happy with their No.1-2 situation rather than stick another rooster in there.

The gist of it all seems that Alonso gets all the new parts first now so the performance differential is exaggerated which seems to be what Vandoorne is saying.

I can understand what you say about set up issues but you don't get a penalty for putting a different kind of front wing on, when comparing with Heikki I know this happened in 2009 when they were rushing new developments because the car started out so bad but also the writing was on the wall for Heikki at that point, are McLaren starting to write Vandoorne off?

Regarding Ferrari and Mercedes they could be very well be happy with the status quo with the drivers but still Ricciardo is mooted as a possibility whereas Alonso is not.


That's the gist for Monaco and some races at the end of last year yeah. Except he also said it won't make too much difference (the Monaco part) so it's a little contradictory.

No penalty for front wing but you would still have to change everything behind the front wing as that is what dictates the air flow. It's a nightmare so both go to the same driver. It happened with Heikki both years according to him, he never received a new part first and was giving the worse fuel strategy in something like 28 out of 35 quali sessions or something like that. I thought you kept quali data so you can correct me if it's wrong. I can't speak for McLaren's state of mind on Stoff but it doesn't sound like he's getting written off.

Talk is cheap, we'll see where Dan ends up. I hope he ends up at either but I'm just not convinced they or the drivers there are interested in changing it up.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:19 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Agree - Alonso should spend more time in the wind tunnel designing these cars.

When he first joined McLaren some of his supporters actually believed he was doing such things, the 6 tenths he brings.


Not his supporters. Alonso himself said over a winter he could help make 5-6ths improvement to a team's car (pretty standard amount to gain over a winter) and that got twisted into the whole I bring 6ths, I'm 6ths faster than anyone else, and every other version under the sun and now apparently it was his fans that said it/claimed it/believed it or whatever.

Got to love the British press and the Internet.

No he was interviewed during the Silverstone GP then he said that he brought 6 tenths to the team and maybe McLaren are not respecting that, this being he should be leading the team driver wise.


It was an interview in Spanish between Hungary and Turkey where he talked about from driving the car in December to driving it in Australia and that those 6ths he helped bring aren't being respected in his fight with Lewis.

Yes it's a nudge or a poke about having his No.1 status revoked. The translated British article left it a little unclear as it says...

Quote:
"My belief is that last year McLaren were nowhere,” he said.

“I remember how the car was going when I tested it in December and how it went in Australia.

“Those sixth tenths of a second that I have brought when I got in the car for the first time haven’t been reflected at any time when we two drivers have been competing against each other.

“That is basically the quarrel I have had for the whole season but who doesn’t have problems with their boss?”

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-moto ... 6920070825

Which because he had half a second on Lewis in testing on the Michelins, got interpreted as the 6ths he brought (over Lewis) had suddenly disappeared.

Was it (the 6ths he had over Lewis) not being reflected in results between them, or is it (the 6ths he brought to the car) not being reflected in the treatment he's received from the team.

The beginning of the quote suggests the latter but it really needs a "from" between brought and when in the second part of the quote to make it clearer.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:27 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
For me he's talking about the times the car is different yeah but he's not saying it's always different at all. Like I said in a previous post, he has no trouble letting us know when he doesn't have an equal car. Monaco the latest example and Oz and the America's leg last year the other examples. Even Zak tells everyone when the car is different.

I'm sure some would love to turn that into it's always different but there's no indication it is at all.

I don't think he is only talking about just 1 race when he says the gap isn't always as big as it looks, being Alonso's teammate is difficult as it is, sometimes having an inferior car makes it even more difficult, do other teams operate like this?


No, I'd imagine he's talking about the other times at the end of last year it happened as well.

Well there's talk of only Gasly getting the Honda upgrade and Red Bull at least used to employ a whoever's highest in the table gets the new stuff first if only one can be brought. No idea about this year but they actually broke that rule last year when Max got the one upgraded engine that Renault brought 3 of (Max,Hulk and Hartley got them) but Dan had just taken one I think. Year before that Dan got the only Renault upgrade in Monaco.

Seems more common with engine than chassis parts.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:32 am 
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pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well the last 3 years I guess there was not much point but how he acts within a team seems to prevent the top teams from signing him, that seems quite real.


And there is a point now?

There's 5 bigger budget teams.

The one he's at.
The one that said they would have him when they have a competitive car.
The one that say they still have the hump over Spygate 10yrs ago and also had a toxic driver line up recently so probably don't fancy another.
The one he left not long ago with consent but still broke contract with.
And the one who prefer their own talent pool.


I'm sure there's lots of reasons why they (The big 3) don't want Alonso, being perfectly happy with their current line ups surely the most obvious. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari seem to fancy going down the Red Bull route of putting two top 5 drivers next to each other, not even the perfectly nice Danny Ricc who doesn't look likely to get a look in either.

Unless he's got a reputation I don't know about?

Yeah I think there is more of a point now for Alonso, he's keen to point out his position in the WDC and I think the goal for him is to win the mini WDC, best of the rest behind the top 3 teams.

Maybe the stories coming out from McLaren are not true, but then again last year the cars never seemed to be identical, do the other top teams run like this, I don't think so, so are McLaren truely a top team, I don't recall them running like this when Hamilton was there apart from the 2009 season when they were trying to improve the silver donkey.

Maybe It's unfortunate that Alonso always finds himself is this position were teams don't back their drivers equally, maybe questions should be asked more about how McLaren themselves are operating in terms of fairness to drivers if the stories are true?

Also there maybe some truth in Mercedes and Ferrari not wanting to upset the apple cart, but stories surrounding Alonso often talk of burnt bridges.


From what I know Alonso is the only driver in a long time to have been able to come back to two teams. Talk about burnt bridges...

Back to two what are basically midfield teams, also I believe it was Honda in particular that wanted Alonso, they paid his wages after all.


If McLaren were midfield when he joined then Ferrari were midfield when he left too. No-one was thinking they were a midfield outfit back then rather than a team with good reasons to have struggled recently with no Mercedes help in 2014 and poor decision to start a new concept when everyone else had well developed ones in 2013.

Hindsight is wonderful but no chance they were viewed as midfield then. And Honda contributing to wages was never confirmed.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:08 am 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

Oh that much is clear. But it's how you believe he operates based on rumours and second hand info to be clear, unless you've got something to tell us about your own experiences with how he operates within a team?

I don't recall his last team mate having an issue with how he operates within the team for example and there are as many stories out there from ex-colleagues praising it as you'll find criticising it.

Well the last 3 years I guess there was not much point but how he acts within a team seems to prevent the top teams from signing him, that seems quite real.


And there is a point now?

There's 5 bigger budget teams.

The one he's at.
The one that said they would have him when they have a competitive car.
The one that say they still have the hump over Spygate 10yrs ago and also had a toxic driver line up recently so probably don't fancy another.
The one he left not long ago with consent but still broke contract with.
And the one who prefer their own talent pool.


I'm sure there's lots of reasons why they (The big 3) don't want Alonso, being perfectly happy with their current line ups surely the most obvious. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari seem to fancy going down the Red Bull route of putting two top 5 drivers next to each other, not even the perfectly nice Danny Ricc who doesn't look likely to get a look in either.

Unless he's got a reputation I don't know about?

Yeah I think there is more of a point now for Alonso, he's keen to point out his position in the WDC and I think the goal for him is to win the mini WDC, best of the rest behind the top 3 teams.

Maybe the stories coming out from McLaren are not true, but then again last year the cars never seemed to be identical, do the other top teams run like this, I don't think so, so are McLaren truely a top team, I don't recall them running like this when Hamilton was there apart from the 2009 season when they were trying to improve the silver donkey.

Maybe It's unfortunate that Alonso always finds himself is this position were teams don't back their drivers equally, maybe questions should be asked more about how McLaren themselves are operating in terms of fairness to drivers if the stories are true?

Also there maybe some truth in Mercedes and Ferrari not wanting to upset the apple cart, but stories surrounding Alonso often talk of burnt bridges.


From what I know Alonso is the only driver in a long time to have been able to come back to two teams. Talk about burnt bridges...

Very rarely drivers would even like to return to some team they've been at before, it's not that they couldn't. Why would Hamilton want to go back to McLaren, or Bottas back to Williams? I bet they'd be able to but it'd be a negative career trajectory...

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 3:46 pm 
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Ok, I have a question regarding Monaco GP. I thought the monkey seats were banned for 2018, yet I am sure I spotted them in a few cars, the RB's if I'm not mistaken.

Does anyone know what's the deal?


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:11 pm 
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Posts: 26063
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
And there is a point now?

There's 5 bigger budget teams.

The one he's at.
The one that said they would have him when they have a competitive car.
The one that say they still have the hump over Spygate 10yrs ago and also had a toxic driver line up recently so probably don't fancy another.
The one he left not long ago with consent but still broke contract with.
And the one who prefer their own talent pool.


I'm sure there's lots of reasons why they (The big 3) don't want Alonso, being perfectly happy with their current line ups surely the most obvious. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari seem to fancy going down the Red Bull route of putting two top 5 drivers next to each other, not even the perfectly nice Danny Ricc who doesn't look likely to get a look in either.

Unless he's got a reputation I don't know about?

Yeah I think there is more of a point now for Alonso, he's keen to point out his position in the WDC and I think the goal for him is to win the mini WDC, best of the rest behind the top 3 teams.

Maybe the stories coming out from McLaren are not true, but then again last year the cars never seemed to be identical, do the other top teams run like this, I don't think so, so are McLaren truely a top team, I don't recall them running like this when Hamilton was there apart from the 2009 season when they were trying to improve the silver donkey.

Maybe It's unfortunate that Alonso always finds himself is this position were teams don't back their drivers equally, maybe questions should be asked more about how McLaren themselves are operating in terms of fairness to drivers if the stories are true?

Also there maybe some truth in Mercedes and Ferrari not wanting to upset the apple cart, but stories surrounding Alonso often talk of burnt bridges.


He seemed just as keen in the McHonda years to do that so I still don't see what's different?

The story from Stoff was about Monaco and the front wing, they only had two so both went to Alonso. They do that in case of damage so they don't have to start again with set up work. You might recall them doing it with a floor last year in Monaco with JB and Stoff where Stoff wrote his off so they took JB's away from him and he got a penalty so now both parts go to one driver.

Last year they alternated until the Americas. Stoff had engine advantages in China,Austria and Baku. Alonso had chassis advantages in Australia,Malaysia,US and Mexico.

McLaren only didn't run this policy with JB-Lewis and JB-Alonso. Lewis had full number 1 status against Kova. He got fuel preference in 90% of the quali's and got every new part first, both years.

They do talk of burnt bridges but they did so with both teams he returned to as well funnily enough and I still don't recall Danny burning any bridges and he doesn't look like getting a seat at Merc/Ferrari either. It's almost like they're both perfectly happy with their No.1-2 situation rather than stick another rooster in there.

The gist of it all seems that Alonso gets all the new parts first now so the performance differential is exaggerated which seems to be what Vandoorne is saying.

I can understand what you say about set up issues but you don't get a penalty for putting a different kind of front wing on, when comparing with Heikki I know this happened in 2009 when they were rushing new developments because the car started out so bad but also the writing was on the wall for Heikki at that point, are McLaren starting to write Vandoorne off?

Regarding Ferrari and Mercedes they could be very well be happy with the status quo with the drivers but still Ricciardo is mooted as a possibility whereas Alonso is not.


That's the gist for Monaco and some races at the end of last year yeah. Except he also said it won't make too much difference (the Monaco part) so it's a little contradictory.

No penalty for front wing but you would still have to change everything behind the front wing as that is what dictates the air flow. It's a nightmare so both go to the same driver. It happened with Heikki both years according to him, he never received a new part first and was giving the worse fuel strategy in something like 28 out of 35 quali sessions or something like that. I thought you kept quali data so you can correct me if it's wrong. I can't speak for McLaren's state of mind on Stoff but it doesn't sound like he's getting written off.

Talk is cheap, we'll see where Dan ends up. I hope he ends up at either but I'm just not convinced they or the drivers there are interested in changing it up.

The front wing was worth 1 to 2 tenths, Vandoorne was out qualified by 0.177s, it does make quite a difference.

As for the Heikki situation all I can say is thank the Lord race fuel qualifying no longer exists, I'm not aware this happened in 2008 but his qualifying was always strong, however in the race he was often a second a lap slower than Hamilton, this was when team orders were not allowed and McLaren I think decided they couldn't risk Heikki starting in front of Hamilton.

Anyway it seems that Vandoorne is still wanted and his situation is understood.

http://www.onestopstrategy.com/article/ ... +seat.html

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:23 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Agree - Alonso should spend more time in the wind tunnel designing these cars.

When he first joined McLaren some of his supporters actually believed he was doing such things, the 6 tenths he brings.


Not his supporters. Alonso himself said over a winter he could help make 5-6ths improvement to a team's car (pretty standard amount to gain over a winter) and that got twisted into the whole I bring 6ths, I'm 6ths faster than anyone else, and every other version under the sun and now apparently it was his fans that said it/claimed it/believed it or whatever.

Got to love the British press and the Internet.

No he was interviewed during the Silverstone GP then he said that he brought 6 tenths to the team and maybe McLaren are not respecting that, this being he should be leading the team driver wise.


It was an interview in Spanish between Hungary and Turkey where he talked about from driving the car in December to driving it in Australia and that those 6ths he helped bring aren't being respected in his fight with Lewis.

Yes it's a nudge or a poke about having his No.1 status revoked. The translated British article left it a little unclear as it says...

Quote:
"My belief is that last year McLaren were nowhere,” he said.

“I remember how the car was going when I tested it in December and how it went in Australia.

“Those sixth tenths of a second that I have brought when I got in the car for the first time haven’t been reflected at any time when we two drivers have been competing against each other.

“That is basically the quarrel I have had for the whole season but who doesn’t have problems with their boss?”

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-moto ... 6920070825

Which because he had half a second on Lewis in testing on the Michelins, got interpreted as the 6ths he brought (over Lewis) had suddenly disappeared.

Was it (the 6ths he had over Lewis) not being reflected in results between them, or is it (the 6ths he brought to the car) not being reflected in the treatment he's received from the team.

The beginning of the quote suggests the latter but it really needs a "from" between brought and when in the second part of the quote to make it clearer.

I think it's well known that Hamilton wasn't quick on the Michelins but they raced on the Bridgestones, this 6 tenths comparison with Hamilton really makes no sense to the performance of the 2006 McLaren because Hamilton didn't race it, the lead driver was Kimi who wasn't still there as a comparitor so Alonso's logic that in his hands the 2006 car would have been a winner because he was 6 tenths quicker than Hamilton in testing is somewhat flawed.

The reality is that in 2007 on the Bridgestones Hamilton was a match for him, I've no doubt that Dennis may well have broken a promise to Alonso about preferential treatment but then again this is my point about the politics of Alonso.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:26 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
For me he's talking about the times the car is different yeah but he's not saying it's always different at all. Like I said in a previous post, he has no trouble letting us know when he doesn't have an equal car. Monaco the latest example and Oz and the America's leg last year the other examples. Even Zak tells everyone when the car is different.

I'm sure some would love to turn that into it's always different but there's no indication it is at all.

I don't think he is only talking about just 1 race when he says the gap isn't always as big as it looks, being Alonso's teammate is difficult as it is, sometimes having an inferior car makes it even more difficult, do other teams operate like this?


No, I'd imagine he's talking about the other times at the end of last year it happened as well.

Well there's talk of only Gasly getting the Honda upgrade and Red Bull at least used to employ a whoever's highest in the table gets the new stuff first if only one can be brought. No idea about this year but they actually broke that rule last year when Max got the one upgraded engine that Renault brought 3 of (Max,Hulk and Hartley got them) but Dan had just taken one I think. Year before that Dan got the only Renault upgrade in Monaco.

Seems more common with engine than chassis parts.

Has Hartley not already had an engine blow up so he would have been on his second engine already?

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:29 pm 
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Posts: 26063
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
And there is a point now?

There's 5 bigger budget teams.

The one he's at.
The one that said they would have him when they have a competitive car.
The one that say they still have the hump over Spygate 10yrs ago and also had a toxic driver line up recently so probably don't fancy another.
The one he left not long ago with consent but still broke contract with.
And the one who prefer their own talent pool.


I'm sure there's lots of reasons why they (The big 3) don't want Alonso, being perfectly happy with their current line ups surely the most obvious. Neither Mercedes or Ferrari seem to fancy going down the Red Bull route of putting two top 5 drivers next to each other, not even the perfectly nice Danny Ricc who doesn't look likely to get a look in either.

Unless he's got a reputation I don't know about?

Yeah I think there is more of a point now for Alonso, he's keen to point out his position in the WDC and I think the goal for him is to win the mini WDC, best of the rest behind the top 3 teams.

Maybe the stories coming out from McLaren are not true, but then again last year the cars never seemed to be identical, do the other top teams run like this, I don't think so, so are McLaren truely a top team, I don't recall them running like this when Hamilton was there apart from the 2009 season when they were trying to improve the silver donkey.

Maybe It's unfortunate that Alonso always finds himself is this position were teams don't back their drivers equally, maybe questions should be asked more about how McLaren themselves are operating in terms of fairness to drivers if the stories are true?

Also there maybe some truth in Mercedes and Ferrari not wanting to upset the apple cart, but stories surrounding Alonso often talk of burnt bridges.


From what I know Alonso is the only driver in a long time to have been able to come back to two teams. Talk about burnt bridges...

Back to two what are basically midfield teams, also I believe it was Honda in particular that wanted Alonso, they paid his wages after all.


If McLaren were midfield when he joined then Ferrari were midfield when he left too. No-one was thinking they were a midfield outfit back then rather than a team with good reasons to have struggled recently with no Mercedes help in 2014 and poor decision to start a new concept when everyone else had well developed ones in 2013.

Hindsight is wonderful but no chance they were viewed as midfield then. And Honda contributing to wages was never confirmed.

Well I was specifically talking about the situation of the teams he rejoined, they were not race winners plus the teams were not overly confident about the drivers they had, so they very much needed Alonso.

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