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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 8:00 pm 
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Seeing Ocon let both Mercedes drivers by with nary a fight, it was fairly obvious that he didn't want to blot his future chances with Merc by tangling with their drivers. Post the race, he admitted he'd been ordered by Merc to let their drivers past (story here: https://www.planetf1.com/news/ocon-bows ... am-orders/). I don't buy this "they had new tyres so it was pointless fighting" line for one second - had it been one of the Ferraris or RBRs behind, you can bet your bottom dollar that they weren't getting by.

Couple of questions here:

1. Are team orders between separate teams legal? The last instance I remember was Williams letting the McLarens by at the infamous 1997 championship finale in Jerez, which (IIRC) led to the so-called "Bringing the sport into disrepute" rule.
2. Does this mean we should expect the Force Indias (and maybe Toro Rosso if they find the pace, or even Haas) to be involved in potentially deciding the championship?

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 8:26 pm 
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I don't think anything like inter-team team orders are allowed. It's called Race Fixing.

Now, I know it's probably happened between Ferrari and Sauber, Red Bull and Toro Rosso, but the difference here is, that it is being admitted!

The participant in it is essentially admitting to race fixing. Surely action needs to be taken here!


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 8:44 pm 
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Toto admitted it too


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 8:45 pm 
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The sad part is that this is now common practice. When a team depends on another team or manufacturer, a quiet whisper between team principles happens. It wasn't just Ocon and Mercedes, it was also McLaren and Renault/Red Bull. In the latter stages a McLaren miraculously came out of the pits and split Ricciardo and Vettel. McLaren have a Renault engine, just like the Red Bull. Dooh.

Personally I have always opposed team orders, and I hope others understand the cancer this is to the sport.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 9:24 pm 
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Verstappen apparently had an easy pass on Hartley but so long as nothing is admitted then that's ok?

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 9:36 pm 
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This surely shouldn't surprise anyone.

Welcome to the two tiered, master & servant world of F1 in the new millennium but hey, as long as the servants are competitive with each other and don't get in way of the masters then all is good.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 9:38 pm 
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There is already one bad thing before this blatant manipulation of results came to pass in Monaco with Ocon and Hamilton. That is - offering competitors engine that is weaker than the one the "main" team uses. Mercedes never gives their own engine, it says to others, "we wil make sure that you never be able to be better than us. Accept that by taking our engine you are a second class team". That's horrible to start with, as much as the Ocon situation was some days ago.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 10:05 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
There is already one bad thing before this blatant manipulation of results came to pass in Monaco with Ocon and Hamilton. That is - offering competitors engine that is weaker than the one the "main" team uses. Mercedes never gives their own engine, it says to others, "we wil make sure that you never be able to be better than us. Accept that by taking our engine you are a second class team". That's horrible to start with, as much as the Ocon situation was some days ago.

Yeah it's like we've never seen a junior driver wave a senior team driver past before?

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 10:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Verstappen apparently had an easy pass on Hartley but so long as nothing is admitted then that's ok?

I got the feeling that as long as the beneficiary isnt Ferrari or Vettel, thats ok.

You know (especially at Monaco), this intra-team help for Mercedes drivers had the potential of becoming as helpful as the VSC was for Vettel in Australia.
And in the name of "fair racing" I was expecting you to be as vocal in this instance as you were for the VSC in Australia, instead of trying to diffuse it (or justifying it with what Red Bull did too)... bias permitted.

I dread to think what would have been made in this forum had the beneficiary been Ferrari and Maurizio Arrivabene admitting it.


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 10:33 pm 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Verstappen apparently had an easy pass on Hartley but so long as nothing is admitted then that's ok?

I got the feeling that as long as the beneficiary isnt Ferrari or Vettel, thats ok.

You know (especially at Monaco), this intra-team help for Mercedes drivers had the potential of becoming as helpful as the VSC was for Vettel in Australia.
And in the name of "fair racing" I was expecting you to be as vocal in this instance as you were for the VSC in Australia, instead of trying to diffuse it (or justifying it with what Red Bull did too)... bias permitted.

I dread to think what would have been made in this forum had the beneficiary been Ferrari and Maurizio Arrivabene admitting it.

Ocon was a pit stop behind so it was not exactly a pass for position, why was it perfectly alright for the STR drivers to jump out of the way for Vettel in the title deciding race in 2012 which were actually passes for position, also do you not forget the lambasting that Vergne got from Marko in 2010 for not getting out of Webber's way quick enough in the title deciding race that year?

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 11:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
There is already one bad thing before this blatant manipulation of results came to pass in Monaco with Ocon and Hamilton. That is - offering competitors engine that is weaker than the one the "main" team uses. Mercedes never gives their own engine, it says to others, "we wil make sure that you never be able to be better than us. Accept that by taking our engine you are a second class team". That's horrible to start with, as much as the Ocon situation was some days ago.

Yeah it's like we've never seen a junior driver wave a senior team driver past before?

Good for you that you like it.

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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 11:19 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
There is already one bad thing before this blatant manipulation of results came to pass in Monaco with Ocon and Hamilton. That is - offering competitors engine that is weaker than the one the "main" team uses. Mercedes never gives their own engine, it says to others, "we wil make sure that you never be able to be better than us. Accept that by taking our engine you are a second class team". That's horrible to start with, as much as the Ocon situation was some days ago.

Yeah it's like we've never seen a junior driver wave a senior team driver past before?

Good for you that you like it.

I think you have to be a bit naieve about what happens on the track also Ocon was a pit stop behind so he was never finishing in front of Hamilton, now if it had been an actual pass for position that would be different again but I guess nobody noticed the easy pass Verstappen had on Hartley, are they not different teams?

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:07 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Verstappen apparently had an easy pass on Hartley but so long as nothing is admitted then that's ok?

I got the feeling that as long as the beneficiary isnt Ferrari or Vettel, thats ok.

You know (especially at Monaco), this intra-team help for Mercedes drivers had the potential of becoming as helpful as the VSC was for Vettel in Australia.
And in the name of "fair racing" I was expecting you to be as vocal in this instance as you were for the VSC in Australia, instead of trying to diffuse it (or justifying it with what Red Bull did too)... bias permitted.

I dread to think what would have been made in this forum had the beneficiary been Ferrari and Maurizio Arrivabene admitting it.

Ocon was a pit stop behind so it was not exactly a pass for position, why was it perfectly alright for the STR drivers to jump out of the way for Vettel in the title deciding race in 2012 which were actually passes for position, also do you not forget the lambasting that Vergne got from Marko in 2010 for not getting out of Webber's way quick enough in the title deciding race that year?

I`m not really passing any personal judgements whether intra-team help is right or wrong (IMO, its natural, its logical and impossible to police it). I just felt that for someone so vocal about fair racing, you are being distinctively very defensive/protective towards Mercedes in this case.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:31 am 
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Inter-team collusion was banned after Jerez 1997, and I wasn't aware of the rule being taken off the books. Although if this is punished it just stops the parties involved admitting anything.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:34 am 
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The McLaren Williams thing was a little different to this, Williams agreed to give up the win if they were guaranteed the position, it was borderline race fixing, and there is plenty of room to debate which side its on.

At the point Hamilton was behind Ocon he was on a different strategy as Ocon was yet to pit, it was more similar to lapping a backmarker. While Ocon was not an actual backmarker and could have certainly held Hamilton up more than he did, and would have given a non Merc a harder time, ultimately even if it had been a Ferrari or Red Bull behind him then he would have defended much less hard than he could have - as he was eventually going to have to pit and would have ended up behind them. Arguably you go slower when keeping another driver behind you, so it does make sense to let a faster driver by who you are not going to finish ahead of, as you will lose ground to the people you are actually racing.

Obviously, though, he did make life a lot easier for Hamilton than he would have for Vettel or Ricciardo, but I suspect that he would have not have block any overtake attempts from them either.

Now, if Force India actually gave up a position to Mercedes that they were fighting over - that would be a huge issue - but I don't think it will happen.

(Please note, if anyone replies saying something along the lines of "Ocon wasn't a back-marker, he was ahead of him" - then a) I know this, b) I won't reply to you, c) I know that as he wasn't a back-marker he was entitled to hold Hamilton up as much as he wants d) so that's not the point I'm making e) I'm referring to the fact that Ocon was going to end up behind Hamilton once he pitted, so he wasn't racing Hamilton for the final position)


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:40 am 
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It's a vastly different situation for sure, but the rule was a fairly sweeping one, no long list of exceptions or anything. Ocon isn't a Mercedes driver so that order shouldn't have gone out. Same as STR shouldn't move aside for RB, Sauber/Haas for Ferrari etc.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:24 am 
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Not only that even RBR on TR. K Mag does it for Ferrari as wellif you notice it otherwise he does not like getting out of the way lol. Here it was obvious because it is Monaco.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:29 am 
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Part of what people have to realize is that Ocon wasn't really racing either of them. He had nothing to gain by holding them up. I'm not thrilled about the pre-race conversations between teams either but Ocon didn't make a sacrifice there at all. Gasly also made it very easy for Hamilton in Bahrain but it was simply due to the fact that it was pointless to fight him and compromise his own tires and race when Hamilton was always going to end up ahead.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 2:21 am 
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Ocon gave space to Hamilton mainly because his race was with Gasly. Hamilton was on fresher tyres & even if Ocon kept defending against Hamilton, his tyres would wear faster & he would've been prone to Gasly's aattack. So many times we've seen midfield cars letting top tier drivers go through as fighting with them would mean more damage to the tyres.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:20 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
In the latter stages a McLaren miraculously came out of the pits and split Ricciardo and Vettel. McLaren have a Renault engine, just like the Red Bull. Dooh.

I think a reasonable person might perceive there to be more than a morsel of innuendo in that observation. Are you meaning to imply that it was indeed a miracle? Or are you suggesting that the Red Bull and McLaren teams collaborated in the timing of Vandoorne's release?


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:03 am 
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Huw wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
In the latter stages a McLaren miraculously came out of the pits and split Ricciardo and Vettel. McLaren have a Renault engine, just like the Red Bull. Dooh.

I think a reasonable person might perceive there to be more than a morsel of innuendo in that observation. Are you meaning to imply that it was indeed a miracle? Or are you suggesting that the Red Bull and McLaren teams collaborated in the timing of Vandoorne's release?

Vettel was always about 1 to 1.5 secs behind Ricciardo, so to pit someone, do a perfect pit stop and release them just in time to split these two up would always be very difficult, a near impossible task.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:31 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Huw wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
In the latter stages a McLaren miraculously came out of the pits and split Ricciardo and Vettel. McLaren have a Renault engine, just like the Red Bull. Dooh.

I think a reasonable person might perceive there to be more than a morsel of innuendo in that observation. Are you meaning to imply that it was indeed a miracle? Or are you suggesting that the Red Bull and McLaren teams collaborated in the timing of Vandoorne's release?

Vettel was always about 1 to 1.5 secs behind Ricciardo, so to pit someone, do a perfect pit stop and release them just in time to split these two up would always be very difficult, a near impossible task.

But since Vandoorne needed to pit, it was worth trying.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:08 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Huw wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
In the latter stages a McLaren miraculously came out of the pits and split Ricciardo and Vettel. McLaren have a Renault engine, just like the Red Bull. Dooh.

I think a reasonable person might perceive there to be more than a morsel of innuendo in that observation. Are you meaning to imply that it was indeed a miracle? Or are you suggesting that the Red Bull and McLaren teams collaborated in the timing of Vandoorne's release?

Vettel was always about 1 to 1.5 secs behind Ricciardo, so to pit someone, do a perfect pit stop and release them just in time to split these two up would always be very difficult, a near impossible task.

But since Vandoorne needed to pit, it was worth trying.

Agreed, it is just too many things coming together to say that it was done on purpose. They needed a driver that had to pit to come on the exact moment, do a perfect pit stop and release him between two cars separated by merely a second... I just don't find it an easy thing to do, even if they had the idea to do this there are too many things left to chance.

I guess they could still have a go at it, but it sounds more of an opportunistic rather than calculated move to do something like this


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:08 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Verstappen apparently had an easy pass on Hartley but so long as nothing is admitted then that's ok?

Hartley made a simple mistake .... this time it was when LecLerc was behind him that he should have panicked. Who would have known!


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:59 am 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Verstappen apparently had an easy pass on Hartley but so long as nothing is admitted then that's ok?

I got the feeling that as long as the beneficiary isnt Ferrari or Vettel, thats ok.

You know (especially at Monaco), this intra-team help for Mercedes drivers had the potential of becoming as helpful as the VSC was for Vettel in Australia.
And in the name of "fair racing" I was expecting you to be as vocal in this instance as you were for the VSC in Australia, instead of trying to diffuse it (or justifying it with what Red Bull did too)... bias permitted.

I dread to think what would have been made in this forum had the beneficiary been Ferrari and Maurizio Arrivabene admitting it.

Ocon was a pit stop behind so it was not exactly a pass for position, why was it perfectly alright for the STR drivers to jump out of the way for Vettel in the title deciding race in 2012 which were actually passes for position, also do you not forget the lambasting that Vergne got from Marko in 2010 for not getting out of Webber's way quick enough in the title deciding race that year?

I`m not really passing any personal judgements whether intra-team help is right or wrong (IMO, its natural, its logical and impossible to police it). I just felt that for someone so vocal about fair racing, you are being distinctively very defensive/protective towards Mercedes in this case.

Fair racing as in not dirty driving, I saw Vettel breeze past 2 Haas cars in Mexico last year but that wouldn't be as important because they were running out of the points, it didn't affect Ocon's race he was always finishing 6th, now if it had actually been a pass for position fair enough.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:03 pm 
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Tufty wrote:
Inter-team collusion was banned after Jerez 1997, and I wasn't aware of the rule being taken off the books. Although if this is punished it just stops the parties involved admitting anything.

I guess in the meantime they failed to notice all the free passes the Red Bull cars have had from the STR cars over the years, admittedly it's more so at the nitty gritty end of the season, but even so I can't see that this has ever been policed, did they not hear off Marko lambasting Alguersuari for not letting Webber pass him quick enough in the 2010 showdown race?

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:56 pm 
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I think regardless of who Ocon was actually racing, he wouldn't have even needed to use defensive driving to keep Hamilton behind him and lost no race time himself. In my opinion, in this situation, it really shouldn't matter if he on a different strategy or not - he was currently ahead of Hamilton in the race and should not have given way for him. If Hamilton lost out because of being stuck behind traffic, then it was Mercedes Stewart at fault and they should've had to live with it.

From what I know of the rules, the only time a driver should be let through is if it is a lapped car or their own team mate. Of course, if Ocon's tyres were really shot and he had to lift and brake early, then that would be acceptable, however, as he and Totto admitted he was instructed to let Hamilton by, I would deem it as race fixing and the teams should be punished accordingly.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:14 pm 
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minchy wrote:
I think regardless of who Ocon was actually racing, he wouldn't have even needed to use defensive driving to keep Hamilton behind him and lost no race time himself. In my opinion, in this situation, it really shouldn't matter if he on a different strategy or not - he was currently ahead of Hamilton in the race and should not have given way for him. If Hamilton lost out because of being stuck behind traffic, then it was Mercedes Stewart at fault and they should've had to live with it.

From what I know of the rules, the only time a driver should be let through is if it is a lapped car or their own team mate. Of course, if Ocon's tyres were really shot and he had to lift and brake early, then that would be acceptable, however, as he and Totto admitted he was instructed to let Hamilton by, I would deem it as race fixing and the teams should be punished accordingly.

I think you are on dodgy ground with that when somebody is allowed to own 2 teams.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I guess in the meantime they failed to notice all the free passes the Red Bull cars have had from the STR cars over the years....


Exactly, I'm more than a little surprised at this fuss about this now. I suppose it's the teams (or driver) involved that is the main problem.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:28 pm 
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I note the outrage at Ocon (with a team dependent on Mercedes power) saying 'After you' to a factory Mercedes and believe me, I don't condemn or deprecate it. But pardon me for this observation, ain't things changed over the years!!

Here's a snippet from Motor Sport's report on the 1956 Italian Grand Prix. The players are Stirling Moss (Maserati 250F entered by Officine Alfieri Maserati) and Luigi Piotti (Maserati 250F entered by ..... Luigi Piotti.)

"Moss started lap 45 with his normal lead, but rounding the Lesmo turns his engine, cut as he ran out of fuel. He coasted on and by sheer good fortune Piotti was the next along, and being surprisingly quick to sum up the situation, he nosed his car up behind the coasting Maserati and pushed it all the was back to the pits, Moss freewheeling into his pit, with the tank filler held open, ready for a quick 25 litres to be thrown in."

Here's a picture of this wicked crime! Be enough to send Race Control and most forums into meltdown these days. 8O

Image


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:20 pm 
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Huw wrote:
I note the outrage at Ocon (with a team dependent on Mercedes power) saying 'After you' to a factory Mercedes and believe me, I don't condemn or deprecate it. But pardon me for this observation, ain't things changed over the years!!

Here's a snippet from Motor Sport's report on the 1956 Italian Grand Prix. The players are Stirling Moss (Maserati 250F entered by Officine Alfieri Maserati) and Luigi Piotti (Maserati 250F entered by ..... Luigi Piotti.)

"Moss started lap 45 with his normal lead, but rounding the Lesmo turns his engine, cut as he ran out of fuel. He coasted on and by sheer good fortune Piotti was the next along, and being surprisingly quick to sum up the situation, he nosed his car up behind the coasting Maserati and pushed it all the was back to the pits, Moss freewheeling into his pit, with the tank filler held open, ready for a quick 25 litres to be thrown in."

Here's a picture of this wicked crime! Be enough to send Race Control and most forums into meltdown these days. 8O


Thank you, I didn't know about this. And technically he didn't let him past!!!!


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 4:32 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I guess in the meantime they failed to notice all the free passes the Red Bull cars have had from the STR cars over the years....


Exactly, I'm more than a little surprised at this fuss about this now. I suppose it's the teams (or driver) involved that is the main problem.

I think it's because the nature of the circuit made it so obvious and the fact that it was later admitted. In other situations (let's say in a hypothetical example if Ocon simply didnt put up a fight when Bottas tries to overtake in Canada) it's very hard to prove what has actually happened as it could be argued he just didn't want to waste time fighting a faster car. This wasn't that as proven by the admission if not the footage itself. This is the most clear cut case of it we are ever going to get.

I find it more interesting (but not in any way surprising) that certain fans are defending it in this case but have a ready list of drivers committing similar offences over the years which are much harder to prove than this. The same fans that would be none too pleased if this were Ferrari/Sauber.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 4:57 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
minchy wrote:
I think regardless of who Ocon was actually racing, he wouldn't have even needed to use defensive driving to keep Hamilton behind him and lost no race time himself. In my opinion, in this situation, it really shouldn't matter if he on a different strategy or not - he was currently ahead of Hamilton in the race and should not have given way for him. If Hamilton lost out because of being stuck behind traffic, then it was Mercedes Stewart at fault and they should've had to live with it.

From what I know of the rules, the only time a driver should be let through is if it is a lapped car or their own team mate. Of course, if Ocon's tyres were really shot and he had to lift and brake early, then that would be acceptable, however, as he and Totto admitted he was instructed to let Hamilton by, I would deem it as race fixing and the teams should be punished accordingly.

I think you are on dodgy ground with that when somebody is allowed to own 2 teams.


No, poker... the dodgy ground is Mercdes telling them to have Ocon let Lewis through... admitted by Ocon himself. Has it happened before with other teams? Possibly, but we don't have proof now we do! There is no dismissing it or making excuses as at the time it was for position... pit strategy or not.

Your hypocrisy on this is amazing as in another thread you have ranted for pages about Ferrari cheating when there is no proof and Charlie has even said they have no evidence of cheating... yet here with an admitted example of inter-team collusion you fervently are pushing it aside. The primary difference being the parties involved... ie defend anything that benefits Lewis, go ape-crazy over even an unsubstantiated rumour of wrong doing involving Ferrari and/or Vettel.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 5:31 pm 
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I am a huge LH fan, but that was bad to watch. I was outraged, left a bad taste in the mouth.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 6:02 pm 
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That's what you get when drivers have to obey team orders though. What was the difference between Vettel getting Kvatt dropped for Verstappen that is one big Red Bull team all paid from the same pocket.

Where and more importantly how do you draw the line?

I don't think anyone should move over be it the same team or same owner. You cant have it both ways.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Huw wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
In the latter stages a McLaren miraculously came out of the pits and split Ricciardo and Vettel. McLaren have a Renault engine, just like the Red Bull. Dooh.

I think a reasonable person might perceive there to be more than a morsel of innuendo in that observation. Are you meaning to imply that it was indeed a miracle? Or are you suggesting that the Red Bull and McLaren teams collaborated in the timing of Vandoorne's release?


Yes, but it was not McLaren/Red Bull but McLaren/Renault. McLaren lend a hand in a Renault powered car win Monaco, it has to get them in favor with Renault.

Just look at how it all played out. Vandoorne had absolutely nothing to gain (in position) by placing his car between the Red Bull and Ferrari. If he had just blipped the throttle a bit, he would have come out behind Vettel, and not lost position or been challenged for position. Additionally, by making himself the meat in the Red Bull/Ferrari sandwich, he had to maintain the pace, increasing his risk of something going wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 6:18 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
minchy wrote:
I think regardless of who Ocon was actually racing, he wouldn't have even needed to use defensive driving to keep Hamilton behind him and lost no race time himself. In my opinion, in this situation, it really shouldn't matter if he on a different strategy or not - he was currently ahead of Hamilton in the race and should not have given way for him. If Hamilton lost out because of being stuck behind traffic, then it was Mercedes Stewart at fault and they should've had to live with it.

From what I know of the rules, the only time a driver should be let through is if it is a lapped car or their own team mate. Of course, if Ocon's tyres were really shot and he had to lift and brake early, then that would be acceptable, however, as he and Totto admitted he was instructed to let Hamilton by, I would deem it as race fixing and the teams should be punished accordingly.

I think you are on dodgy ground with that when somebody is allowed to own 2 teams.


No, poker... the dodgy ground is Mercdes telling them to have Ocon let Lewis through... admitted by Ocon himself. Has it happened before with other teams? Possibly, but we don't have proof now we do! There is no dismissing it or making excuses as at the time it was for position... pit strategy or not.

Your hypocrisy on this is amazing as in another thread you have ranted for pages about Ferrari cheating when there is no proof and Charlie has even said they have no evidence of cheating... yet here with an admitted example of inter-team collusion you fervently are pushing it aside. The primary difference being the parties involved... ie defend anything that benefits Lewis, go ape-crazy over even an unsubstantiated rumour of wrong doing involving Ferrari and/or Vettel.
you new here? When Mercedes benefit, it's not a problem but a good thing. When anybody else does it, it's a disgrace


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 6:22 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
I am a huge LH fan, but that was bad to watch. I was outraged, left a bad taste in the mouth.


I am not even a Hamilton fan, and it was disgusting.

I watch racing only to see brave young men battle close and hard. I want to see the best man win. Not with an asterisk beside the race result, with the following notation "he could not have done it on his own".

You can not use the words "merit" and "Formula One" in the same sentence, it is an oxymoron.

This kind of crap is what is disengaging me more and more from Formula One. There are many other race series I now follow closer because I am losing interest in that political battleground of egos and horse hockey pucks.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:50 pm 
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It wasn't even mentioned when it happened with Haas and Ferrari in just the last race.

Mercedes were waiting for the pit stop window to open ahead of the Haas. It would open on lap 19/20 for Bottas and lap 18/19 for Vettel. Ferrari pitted Vettel on lap 17 when if they had waited 1 lap longer Vettel would have been able to pit and be ahead of the Haas. Ferrari did this because they knew the Haas wasn't going to put up a strong fight and it didn't defend the overtake when it came.

Bottas did not pit until he had a pit window to the Haas, which ironically failed because he had a slow stop.

The very same thing happened in Monaco, Mercedes were able to pit there car behind the sister team and they wouldn't be held up. In Monaco though its a lot more obvious when you don't put up a fight because you have to literally pull over to let someone through. Vettel was unable to pit until the FI was outside of his window too just like Bottas in Spain.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:54 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
minchy wrote:
I think regardless of who Ocon was actually racing, he wouldn't have even needed to use defensive driving to keep Hamilton behind him and lost no race time himself. In my opinion, in this situation, it really shouldn't matter if he on a different strategy or not - he was currently ahead of Hamilton in the race and should not have given way for him. If Hamilton lost out because of being stuck behind traffic, then it was Mercedes Stewart at fault and they should've had to live with it.

From what I know of the rules, the only time a driver should be let through is if it is a lapped car or their own team mate. Of course, if Ocon's tyres were really shot and he had to lift and brake early, then that would be acceptable, however, as he and Totto admitted he was instructed to let Hamilton by, I would deem it as race fixing and the teams should be punished accordingly.

I think you are on dodgy ground with that when somebody is allowed to own 2 teams.


No, poker... the dodgy ground is Mercdes telling them to have Ocon let Lewis through... admitted by Ocon himself. Has it happened before with other teams? Possibly, but we don't have proof now we do! There is no dismissing it or making excuses as at the time it was for position... pit strategy or not.

Your hypocrisy on this is amazing as in another thread you have ranted for pages about Ferrari cheating when there is no proof and Charlie has even said they have no evidence of cheating... yet here with an admitted example of inter-team collusion you fervently are pushing it aside. The primary difference being the parties involved... ie defend anything that benefits Lewis, go ape-crazy over even an unsubstantiated rumour of wrong doing involving Ferrari and/or Vettel.


It has been admitted quite a few times. To name a few, Schumacher letting Vettel by in Brazil in 2012 and Heikki letting Kimi by in a race in 2007 (can't remember which). We have also had the opposite happen with Damon Hill holding Schumacher up in the Japanese GP in 1997 (losing him about 3-4 seconds) only to immediately jump out the way when Frentzen came to lap him a few corners later. It wiped out all of Schumachers lead.

Japan 1998, drivers were actually warned not to interfere with the title contenders. So many cars got out of Schumachers way in that race (and openly said it afterwards) that he was up to something like P6 from P22 by about lap 8.


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