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Jake Dennis 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Nirei Fukuzumi 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Sean Galael 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Antonio Giovinazzi 12%  12%  [ 3 ]
Brendon Hartley 46%  46%  [ 12 ]
Danill Kvyat 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Reports that Toro Rosso approached McLaren to sign Lando Norris until the end of the season to replace Hartley. Seems like Hartley will be gone once they find someone to replace him.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mclaren-t ... or-norris/


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:26 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Reports that Toro Rosso approached McLaren to sign Lando Norris until the end of the season to replace Hartley. Seems like Hartley will be gone once they find someone to replace him.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mclaren-t ... or-norris/

I knew they were interested in him but I thought that was for next season.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:12 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Reports that Toro Rosso approached McLaren to sign Lando Norris until the end of the season to replace Hartley. Seems like Hartley will be gone once they find someone to replace him.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mclaren-t ... or-norris/

I knew they were interested in him but I thought that was for next season.


Marco's loosing his touch. Guess his age is catching up.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:49 am 
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JN23 wrote:
Reports that Toro Rosso approached McLaren to sign Lando Norris until the end of the season to replace Hartley. Seems like Hartley will be gone once they find someone to replace him.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mclaren-t ... or-norris/

It seems McLaren rejected the approach, in part because Red Bull apparently insisted on a clause giving them first option on Norris for next season. If this is true, it suggests to me that McLaren aren't entirely confident of an unchanged lineup in 2019...


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:10 am 
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Zoue wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Reports that Toro Rosso approached McLaren to sign Lando Norris until the end of the season to replace Hartley. Seems like Hartley will be gone once they find someone to replace him.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mclaren-t ... or-norris/

It seems McLaren rejected the approach, in part because Red Bull apparently insisted on a clause giving them first option on Norris for next season. If this is true, it suggests to me that McLaren aren't entirely confident of an unchanged lineup in 2019...

Or that clause would effectively lose Norris to Red Bull long term (unless they decide to chew him up and spit him out) and give them no option on their investment even for 2020/2021?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Yeah Sainz won't return to STR.
I think Hartley will be there for the rest of the season, and none of the names above seem very likely. He might even be there next year, because honestly at the moment I think the feeder series look pretty bleak outside of those that are already signed up.

F2:
- Russell, Aitken, Norris and De Vries are in driver development programmes already, I give good odds to Russell and Norris to make it into F1, Aitken a bit less, De Vries not likely at all. Nobody for STR here I think.
- Albon could be an outsider, but... not convinced
- Markelov: no. He's a fifth-year driver, doing well through experience in the series instead of outright talent

GP3: I don't see anyone currently driving in GP3 to become an F1 driver

F3 Euro: maybe Enaam Ahmed or Sacha Fenestraz? But way too soon.

These are the three most prominent European feeder series at the moment and if you'd guess about three or max 4 of these seem good enough to ever make it to F1, that's not a lot.

So Hartley has that going for him for maybe next year as well.

Albon is a former Red Bull driver and he's looking as quick as anyone in F2, he also ran Leclerc close to the GP3 title when they were teammates.


Which is why I see an outsider in him. Not convinced though because he needed a lot of time in FR2.0, he didn't have a fantastic year in F3 in 2016, nor in F2 last year, and overall has failed to win any title yet.

He got injured last year, he damaged his shoulder when he fell off his mountain bike, he did start the season reasonably well though.

Regarding Red Bull junior records you need to check out Sainz's record.


Sainz won a few series, one very high-profile one.

Look, where exactly are you going with this? I'm not convinced yet by Albon, you might be, that's OK.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:11 pm 
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typaH4okc wrote:
pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Reports that Toro Rosso approached McLaren to sign Lando Norris until the end of the season to replace Hartley. Seems like Hartley will be gone once they find someone to replace him.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mclaren-t ... or-norris/

I knew they were interested in him but I thought that was for next season.


Marco's loosing his touch. Guess his age is catching up.


He's had a pretty good record of catching the talent and bringing them to STR/RBR. It's normal there will be some periods of drought :)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:23 pm 
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mds wrote:
typaH4okc wrote:
pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Reports that Toro Rosso approached McLaren to sign Lando Norris until the end of the season to replace Hartley. Seems like Hartley will be gone once they find someone to replace him.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mclaren-t ... or-norris/

I knew they were interested in him but I thought that was for next season.


Marco's loosing his touch. Guess his age is catching up.


He's had a pretty good record of catching the talent and bringing them to STR/RBR. It's normal there will be some periods of drought :)



He has to give him his due, but when you look at the huge number of drivers they hook up it is not surprising.
They (used to) sign anyone unclaimed that looked any good and drop a few each year/series.
If they have the spare cash, it should be a non stop conveyor.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:06 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Reports that Toro Rosso approached McLaren to sign Lando Norris until the end of the season to replace Hartley. Seems like Hartley will be gone once they find someone to replace him.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mclaren-t ... or-norris/

It seems McLaren rejected the approach, in part because Red Bull apparently insisted on a clause giving them first option on Norris for next season. If this is true, it suggests to me that McLaren aren't entirely confident of an unchanged lineup in 2019...

Well rumours are that Alonso will not be around.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:33 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Yeah Sainz won't return to STR.
I think Hartley will be there for the rest of the season, and none of the names above seem very likely. He might even be there next year, because honestly at the moment I think the feeder series look pretty bleak outside of those that are already signed up.

F2:
- Russell, Aitken, Norris and De Vries are in driver development programmes already, I give good odds to Russell and Norris to make it into F1, Aitken a bit less, De Vries not likely at all. Nobody for STR here I think.
- Albon could be an outsider, but... not convinced
- Markelov: no. He's a fifth-year driver, doing well through experience in the series instead of outright talent

GP3: I don't see anyone currently driving in GP3 to become an F1 driver

F3 Euro: maybe Enaam Ahmed or Sacha Fenestraz? But way too soon.

These are the three most prominent European feeder series at the moment and if you'd guess about three or max 4 of these seem good enough to ever make it to F1, that's not a lot.

So Hartley has that going for him for maybe next year as well.

Albon is a former Red Bull driver and he's looking as quick as anyone in F2, he also ran Leclerc close to the GP3 title when they were teammates.


Which is why I see an outsider in him. Not convinced though because he needed a lot of time in FR2.0, he didn't have a fantastic year in F3 in 2016, nor in F2 last year, and overall has failed to win any title yet.

He got injured last year, he damaged his shoulder when he fell off his mountain bike, he did start the season reasonably well though.

Regarding Red Bull junior records you need to check out Sainz's record.


Sainz won a few series, one very high-profile one.

Look, where exactly are you going with this? I'm not convinced yet by Albon, you might be, that's OK.

He won a few, he competed in 7 series and won 1, the final one that got him into F1, Albon finished 2nd in GP3 as a rookie and he's currently 3rd in F2 despite some bad luck with 3 pole positions in 4 qualifying sessions, more than the likes of Norris who has one and Russell who has none, speed wise he has been on the same level as these two highly rated drivers, one of which Norris is wanted by 2 F1 teams.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:22 am 
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pokerman wrote:
He won a few, he competed in 7 series and won 1, the final one that got him into F1


He won 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Form ... ropean_Cup
And if you prove yourself at top level, then that's OK to get into F1. And if you do well in F1 and other teams are willing to sign you and so you earn that place, then I don't know what's the argument here.

Quote:
Albon finished 2nd in GP3 as a rookie


Yes and he finished 10th in F2 as a rookie.

Again, where are you going with this? Is my opinion to "not be convinced yet" by Albon so offensive to you that you are desperate to make it a point of contention?
I fully hope he succeeds but I'm not convinced yet. That's my opinion.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:30 am 
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moby wrote:
mds wrote:
typaH4okc wrote:
pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Reports that Toro Rosso approached McLaren to sign Lando Norris until the end of the season to replace Hartley. Seems like Hartley will be gone once they find someone to replace him.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mclaren-t ... or-norris/

I knew they were interested in him but I thought that was for next season.


Marco's loosing his touch. Guess his age is catching up.


He's had a pretty good record of catching the talent and bringing them to STR/RBR. It's normal there will be some periods of drought :)



He has to give him his due, but when you look at the huge number of drivers they hook up it is not surprising.
They (used to) sign anyone unclaimed that looked any good and drop a few each year/series.
If they have the spare cash, it should be a non stop conveyor.


Isn't that a great way to go about it though? Those who look good are signed, can focus on nothing but their performance on track, and if they do well they have a clear path to F1. You'd sometimes see very good young drivers having to go to lesser teams or quit racing altogether because of financing issues - this system makes sure that doesn't happen. And of course the fact so many drivers have been willing to sign shows that they see the merits in the system as well.

About that first sentence - I'm not sure. They've really had a lot of drivers that went on to become very accomplished drivers (or are in the process of becoming so) in other racing series.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:01 pm 
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mds wrote:
moby wrote:
mds wrote:
typaH4okc wrote:
pokerman wrote:

I knew they were interested in him but I thought that was for next season.


Marco's loosing his touch. Guess his age is catching up.


He's had a pretty good record of catching the talent and bringing them to STR/RBR. It's normal there will be some periods of drought :)



He has to give him his due, but when you look at the huge number of drivers they hook up it is not surprising.
They (used to) sign anyone unclaimed that looked any good and drop a few each year/series.
If they have the spare cash, it should be a non stop conveyor.


Isn't that a great way to go about it though? Those who look good are signed, can focus on nothing but their performance on track, and if they do well they have a clear path to F1. You'd sometimes see very good young drivers having to go to lesser teams or quit racing altogether because of financing issues - this system makes sure that doesn't happen. And of course the fact so many drivers have been willing to sign shows that they see the merits in the system as well.

About that first sentence - I'm not sure. They've really had a lot of drivers that went on to become very accomplished drivers (or are in the process of becoming so) in other racing series.[/quote]

If you have enough funding, yes its a wonderful way to do it. Sign them all and you will not miss many.

For the drivers maybe not so good. Say they get signed at 12 years old because they look very good.
Funded through series until 17, then 'released' by Red Bull.

That driver then has no funding structure in place ans no 'ties' to other teams and sponsors. They then have to scratch against their ex mates and those who were not taken up by the program. There is also (probably) a stigma to both the driver and potential employers of 'he was released, not good enough'

Cant fault Red Bull for doing it, its why they are there, but there are at least 4 reasonably good drivers on the scrap heap from F1 because they got to the top and were dropped off. How many through the other series I have no idea, but suspect it is considerable.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:57 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He won a few, he competed in 7 series and won 1, the final one that got him into F1


He won 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Form ... ropean_Cup
And if you prove yourself at top level, then that's OK to get into F1. And if you do well in F1 and other teams are willing to sign you and so you earn that place, then I don't know what's the argument here.

Quote:
Albon finished 2nd in GP3 as a rookie


Yes and he finished 10th in F2 as a rookie.

Again, where are you going with this? Is my opinion to "not be convinced yet" by Albon so offensive to you that you are desperate to make it a point of contention?
I fully hope he succeeds but I'm not convinced yet. That's my opinion.

Frijns was the champion in FRenault 2.0, Sainz was second, he won the lesser version were Frijns only did half the races, the only major title that Sainz won was in his final season before entering F1, Albon finished 2nd in GP3 as a rookie, then 10th in F2 were he was injured for quite a few races, this year he's had 3 poles out of 4 races against the likes of Norris and Russell, it beats me how you might think he's not good enough?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He won a few, he competed in 7 series and won 1, the final one that got him into F1


He won 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Form ... ropean_Cup
And if you prove yourself at top level, then that's OK to get into F1. And if you do well in F1 and other teams are willing to sign you and so you earn that place, then I don't know what's the argument here.

Quote:
Albon finished 2nd in GP3 as a rookie


Yes and he finished 10th in F2 as a rookie.

Again, where are you going with this? Is my opinion to "not be convinced yet" by Albon so offensive to you that you are desperate to make it a point of contention?
I fully hope he succeeds but I'm not convinced yet. That's my opinion.

Frijns was the champion in FRenault 2.0, Sainz was second, he won the lesser version were Frijns only did half the races, the only major title that Sainz won was in his final season before entering F1, Albon finished 2nd in GP3 as a rookie, then 10th in F2 were he was injured for quite a few races, this year he's had 3 poles out of 4 races against the likes of Norris and Russell, it beats me how you might think he's not good enough?


TBF Plenty of people said Sainz wouldn't be good enough either.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:01 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He won a few, he competed in 7 series and won 1, the final one that got him into F1


He won 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Form ... ropean_Cup
And if you prove yourself at top level, then that's OK to get into F1. And if you do well in F1 and other teams are willing to sign you and so you earn that place, then I don't know what's the argument here.

Quote:
Albon finished 2nd in GP3 as a rookie


Yes and he finished 10th in F2 as a rookie.

Again, where are you going with this? Is my opinion to "not be convinced yet" by Albon so offensive to you that you are desperate to make it a point of contention?
I fully hope he succeeds but I'm not convinced yet. That's my opinion.

Frijns was the champion in FRenault 2.0, Sainz was second, he won the lesser version were Frijns only did half the races, the only major title that Sainz won was in his final season before entering F1, Albon finished 2nd in GP3 as a rookie, then 10th in F2 were he was injured for quite a few races, this year he's had 3 poles out of 4 races against the likes of Norris and Russell, it beats me how you might think he's not good enough?


TBF Plenty of people said Sainz wouldn't be good enough either.

Indeed that is true based on the fact that it took Sainz that long to win anything, even Red Bull signed Verstappen before Sainz for STR, a driver that was not even their junior program.

I don't understand though why Albon is being written off, he ran Leclerc close in GP3 and then 2 years later in F2, 3 poles in 4 races against highly rated F3 Champion Norris who is going to walk into F1 next year, and also GP3 Champion and Mercedes junior driver Russell, would that not be a driver for Red Bull to consider for next year?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
[he won the lesser version


Don't care. You said he won one, he won two. Just stating facts here.

Quote:
then 10th in F2 were he was injured for quite a few races


Yeah it's not like he was on course for winning it either way. He scored his podiums after being injured.

Quote:
this year he's had 3 poles out of 4 races against the likes of Norris and Russell, it beats me how you might think he's not good enough?


I'm not saying I think he's not good enough, I'm saying I'm not convinced yet. A few poles in F2 don't immediately qualify one to be good enough for F1. We'l see by the end of the season what they all have achieved and go with that.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:56 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
[he won the lesser version


Don't care. You said he won one, he won two. Just stating facts here.

Quote:
then 10th in F2 were he was injured for quite a few races


Yeah it's not like he was on course for winning it either way. He scored his podiums after being injured.

Quote:
this year he's had 3 poles out of 4 races against the likes of Norris and Russell, it beats me how you might think he's not good enough?


I'm not saying I think he's not good enough, I'm saying I'm not convinced yet. A few poles in F2 don't immediately qualify one to be good enough for F1. We'l see by the end of the season what they all have achieved and go with that.

He won the lesser version, you don't have 2 FRenault 2.0 champions, Robins Frijns was the champion, the following year Jake Dennis won the lesser title whilst Vandoorne won the main title from Kvyat and Rowland. the following year Gasly won the main title from Rowland and Ocon, Dennis was 4th, the talent that is Matt Parry won the lesser title, you need to know your onions.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
He won the lesser version, you don't have 2 FRenault 2.0 champions


FR2.0 NEC is a championship and he won it.

Quote:
Robins Frijns was the champion, the following year Jake Dennis won the lesser title whilst Vandoorne won the main title from Kvyat and Rowland. the following year Gasly won the main title from Rowland and Ocon, Dennis was 4th, the talent that is Matt Parry won the lesser title, you need to know your onions.


Not sure where you think you're going with some namedropping. He won 2 championships. Fact.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:32 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
[he won the lesser version


Don't care. You said he won one, he won two. Just stating facts here.

Quote:
then 10th in F2 were he was injured for quite a few races


Yeah it's not like he was on course for winning it either way. He scored his podiums after being injured.

Quote:
this year he's had 3 poles out of 4 races against the likes of Norris and Russell, it beats me how you might think he's not good enough?


I'm not saying I think he's not good enough, I'm saying I'm not convinced yet. A few poles in F2 don't immediately qualify one to be good enough for F1. We'l see by the end of the season what they all have achieved and go with that.

He won the lesser version, you don't have 2 FRenault 2.0 champions, Robins Frijns was the champion, the following year Jake Dennis won the lesser title whilst Vandoorne won the main title from Kvyat and Rowland. the following year Gasly won the main title from Rowland and Ocon, Dennis was 4th, the talent that is Matt Parry won the lesser title, you need to know your onions.


This makes no sense at all. It's a bit like saying the F2 winner can't be called a champion.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:55 pm 
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It's not a major title like F4 isn't either, anything below the main FRenault 2.0 title is very minor, in this instance Sainz basically won a junior version of a major series, I highlighted other winners just to show the level of quality.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
It's not a major title like F4 isn't either, anything below the main FRenault 2.0 title is very minor, in this instance Sainz basically won a junior version of a major series, I highlighted other winners just to show the level of quality.


But he did win it. He won two championships.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
It's not a major title like F4 isn't either


The criterion was not "major title". I literally said "he won a few series, one very high-profile one", implying the other title wasn't "very high-profile". To which you responded he won one.

So no, he didn't, he won two series.

Quote:
in this instance Sainz basically won a junior version of a major series, I highlighted other winners just to show the level of quality.


That's stretching a bit. It overlapped with a few races of the major FR2.0 series, there were more rounds and more races per round (so more representative instead of less due to a higher sample size?), and Vandoorne and Kvyat drove full-time - the "level of quality" was pretty alright. Frijns only did 5 of the 8 rounds, but wasn't doing nearly as well as Sainz in those. And if you think any of those young guys are holding back when racing, you'd be wrong. So that title probably holds more value than you think it does.

Either way, he won two.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:02 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's not a major title like F4 isn't either, anything below the main FRenault 2.0 title is very minor, in this instance Sainz basically won a junior version of a major series, I highlighted other winners just to show the level of quality.


But he did win it. He won two championships.

He won a nothing title that some of the other top drivers don't compete in, he won nothing of significance until the FR3.5 title, yet this nothing title is seen as being more significant than finishing 2nd in GP3.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's not a major title like F4 isn't either, anything below the main FRenault 2.0 title is very minor, in this instance Sainz basically won a junior version of a major series, I highlighted other winners just to show the level of quality.


But he did win it. He won two championships.

He won a nothing title that some of the other top drivers don't compete in, he won nothing of significance until the FR3.5 title,


He won a title against the likes of Kvyat and Vandoorne, and outperformed Frijns for the time Frijns competed in it.
If that's a "nothing title", you are severely misguided.

edit: by the way, Sainz also came second that year in the "main" series. While losing out to Frijns, I'd dare to say that he beat better drivers in Kvyat and Vandoorne than Albon did in his rookie year in GP3.


Quote:
yet this nothing title is seen as being more significant than finishing 2nd in GP3.


Nobody said that. However, you actually got me thinking - see my comment above.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:43 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:48 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's not a major title like F4 isn't either, anything below the main FRenault 2.0 title is very minor, in this instance Sainz basically won a junior version of a major series, I highlighted other winners just to show the level of quality.


But he did win it. He won two championships.

He won a nothing title that some of the other top drivers don't compete in, he won nothing of significance until the FR3.5 title,


He won a title against the likes of Kvyat and Vandoorne, and outperformed Frijns for the time Frijns competed in it.
If that's a "nothing title", you are severely misguided.

edit: by the way, Sainz also came second that year in the "main" series. While losing out to Frijns, I'd dare to say that he beat better drivers in Kvyat and Vandoorne than Albon did in his rookie year in GP3.


Quote:
yet this nothing title is seen as being more significant than finishing 2nd in GP3.


Nobody said that. However, you actually got me thinking - see my comment above.

Sainz did well in his rookie year in FRenault 2.0 but he didn't win the title, but it was a strong year for him, however what followed was mediocre:-

British F3 - 6th
F3 Euroseries - 9th
European F3 - 5th
GP3 - 10th (his teammate Kvyat Champion)

Then he won the FR3.5 title.

Gasly finished 10th as a rookie in FRenault 2.0, Ocon 14th, Gasly also finished 8th in his GP2 rookie season however it's what they did later in their careers that's important.

It's only Albon's second season in F2, 3 poles from 4 races shows he's up there with the best juniors, I don't understand why he's seen as a right off?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:49 pm 
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Anyway back on topic, Hartley has actually looked faster than Gasly in the last two F1 weekends but he just can't catch a break.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:31 pm 
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I would let him stay.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
however it's what they did later in their careers that's important.


In that case, Sainz won a top-level series and Albon none at all.

Quote:
It's only Albon's second season in F2, 3 poles from 4 races shows he's up there with the best juniors, I don't understand why he's seen as a right off?


Not sure what a right off means (not a native English speaker) - but at this point his GP3 season looks more like an outlier. If he keeps up the performance level he has been showing this year in F2, then he could convince me, at this point he hasn't yet. He needs to keep this up.

More as a whole, the current F2 season strikes me as a season where, up until now, nobody is doing superbly, as in F1-worthy. Norris started off well but since then Russell, Albon, Aitken and Markelov have been in the spotlight a bit as well.
They can't all be F1-worthy, so at this point I'm thinking neither of them, including Albon, are ready for F1 and at this rate could all use another year in F2 (forget about Markelov though, he's been there too long) before making any serious F1 aspirations.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:25 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
however it's what they did later in their careers that's important.


In that case, Sainz won a top-level series and Albon none at all.

Quote:
It's only Albon's second season in F2, 3 poles from 4 races shows he's up there with the best juniors, I don't understand why he's seen as a right off?


Not sure what a right off means (not a native English speaker) - but at this point his GP3 season looks more like an outlier. If he keeps up the performance level he has been showing this year in F2, then he could convince me, at this point he hasn't yet. He needs to keep this up.

More as a whole, the current F2 season strikes me as a season where, up until now, nobody is doing superbly, as in F1-worthy. Norris started off well but since then Russell, Albon, Aitken and Markelov have been in the spotlight a bit as well.
They can't all be F1-worthy, so at this point I'm thinking neither of them, including Albon, are ready for F1 and at this rate could all use another year in F2 (forget about Markelov though, he's been there too long) before making any serious F1 aspirations.

Which is my point that what you do at the highest level is what counts.

A right off means you thinking he's never going to make it, as for the topsy turvy results that in part can be laid at the feet at the new unreliable engines and cheap clutch systems.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:50 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
however it's what they did later in their careers that's important.


In that case, Sainz won a top-level series and Albon none at all.

Quote:
It's only Albon's second season in F2, 3 poles from 4 races shows he's up there with the best juniors, I don't understand why he's seen as a right off?


Not sure what a right off means (not a native English speaker) - but at this point his GP3 season looks more like an outlier. If he keeps up the performance level he has been showing this year in F2, then he could convince me, at this point he hasn't yet. He needs to keep this up.

More as a whole, the current F2 season strikes me as a season where, up until now, nobody is doing superbly, as in F1-worthy. Norris started off well but since then Russell, Albon, Aitken and Markelov have been in the spotlight a bit as well.
They can't all be F1-worthy, so at this point I'm thinking neither of them, including Albon, are ready for F1 and at this rate could all use another year in F2 (forget about Markelov though, he's been there too long) before making any serious F1 aspirations.

Which is my point that what you do at the highest level is what counts.

A right off means you thinking he's never going to make it, as for the topsy turvy results that in part can be laid at the feet at the new unreliable engines and cheap clutch systems.


Mds hasn't said Albon is never going to make it. Just that his record thus far hasn't convinced him that he will.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:06 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
however it's what they did later in their careers that's important.


In that case, Sainz won a top-level series and Albon none at all.

Quote:
It's only Albon's second season in F2, 3 poles from 4 races shows he's up there with the best juniors, I don't understand why he's seen as a right off?


Not sure what a right off means (not a native English speaker) - but at this point his GP3 season looks more like an outlier. If he keeps up the performance level he has been showing this year in F2, then he could convince me, at this point he hasn't yet. He needs to keep this up.

More as a whole, the current F2 season strikes me as a season where, up until now, nobody is doing superbly, as in F1-worthy. Norris started off well but since then Russell, Albon, Aitken and Markelov have been in the spotlight a bit as well.
They can't all be F1-worthy, so at this point I'm thinking neither of them, including Albon, are ready for F1 and at this rate could all use another year in F2 (forget about Markelov though, he's been there too long) before making any serious F1 aspirations.

Which is my point that what you do at the highest level is what counts.

A right off means you thinking he's never going to make it, as for the topsy turvy results that in part can be laid at the feet at the new unreliable engines and cheap clutch systems.


Mds hasn't said Albon is never going to make it. Just that his record thus far hasn't convinced him that he will.

Based on what he has done in the past and ignoring what he is doing now, even calling 2nd in GP3 as an outlier, that's not an open mind as such.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
however it's what they did later in their careers that's important.


In that case, Sainz won a top-level series and Albon none at all.

Quote:
It's only Albon's second season in F2, 3 poles from 4 races shows he's up there with the best juniors, I don't understand why he's seen as a right off?


Not sure what a right off means (not a native English speaker) - but at this point his GP3 season looks more like an outlier. If he keeps up the performance level he has been showing this year in F2, then he could convince me, at this point he hasn't yet. He needs to keep this up.

More as a whole, the current F2 season strikes me as a season where, up until now, nobody is doing superbly, as in F1-worthy. Norris started off well but since then Russell, Albon, Aitken and Markelov have been in the spotlight a bit as well.
They can't all be F1-worthy, so at this point I'm thinking neither of them, including Albon, are ready for F1 and at this rate could all use another year in F2 (forget about Markelov though, he's been there too long) before making any serious F1 aspirations.

Which is my point that what you do at the highest level is what counts.

A right off means you thinking he's never going to make it, as for the topsy turvy results that in part can be laid at the feet at the new unreliable engines and cheap clutch systems.


Mds hasn't said Albon is never going to make it. Just that his record thus far hasn't convinced him that he will.

Based on what he has done in the past and ignoring what he is doing now, even calling 2nd in GP3 as an outlier, that's not an open mind as such.


Well, thus far it is a bit of an outlier. Considering the resume of some drivers we've seen struggle in F1 mds is hardly saying anything contentious. I don't really understand your argument? We should assume anyone with a 2nd in GP3 and able to string a few good races together in F2 is doubtlessly headed to the top?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:26 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mds hasn't said Albon is never going to make it. Just that his record thus far hasn't convinced him that he will.

Based on what he has done in the past and ignoring what he is doing now, even calling 2nd in GP3 as an outlier, that's not an open mind as such.


Well, thus far it is a bit of an outlier. Considering the resume of some drivers we've seen struggle in F1 mds is hardly saying anything contentious. I don't really understand your argument? We should assume anyone with a 2nd in GP3 and able to string a few good races together in F2 is doubtlessly headed to the top?

Certainly a driver that Red Bull might want to consider if they are looking to replace Hartley, we assume that the likes of Norris and Russell are going to continue to string a few good results together but not Albon?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mds hasn't said Albon is never going to make it. Just that his record thus far hasn't convinced him that he will.

Based on what he has done in the past and ignoring what he is doing now, even calling 2nd in GP3 as an outlier, that's not an open mind as such.


Well, thus far it is a bit of an outlier. Considering the resume of some drivers we've seen struggle in F1 mds is hardly saying anything contentious. I don't really understand your argument? We should assume anyone with a 2nd in GP3 and able to string a few good races together in F2 is doubtlessly headed to the top?

Certainly a driver that Red Bull might want to consider if they are looking to replace Hartley, we assume that the likes of Norris and Russell are going to continue to string a few good results together but not Albon?


Both Norris and Russell give us more reason to think that. They've got a bigger history of doing that in the past. There's no certainty in either of them being good enough either though. There never is. Which is why i'm utterly baffled by your argument here. Albon, certainly, has yet to prove himself a doubtless star of the future. That's not to say he can't be.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
A right off means you thinking he's never going to make it


I never said, nor implied, that.
Why must you insist in behaving this way in pretty much every discussion you ever enter?

Quote:
Based on what he has done in the past and ignoring what he is doing now, even calling 2nd in GP3 as an outlier, that's not an open mind as such.


I am NOT "ignoring what he is doing now". I'm taking his full body of work until now, and I am not yet convinced he is proper F1 material. But he might convince me, that depends on what he does for the rest of the year or maybe next year.

How is that not having an open mind?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:55 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mds hasn't said Albon is never going to make it. Just that his record thus far hasn't convinced him that he will.

Based on what he has done in the past and ignoring what he is doing now, even calling 2nd in GP3 as an outlier, that's not an open mind as such.


Well, thus far it is a bit of an outlier. Considering the resume of some drivers we've seen struggle in F1 mds is hardly saying anything contentious. I don't really understand your argument? We should assume anyone with a 2nd in GP3 and able to string a few good races together in F2 is doubtlessly headed to the top?

Certainly a driver that Red Bull might want to consider if they are looking to replace Hartley, we assume that the likes of Norris and Russell are going to continue to string a few good results together but not Albon?


Both Norris and Russell give us more reason to think that. They've got a bigger history of doing that in the past. There's no certainty in either of them being good enough either though. There never is. Which is why i'm utterly baffled by your argument here. Albon, certainly, has yet to prove himself a doubtless star of the future. That's not to say he can't be.

Well if he keeps up the same level of performance, the same level as Norris and Russell, then who would be better for Red Bull than Albon, I don't see anyone else?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:59 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
A right off means you thinking he's never going to make it


I never said, nor implied, that.
Why must you insist in behaving this way in pretty much every discussion you ever enter?

Quote:
Based on what he has done in the past and ignoring what he is doing now, even calling 2nd in GP3 as an outlier, that's not an open mind as such.


I am NOT "ignoring what he is doing now". I'm taking his full body of work until now, and I am not yet convinced he is proper F1 material. But he might convince me, that depends on what he does for the rest of the year or maybe next year.

How is that not having an open mind?

I must admit I do sometimes lose track of posts.

If Red Bull want to replace Hartley for next year, if Albon continues to drive at the same level as Norris and Russell, then who better than Albon to replace him, why the need for Albon to prove himself for yet another year?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:15 am 
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Just for clarification and pedantry: It’s “write off” which is cancellation of a bad debt or worthless asset. As in the bad debt is written off the books.

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