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STR Seat
Jake Dennis 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Nirei Fukuzumi 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Sean Galael 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Antonio Giovinazzi 12%  12%  [ 3 ]
Brendon Hartley 46%  46%  [ 12 ]
Danill Kvyat 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Robert Kubica 19%  19%  [ 5 ]
Tadasuke Makino 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Pascal Wehrlein 19%  19%  [ 5 ]
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:35 am 
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pokerman wrote:
If Red Bull want to replace Hartley for next year, if Albon continues to drive at the same level as Norris and Russell, then who better than Albon to replace him, why the need for Albon to prove himself for yet another year?


Because if they all continue like they are doing now, neither of them seems fully F1 ready as they have all been a bit up and down this season.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:56 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Just for clarification and pedantry: It’s “write off” which is cancellation of a bad debt or worthless asset. As in the bad debt is written off the books.

Yep bad grammar on my part.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:58 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If Red Bull want to replace Hartley for next year, if Albon continues to drive at the same level as Norris and Russell, then who better than Albon to replace him, why the need for Albon to prove himself for yet another year?


Because if they all continue like they are doing now, neither of them seems fully F1 ready as they have all been a bit up and down this season.

Well STR have already approached Norris.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If Red Bull want to replace Hartley for next year, if Albon continues to drive at the same level as Norris and Russell, then who better than Albon to replace him, why the need for Albon to prove himself for yet another year?


Because if they all continue like they are doing now, neither of them seems fully F1 ready as they have all been a bit up and down this season.

Well STR have already approached Norris.


Norris has the advantage of what he did the past years which is very impressive as it is. Albon doesn't have a resume as rich as Norris'.

But even though Norris is leading F2 up until know, I have to say I expected just that little bit more from him.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:10 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If Red Bull want to replace Hartley for next year, if Albon continues to drive at the same level as Norris and Russell, then who better than Albon to replace him, why the need for Albon to prove himself for yet another year?


Because if they all continue like they are doing now, neither of them seems fully F1 ready as they have all been a bit up and down this season.

Well STR have already approached Norris.


Norris has the advantage of what he did the past years which is very impressive as it is. Albon doesn't have a resume as rich as Norris'.

But even though Norris is leading F2 up until know, I have to say I expected just that little bit more from him.

Sounds like you have high standards?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If Red Bull want to replace Hartley for next year, if Albon continues to drive at the same level as Norris and Russell, then who better than Albon to replace him, why the need for Albon to prove himself for yet another year?


Because if they all continue like they are doing now, neither of them seems fully F1 ready as they have all been a bit up and down this season.

Well STR have already approached Norris.


Norris has the advantage of what he did the past years which is very impressive as it is. Albon doesn't have a resume as rich as Norris'.

But even though Norris is leading F2 up until know, I have to say I expected just that little bit more from him.

Sounds like you have high standards?


So you can't see for yourself that all front-runners in F2 this year have been up and down?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:00 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
But even though Norris is leading F2 up until know, I have to say I expected just that little bit more from him.

Sounds like you have high standards?

It's hard not to, with the shadow of Leclerc looming over Norris' shoulder. By this point in the 2017 season Leclerc was still setting pole at every single event and winning the feature race at least if he didn't run into trouble. You have to admit that Norris (whom I'm a big supporter of, incidentally) hasn't matched that level yet.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:33 am 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Because if they all continue like they are doing now, neither of them seems fully F1 ready as they have all been a bit up and down this season.

Well STR have already approached Norris.


Norris has the advantage of what he did the past years which is very impressive as it is. Albon doesn't have a resume as rich as Norris'.

But even though Norris is leading F2 up until know, I have to say I expected just that little bit more from him.

Sounds like you have high standards?


So you can't see for yourself that all front-runners in F2 this year have been up and down?

I'm not sure you realise how unreliable the new engines/clutches have been this year?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:45 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
But even though Norris is leading F2 up until know, I have to say I expected just that little bit more from him.

Sounds like you have high standards?

It's hard not to, with the shadow of Leclerc looming over Norris' shoulder. By this point in the 2017 season Leclerc was still setting pole at every single event and winning the feature race at least if he didn't run into trouble. You have to admit that Norris (whom I'm a big supporter of, incidentally) hasn't matched that level yet.

The team that Leclerc drove for dominated the series the year before, Norris's team has not competed at that level for a few years, although it's a reset with the new cars/engines, the tyres are the same and need to be learnt.

Very few people expected Norris to dominant F2 given the general inexperience, general opinion would have been that he would do very well to win it in his rookie season, hence what he is actually doing has impressed a lot of people including Red Bull, and when you miss out on what you may consider to be the best driver then why not get one that seems to be pushing him hard and has no F1 affiliation like perhaps Albon?

This is what happened with Mercedes, they missed out on Verstappen so signed the driver that was giving Verstappen a hard time, Ocon.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:48 am 
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pokerman wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
Just for clarification and pedantry: It’s “write off” which is cancellation of a bad debt or worthless asset. As in the bad debt is written off the books.

Yep bad grammar on my part.

I wasn’t playing grammar Nazi on you. Just throwing a definition out there because another poster wasn’t familiar with the term.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:55 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well STR have already approached Norris.


Norris has the advantage of what he did the past years which is very impressive as it is. Albon doesn't have a resume as rich as Norris'.

But even though Norris is leading F2 up until know, I have to say I expected just that little bit more from him.

Sounds like you have high standards?


So you can't see for yourself that all front-runners in F2 this year have been up and down?

I'm not sure you realise how unreliable the new engines/clutches have been this year?


You can't explain all results with the clutch and engine.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:20 am 
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pokerman wrote:
The team that Leclerc drove for dominated the series the year before, Norris's team has not competed at that level for a few years, although it's a reset with the new cars/engines, the tyres are the same and need to be learnt.


Team doesn't matter as much as you would make it out though. It was DAMS, then Vandoorne came to ART and it was ART, then Gasly and Leclerc put Prema on top, now Prema have Gelael and De Vries and they're in fifth in the constructor standings and it's Carlin on top.

Pointing to drivers lifting up the teams instead of otherwise.

As for needing experience with the tyres: given that Albon is not a rookie, this would actually weaken your case for him.

Quote:
Very few people expected Norris to dominant F2 given the general inexperience, general opinion would have been that he would do very well to win it in his rookie season


I had him tipped as one of the outright favorites to win it. The reason is two-fold: one, an entirely new car and even if the tyres remained the same, they're still mated to a new car so expect a learning curve for everyone.
And two, the driver level last year wasn't the highest and then some of the best left (Leclerc evidently but also Rowland e.g.). So apart from the rookies and maybe Albon, the driver level isn't fantastic.

Leading me to question those that thought Norris "would do very well to win it", who did they then think would win it?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:54 pm 
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I thought Norris would do a bit better myself tbh. He's done well to hold the lead and he's made the fewest errors but pace wise I'd be lying if I said I wasn't expecting a bit more. I think I just expected to see some Leclerc like dominance so that could be skewing my expectations somewhat.

This could be me just completely underestimating the likes of Russell and Albon though to be fair and Norris has still looked very impressive but yeah I expected him to separate himself from the rest pretty comfortably and he hasn't (yet anyway).

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:42 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Norris has the advantage of what he did the past years which is very impressive as it is. Albon doesn't have a resume as rich as Norris'.

But even though Norris is leading F2 up until know, I have to say I expected just that little bit more from him.

Sounds like you have high standards?


So you can't see for yourself that all front-runners in F2 this year have been up and down?

I'm not sure you realise how unreliable the new engines/clutches have been this year?


You can't explain all results with the clutch and engine.

I can explain a lot of results on the clutches and engines.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:52 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The team that Leclerc drove for dominated the series the year before, Norris's team has not competed at that level for a few years, although it's a reset with the new cars/engines, the tyres are the same and need to be learnt.


Team doesn't matter as much as you would make it out though. It was DAMS, then Vandoorne came to ART and it was ART, then Gasly and Leclerc put Prema on top, now Prema have Gelael and De Vries and they're in fifth in the constructor standings and it's Carlin on top.

Pointing to drivers lifting up the teams instead of otherwise.

As for needing experience with the tyres: given that Albon is not a rookie, this would actually weaken your case for him.

Quote:
Very few people expected Norris to dominant F2 given the general inexperience, general opinion would have been that he would do very well to win it in his rookie season


I had him tipped as one of the outright favorites to win it. The reason is two-fold: one, an entirely new car and even if the tyres remained the same, they're still mated to a new car so expect a learning curve for everyone.
And two, the driver level last year wasn't the highest and then some of the best left (Leclerc evidently but also Rowland e.g.). So apart from the rookies and maybe Albon, the driver level isn't fantastic.

Leading me to question those that thought Norris "would do very well to win it", who did they then think would win it?

It was said that Norris tried to get into the Prema team but the Stroll's, who are part owners , blocked it, then DVries got the drive and was thought to have a plum seat, then you have Markelov and Latifi who was staying with DAMS and didn't finish that far behind his teammate Rowland, no one could be sure of the effect the new car would make.

In respect to ART and Prema, ART won the title with Vandoorne and when Prema entered the following season they poached ART's top engineer, it's not like F1 but there is a reason why certain seats cost more money, that's why you see someone like Geleal at Prema, also why Latifi ended up at DAMS.

I see Latifi is still at DAMS his new teammate being Albon no less so how does he compare with Rowland who you see as a quality driver probably second best to Leclerc last year?

2017
3. Rowland (DAMS) 191
5. Latifi (DAMS) 178 (1 win + 8 podiums)

2018
3. Albon (DAMS) 71
10. Latifi (DAMS) 26 (1 podium)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:31 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
I thought Norris would do a bit better myself tbh. He's done well to hold the lead and he's made the fewest errors but pace wise I'd be lying if I said I wasn't expecting a bit more. I think I just expected to see some Leclerc like dominance so that could be skewing my expectations somewhat.

This could be me just completely underestimating the likes of Russell and Albon though to be fair and Norris has still looked very impressive but yeah I expected him to separate himself from the rest pretty comfortably and he hasn't (yet anyway).


I think your expectations are a little high TBH. A driver winning GP2 on the debut season almost never happens, let alone winning it with dominance. Don't forget as well that Norris is only 18 and has taken a big step up into GP2. I don't think it's essential for him to win the series this season.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:13 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I thought Norris would do a bit better myself tbh. He's done well to hold the lead and he's made the fewest errors but pace wise I'd be lying if I said I wasn't expecting a bit more. I think I just expected to see some Leclerc like dominance so that could be skewing my expectations somewhat.

This could be me just completely underestimating the likes of Russell and Albon though to be fair and Norris has still looked very impressive but yeah I expected him to separate himself from the rest pretty comfortably and he hasn't (yet anyway).


I think your expectations are a little high TBH. A driver winning GP2 on the debut season almost never happens, let alone winning it with dominance. Don't forget as well that Norris is only 18 and has taken a big step up into GP2. I don't think it's essential for him to win the series this season.


There's a new car, some good drivers have left and those that have remained maybe aren't (aside from Albon) that great at all. I don't think it's essential for him to win it this season either but given the factors in play I also had expected something a tad better.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:18 am 
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mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I thought Norris would do a bit better myself tbh. He's done well to hold the lead and he's made the fewest errors but pace wise I'd be lying if I said I wasn't expecting a bit more. I think I just expected to see some Leclerc like dominance so that could be skewing my expectations somewhat.

This could be me just completely underestimating the likes of Russell and Albon though to be fair and Norris has still looked very impressive but yeah I expected him to separate himself from the rest pretty comfortably and he hasn't (yet anyway).


I think your expectations are a little high TBH. A driver winning GP2 on the debut season almost never happens, let alone winning it with dominance. Don't forget as well that Norris is only 18 and has taken a big step up into GP2. I don't think it's essential for him to win the series this season.


There's a new car, some good drivers have left and those that have remained maybe aren't (aside from Albon) that great at all. I don't think it's essential for him to win it this season either but given the factors in play I also had expected something a tad better.


I think the field is tougher this year than last tbh.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:19 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I see Latifi is still at DAMS his new teammate being Albon no less so how does he compare with Rowland who you see as a quality driver probably second best to Leclerc last year?


Latifi had an uncharacteristically good season last year compared to just about the rest of his career up until now. What he's doing this year seems much more in line with what should be expected of him.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:25 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I thought Norris would do a bit better myself tbh. He's done well to hold the lead and he's made the fewest errors but pace wise I'd be lying if I said I wasn't expecting a bit more. I think I just expected to see some Leclerc like dominance so that could be skewing my expectations somewhat.

This could be me just completely underestimating the likes of Russell and Albon though to be fair and Norris has still looked very impressive but yeah I expected him to separate himself from the rest pretty comfortably and he hasn't (yet anyway).


I think your expectations are a little high TBH. A driver winning GP2 on the debut season almost never happens, let alone winning it with dominance. Don't forget as well that Norris is only 18 and has taken a big step up into GP2. I don't think it's essential for him to win the series this season.


There's a new car, some good drivers have left and those that have remained maybe aren't (aside from Albon) that great at all. I don't think it's essential for him to win it this season either but given the factors in play I also had expected something a tad better.


I think the field is tougher this year than last tbh.


How so? It's literally last year's field but strongly reduced (top few drivers with Lerclerc and Rowland moving out) and a few rookies added.

The best drivers in F2 now are those few rookies (e.g. Norris, Russell) and Albon. So why shouldn't we expect Norris to be able to win it?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:34 am 
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mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I thought Norris would do a bit better myself tbh. He's done well to hold the lead and he's made the fewest errors but pace wise I'd be lying if I said I wasn't expecting a bit more. I think I just expected to see some Leclerc like dominance so that could be skewing my expectations somewhat.

This could be me just completely underestimating the likes of Russell and Albon though to be fair and Norris has still looked very impressive but yeah I expected him to separate himself from the rest pretty comfortably and he hasn't (yet anyway).


I think your expectations are a little high TBH. A driver winning GP2 on the debut season almost never happens, let alone winning it with dominance. Don't forget as well that Norris is only 18 and has taken a big step up into GP2. I don't think it's essential for him to win the series this season.


There's a new car, some good drivers have left and those that have remained maybe aren't (aside from Albon) that great at all. I don't think it's essential for him to win it this season either but given the factors in play I also had expected something a tad better.


I think the field is tougher this year than last tbh.


How so? It's literally last year's field but strongly reduced (top few drivers with Lerclerc and Rowland moving out) and a few rookies added.

The best drivers in F2 now are those few rookies (e.g. Norris, Russell) and Albon. So why shouldn't we expect Norris to be able to win it?


Still the second place man from last year Markelov. F2/GP2 is usually won by people like Markelov. Before Leclerc who was the last rookie to take the championship at level?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:54 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think your expectations are a little high TBH. A driver winning GP2 on the debut season almost never happens, let alone winning it with dominance. Don't forget as well that Norris is only 18 and has taken a big step up into GP2. I don't think it's essential for him to win the series this season.


There's a new car, some good drivers have left and those that have remained maybe aren't (aside from Albon) that great at all. I don't think it's essential for him to win it this season either but given the factors in play I also had expected something a tad better.


I think the field is tougher this year than last tbh.


How so? It's literally last year's field but strongly reduced (top few drivers with Lerclerc and Rowland moving out) and a few rookies added.

The best drivers in F2 now are those few rookies (e.g. Norris, Russell) and Albon. So why shouldn't we expect Norris to be able to win it?


Still the second place man from last year Markelov. F2/GP2 is usually won by people like Markelov. Before Leclerc who was the last rookie to take the championship at level?


Yeah, Markelov is still there, but he's been there since 2014, plus his experience would be negated for a good part because of there being an entirely new car... So I don't really see how this year's field is stronger outside of the rookies that have joined.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:07 am 
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Well, going into 2017 all the top 4 from 2016 had gone. The only major new addition in terms of talent was GP3 champion Leclerc.

Going into this season not only do you have 5 of last year's top 10 and last year's vice champion but you also have the highly rated F3 champion (Norris) and the current GP3 champion and vice champion - Russell and Aitkin.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:17 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Well, going into 2017 all the top 4 from 2016 had gone. The only major new addition in terms of talent was GP3 champion Leclerc.

Going into this season not only do you have 5 of last year's top 10 and last year's vice champion


But "number of people that remain" surely isn't the basis to compare field quality? Just putting last year's field next to this year's field and you have a strongly reduced field, with a few top drivers gone. Those that remained are mostly journeymen (I'll exclude Albon from this category) and their experience mostly negated through use of a new car.

Quote:
but you also have the highly rated F3 champion (Norris) and the current GP3 champion and vice champion - Russell and Aitkin.


But that was also my point - the rookies are already the top drivers of the field regardless of experience, making it entirely reasonable to expect them to be at the front. No?
And then Norris has the most impressive resume of the rookies of past years so why not expect him to have the edge?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:31 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I thought Norris would do a bit better myself tbh. He's done well to hold the lead and he's made the fewest errors but pace wise I'd be lying if I said I wasn't expecting a bit more. I think I just expected to see some Leclerc like dominance so that could be skewing my expectations somewhat.

This could be me just completely underestimating the likes of Russell and Albon though to be fair and Norris has still looked very impressive but yeah I expected him to separate himself from the rest pretty comfortably and he hasn't (yet anyway).


I think your expectations are a little high TBH. A driver winning GP2 on the debut season almost never happens, let alone winning it with dominance. Don't forget as well that Norris is only 18 and has taken a big step up into GP2. I don't think it's essential for him to win the series this season.


I think they probably were a touch high to be fair but I have to agree with what mds goes on to say about the strength of the field which also played a part in my thinking that Norris could separate himself even on debut. Underrating Russell played a role, As did Norris's form in Daytona where he was sublime so I think a few factors went in to skewing my expectations.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:36 am 
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mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Well, going into 2017 all the top 4 from 2016 had gone. The only major new addition in terms of talent was GP3 champion Leclerc.

Going into this season not only do you have 5 of last year's top 10 and last year's vice champion


But "number of people that remain" surely isn't the basis to compare field quality? Just putting last year's field next to this year's field and you have a strongly reduced field, with a few top drivers gone. Those that remained are mostly journeymen (I'll exclude Albon from this category) and their experience mostly negated through use of a new car.

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but you also have the highly rated F3 champion (Norris) and the current GP3 champion and vice champion - Russell and Aitkin.


But that was also my point - the rookies are already the top drivers of the field regardless of experience, making it entirely reasonable to expect them to be at the front. No?
And then Norris has the most impressive resume of the rookies of past years so why not expect him to have the edge?


Just for a start he has to beat the guy who won a series above him last season. Even then, rookies so rarely win at that level and I don't think any have done it while taking as big a step up as Norris. Not since the F3000 days anyone.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:49 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Just for a start he has to beat the guy who won a series above him last season. Even then, rookies so rarely win at that level and I don't think any have done it while taking as big a step up as Norris. Not since the F3000 days anyone.


I wouldn't necessarily rank GP3 above F3 if you're taking into account that the series has also been on a downward slope the last few years. The 2017 GP3 field really doesn't look that much stronger (if anything) than the 2017 F3 field.

The rookies argument... I think I've adressed it. It's a new car, the experience element counts for a lot less.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:59 am 
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mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Just for a start he has to beat the guy who won a series above him last season. Even then, rookies so rarely win at that level and I don't think any have done it while taking as big a step up as Norris. Not since the F3000 days anyone.


I wouldn't necessarily rank GP3 above F3 if you're taking into account that the series has also been on a downward slope the last few years. The 2017 GP3 field really doesn't look that much stronger (if anything) than the 2017 F3 field.

The rookies argument... I think I've adressed it. It's a new car, the experience element counts for a lot less.


Hmmm, last time they changed cars the highest finishing rookie was 11th. It didn't seem to even things up an awful lot.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:08 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Just for a start he has to beat the guy who won a series above him last season. Even then, rookies so rarely win at that level and I don't think any have done it while taking as big a step up as Norris. Not since the F3000 days anyone.


I wouldn't necessarily rank GP3 above F3 if you're taking into account that the series has also been on a downward slope the last few years. The 2017 GP3 field really doesn't look that much stronger (if anything) than the 2017 F3 field.

The rookies argument... I think I've adressed it. It's a new car, the experience element counts for a lot less.


Hmmm, last time they changed cars the highest finishing rookie was 11th. It didn't seem to even things up an awful lot.


But then again you would have to factor in the quality of the rookies. It's not because there's a new car, a rookie should automatically be at the front - you still need good rookies for that. I mean, nobody ever expected Coletti to dominate GP2 from where he was coming. His results before that were average so why would he suddenly be at the front in GP2 just because there was a new car?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:02 am 
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mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Just for a start he has to beat the guy who won a series above him last season. Even then, rookies so rarely win at that level and I don't think any have done it while taking as big a step up as Norris. Not since the F3000 days anyone.


I wouldn't necessarily rank GP3 above F3 if you're taking into account that the series has also been on a downward slope the last few years. The 2017 GP3 field really doesn't look that much stronger (if anything) than the 2017 F3 field.

The rookies argument... I think I've adressed it. It's a new car, the experience element counts for a lot less.


Hmmm, last time they changed cars the highest finishing rookie was 11th. It didn't seem to even things up an awful lot.


But then again you would have to factor in the quality of the rookies. It's not because there's a new car, a rookie should automatically be at the front - you still need good rookies for that. I mean, nobody ever expected Coletti to dominate GP2 from where he was coming. His results before that were average so why would he suddenly be at the front in GP2 just because there was a new car?


No but look at some of the guys that finished near the top. Experience was still clearly a factor.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:27 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Just for a start he has to beat the guy who won a series above him last season. Even then, rookies so rarely win at that level and I don't think any have done it while taking as big a step up as Norris. Not since the F3000 days anyone.


I wouldn't necessarily rank GP3 above F3 if you're taking into account that the series has also been on a downward slope the last few years. The 2017 GP3 field really doesn't look that much stronger (if anything) than the 2017 F3 field.

The rookies argument... I think I've adressed it. It's a new car, the experience element counts for a lot less.


Hmmm, last time they changed cars the highest finishing rookie was 11th. It didn't seem to even things up an awful lot.


But then again you would have to factor in the quality of the rookies. It's not because there's a new car, a rookie should automatically be at the front - you still need good rookies for that. I mean, nobody ever expected Coletti to dominate GP2 from where he was coming. His results before that were average so why would he suddenly be at the front in GP2 just because there was a new car?


No but look at some of the guys that finished near the top. Experience was still clearly a factor.


Well, it is "a" factor I think, otherwise Markelov would probably not be near the top this year. But the advantage seems fairly limited.
Going by the facts, ultimately in Norris, Russell and Aitken we see three rookies and they're all near the top, so going by that this new car doesn't overly rewards experience.

All in all my main thought is still that if you take the rookies out then the driver field is very mediocre except for Albon (and maybe de Vries, but he has disappointed before so...), so I still see no reason not to expect them to perform very well.

Anyway, seems like we have our opinions so let's leave it at that :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:45 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see Latifi is still at DAMS his new teammate being Albon no less so how does he compare with Rowland who you see as a quality driver probably second best to Leclerc last year?


Latifi had an uncharacteristically good season last year compared to just about the rest of his career up until now. What he's doing this year seems much more in line with what should be expected of him.

That's rather convenient.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:48 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think your expectations are a little high TBH. A driver winning GP2 on the debut season almost never happens, let alone winning it with dominance. Don't forget as well that Norris is only 18 and has taken a big step up into GP2. I don't think it's essential for him to win the series this season.


There's a new car, some good drivers have left and those that have remained maybe aren't (aside from Albon) that great at all. I don't think it's essential for him to win it this season either but given the factors in play I also had expected something a tad better.


I think the field is tougher this year than last tbh.


How so? It's literally last year's field but strongly reduced (top few drivers with Lerclerc and Rowland moving out) and a few rookies added.

The best drivers in F2 now are those few rookies (e.g. Norris, Russell) and Albon. So why shouldn't we expect Norris to be able to win it?


Still the second place man from last year Markelov. F2/GP2 is usually won by people like Markelov. Before Leclerc who was the last rookie to take the championship at level?

Hulkenberg in 2009.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:11 am 
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mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Well, going into 2017 all the top 4 from 2016 had gone. The only major new addition in terms of talent was GP3 champion Leclerc.

Going into this season not only do you have 5 of last year's top 10 and last year's vice champion


But "number of people that remain" surely isn't the basis to compare field quality? Just putting last year's field next to this year's field and you have a strongly reduced field, with a few top drivers gone. Those that remained are mostly journeymen (I'll exclude Albon from this category) and their experience mostly negated through use of a new car.

Quote:
but you also have the highly rated F3 champion (Norris) and the current GP3 champion and vice champion - Russell and Aitkin.


But that was also my point - the rookies are already the top drivers of the field regardless of experience, making it entirely reasonable to expect them to be at the front. No?
And then Norris has the most impressive resume of the rookies of past years so why not expect him to have the edge?

He still has far less experience:-

1. Norris F3-F2
2. Markelov GP2-GP2-GP2-F2-F2
3. Albon F3-GP3-F2-F2
4. Russell F3-F3-GP3-F2
5. Aitken GP3-GP3-F2
6. de Vries FR3.5-GP3-F2-F2
7. Camara F3-F3-F2-F2
8. Fuoco F3-GP3-GP3-F2-F2
9. Geleal F3-F3-FR3.5-GP2-F2-F2
10. Latifi F3-F3-FR3.5-GP2-F2-F2

Also like has been said he's only 18 years old, he's the youngest driver on the grid with the least experience and he's leading the title race, yet he should be doing more?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:15 am 
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mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Just for a start he has to beat the guy who won a series above him last season. Even then, rookies so rarely win at that level and I don't think any have done it while taking as big a step up as Norris. Not since the F3000 days anyone.


I wouldn't necessarily rank GP3 above F3 if you're taking into account that the series has also been on a downward slope the last few years. The 2017 GP3 field really doesn't look that much stronger (if anything) than the 2017 F3 field.

The rookies argument... I think I've adressed it. It's a new car, the experience element counts for a lot less.

F3 drivers go on to GP3 not the other way around, GP3 drivers have more experience.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:21 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see Latifi is still at DAMS his new teammate being Albon no less so how does he compare with Rowland who you see as a quality driver probably second best to Leclerc last year?


Latifi had an uncharacteristically good season last year compared to just about the rest of his career up until now. What he's doing this year seems much more in line with what should be expected of him.

That's rather convenient.


Comment on the merit/content or not at all please. Look at Latifi's entire resume and tell me if last year looks an outlier or representative for the rest of his career.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:21 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Just for a start he has to beat the guy who won a series above him last season. Even then, rookies so rarely win at that level and I don't think any have done it while taking as big a step up as Norris. Not since the F3000 days anyone.


I wouldn't necessarily rank GP3 above F3 if you're taking into account that the series has also been on a downward slope the last few years. The 2017 GP3 field really doesn't look that much stronger (if anything) than the 2017 F3 field.

The rookies argument... I think I've adressed it. It's a new car, the experience element counts for a lot less.

F3 drivers go on to GP3 not the other way around, GP3 drivers have more experience.


Yeah, and?
The point was: The 2017 GP3 field really doesn't look that much stronger (if anything) than the 2017 F3 field.

GP3 is dying (also with the planned merge with F3 next year), and it is apparent in the driver field. Just look at what's left this year..

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:25 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Also like has been said he's only 18 years old, he's the youngest driver on the grid with the least experience and he's leading the title race, yet he should be doing more?


He 'should' do nothing. I had expected just a bit more, that's it, and overall I think all drivers have been up and down somewhat so I think most could use at least another year in F2.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:43 am 
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If Norris doesn't win F2 this year I certainly think he would benefit from another year at that level. There's no rush.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:48 am 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I see Latifi is still at DAMS his new teammate being Albon no less so how does he compare with Rowland who you see as a quality driver probably second best to Leclerc last year?


Latifi had an uncharacteristically good season last year compared to just about the rest of his career up until now. What he's doing this year seems much more in line with what should be expected of him.

That's rather convenient.


Comment on the merit/content or not at all please. Look at Latifi's entire resume and tell me if last year looks an outlier or representative for the rest of his career.

The fact that an unrated driver could finish 5th last season in F2 sort of blows your argument that last years grid was stronger than this years grid with him doing far worse.

Last year can be explained by him getting more experience like we often see with drivers of perhaps lower talent but it still doesn't play to last years grid being exceptionally strong in respect to this year.

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