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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:43 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Racing drivers are not the same as other "athletes" and their abilities do not wain over time the way athletes who play physical sports (don't be smarty pasts guys) do because in those other sports the body is wearing down. Drivers' bodies do not wear down anywhere near to the level of those guys. If anything Alonso and Hamilton are proof that drivers actually get better with age because they exercise and refine the most crucial component of a driver and that's their brain. Keep in mind that today drivers use simulators constantly (less Kimi - which would likely help him squeeze a bit more speed) so their brains and entire skills sets remain sharp and don' drop off.

I think this is false, but I also think it's totally off-topic and likely to lead to yet another 'do F1 drivers drop off with age?' debate. So, to get back on topic...

How about Hulk's lap in Brazil 2010? It came totally out of nowhere, and to be a second faster than the top guys in a midfield car is a 1980s sort of performance. I don't believe I've seen an onboard, but obviously a hugely impressive lap from a purely stats point of view.

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PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:13 pm 
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The love for MC 2012 among MS-fans is quite understandable - there was not so much more to cheer about in his comeback years after all. In hindsight, the last bike accident had probably as much to do with it as the age.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:42 am 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Racing drivers are not the same as other "athletes" and their abilities do not wain over time the way athletes who play physical sports (don't be smarty pasts guys) do because in those other sports the body is wearing down. Drivers' bodies do not wear down anywhere near to the level of those guys. If anything Alonso and Hamilton are proof that drivers actually get better with age because they exercise and refine the most crucial component of a driver and that's their brain. Keep in mind that today drivers use simulators constantly (less Kimi - which would likely help him squeeze a bit more speed) so their brains and entire skills sets remain sharp and don' drop off.

I think this is false, but I also think it's totally off-topic and likely to lead to yet another 'do F1 drivers drop off with age?' debate. So, to get back on topic...

How about Hulk's lap in Brazil 2010? It came totally out of nowhere, and to be a second faster than the top guys in a midfield car is a 1980s sort of performance. I don't believe I've seen an onboard, but obviously a hugely impressive lap from a purely stats point of view.

The difference is you THINK this is false which is exactly how most people have come to believe that drivers skills diminish at some imaginary age range. Drivers work at sharpening their skills and reflexes yet don’t endure physical wear and tear. It’s not only illogical but irresponsible to go around trying to pass off opinion and assumptions as fact.

I’m one who disproves diminishing abilities due to wearing down from simply aging. At 43 years of age I needed a new prescription for my vision and had to do the peripheral exam which tests the weakest part of vision. Wouldn’t you know, that just like has been the case for the last 20+ years, I’m the only person to get a perfect score! The reason for that is that I’ve been a professional photo retoucher since I was 20 years old, as well as a prepress technician and production manager for advertising agencies, all of which requires an eagle eye. As such, I learned how to sharpen my focal range and have learned little tricks that allow me to see the most faint marks and blemishes, down to a single pixel. And since I have never stopped using my eyes in that fashion, I’ve suffered ZERO drop off in my visual acuity.

Drivers are no different.

In regards to Hulkenberg’s 2010 pole lap, while it was exciting, was manufactured via running with almost no fuel and the team knew there was no way he’d be able to use it as an advantage in the race and would go backwards and finish further behind. The initial moment however was incredibly exciting.

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HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:58 am 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Racing drivers are not the same as other "athletes" and their abilities do not wain over time the way athletes who play physical sports (don't be smarty pasts guys) do because in those other sports the body is wearing down. Drivers' bodies do not wear down anywhere near to the level of those guys. If anything Alonso and Hamilton are proof that drivers actually get better with age because they exercise and refine the most crucial component of a driver and that's their brain. Keep in mind that today drivers use simulators constantly (less Kimi - which would likely help him squeeze a bit more speed) so their brains and entire skills sets remain sharp and don' drop off.

I think this is false, but I also think it's totally off-topic and likely to lead to yet another 'do F1 drivers drop off with age?' debate. So, to get back on topic...

How about Hulk's lap in Brazil 2010? It came totally out of nowhere, and to be a second faster than the top guys in a midfield car is a 1980s sort of performance. I don't believe I've seen an onboard, but obviously a hugely impressive lap from a purely stats point of view.

The difference is you THINK this is false which is exactly how most people have come to believe that drivers skills diminish at some imaginary age range. Drivers work at sharpening their skills and reflexes yet don’t endure physical wear and tear. It’s not only illogical but irresponsible to go around trying to pass off opinion and assumptions as fact.

I’m one who disproves diminishing abilities due to wearing down from simply aging. At 43 years of age I needed a new prescription for my vision and had to do the peripheral exam which tests the weakest part of vision. Wouldn’t you know, that just like has been the case for the last 20+ years, I’m the only person to get a perfect score! The reason for that is that I’ve been a professional photo retoucher since I was 20 years old, as well as a prepress technician and production manager for advertising agencies, all of which requires an eagle eye. As such, I learned how to sharpen my focal range and have learned little tricks that allow me to see the most faint marks and blemishes, down to a single pixel. And since I have never stopped using my eyes in that fashion, I’ve suffered ZERO drop off in my visual acuity.

Drivers are no different.

In regards to Hulkenberg’s 2010 pole lap, while it was exciting, was manufactured via running with almost no fuel and the team knew there was no way he’d be able to use it as an advantage in the race and would go backwards and finish further behind. The initial moment however was incredibly exciting.

_________________
HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:57 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Racing drivers are not the same as other "athletes" and their abilities do not wain over time the way athletes who play physical sports (don't be smarty pasts guys) do because in those other sports the body is wearing down. Drivers' bodies do not wear down anywhere near to the level of those guys. If anything Alonso and Hamilton are proof that drivers actually get better with age because they exercise and refine the most crucial component of a driver and that's their brain. Keep in mind that today drivers use simulators constantly (less Kimi - which would likely help him squeeze a bit more speed) so their brains and entire skills sets remain sharp and don' drop off.

I think this is false, but I also think it's totally off-topic and likely to lead to yet another 'do F1 drivers drop off with age?' debate. So, to get back on topic...

How about Hulk's lap in Brazil 2010? It came totally out of nowhere, and to be a second faster than the top guys in a midfield car is a 1980s sort of performance. I don't believe I've seen an onboard, but obviously a hugely impressive lap from a purely stats point of view.

The difference is you THINK this is false which is exactly how most people have come to believe that drivers skills diminish at some imaginary age range. Drivers work at sharpening their skills and reflexes yet don’t endure physical wear and tear. It’s not only illogical but irresponsible to go around trying to pass off opinion and assumptions as fact.

I’m one who disproves diminishing abilities due to wearing down from simply aging. At 43 years of age I needed a new prescription for my vision and had to do the peripheral exam which tests the weakest part of vision. Wouldn’t you know, that just like has been the case for the last 20+ years, I’m the only person to get a perfect score! The reason for that is that I’ve been a professional photo retoucher since I was 20 years old, as well as a prepress technician and production manager for advertising agencies, all of which requires an eagle eye. As such, I learned how to sharpen my focal range and have learned little tricks that allow me to see the most faint marks and blemishes, down to a single pixel. And since I have never stopped using my eyes in that fashion, I’ve suffered ZERO drop off in my visual acuity.

Drivers are no different.

In regards to Hulkenberg’s 2010 pole lap, while it was exciting, was manufactured via running with almost no fuel and the team knew there was no way he’d be able to use it as an advantage in the race and would go backwards and finish further behind. The initial moment however was incredibly exciting.


I recall reading an article by Martin Brundle around 2012 regarding Michael Schumacher's return to F1. He said as a person ages their willingness to take the same risks as in their youth often diminishes. Schumacher was 42-years-old at the time with a wife and two children, and Brundle speculated that his position in life (and indeed the position of anybody who has established themselves a family, or something they live for outside of motor racing) could contribute to an seeming drop in speed on the racetrack.

My recollection of Brundle's summary would be something along the lines of: Schumacher (or indeed any aged driver) isn't necessarily any slower, their physical strength any less or their reflexes more strained than in their prime. As you say, F1 MERCENARY, driver bodies aren't destroyed by a life in the cockpit in the same way other professional athletes' bodies are - and things like eyesight and reflexes can be trained to keep up to a competent level for longer than a traditional athlete could keep in shape. Usain bolt could train as much as possible, but I can't imagine he will be able to run 100m in 10 seconds when he's 40-years-old. However that life experience as a racecar driver - a career that puts you on the edge of potential injury, or at least fear of injury, at a near permanent basis once you're on the track - can take its toll on your competitiveness around a single lap. Maybe you're imperceptibly less willing to get as close to that barrier as you were 15 years ago, or you brake a couple of metres earlier. Even if this is causing you to lose only a miniscule amount of time - say 0.015s around each corner - around a 20-corner lap that will add up to three tenths a lap.

Schumacher's average qualifying gap to Rosberg in 2012? 0.257s.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:25 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Racing drivers are not the same as other "athletes" and their abilities do not wain over time the way athletes who play physical sports (don't be smarty pasts guys) do because in those other sports the body is wearing down. Drivers' bodies do not wear down anywhere near to the level of those guys. If anything Alonso and Hamilton are proof that drivers actually get better with age because they exercise and refine the most crucial component of a driver and that's their brain. Keep in mind that today drivers use simulators constantly (less Kimi - which would likely help him squeeze a bit more speed) so their brains and entire skills sets remain sharp and don' drop off.

I think this is false, but I also think it's totally off-topic and likely to lead to yet another 'do F1 drivers drop off with age?' debate. So, to get back on topic...

How about Hulk's lap in Brazil 2010? It came totally out of nowhere, and to be a second faster than the top guys in a midfield car is a 1980s sort of performance. I don't believe I've seen an onboard, but obviously a hugely impressive lap from a purely stats point of view.

The difference is you THINK this is false which is exactly how most people have come to believe that drivers skills diminish at some imaginary age range. Drivers work at sharpening their skills and reflexes yet don’t endure physical wear and tear. It’s not only illogical but irresponsible to go around trying to pass off opinion and assumptions as fact.

I’m one who disproves diminishing abilities due to wearing down from simply aging. At 43 years of age I needed a new prescription for my vision and had to do the peripheral exam which tests the weakest part of vision. Wouldn’t you know, that just like has been the case for the last 20+ years, I’m the only person to get a perfect score! The reason for that is that I’ve been a professional photo retoucher since I was 20 years old, as well as a prepress technician and production manager for advertising agencies, all of which requires an eagle eye. As such, I learned how to sharpen my focal range and have learned little tricks that allow me to see the most faint marks and blemishes, down to a single pixel. And since I have never stopped using my eyes in that fashion, I’ve suffered ZERO drop off in my visual acuity.

Drivers are no different.

In regards to Hulkenberg’s 2010 pole lap, while it was exciting, was manufactured via running with almost no fuel and the team knew there was no way he’d be able to use it as an advantage in the race and would go backwards and finish further behind. The initial moment however was incredibly exciting.


'RE Hulkenberg.

That's not true. 2010 was the first year the refuelling ban so everyone ran quali light. Hulk set two laps that day that would have put him on pole by miles. He just had something.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:35 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
In regards to Hulkenberg’s 2010 pole lap, while it was exciting, was manufactured via running with almost no fuel and the team knew there was no way he’d be able to use it as an advantage in the race and would go backwards and finish further behind. The initial moment however was incredibly exciting.

'RE Hulkenberg.

That's not true. 2010 was the first year the refuelling ban so everyone ran quali light. Hulk set two laps that day that would have put him on pole by miles. He just had something.

Yeah, that's the way I remembered it. :thumbup:

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:35 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
The love for MC 2012 among MS-fans is quite understandable - there was not so much more to cheer about in his comeback years after all. In hindsight, the last bike accident had probably as much to do with it as the age.


Really? I was generally happy with his performance. I never fell for the "he'll come back and win everything" hype, he was after all a 40+ year old without any racing for 3 years, with a broken neck from a biking accident and without any simulation work in a completely new era of racing.

He lost on points from Rosberg, but he seemed to be going only forward in the races when Rosberg was going backwards. By 2012 he was on par with him and dare I say maybe the better driver of the two, albeit way more unlucky, which is not really reflected on the points haul that year.

I was happy with that. If he could see Rosberg eye to eye, the guy who was matching Hamilton (one of the 3 best drivers of this era if not the best - depending who you ask!) at times and even beat him in 2016, then I was happy. Not bad for a grandpa.

But I guess you knew all that


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:52 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
The love for MC 2012 among MS-fans is quite understandable - there was not so much more to cheer about in his comeback years after all. In hindsight, the last bike accident had probably as much to do with it as the age.


Really? I was generally happy with his performance. I never fell for the "he'll come back and win everything" hype, he was after all a 40+ year old without any racing for 3 years, with a broken neck from a biking accident and without any simulation work in a completely new era of racing.

He lost on points from Rosberg, but he seemed to be going only forward in the races when Rosberg was going backwards. By 2012 he was on par with him and dare I say maybe the better driver of the two, albeit way more unlucky, which is not really reflected on the points haul that year.

I was happy with that. If he could see Rosberg eye to eye, the guy who was matching Hamilton (one of the 3 best drivers of this era if not the best - depending who you ask!) at times and even beat him in 2016, then I was happy. Not bad for a grandpa.

But I guess you knew all that


Well, Schumacher being better than Rosberg by 2012 is an opinion that requires a specifically one-sided Interpretation of the facts (or wishful thinking).

But apart from that - this is the way you see it and I am fine with that. The vast majority of MS-fans, however, were so so sure that MS would easily beat NR without much effort irrespective of age. And disappointment was huge when MS did not. There is really no denying of this.
Some still vigorously deny that age affected him in any way - see in this very thread. ;)
Furthermore, many MS-fans - maybe not you, though - were taking their utmost proud in wins, poles, records, etc. And in this regard, there was not so much to cheer about during his comeback years - in contrast to widespread expectation. That's why I find it understandable that the only standout result (in this regard) - the Monaco pole - is so popular among MS-fans.

Of course, there are exceptions, but in general my description was really not very controversial.

The last sentence is the most important one, anyway.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:19 pm 
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Lets keep it on topic ladies and gentlemen, if you want to discuss Schumacher's comeback, start a new thread.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:46 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Not so much a pole lap it self from a specific race, but I really enjoyed the battles from the late 90's when Schumacher and Hakkinen would pump laps one after the other taking the provisional pole only for the other driver to get it back. It was absolutely fascinating with some great laps. They were just pushing each other leaving their team mates miles (well, seconds) away.


Why I think the 12-lap quali was the best quali format. I couldn't care less about the first 45 minutes, but the last 15 minutes was the best F1 you'd see. Lap after lap of going back and forth. It was epic. The quali now is rubbish compared to that. Imagine Lewis and Sebastian trading fastest laps in a 12-lap format. That'd be some great TV that you'd never forget. Epicness.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:59 am 
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Mod Yellow wrote:
Lets keep it on topic ladies and gentlemen, if you want to discuss Schumacher's comeback, start a new thread.


Noted. So itchy to reply, but noted!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:01 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Not so much a pole lap it self from a specific race, but I really enjoyed the battles from the late 90's when Schumacher and Hakkinen would pump laps one after the other taking the provisional pole only for the other driver to get it back. It was absolutely fascinating with some great laps. They were just pushing each other leaving their team mates miles (well, seconds) away.


Why I think the 12-lap quali was the best quali format. I couldn't care less about the first 45 minutes, but the last 15 minutes was the best F1 you'd see. Lap after lap of going back and forth. It was epic. The quali now is rubbish compared to that. Imagine Lewis and Sebastian trading fastest laps in a 12-lap format. That'd be some great TV that you'd never forget. Epicness.


Yeah, the shootouts were always happening at the last minutes, that was the most interesting bit. I agree it would be great to see them trade lap after lap to try and better their time. Like a mini race against the clock


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:07 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Not so much a pole lap it self from a specific race, but I really enjoyed the battles from the late 90's when Schumacher and Hakkinen would pump laps one after the other taking the provisional pole only for the other driver to get it back. It was absolutely fascinating with some great laps. They were just pushing each other leaving their team mates miles (well, seconds) away.


Why I think the 12-lap quali was the best quali format. I couldn't care less about the first 45 minutes, but the last 15 minutes was the best F1 you'd see. Lap after lap of going back and forth. It was epic. The quali now is rubbish compared to that. Imagine Lewis and Sebastian trading fastest laps in a 12-lap format. That'd be some great TV that you'd never forget. Epicness.


Yeah, the shootouts were always happening at the last minutes, that was the most interesting bit. I agree it would be great to see them trade lap after lap to try and better their time. Like a mini race against the clock

that used to happen in the '80s too, IIRC (and doubtless before that), and it was an edge of the seat experience watching the drivers going out and bettering their time against each other. I remember the camera panning to the pits and seeing the drivers in the cars with monitors strapped in front of them, going out when it looked like they were falling behind. But the science of it all has moved on a lot and that together with the tyres we have now means that it's unlikely to be replicated. Since they started messing with the format I think the current system is the best compromise


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:38 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Ennis wrote:
EVERY LEWIS HAMILTON LAP EVER!!!! All 74!!

:lol: I seriously and without joke hope you get some day a place in the Hamilton pit area for this! :) Talking about fan commitment! :)


I'm not a fan, but I did put a lot of effort in to trying to find a sentence which would annoy both the Hamilton fans (as they'd take it as an over-exaggerated dig against them) and the anti-Hamiltons (who would take it as a crazed fanboy comment).

That was 4 hours work.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:46 am 
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Ennis wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Ennis wrote:
EVERY LEWIS HAMILTON LAP EVER!!!! All 74!!

:lol: I seriously and without joke hope you get some day a place in the Hamilton pit area for this! :) Talking about fan commitment! :)


I'm not a fan, but I did put a lot of effort in to trying to find a sentence which would annoy both the Hamilton fans (as they'd take it as an over-exaggerated dig against them) and the anti-Hamiltons (who would take it as a crazed fanboy comment).

That was 4 hours work.


You did great!


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