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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:13 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I still think Alonso is a top-shelf driver but I don't know how you can say that Lewis Hamilton isn't the #1 guy right now. When you literally win 50% of the races over a 5 year span of time, that has to count for something, doesn't it? Certainly it must count for more than what some fans think Alonso would have accomplished if he were up front.

Winning 50% of the races when for at least 60% of the time the only opposition was your team mate? How should that weigh up against the number of times that Alonso has beaten his team mate? Why should it count for more just because Hamilton's car also had the potential - some would say guarantee - of beating all the other cars, too?

Not taking anything away from the fact that Hamilton has performed well, but in a non-spec series winning races doesn't in any way prove a driver is better than another in different machinery.

Hamilton's teammates have been better than Alonso's during that time. I rate Jenson Button but that matchup with him and Alonso was 1-1 anyway (and the car was so bad that it's hard to even take anything away from that). Hamilton's opposition from other teams has been tougher as well these last two years. Lewis is racing against the likes of Vettel, Rosberg, Bottas, Ricciardo, Verstappen and Raikkonen while Alonso is racing against guys like Vandoorne, Ericson, Sainz, Perez, Ocon, etc. Not saying that Alonso is not top-shelf but at some stage, actual events have to matter don't they?

The fact that Hamilton has been dominant for such an extended period of time must matter on some level. It can't always be about "wouldas, couldas and shouldas". Even if you try to compare Hamilton and Alonso directly, the one sample you have is 2007; where Hamilton beat Alonso in his rookie year. I think ignoring or writing off Hamilton's success and instead giving Alonso credit for what you think he could do in a different situation is just not a balanced way of looking at things.


But it is the only way you can actually compare the two.

There's some truth to that sure. You certainly can't compare their results right now, when Hamilton is in a WDC-capable car and Alonso is in a car that struggles to even score points. That said, we certainly didn't give other drivers such a generous consideration while Michael Schumacher was dominating nor when any other dominant performer was racking up their achievements. Only for Alonso have I seen this behavior of giving him years of credit for what some people think he would accomplish in a better car. And Fernando is not the only top driver to find himself exiled to a noncompetitive team while still in his prime.

Emerson Fittipaldi is an even more extreme example of this. After winning two championships (at that time he was the youngest ever WDC - a record broken by Alonso actually) Fittipaldi left McLaren at 29 years of age and started his own team. From that point on, he never won anything in F1. Did people give him the benefit of the doubt? Did they still hold his name in higher regard than the likes of Lauda or Hunt despite the fact that he was no longer at the front and winning? No they did not. Regardless of what Fittipaldi had done in the past, he did not get some special dispensation to maintain his status as the #1 driver without actually having to prove himself under the crucible of a championship battle.

I wish Alonso's move to McLaren worked out better and that he had another chance to fight at the front but it's not right to give him credit for hypothetical achievements and not give Hamilton credit for actual achievements that are reaching historic levels.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:59 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Based on what? Alonso has been living on past reputation for half of a decade now. As far as I know, he's never been teamed with Vettel so I think it's speculative to claim that he's better. Alonso has been teamed with Hamilton and Hamilton had the upper-hand despite the fact that it was his first season in F1 so it's quite dubious to claim that Alonso is better than Hamilton. It seems that driving in a lousy car has enhanced Alonso's reputation among some fans. As though he would never make any mistakes or have any bad luck if he were up front right now. I think that's nonsense to be blunt. He would be driving against drivers of a much higher caliber if he were up front and the margin for error would become a lot slimmer. I think Alonso is great and absolutely top-shelf but I do get kind of sick of these exaggerated assertions.

He's still producing good results given his machinery and putting other drivers in the shade, so I can't imagine why you would think he's only living on past reputation. Kimi's often slated for not producing now, yet his past reputation was arguably just as high as Alonso's at one point. The reason they are viewed differently now is because of how they are driving now, not because of how they used to.

I still think Alonso is a top-shelf driver but I don't know how you can say that Lewis Hamilton isn't the #1 guy right now. When you literally win 50% of the races over a 5 year span of time, that has to count for something, doesn't it? Certainly it must count for more than what some fans think Alonso would have accomplished if he were up front.

Winning 50% of the races when for at least 60% of the time the only opposition was your team mate? How should that weigh up against the number of times that Alonso has beaten his team mate? Why should it count for more just because Hamilton's car also had the potential - some would say guarantee - of beating all the other cars, too?

Not taking anything away from the fact that Hamilton has performed well, but in a non-spec series winning races doesn't in any way prove a driver is better than another in different machinery.

Hamilton's teammates have been better than Alonso's during that time. I rate Jenson Button but that matchup with him and Alonso was 1-1 anyway (and the car was so bad that it's hard to even take anything away from that). Hamilton's opposition from other teams has been tougher as well these last two years. Lewis is racing against the likes of Vettel, Rosberg, Bottas, Ricciardo, Verstappen and Raikkonen while Alonso is racing against guys like Vandoorne, Ericson, Sainz, Perez, Ocon, etc. Not saying that Alonso is not top-shelf but at some stage, actual events have to matter don't they?

The fact that Hamilton has been dominant for such an extended period of time must matter on some level. It can't always be about "wouldas, couldas and shouldas". Even if you try to compare Hamilton and Alonso directly, the one sample you have is 2007; where Hamilton beat Alonso in his rookie year. I think ignoring or writing off Hamilton's success and instead giving Alonso credit for what you think he could do in a different situation is just not a balanced way of looking at things.

You can only work with the machinery you're given. And Alonso has generally done a sterling job in the machinery at his disposal. As has Hamilton, to be sure. But I don't see that Hamilton has had a tougher time of it than Alonso has, just a different one. We know they are both excellent drivers and both have excelled with the machinery they have had. I think it's virtually impossible to say with any certainty which driver is best right now and races won is not a fair or accurate representation of their relative performances


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:17 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Why is it with Alonso, its about what he will do in other peoples car? Your assumption is based on the season going the same way and Alonso getting all the good results Vettel got and none of the bad.


Alonso is better than Vettel and Hamilton, I can't see him making the mistakes Vettel has made this year. Vettel is 24 points behind while his main rival has had a mechanical dnf, shows how costly his mistakes have been.

I'm sure if I said Alonso would be on more points than Hamilton it would be fine though ;)

Based on what? Alonso has been living on past reputation for half of a decade now. As far as I know, he's never been teamed with Vettel so I think it's speculative to claim that he's better. Alonso has been teamed with Hamilton and Hamilton had the upper-hand despite the fact that it was his first season in F1 so it's quite dubious to claim that Alonso is better than Hamilton. It seems that driving in a lousy car has enhanced Alonso's reputation among some fans. As though he would never make any mistakes or have any bad luck if he were up front right now. I think that's nonsense to be blunt. He would be driving against drivers of a much higher caliber if he were up front and the margin for error would become a lot slimmer. I think Alonso is great and absolutely top-shelf but I do get kind of sick of these exaggerated assertions.

He's still producing good results given his machinery and putting other drivers in the shade, so I can't imagine why you would think he's only living on past reputation. Kimi's often slated for not producing now, yet his past reputation was arguably just as high as Alonso's at one point. The reason they are viewed differently now is because of how they are driving now, not because of how they used to.

I still think Alonso is a top-shelf driver but I don't know how you can say that Lewis Hamilton isn't the #1 guy right now. When you literally win 50% of the races over a 5 year span of time, that has to count for something, doesn't it? Certainly it must count for more than what some fans think Alonso would have accomplished if he were up front.


It's the bad thing about non spec series but who else was in a position to win 50% of the races in the past 5 years? It's just Lewis and Rosberg so Lewis doing it isn't that surprising is it when the other quit after 3 of them to be fair. Using an accomplishment literally only he could achieve as the reason he can't be challenged for the No.1 sounds just as shaky as just assuming Alonso could've done the same or better.

During the previous 5 years to that there was plenty of people who felt Lewis was the best driver in F1 despite not winning 50% of the races and having the least stats of the top 3 at the time and finishing behind Alonso 4 years on the trot. It's a subjective thing.

On the later Fittipaldi point, his star waned because his form declined in 78/79 and he was getting beat by nobodies sitting next to him, if he'd maintained his form he'd have maintained his stature. Until Alonso visibly declines, makes more mistakes, more inconsistent pace and is getting beat by nobodies his star won't wane as there's no reason for it to just yet. And hopping into other series and being competitive also helps people believe he's still in his pomp.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:34 pm 
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Bump.

So am I right in believing Hamilton > Seb?

Seb is doing his best to prove me right.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:50 pm 
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FrusEldar wrote:
Bump.

So am I right in believing Hamilton > Seb?

Seb is doing his best to prove me right.


I don't know..... Sebastian and Ferrari are doing it again.. being their own enemy... I kind of get the feeling if Alonso or Michael was in that car.. they would be winning more.

I think the Ferrari package can still win the majority of the races. We are now at the point between Merc/Ferrari that the slightest issue can cost the win. The slightly wrong strategy, mistake, weather and even the safety car at the wrong time can be the difference between 1st and 2nd.

Still, it's good.. we can't sit there and say "Oh look, qualifies 1st and goes off in to the distance". I hope for the Championship sake that Vettel realises that not every move will define the race victory and sometimes.. you just have to accept being over taken.. Kimi showed it the first time with Lewis on how to defend not too hard and fight back. Shame for Kimi that the strategy wasn't perhaps perfect.

If Vettel does lose it again this year.. surely something must change at Ferrari. It would be two years where they've had a race winning car but team/driver mistakes have cost them... going through the mid pack quickly means nothing if you make mistakes at the front costing the win...

I want this to go down to the wire.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:26 pm 
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FrusEldar wrote:
Bump.

So am I right in believing Hamilton > Seb?

Seb is doing his best to prove me right.

Honestly, I've never thought that there was even really a debate about this. The debate is between Hamilton and Alonso. For me, Vettel is clearly a half step behind those two when you look for the best drivers of the modern era. He proved it for the brief time Ricciardo was his teammate and if Leclerc is his teammate next season, I believe he will be exposed again.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
FrusEldar wrote:
Bump.

So am I right in believing Hamilton > Seb?

Seb is doing his best to prove me right.


I don't know..... Sebastian and Ferrari are doing it again.. being their own enemy... I kind of get the feeling if Alonso or Michael was in that car.. they would be winning more.

I think the Ferrari package can still win the majority of the races. We are now at the point between Merc/Ferrari that the slightest issue can cost the win. The slightly wrong strategy, mistake, weather and even the safety car at the wrong time can be the difference between 1st and 2nd.

Still, it's good.. we can't sit there and say "Oh look, qualifies 1st and goes off in to the distance". I hope for the Championship sake that Vettel realises that not every move will define the race victory and sometimes.. you just have to accept being over taken.. Kimi showed it the first time with Lewis on how to defend not too hard and fight back. Shame for Kimi that the strategy wasn't perhaps perfect.

If Vettel does lose it again this year.. surely something must change at Ferrari. It would be two years where they've had a race winning car but team/driver mistakes have cost them... going through the mid pack quickly means nothing if you make mistakes at the front costing the win...

I want this to go down to the wire.


For Alonso, it was the team that let him down, particularly that one year when he was so close to winning it but a bad strategy call at Abu Dhabi cost him. The rest of the years were simply down to the car.

For Vettel, it's largely his own fault, especially this year. He's under contract so it's likely he'll continue but beyond that, short of a WDC, he's likely out of Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:25 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
FrusEldar wrote:
Bump.

So am I right in believing Hamilton > Seb?

Seb is doing his best to prove me right.

Honestly, I've never thought that there was even really a debate about this. The debate is between Hamilton and Alonso. For me, Vettel is clearly a half step behind those two when you look for the best drivers of the modern era. He proved it for the brief time Ricciardo was his teammate and if Leclerc is his teammate next season, I believe he will be exposed again.

Personally I think I've seen enough over the years to conclude that Hamilton and Vettel are about equal with Alonso a slight step above. Im interested to see who comes out on top in my rankings between Hamilton and Vettel when all is said and done, at the moment it looks like Hamilton.

If Leclerc did beat Vettel next year I'd be questioning whether Leclerc=Alonso. I doubt it would happen though, he's obviously a star of the future so as long as he can give Vettel a bit of a hard time he'd be doing well.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:29 pm 
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There are seven races to go. For every win by Sebastian there is a minimum clawback of seven points (more if Lewis doesn't finish second) against a 30 point deficit. It's a bit early to start the celebrations.

Last year over the course of the Singapore, Malaysian and Japanese Grands Prix, Lewis dropped Sebastian by 56 points and essentially decided the title. If luck and speed are on Vettel's side this year that could go the other way and the current 30 point lead will be a distant memory.

The next three races are Singapore, Russia, and Japan. Last year Lewis had a rough time in Sochi. Will Lewis come to terms with the track this year? This is not a given.

Ferrari was favored both in Singapore and Japan. The legendary turn 1 crash in Singapore and the "Spark Plug" disaster at Suzuka are not likely to be repeated.

Last year the title was decided in Lewis's favor by 46 points. Even if Lewis wins the title I don't see the margin being anywhere near that disparity.

P.S. While I am mostly a Hamilton fan I much more enjoy the fact that we have two all time greats going toe to toe for the honor of being the best of their generation. The last such rivalry was the Prost-Senna battles and they did not respect each other the way Lewis and Sebastian do.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:07 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
FrusEldar wrote:
Bump.

So am I right in believing Hamilton > Seb?

Seb is doing his best to prove me right.

Honestly, I've never thought that there was even really a debate about this. The debate is between Hamilton and Alonso. For me, Vettel is clearly a half step behind those two when you look for the best drivers of the modern era. He proved it for the brief time Ricciardo was his teammate and if Leclerc is his teammate next season, I believe he will be exposed again.


I think Hamilton's improved across 2011-2013 I felt Vettel was the better driver. Then it was very hard to compare Hamilton to anyone apart from Rosberg through 2014-16 so I had to assume they were still quite even.

I think Hamilton is now the best he's ever been. His risk/reward analysis in split second decisions is now superb, he's blinding fast, brilliant in the wet and great in quali. His only weakness is that he does sometimes go missing or have the wrong attitude when things don't quite go his way.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:29 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
FrusEldar wrote:
Bump.

So am I right in believing Hamilton > Seb?

Seb is doing his best to prove me right.

Honestly, I've never thought that there was even really a debate about this. The debate is between Hamilton and Alonso. For me, Vettel is clearly a half step behind those two when you look for the best drivers of the modern era. He proved it for the brief time Ricciardo was his teammate and if Leclerc is his teammate next season, I believe he will be exposed again.


I think Hamilton's improved across 2011-2013 I felt Vettel was the better driver. Then it was very hard to compare Hamilton to anyone apart from Rosberg through 2014-16 so I had to assume they were still quite even.

I think Hamilton is now the best he's ever been. His risk/reward analysis in split second decisions is now superb, he's blinding fast, brilliant in the wet and great in quali. His only weakness is that he does sometimes go missing or have the wrong attitude when things don't quite go his way.

I completely disagree with your first point. 2011 was certainly a bad year for Hamilton but Vettel's success in that window of time of 2011-2013 was down to being in a better team with a better car and a worse teammate. To this day, the only time Vettel has been benchmarked against a strong teammate was the year he was comprehensively out-performed by Ricciardo. Hamilton has beaten the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car without preferential treatment. As a driver I don't think Vettel is on that level nor do I think that he ever has been. For me, Vettel is a Nico Rosberg-level driver.

I'm not just looking at stats. If I was, Alonso wouldn't be in the conversation. It's about having the ability to handle pressure and to deal with different racing situations with confidence and precision. From Vettel, I see a guy who is quite strong when controlling the race out front most of the time but far less strong when thrust into a different situations that require split-second decisions and racecraft. Hamilton can handle pretty much any situation and can be aggressive while also maintaining control and avoiding disaster.

Alonso is on a similar level to Hamilton. For my money, Hamilton has Fernando beat in terms of raw pace and ability. Alonso probably has Hamilton beat in terms of strategic thinking on the fly and the mental side of the sport. The tie-breaker for me is that Lewis just seems to have a far more positive impact on the teams that he joins than Alonso does. For me, the best drivers currently are:

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Verstappen
4. Ricciardo
5. Vettel

I don't think Alonso has had the top spot for several years now (despite all of his campaigning for it).


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:00 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
FrusEldar wrote:
Bump.

So am I right in believing Hamilton > Seb?

Seb is doing his best to prove me right.

Honestly, I've never thought that there was even really a debate about this. The debate is between Hamilton and Alonso. For me, Vettel is clearly a half step behind those two when you look for the best drivers of the modern era. He proved it for the brief time Ricciardo was his teammate and if Leclerc is his teammate next season, I believe he will be exposed again.


I think Hamilton's improved across 2011-2013 I felt Vettel was the better driver. Then it was very hard to compare Hamilton to anyone apart from Rosberg through 2014-16 so I had to assume they were still quite even.

I think Hamilton is now the best he's ever been. His risk/reward analysis in split second decisions is now superb, he's blinding fast, brilliant in the wet and great in quali. His only weakness is that he does sometimes go missing or have the wrong attitude when things don't quite go his way.

I completely disagree with your first point. 2011 was certainly a bad year for Hamilton but Vettel's success in that window of time of 2011-2013 was down to being in a better team with a better car and a worse teammate. To this day, the only time Vettel has been benchmarked against a strong teammate was the year he was comprehensively out-performed by Ricciardo. Hamilton has beaten the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car without preferential treatment. As a driver I don't think Vettel is on that level nor do I think that he ever has been. For me, Vettel is a Nico Rosberg-level driver.

I'm not just looking at stats. If I was, Alonso wouldn't be in the conversation. It's about having the ability to handle pressure and to deal with different racing situations with confidence and precision. From Vettel, I see a guy who is quite strong when controlling the race out front most of the time but far less strong when thrust into a different situations that require split-second decisions and racecraft. Hamilton can handle pretty much any situation and can be aggressive while also maintaining control and avoiding disaster.

Alonso is on a similar level to Hamilton. For my money, Hamilton has Fernando beat in terms of raw pace and ability. Alonso probably has Hamilton beat in terms of strategic thinking on the fly and the mental side of the sport. The tie-breaker for me is that Lewis just seems to have a far more positive impact on the teams that he joins than Alonso does. For me, the best drivers currently are:

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Verstappen
4. Ricciardo
5. Vettel

I don't think Alonso has had the top spot for several years now (despite all of his campaigning for it).


I don't think Hamilton was as good as he is now from 2011-13. Vettel himself was superb in 2011. Put in a brilliant season.

Alonso
Hamilton
Ricciardo
Vettel
Verstappen

would be my current list. Verstappen would go easily to 3 if he was cleaner.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:05 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
FrusEldar wrote:
Bump.

So am I right in believing Hamilton > Seb?

Seb is doing his best to prove me right.

Honestly, I've never thought that there was even really a debate about this. The debate is between Hamilton and Alonso. For me, Vettel is clearly a half step behind those two when you look for the best drivers of the modern era. He proved it for the brief time Ricciardo was his teammate and if Leclerc is his teammate next season, I believe he will be exposed again.


I think Hamilton's improved across 2011-2013 I felt Vettel was the better driver. Then it was very hard to compare Hamilton to anyone apart from Rosberg through 2014-16 so I had to assume they were still quite even.

I think Hamilton is now the best he's ever been. His risk/reward analysis in split second decisions is now superb, he's blinding fast, brilliant in the wet and great in quali. His only weakness is that he does sometimes go missing or have the wrong attitude when things don't quite go his way.

I completely disagree with your first point. 2011 was certainly a bad year for Hamilton but Vettel's success in that window of time of 2011-2013 was down to being in a better team with a better car and a worse teammate. To this day, the only time Vettel has been benchmarked against a strong teammate was the year he was comprehensively out-performed by Ricciardo. Hamilton has beaten the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car without preferential treatment. As a driver I don't think Vettel is on that level nor do I think that he ever has been. For me, Vettel is a Nico Rosberg-level driver.

I'm not just looking at stats. If I was, Alonso wouldn't be in the conversation. It's about having the ability to handle pressure and to deal with different racing situations with confidence and precision. From Vettel, I see a guy who is quite strong when controlling the race out front most of the time but far less strong when thrust into a different situations that require split-second decisions and racecraft. Hamilton can handle pretty much any situation and can be aggressive while also maintaining control and avoiding disaster.

Alonso is on a similar level to Hamilton. For my money, Hamilton has Fernando beat in terms of raw pace and ability. Alonso probably has Hamilton beat in terms of strategic thinking on the fly and the mental side of the sport. The tie-breaker for me is that Lewis just seems to have a far more positive impact on the teams that he joins than Alonso does. For me, the best drivers currently are:

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Verstappen
4. Ricciardo
5. Vettel

I don't think Alonso has had the top spot for several years now (despite all of his campaigning for it).


I don't think Hamilton was as good as he is now from 2011-13. Vettel himself was superb in 2011. Put in a brilliant season.

Alonso
Hamilton
Ricciardo
Vettel
Verstappen

would be my current list. Verstappen would go easily to 3 if he was cleaner.

I think you're just giving Alonso a pass based on his performance from 5+ years ago but we can agree to disagree. Hamilton in 2012 was basically flawless and drove at as high of a level as you can ask for. 2013 was a transitional year but still he bested Rosberg on the season despite the fact that Rosberg was already well established within that team. I too think that 2011 was Vettel's strognest season overall but he was in the outright best car and his teammate had such a lopsided majority of the mechanical issues that it was basically the perfect set up.

You're also giving Daniel credit for the past as Max has clearly been better IMO. Daniel is not particularly clean either. He gets away with a lot of sloppy dive bombs...


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:26 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I think you're just giving Alonso a pass based on his performance from 5+ years ago but we can agree to disagree. Hamilton in 2012 was basically flawless and drove at as high of a level as you can ask for. 2013 was a transitional year but still he bested Rosberg on the season despite the fact that Rosberg was already well established within that team. I too think that 2011 was Vettel's strognest season overall but he was in the outright best car and his teammate had such a lopsided majority of the mechanical issues that it was basically the perfect set up.

You're also giving Daniel credit for the past as Max has clearly been better IMO. Daniel is not particularly clean either. He gets away with a lot of sloppy dive bombs...


He doesn't crash into people nearly as much as Max. Max is faster for sure and will end up the better driver but right now Dan is still the better all rounder IMO.

With the Alonso/Hamilton comparison we have to guess. No way to compare them directly. I think Alonso's still the better driver.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:32 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I think you're just giving Alonso a pass based on his performance from 5+ years ago but we can agree to disagree. Hamilton in 2012 was basically flawless and drove at as high of a level as you can ask for. 2013 was a transitional year but still he bested Rosberg on the season despite the fact that Rosberg was already well established within that team. I too think that 2011 was Vettel's strognest season overall but he was in the outright best car and his teammate had such a lopsided majority of the mechanical issues that it was basically the perfect set up.

You're also giving Daniel credit for the past as Max has clearly been better IMO. Daniel is not particularly clean either. He gets away with a lot of sloppy dive bombs...


He doesn't crash into people nearly as much as Max. Max is faster for sure and will end up the better driver but right now Dan is still the better all rounder IMO.

With the Alonso/Hamilton comparison we have to guess. No way to compare them directly. I think Alonso's still the better driver.

Actually that isn't true. Hamilton was teamed with Alonso in his first year and got the better of him. This as a complete rookie in F1. Of course it has become common for Alonso fans to try to write that off somehow but it DID happen.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:48 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I think you're just giving Alonso a pass based on his performance from 5+ years ago but we can agree to disagree. Hamilton in 2012 was basically flawless and drove at as high of a level as you can ask for. 2013 was a transitional year but still he bested Rosberg on the season despite the fact that Rosberg was already well established within that team. I too think that 2011 was Vettel's strognest season overall but he was in the outright best car and his teammate had such a lopsided majority of the mechanical issues that it was basically the perfect set up.

You're also giving Daniel credit for the past as Max has clearly been better IMO. Daniel is not particularly clean either. He gets away with a lot of sloppy dive bombs...


He doesn't crash into people nearly as much as Max. Max is faster for sure and will end up the better driver but right now Dan is still the better all rounder IMO.

With the Alonso/Hamilton comparison we have to guess. No way to compare them directly. I think Alonso's still the better driver.

Actually that isn't true. Hamilton was teamed with Alonso in his first year and got the better of him. This as a complete rookie in F1. Of course it has become common for Alonso fans to try to write that off somehow but it DID happen.


It happened and is very much in the equation but it was 11 years ago and only one season out of two very long careers. The 2007 season is not the start and end of the discussion IMO.

And I'm not an Alonso fan.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:02 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I think you're just giving Alonso a pass based on his performance from 5+ years ago but we can agree to disagree. Hamilton in 2012 was basically flawless and drove at as high of a level as you can ask for. 2013 was a transitional year but still he bested Rosberg on the season despite the fact that Rosberg was already well established within that team. I too think that 2011 was Vettel's strognest season overall but he was in the outright best car and his teammate had such a lopsided majority of the mechanical issues that it was basically the perfect set up.

You're also giving Daniel credit for the past as Max has clearly been better IMO. Daniel is not particularly clean either. He gets away with a lot of sloppy dive bombs...


He doesn't crash into people nearly as much as Max. Max is faster for sure and will end up the better driver but right now Dan is still the better all rounder IMO.

With the Alonso/Hamilton comparison we have to guess. No way to compare them directly. I think Alonso's still the better driver.

Actually that isn't true. Hamilton was teamed with Alonso in his first year and got the better of him. This as a complete rookie in F1. Of course it has become common for Alonso fans to try to write that off somehow but it DID happen.


There certainly were a lot of distracting things going on with the team in the "Spygate" scandal and the fracas regarding qualifying and "impeding" by Alonzo in Hungary. Still in 2007 Lewis lost the championship to Kimi Raikkonen by one point in Lewis's rookie season. He also tied Alonzo for second in points with 109 each. Each won four races, and Hamilton’s larger haul of second place finishes (six to four) put him ahead of Alonso in the final ranking.

In the end the rookie put it on the two time reigning champion Alonzo by a very narrow margin. That is hard to argue with.

It's been hard to compare them since as they have been in different teams and their stars have risen and fallen in sync with the quality of their rides at the time.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:26 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I think you're just giving Alonso a pass based on his performance from 5+ years ago but we can agree to disagree. Hamilton in 2012 was basically flawless and drove at as high of a level as you can ask for. 2013 was a transitional year but still he bested Rosberg on the season despite the fact that Rosberg was already well established within that team. I too think that 2011 was Vettel's strognest season overall but he was in the outright best car and his teammate had such a lopsided majority of the mechanical issues that it was basically the perfect set up.

You're also giving Daniel credit for the past as Max has clearly been better IMO. Daniel is not particularly clean either. He gets away with a lot of sloppy dive bombs...


He doesn't crash into people nearly as much as Max. Max is faster for sure and will end up the better driver but right now Dan is still the better all rounder IMO.

With the Alonso/Hamilton comparison we have to guess. No way to compare them directly. I think Alonso's still the better driver.

Actually that isn't true. Hamilton was teamed with Alonso in his first year and got the better of him. This as a complete rookie in F1. Of course it has become common for Alonso fans to try to write that off somehow but it DID happen.


It happened and is very much in the equation but it was 11 years ago and only one season out of two very long careers. The 2007 season is not the start and end of the discussion IMO.

And I'm not an Alonso fan.

Yes it was 11 years ago. It was also at a time when Alonso was MUCH further along in his development curve than Hamilton. The Alonso of 2007 was basically already the finished article. Hamilton was something of a late bloomer IMO. I'd say 2012 was the first year where Lewis was truly the finished article. If they were to team up again, I would expect Hamilton to have the upper hand again. That's not to say that Alonso couldn't get the better of him over a season. He certainly could but if they spent a long time together, I expect Hamilton would prove to be the better performer overall. I think Alonso has become the ultimate straw man for people who don't like Hamilton to be totally honest.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:26 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I completely disagree with your first point. 2011 was certainly a bad year for Hamilton but Vettel's success in that window of time of 2011-2013 was down to being in a better team with a better car and a worse teammate. To this day, the only time Vettel has been benchmarked against a strong teammate was the year he was comprehensively out-performed by Ricciardo. Hamilton has beaten the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car without preferential treatment. As a driver I don't think Vettel is on that level nor do I think that he ever has been. For me, Vettel is a Nico Rosberg-level driver.

Vettel was better driver than Hamilton from 2011-2013 for quite a few reasons:

1. He made less mistakes
2. He had less off-weekends
3. Hamilton lost regularly to his teammates while Vettel lost about 4 times to Webber in 3 years.

As for Vettel being on the same level as Rosberg. I rate Vettel higher than Rosberg for quite a few reasons:

1. He's better in the rain. Regardless of Vettel's crash in Germany, Vettel's overall records and achievements in the rain are significantly more impressive than Rosberg.
2. Better racecraft. Unlike Rosberg, Vettel doesn't have a mental block when racing Hamilton. Vettel has a significantly more impressive list of overtakes and comeback drives in his career than Rosberg.

It's impossible to know how Vettel compares to Rosberg or Hamilton speed-wise, as they have never been teammates, or even had a common teammate (apart from Webber, who beat Rosberg in his rookie season).


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:51 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I think you're just giving Alonso a pass based on his performance from 5+ years ago but we can agree to disagree. Hamilton in 2012 was basically flawless and drove at as high of a level as you can ask for. 2013 was a transitional year but still he bested Rosberg on the season despite the fact that Rosberg was already well established within that team. I too think that 2011 was Vettel's strognest season overall but he was in the outright best car and his teammate had such a lopsided majority of the mechanical issues that it was basically the perfect set up.

You're also giving Daniel credit for the past as Max has clearly been better IMO. Daniel is not particularly clean either. He gets away with a lot of sloppy dive bombs...


He doesn't crash into people nearly as much as Max. Max is faster for sure and will end up the better driver but right now Dan is still the better all rounder IMO.

With the Alonso/Hamilton comparison we have to guess. No way to compare them directly. I think Alonso's still the better driver.

Actually that isn't true. Hamilton was teamed with Alonso in his first year and got the better of him. This as a complete rookie in F1. Of course it has become common for Alonso fans to try to write that off somehow but it DID happen.


It happened and is very much in the equation but it was 11 years ago and only one season out of two very long careers. The 2007 season is not the start and end of the discussion IMO.

And I'm not an Alonso fan.

Yes it was 11 years ago. It was also at a time when Alonso was MUCH further along in his development curve than Hamilton. The Alonso of 2007 was basically already the finished article. Hamilton was something of a late bloomer IMO. I'd say 2012 was the first year where Lewis was truly the finished article. If they were to team up again, I would expect Hamilton to have the upper hand again. That's not to say that Alonso couldn't get the better of him over a season. He certainly could but if they spent a long time together, I expect Hamilton would prove to be the better performer overall. I think Alonso has become the ultimate straw man for people who don't like Hamilton to be totally honest.


You can't make conclusions based on a match up that happened so long ago and for such short a time. It's evidence for sure but far from conclusive. For the rest of the time whilst they ran together at the front Alonso looked the better driver IMO. Now that could've changed over the last few years but I see no reason to assume Alonso has got worse. I'm not denigrating Hamilton here. I consider both to be in the top 10 of all time.

I can't understand your strawman comment. A strawman argument is where you refute an argument your opponent has not made. I don't really see how that fits.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:54 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I completely disagree with your first point. 2011 was certainly a bad year for Hamilton but Vettel's success in that window of time of 2011-2013 was down to being in a better team with a better car and a worse teammate. To this day, the only time Vettel has been benchmarked against a strong teammate was the year he was comprehensively out-performed by Ricciardo. Hamilton has beaten the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car without preferential treatment. As a driver I don't think Vettel is on that level nor do I think that he ever has been. For me, Vettel is a Nico Rosberg-level driver.

Vettel was better driver than Hamilton from 2011-2013 for quite a few reasons:

1. He made less mistakes
2. He had less off-weekends
3. Hamilton lost regularly to his teammates while Vettel lost about 4 times to Webber in 3 years.

As for Vettel being on the same level as Rosberg. I rate Vettel higher than Rosberg for quite a few reasons:

1. He's better in the rain. Regardless of Vettel's crash in Germany, Vettel's overall records and achievements in the rain are significantly more impressive than Rosberg.
2. Better racecraft. Unlike Rosberg, Vettel doesn't have a mental block when racing Hamilton. Vettel has a significantly more impressive list of overtakes and comeback drives in his career than Rosberg.

It's impossible to know how Vettel compares to Rosberg or Hamilton speed-wise, as they have never been teammates, or even had a common teammate (apart from Webber, who beat Rosberg in his rookie season).

Pretty much completely disagree with you. In 2011 without doubt Vettel performed better than Hamilton but aside from that, I'd say Lewis was the better driver during that window of time. In 2012, Hamilton has essentially a perfect season without a single major error and was blindingly fast. He was just let down by the team and by reliability that year. In 2013, no one was beating the Red Bull so it was basically a moot point. Hamilton's teammates were stronger than Vettel's throughout and his team often shot him in the foot while Webber was aging past his prime, underperforming and the Red Bull team was razor sharp in terms of strategy and execution on Vettel's side.

I give Vettel plenty of credit for his success during that window of RBR dominance. You can't ask for more than what he delivered during those 4 years. What he acheived is important and it should be respected and applauded. I just think you have to take into account the things we've seen both before and since then.

The part bolded is something a strongly disagree with. I think I've seen enough to know that Vettel isn't quite on par with Hamilton and, for me, Rosberg's level of performance is about where I'd peg Seb. You accuse Rosberg of having a mental block when racing Hamilton but ignore the sheer volume of mistakes we've seen from Seb these last two years while racing Hamilton (made one just yesterday in fact). With the piling list of errors from lapses in judgement and/or spatial awareness, I'm not sure how you can tout Vettel's racecraft the way you have here. Rosberg made fewer mistakes than Vetel when driving up front IMO. Vettel does make more highlight moves but overall I'd say that they are about even.

Anyway, I suspect the whole Vettel thing will be put to bed within a year or two when he finally has to face someone strong as a teammate again. Those are the most important tests of a racing driver IMO and Vettel has a paltry track record in this regard.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:01 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I completely disagree with your first point. 2011 was certainly a bad year for Hamilton but Vettel's success in that window of time of 2011-2013 was down to being in a better team with a better car and a worse teammate. To this day, the only time Vettel has been benchmarked against a strong teammate was the year he was comprehensively out-performed by Ricciardo. Hamilton has beaten the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car without preferential treatment. As a driver I don't think Vettel is on that level nor do I think that he ever has been. For me, Vettel is a Nico Rosberg-level driver.

Vettel was better driver than Hamilton from 2011-2013 for quite a few reasons:

1. He made less mistakes
2. He had less off-weekends
3. Hamilton lost regularly to his teammates while Vettel lost about 4 times to Webber in 3 years.

As for Vettel being on the same level as Rosberg. I rate Vettel higher than Rosberg for quite a few reasons:

1. He's better in the rain. Regardless of Vettel's crash in Germany, Vettel's overall records and achievements in the rain are significantly more impressive than Rosberg.
2. Better racecraft. Unlike Rosberg, Vettel doesn't have a mental block when racing Hamilton. Vettel has a significantly more impressive list of overtakes and comeback drives in his career than Rosberg.

It's impossible to know how Vettel compares to Rosberg or Hamilton speed-wise, as they have never been teammates, or even had a common teammate (apart from Webber, who beat Rosberg in his rookie season).

Pretty much completely disagree with you. In 2011 without doubt Vettel performed better than Hamilton but aside from that, I'd say Lewis was the better driver during that window of time. In 2012, Hamilton has essentially a perfect season without a single major error and was blindingly fast. He was just let down by the team and by reliability that year. In 2013, no one was beating the Red Bull so it was basically a moot point. Hamilton's teammates were stronger than Vettel's throughout and his team often shot him in the foot while Webber was aging past his prime, underperforming and the Red Bull team was razor sharp in terms of strategy and execution on Vettel's side.

I give Vettel plenty of credit for his success during that window of RBR dominance. You can't ask for more than what he delivered during those 4 years. What he acheived is important and it should be respected and applauded. I just think you have to take into account the things we've seen both before and since then.

The part bolded is something a strongly disagree with. I think I've seen enough to know that Vettel isn't quite on par with Hamilton and, for me, Rosberg's level of performance is about where I'd peg Seb. You accuse Rosberg of having a mental block when racing Hamilton but ignore the sheer volume of mistakes we've seen from Seb these last two years while racing Hamilton (made one just yesterday in fact). With the piling list of errors from lapses in judgement and/or spatial awareness, I'm not sure how you can tout Vettel's racecraft the way you have here. Rosberg made fewer mistakes than Vetel when driving up front IMO. Vettel does make more highlight moves but overall I'd say that they are about even.

Anyway, I suspect the whole Vettel thing will be put to bed within a year or two when he finally has to face someone strong as a teammate again. Those are the most important tests of a racing driver IMO and Vettel has a paltry track record in this regard.


Could you elaborate further on seeing Rosberg's and Vettel's level of performance as equivalent? Is Rosberg as good as Vettel?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:16 pm 
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It has always been Alonso for me... but only just. It's the relentless race pace and the fact he never has an off day. But while I say that, Hamilton has been getting even better as he has aged. 2017 was his best title win for me. And this year I think he's going even better. This year is similar to the stuff Schumacher and Alonso became legends for - taking it to other top drivers in faster cars

Seb's not in the conversation as far as I'm concerned. He's being exposed this year and not for the first time. 30 points behind when he should be 30 points ahead. Can't help but feel Hamilton or Alonso would be walking to the title in that car. And Ricciardo

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:33 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
It has always been Alonso for me... but only just. It's the relentless race pace and the fact he never has an off day. But while I say that, Hamilton has been getting even better as he has aged. 2017 was his best title win for me. And this year I think he's going even better. This year is similar to the stuff Schumacher and Alonso became legends for - taking it to other top drivers in faster cars

Seb's not in the conversation as far as I'm concerned. He's being exposed this year and not for the first time. 30 points behind when he should be 30 points ahead. Can't help but feel Hamilton or Alonso would be walking to the title in that car. And Ricciardo

I'd agree totally. I've always considered Alonso to be the better driver, although he seems to have lost interest and motivation nowadays, and I don't think Hamilton will ever match the relentless consistency that Alonso had at his peak. However Hamilton hasn't had the outright best car for 18 months now but still he keeps coming out on top; if he does win the title this season then it won't be far off matching what Alonso did in 2012 in my opinion.

I still see Vettel taking the title this year though. The Ferrari looks to be the best car, they're all on their final engines with no more upgrades possible without a grid penalty, the points gap isn't that big and there are plenty of races left, including Mercedes' traditional bogey track in Singapore and two tracks that Hamilton has a very patchy record at in Sochi and Interlagos.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:43 pm 
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Just a little reminder in '12 at this point Alonso had a 44pt lead after Vettel had an alternator failure at Monza.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:56 pm 
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Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I completely disagree with your first point. 2011 was certainly a bad year for Hamilton but Vettel's success in that window of time of 2011-2013 was down to being in a better team with a better car and a worse teammate. To this day, the only time Vettel has been benchmarked against a strong teammate was the year he was comprehensively out-performed by Ricciardo. Hamilton has beaten the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car without preferential treatment. As a driver I don't think Vettel is on that level nor do I think that he ever has been. For me, Vettel is a Nico Rosberg-level driver.

Vettel was better driver than Hamilton from 2011-2013 for quite a few reasons:

1. He made less mistakes
2. He had less off-weekends
3. Hamilton lost regularly to his teammates while Vettel lost about 4 times to Webber in 3 years.

As for Vettel being on the same level as Rosberg. I rate Vettel higher than Rosberg for quite a few reasons:

1. He's better in the rain. Regardless of Vettel's crash in Germany, Vettel's overall records and achievements in the rain are significantly more impressive than Rosberg.
2. Better racecraft. Unlike Rosberg, Vettel doesn't have a mental block when racing Hamilton. Vettel has a significantly more impressive list of overtakes and comeback drives in his career than Rosberg.

It's impossible to know how Vettel compares to Rosberg or Hamilton speed-wise, as they have never been teammates, or even had a common teammate (apart from Webber, who beat Rosberg in his rookie season).

Pretty much completely disagree with you. In 2011 without doubt Vettel performed better than Hamilton but aside from that, I'd say Lewis was the better driver during that window of time. In 2012, Hamilton has essentially a perfect season without a single major error and was blindingly fast. He was just let down by the team and by reliability that year. In 2013, no one was beating the Red Bull so it was basically a moot point. Hamilton's teammates were stronger than Vettel's throughout and his team often shot him in the foot while Webber was aging past his prime, underperforming and the Red Bull team was razor sharp in terms of strategy and execution on Vettel's side.

I give Vettel plenty of credit for his success during that window of RBR dominance. You can't ask for more than what he delivered during those 4 years. What he acheived is important and it should be respected and applauded. I just think you have to take into account the things we've seen both before and since then.

The part bolded is something a strongly disagree with. I think I've seen enough to know that Vettel isn't quite on par with Hamilton and, for me, Rosberg's level of performance is about where I'd peg Seb. You accuse Rosberg of having a mental block when racing Hamilton but ignore the sheer volume of mistakes we've seen from Seb these last two years while racing Hamilton (made one just yesterday in fact). With the piling list of errors from lapses in judgement and/or spatial awareness, I'm not sure how you can tout Vettel's racecraft the way you have here. Rosberg made fewer mistakes than Vetel when driving up front IMO. Vettel does make more highlight moves but overall I'd say that they are about even.

Anyway, I suspect the whole Vettel thing will be put to bed within a year or two when he finally has to face someone strong as a teammate again. Those are the most important tests of a racing driver IMO and Vettel has a paltry track record in this regard.


Could you elaborate further on seeing Rosberg's and Vettel's level of performance as equivalent? Is Rosberg as good as Vettel?

In my opinion, yes Rosberg and Vettel are about even in terms of overall ability/performance.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:06 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Actually that isn't true. Hamilton was teamed with Alonso in his first year and got the better of him. This as a complete rookie in F1. Of course it has become common for Alonso fans to try to write that off somehow but it DID happen.


It happened and is very much in the equation but it was 11 years ago and only one season out of two very long careers. The 2007 season is not the start and end of the discussion IMO.

And I'm not an Alonso fan.

Yes it was 11 years ago. It was also at a time when Alonso was MUCH further along in his development curve than Hamilton. The Alonso of 2007 was basically already the finished article. Hamilton was something of a late bloomer IMO. I'd say 2012 was the first year where Lewis was truly the finished article. If they were to team up again, I would expect Hamilton to have the upper hand again. That's not to say that Alonso couldn't get the better of him over a season. He certainly could but if they spent a long time together, I expect Hamilton would prove to be the better performer overall. I think Alonso has become the ultimate straw man for people who don't like Hamilton to be totally honest.


You can't make conclusions based on a match up that happened so long ago and for such short a time. It's evidence for sure but far from conclusive. For the rest of the time whilst they ran together at the front Alonso looked the better driver IMO. Now that could've changed over the last few years but I see no reason to assume Alonso has got worse. I'm not denigrating Hamilton here. I consider both to be in the top 10 of all time.

I can't understand your strawman comment. A strawman argument is where you refute an argument your opponent has not made. I don't really see how that fits.

You're welcome to your opinion but I'd say that those years (I'm assuming you are referring mostly to the period from 2010-2013) were years where Hamilton and Alonso were in completely different situations. Alonso had the full support of Ferrari and had firm #1 status. This meant that Massa's will was broken and Alonso always had the pick of strategy, parts, etc. Felipe himself has commented on how Alonso basically makes the team all about him. Hamilton, on the other hand, had another WDC driver as a teammate and a team that was determined to provide 100% equal status. This meant a LOT of compromises in terms of strategy and an adherence to rules of engagement. I don't think you can make a simple comparison without understanding the implications of that. Ferrari maximized Alonso's chances while Mclaren often shot Hamilton in the foot.

I would say that, overall Hamilton performed better than Alonso in 2010 and equal to him in 2012. I think Alonso was better in both 2011 and 2013, so overall, I would give Alonso the edge in performance during that window of time but not by much and that is in the past now anyway. That's more than 5 years ago and since then, Alonso has been largely irrelevant while Hamilton has been dominant. In what sport do you ignore a dominant performer and give the nod to a guy who is not winning? Would Alonso be able to do what Hamilton is doing right now if he were in the Mercedes? I don't know and neither does anyone else but you give more weight to actual achievements than to theoretical ones IMO. Hamilton has firmly had the top spot for several years now IMO.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:09 pm 
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j man wrote:
mcdo wrote:
It has always been Alonso for me... but only just. It's the relentless race pace and the fact he never has an off day. But while I say that, Hamilton has been getting even better as he has aged. 2017 was his best title win for me. And this year I think he's going even better. This year is similar to the stuff Schumacher and Alonso became legends for - taking it to other top drivers in faster cars

Seb's not in the conversation as far as I'm concerned. He's being exposed this year and not for the first time. 30 points behind when he should be 30 points ahead. Can't help but feel Hamilton or Alonso would be walking to the title in that car. And Ricciardo

I'd agree totally. I've always considered Alonso to be the better driver, although he seems to have lost interest and motivation nowadays, and I don't think Hamilton will ever match the relentless consistency that Alonso had at his peak. However Hamilton hasn't had the outright best car for 18 months now but still he keeps coming out on top; if he does win the title this season then it won't be far off matching what Alonso did in 2012 in my opinion.

I still see Vettel taking the title this year though. The Ferrari looks to be the best car, they're all on their final engines with no more upgrades possible without a grid penalty, the points gap isn't that big and there are plenty of races left, including Mercedes' traditional bogey track in Singapore and two tracks that Hamilton has a very patchy record at in Sochi and Interlagos.

I marvel at this thought process. Alonso did NOT actually win the title that year. So for you, Hamilton pulling off the WDC in the slower car only comes close to matching Alonso NOT pulling off the WDC in the slower car?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:20 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Pretty much completely disagree with you. In 2011 without doubt Vettel performed better than Hamilton but aside from that, I'd say Lewis was the better driver during that window of time. In 2012, Hamilton has essentially a perfect season without a single major error and was blindingly fast. He was just let down by the team and by reliability that year. In 2013, no one was beating the Red Bull so it was basically a moot point. Hamilton's teammates were stronger than Vettel's throughout and his team often shot him in the foot while Webber was aging past his prime, underperforming and the Red Bull team was razor sharp in terms of strategy and execution on Vettel's side.

Vettel performed better than Hamilton in 2013, and that is not a moot point just because Red Bull was better than Mercedes. Mercedes had a dominant car in 2014, but that doesn't change the fact that Hamilton performed better than Vettel that season.

Vettel basically made zero mistakes in 2013 and had no off-weekends. He was relentless that season. Hamilton had quite a few off weekends in 2013, the most notable one being in Spain, where he finished 50 seconds behind Rosberg on pace.

Quote:
The part bolded is something a strongly disagree with. I think I've seen enough to know that Vettel isn't quite on par with Hamilton and, for me, Rosberg's level of performance is about where I'd peg Seb. You accuse Rosberg of having a mental block when racing Hamilton but ignore the sheer volume of mistakes we've seen from Seb these last two years while racing Hamilton (made one just yesterday in fact).

Most of Vettel's mistakes have nothing to do with Hamilton, yesterday in Monza was the first one where Hamilton was actually involved in. Vettel has overtaken Hamilton on track this season in Austria in Belgium. In Austria, he made a fantastic overtake on tyres 10 laps older. Rosberg would have likely crashed if he tried to make that overtake happen.

Quote:
With the piling list of errors from lapses in judgement and/or spatial awareness, I'm not sure how you can tout Vettel's racecraft the way you have here. Rosberg made fewer mistakes than Vetel when driving up front IMO. Vettel does make more highlight moves but overall I'd say that they are about even.

Rosberg made the same mistake twice from the lead at Monza 2014, messed up at Russia 2014 when he was about to take the lead, and messed up at USA 2015. He also crashed at Austria 2016. Vettel is overall not more mistake prone than Rosberg. Vettel is definitely a better overtaker than Rosberg, and also a better defender than Rosberg IMO. Vettel is less likely to crack under pressure from the lead. That's why I consider Vettel's racecraft better.

Quote:
Anyway, I suspect the whole Vettel thing will be put to bed within a year or two when he finally has to face someone strong as a teammate again. Those are the most important tests of a racing driver IMO and Vettel has a paltry track record in this regard.

Leclerc vs Vettel will be interesting. A lot of revisionism happened with Webber after he became teammates with Vettel. Webber was regarded as a very good driver in 2008. If Vettel beats Leclerc, I expect similar revisionism to occur. Leclerc will go from a "top talent" to a "journeyman" rather quickly.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:34 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
FrusEldar wrote:
Bump.

So am I right in believing Hamilton > Seb?

Seb is doing his best to prove me right.

Honestly, I've never thought that there was even really a debate about this. The debate is between Hamilton and Alonso. For me, Vettel is clearly a half step behind those two when you look for the best drivers of the modern era. He proved it for the brief time Ricciardo was his teammate and if Leclerc is his teammate next season, I believe he will be exposed again.
4

I think Hamilton's improved across 2011-2013 I felt Vettel was the better driver. Then it was very hard to compare Hamilton to anyone apart from Rosberg through 2014-16 so I had to assume they were still quite even.

I think Hamilton is now the best he's ever been. His risk/reward analysis in split second decisions is now superb, he's blinding fast, brilliant in the wet and great in quali. His only weakness is that he does sometimes go missing or have the wrong attitude when things don't quite go his way.

I completely disagree with your first point. 2011 was certainly a bad year for Hamilton but Vettel's success in that window of time of 2011-2013 was down to being in a better team with a better car and a worse teammate. To this day, the only time Vettel has been benchmarked against a strong teammate was the year he was comprehensively out-performed by Ricciardo. Hamilton has beaten the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car without preferential treatment. As a driver I don't think Vettel is on that level nor do I think that he ever has been. For me, Vettel is a Nico Rosberg-level driver.

I'm not just looking at stats. If I was, Alonso wouldn't be in the conversation. It's about having the ability to handle pressure and to deal with different racing situations with confidence and precision. From Vettel, I see a guy who is quite strong when controlling the race out front most of the time but far less strong when thrust into a different situations that require split-second decisions and racecraft. Hamilton can handle pretty much any situation and can be aggressive while also maintaining control and avoiding disaster.

Alonso is on a similar level to Hamilton. For my money, Hamilton has Fernando beat in terms of raw pace and ability. Alonso probably has Hamilton beat in terms of strategic thinking on the fly and the mental side of the sport. The tie-breaker for me is that Lewis just seems to have a far more positive impact on the teams that he joins than Alonso does. For me, the best drivers currently are:

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Verstappen
4. Ricciardo
5. Vettel

I don't think Alonso has had the top spot for several years now (despite all of his campaigning for it).


:thumbup:

I agree with your top 5 ranking.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:39 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Just a little reminder in '12 at this point Alonso had a 44pt lead after Vettel had an alternator failure at Monza.


I agree, the championship is still wide open. If Ferrari continues to be the superiour car, Vettel can surely make not that much more mistakes to lose the wdc, can he?

On the other hand, Mercedes looks to be closer to Ferrari than Ferrari was to Red Bull back then.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:39 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
FrusEldar wrote:
Bump.

So am I right in believing Hamilton > Seb?

Seb is doing his best to prove me right.

Honestly, I've never thought that there was even really a debate about this. The debate is between Hamilton and Alonso. For me, Vettel is clearly a half step behind those two when you look for the best drivers of the modern era. He proved it for the brief time Ricciardo was his teammate and if Leclerc is his teammate next season, I believe he will be exposed again.


I think Hamilton's improved across 2011-2013 I felt Vettel was the better driver. Then it was very hard to compare Hamilton to anyone apart from Rosberg through 2014-16 so I had to assume they were still quite even.

I think Hamilton is now the best he's ever been. His risk/reward analysis in split second decisions is now superb, he's blinding fast, brilliant in the wet and great in quali. His only weakness is that he does sometimes go missing or have the wrong attitude when things don't quite go his way.

I completely disagree with your first point. 2011 was certainly a bad year for Hamilton but Vettel's success in that window of time of 2011-2013 was down to being in a better team with a better car and a worse teammate. To this day, the only time Vettel has been benchmarked against a strong teammate was the year he was comprehensively out-performed by Ricciardo. Hamilton has beaten the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car without preferential treatment. As a driver I don't think Vettel is on that level nor do I think that he ever has been. For me, Vettel is a Nico Rosberg-level driver.

I'm not just looking at stats. If I was, Alonso wouldn't be in the conversation. It's about having the ability to handle pressure and to deal with different racing situations with confidence and precision. From Vettel, I see a guy who is quite strong when controlling the race out front most of the time but far less strong when thrust into a different situations that require split-second decisions and racecraft. Hamilton can handle pretty much any situation and can be aggressive while also maintaining control and avoiding disaster.

Alonso is on a similar level to Hamilton. For my money, Hamilton has Fernando beat in terms of raw pace and ability. Alonso probably has Hamilton beat in terms of strategic thinking on the fly and the mental side of the sport. The tie-breaker for me is that Lewis just seems to have a far more positive impact on the teams that he joins than Alonso does. For me, the best drivers currently are:

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Verstappen
4. Ricciardo
5. Vettel

I don't think Alonso has had the top spot for several years now (despite all of his campaigning for it).


We have a winner here..
Yesterday Massa was interviewed by the Italian TV about the differences between Alonso and Schumacher and he alluded to something similar.

I am 100% sure Mercedes will not be the team it is today if Hamilton was not there. The grid is chock full of negative people with very bad Karma. Alonso? Verstappen? Ricciardo?
The only other guy with positive energy/influence as Lewis is Kimi(after yesterday race, here in Italy they want Leclerc in Ferrari but to replace Vettel LOL).

With Hamilton we are witnessing greatness and it was apparent from his very first race and there is no driver on the current grid or may be history who could have done what He did in his first year.
Toto and Dr Zetsche are on a mission, to help Hamilton hold all the records with the Brand Mercedes, just like Schumacher did with Ferrari. They understand Business.

People are crucifying Vettel and are sure Alonso would have done better.. but they seem to forget than Alonso's 2010 season as a Ferrari driver was also full of mistakes.


Last edited by Pullrod on Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:42 pm 
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^^^KingVoid

The point you make about Leclerc is an interesting one. I find myself in agreement with that point. If Vettel beats Leclerc, people will say that it's because Leclerc wasn't as good as advertised. If he loses, it will absolutely demolish Vettel's reputation. It's not an ideal situation for Sebastian and it's easy to see why he was so keen to keep Kimi as his teammate.

The point about Webber is one I do not agree with at all. Webber was seen as a Jarno Trulli/Giancarlo Fisichella-level driver before the Red Bull came good. He was never seen as a top driver (although he was seen as a single lap specialist).

As for what you said regarding Rosberg; Vettel has made more substantial errors during these last 2 title battles than Rosberg made during his two main title battles (2014 and 2016). And Vettel has looked like Schuamcher these last two years by comparison to the massive list of errors from his first two title challenges in 2009 and 2010. I find it dubious to accuse Rosberg of cracking under pressure when Vettel has recently had moments like the one in Germany this year while leading as well as Baku while challenging for the lead. We don't have to agree but I think Vettel is more on the level of guys like Button and Rosberg overall than he is on the level of people like Hamilton and Alonso. The big difference is that Sebastian has made an art form of being in the right place at the right time.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:11 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
We don't have to agree but I think Vettel is more on the level of guys like Button and Rosberg overall than he is on the level of people like Hamilton and Alonso. The big difference is that Sebastian has made an art form of being in the right place at the right time.

Vettel is at the very least better than Button in qualifying. Button was outqualified 53% of the time against Barrichello over four years. He was also 50/50 against Perez and a rookie Magnussen in qualifying. Jenson was pretty average over one lap. His biggest strength was race day.

To me, Vettel combines the best traits of both Button and Rosberg. I would say he's Rosberg on Saturday and Button on Sunday.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:18 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
We don't have to agree but I think Vettel is more on the level of guys like Button and Rosberg overall than he is on the level of people like Hamilton and Alonso. The big difference is that Sebastian has made an art form of being in the right place at the right time.

Vettel is at the very least better than Button in qualifying. Button was outqualified 53% of the time against Barrichello over four years. He was also 50/50 against Perez and a rookie Magnussen in qualifying. Jenson was pretty average over one lap. His biggest strength was race day.

To me, Vettel combines the best traits of both Button and Rosberg. I would say he's Rosberg on Saturday and Button on Sunday.

For me; I'd say he is about even with Rosberg on Saturday but not on par with Jenson on Sunday. He makes too many errors for me to put him level with Jenson on Sundays. I do agree that he's easily a better qualifier than Jenson though. The big difference between Vettel and Rosberg on Sundays is that Rosberg usually stays within himself while Vettel sometimes tries to do too much. It means that Vettel has more spectacular moments but also more mistakes.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:23 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
FrusEldar wrote:
Bump.

So am I right in believing Hamilton > Seb?

Seb is doing his best to prove me right.

Honestly, I've never thought that there was even really a debate about this. The debate is between Hamilton and Alonso. For me, Vettel is clearly a half step behind those two when you look for the best drivers of the modern era. He proved it for the brief time Ricciardo was his teammate and if Leclerc is his teammate next season, I believe he will be exposed again.


I think Hamilton's improved across 2011-2013 I felt Vettel was the better driver. Then it was very hard to compare Hamilton to anyone apart from Rosberg through 2014-16 so I had to assume they were still quite even.

I think Hamilton is now the best he's ever been. His risk/reward analysis in split second decisions is now superb, he's blinding fast, brilliant in the wet and great in quali. His only weakness is that he does sometimes go missing or have the wrong attitude when things don't quite go his way.

I completely disagree with your first point. 2011 was certainly a bad year for Hamilton but Vettel's success in that window of time of 2011-2013 was down to being in a better team with a better car and a worse teammate. To this day, the only time Vettel has been benchmarked against a strong teammate was the year he was comprehensively out-performed by Ricciardo. Hamilton has beaten the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg in the same car without preferential treatment. As a driver I don't think Vettel is on that level nor do I think that he ever has been. For me, Vettel is a Nico Rosberg-level driver.

I'm not just looking at stats. If I was, Alonso wouldn't be in the conversation. It's about having the ability to handle pressure and to deal with different racing situations with confidence and precision. From Vettel, I see a guy who is quite strong when controlling the race out front most of the time but far less strong when thrust into a different situations that require split-second decisions and racecraft. Hamilton can handle pretty much any situation and can be aggressive while also maintaining control and avoiding disaster.

Alonso is on a similar level to Hamilton. For my money, Hamilton has Fernando beat in terms of raw pace and ability. Alonso probably has Hamilton beat in terms of strategic thinking on the fly and the mental side of the sport. The tie-breaker for me is that Lewis just seems to have a far more positive impact on the teams that he joins than Alonso does. For me, the best drivers currently are:

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Verstappen
4. Ricciardo
5. Vettel

I don't think Alonso has had the top spot for several years now (despite all of his campaigning for it).


We have a winner here..
Yesterday Massa was interviewed by the Italian TV about the differences between Alonso and Schumacher and he alluded to something similar.

I am 100% sure Mercedes will not be the team it is today if Hamilton was not there. The grid is chock full of negative people with very bad Karma. Alonso? Verstappen? Ricciardo?
The only other guy with positive energy/influence as Lewis is Kimi(after yesterday race, here in Italy they want Leclerc in Ferrari but to replace Vettel LOL).

With Hamilton we are witnessing greatness and it was apparent from his very first race and there is no driver on the current grid or may be history who could have done what He did in his first year.
Toto and Dr Zetsche are on a mission, to help Hamilton hold all the records with the Brand Mercedes, just like Schumacher did with Ferrari. They understand Business.

People are crucifying Vettel and are sure Alonso would have done better.. but they seem to forget than Alonso's 2010 season as a Ferrari driver was also full of mistakes.


Hamilton is winning so of course he will channel positive energy. Do note when he was losing to Rosberg, the energy was very very negative. In fact, Rosberg handled things better in defeat.

As for Hamilton's greatness, name me a driver who had a top car in their first year? So while it's great, almost all the great drivers can do it in their first year given a top car.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:02 am 
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I'm calling it too, Lewis has been the better driver this season.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:26 am 
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Covalent wrote:
I'm calling it too, Lewis has been the better driver this season.

Pretty much. But Ferrari still has the car to win, so I don't think it's over yet.

And frankly, the fact that it's not over yet is pretty much proof that Seb is throwing this championship away.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:02 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
j man wrote:
mcdo wrote:
It has always been Alonso for me... but only just. It's the relentless race pace and the fact he never has an off day. But while I say that, Hamilton has been getting even better as he has aged. 2017 was his best title win for me. And this year I think he's going even better. This year is similar to the stuff Schumacher and Alonso became legends for - taking it to other top drivers in faster cars

Seb's not in the conversation as far as I'm concerned. He's being exposed this year and not for the first time. 30 points behind when he should be 30 points ahead. Can't help but feel Hamilton or Alonso would be walking to the title in that car. And Ricciardo

I'd agree totally. I've always considered Alonso to be the better driver, although he seems to have lost interest and motivation nowadays, and I don't think Hamilton will ever match the relentless consistency that Alonso had at his peak. However Hamilton hasn't had the outright best car for 18 months now but still he keeps coming out on top; if he does win the title this season then it won't be far off matching what Alonso did in 2012 in my opinion.

I still see Vettel taking the title this year though. The Ferrari looks to be the best car, they're all on their final engines with no more upgrades possible without a grid penalty, the points gap isn't that big and there are plenty of races left, including Mercedes' traditional bogey track in Singapore and two tracks that Hamilton has a very patchy record at in Sochi and Interlagos.

I marvel at this thought process. Alonso did NOT actually win the title that year. So for you, Hamilton pulling off the WDC in the slower car only comes close to matching Alonso NOT pulling off the WDC in the slower car?


There's different levels of "slower car" though isn't there? Alonso had the 4th fastest car that could also be threatened by Saubers and Williams. Hamilton has a car that's a shade slower than the fastest that can sometimes be challenged by the Red Bull but has no other competition.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:39 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
j man wrote:
mcdo wrote:
It has always been Alonso for me... but only just. It's the relentless race pace and the fact he never has an off day. But while I say that, Hamilton has been getting even better as he has aged. 2017 was his best title win for me. And this year I think he's going even better. This year is similar to the stuff Schumacher and Alonso became legends for - taking it to other top drivers in faster cars

Seb's not in the conversation as far as I'm concerned. He's being exposed this year and not for the first time. 30 points behind when he should be 30 points ahead. Can't help but feel Hamilton or Alonso would be walking to the title in that car. And Ricciardo

I'd agree totally. I've always considered Alonso to be the better driver, although he seems to have lost interest and motivation nowadays, and I don't think Hamilton will ever match the relentless consistency that Alonso had at his peak. However Hamilton hasn't had the outright best car for 18 months now but still he keeps coming out on top; if he does win the title this season then it won't be far off matching what Alonso did in 2012 in my opinion.

I still see Vettel taking the title this year though. The Ferrari looks to be the best car, they're all on their final engines with no more upgrades possible without a grid penalty, the points gap isn't that big and there are plenty of races left, including Mercedes' traditional bogey track in Singapore and two tracks that Hamilton has a very patchy record at in Sochi and Interlagos.

I marvel at this thought process. Alonso did NOT actually win the title that year. So for you, Hamilton pulling off the WDC in the slower car only comes close to matching Alonso NOT pulling off the WDC in the slower car?


There's different levels of "slower car" though isn't there? Alonso had the 4th fastest car that could also be threatened by Saubers and Williams. Hamilton has a car that's a shade slower than the fastest that can sometimes be challenged by the Red Bull but has no other competition.


That's obviously false.
What is a fact though is:
- Alonso had the most reliable car
- Alonso had the best team in terms of operations(at the pit)
- Alonso had a subservient teammate unlike his rivals.

You sum all of this and the "4th fastest" car thing is rubbish.


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