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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:10 am 
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Well, I don't really have a problem with the apology, drivers to the same from time to time when they underperform.
What I question more is things like "what the hell was that".

You have to wonder how Hamilton would react if his engineer would have asked him after Canada qualifying: "what the hell was that Lewis"?
Not to mention what would happen to/on this forum :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:09 am 
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mds wrote:
Well, I don't really have a problem with the apology, drivers to the same from time to time when they underperform.
What I question more is things like "what the hell was that".

You have to wonder how Hamilton would react if his engineer would have asked him after Canada qualifying: "what the hell was that Lewis"?
Not to mention what would happen to/on this forum :)


What the hell was what? That he was .1 slower than Bottas?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:28 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
mds wrote:
Well, I don't really have a problem with the apology, drivers to the same from time to time when they underperform.
What I question more is things like "what the hell was that".

You have to wonder how Hamilton would react if his engineer would have asked him after Canada qualifying: "what the hell was that Lewis"?
Not to mention what would happen to/on this forum :)


What the hell was what? That he was .1 slower than Bottas?


Because he did a fine job in qualifying in Canada and certainly wasn't outqualified by a driver/car that shouldn't have done so.

:nod:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:11 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Amateur hour by Mercedes and not the first time this year that would be the third time, so a driver should accept repeated incompetence from the race strategist?

I called it there and then that Mercedes have just lost Hamilton the race, this is quite basic stuff that Mercedes keep getting wrong, anyone can make a mistake but this is not the first time this season and not let's make it as soon as anything goes wrong Hamilton gets stroppy, it's a repeated problem which highlights a Mercedes weakness, any driver would start to question procedures that keep going wrong.


It really was an amateur strategy mistake. Brundle's column today indicates that the entire pit lane was in astonishment because it was such a no-brainer to pit when the VSC came out, regardless of the end result. I make this the 4th strategy error this year, costing a win for either Bottas or Hamilton in each case*. That is called a trend. Mercedes need to seriously ask themselves if their single chief strategist mindset is really the best way to go. Problems are generated when 1 person has to think twice as fast for 2 cars, and things get complicated when you try to run the best strategy for BOTH cars (to keep everyone sweet) instead of the best strategy for any car to win. Works fine when you have a massive pace advantage, but when things are tight you get exposed.

*
1. Australia VSC - too much time/reliance on looking at computer timing screens instead of using racing gut and a stopwatch.
2. Bahrain - Cruising and assuming that Ferrari would stop again, and then not giving Hamilton optimum strategy because it would mean he would have jumped Bottas.
3. China - Not pitting Hamilton for tyres under safety car/VSC leaving him badly exposed to the Red Bulls - This was again because of the aforementioned 'data' that told them staying out was best thing to do even though anyone with a racing brain knew pitting was better.
4. Austria VSC


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:18 am 
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mds wrote:
Well, I don't really have a problem with the apology, drivers to the same from time to time when they underperform.
What I question more is things like "what the hell was that".

You have to wonder how Hamilton would react if his engineer would have asked him after Canada qualifying: "what the hell was that Lewis"?
Not to mention what would happen to/on this forum :)

I agree, but tbh more than one drivers tends to be a lot more rude to his engineer than vice versa. The pit generally has to suck it. Not fair, maybe, but at that point in time who wants to upset the person driving the car? I don't think it's exclusively a Hamilton thing


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:32 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Well, I don't really have a problem with the apology, drivers to the same from time to time when they underperform.
What I question more is things like "what the hell was that".

You have to wonder how Hamilton would react if his engineer would have asked him after Canada qualifying: "what the hell was that Lewis"?
Not to mention what would happen to/on this forum :)

I agree, but tbh more than one drivers tends to be a lot more rude to his engineer than vice versa. The pit generally has to suck it. Not fair, maybe, but at that point in time who wants to upset the person driving the car? I don't think it's exclusively a Hamilton thing


That's probably right. Just responding to the general idea now that drivers calling out the team is apparently seen as fair game when the opposite isn't.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:33 am 
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mds wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
mds wrote:
Well, I don't really have a problem with the apology, drivers to the same from time to time when they underperform.
What I question more is things like "what the hell was that".

You have to wonder how Hamilton would react if his engineer would have asked him after Canada qualifying: "what the hell was that Lewis"?
Not to mention what would happen to/on this forum :)


What the hell was what? That he was .1 slower than Bottas?


Because he did a fine job in qualifying in Canada and certainly wasn't outqualified by a driver/car that shouldn't have done so.

:nod:


I must be missing something here. On old engines Bottas qualified 2nd, and Hamilton was a tenth behind in 4th. Bono had all the information in front of him during qualifying and would certainly know where Hamilton lost the tenth. So I still don't get why Bono would say 'what the hell was that?' As for wondering how Hamilton would react to such a question, I would imagine he would say 'Well you're the tw@t with the telemetry; you tell me.'

Although I imagine if Hamilton gave away three places during a race for no apparent reason the pit wall might ask Hamilton 'What the hell was that.'


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:40 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
I must be missing something here. On old engines Bottas qualified 2nd, and Hamilton was a tenth behind in 4th. Bono had all the information in front of him during qualifying and would certainly know where Hamilton lost the tenth. So I still don't get why Bono would say 'what the hell was that?'


Come on shoot999, Hamilton had a very scruffy qualifying in Canada, he kept locking up and overshooting apexes, and never got a great lap together. He qualified fourth when there was more in the car.

I'm not trying to look for a stick to hit Hamilton with, it was just an example to indicate that we seem to be considering it normal for a driver to question the pit, but only very rarely we see the same from pit to driver when the driver underperforms or commits an error, losing places.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:43 am 
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I wonder why is it so that when a strategist makes a wrong call, or a guy fails to screw properly that nut on the wheel, then it is being seen as the "team" letting down the driver rather than that individual letting down the team. After all, he is hired by the team to do best for the team, and not by the driver.

I know, driver races for his glory, the WDC title (which is at best couple of them per season), but that is still the achievement that really belongs to the team who hires him and pays him to drive their car. And remember... it is the car that actually brings in the titles in reality. Ask Alonso, he could tell a word or two on that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:40 am 
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mds wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
I must be missing something here. On old engines Bottas qualified 2nd, and Hamilton was a tenth behind in 4th. Bono had all the information in front of him during qualifying and would certainly know where Hamilton lost the tenth. So I still don't get why Bono would say 'what the hell was that?'


Come on shoot999, Hamilton had a very scruffy qualifying in Canada, he kept locking up and overshooting apexes, and never got a great lap together. He qualified fourth when there was more in the car.

I'm not trying to look for a stick to hit Hamilton with, it was just an example to indicate that we seem to be considering it normal for a driver to question the pit, but only very rarely we see the same from pit to driver when the driver underperforms or commits an error, losing places.


Drivers regularly use those on the pit wall as punchbags. If you are going to highlight that issue I would suggest that a driver saying 'What the hell was that. How did we miss that' when he's just lost the lead for no apparent reason is not even close to being a relevant example.

And I'm not sure why you restrict your argument to pit radio either . So far this season Mercedes have screwed up 3 times on pit strategy, had 2 DNFs, a gearbox penalty and a late deliver of an upgraded engine; and in response they have had a 'what the hell was that' from one of the drivers, and an unprintable response from the other one. Yet on a number occasions over the years Mercedes management have publicly eviscerated their drivers before they have even returned to the pits. I find their openness refreshing; but given the number who reach for the smelling salts because they are shocked, horrified or disgusted, I'm obviously in a minority.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:51 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
Drivers regularly use those on the pit wall as punchbags. If you are going to highlight that issue I would suggest that a driver saying 'What the hell was that. How did we miss that' when he's just lost the lead for no apparent reason is not even close to being a relevant example.


Of course it's close to a relevant example. It happened, so it's an example, and it's relevant, because it simply is given the context.
It's not limited to Hamilton and this weekend, it's broader, and that's what my remark revolves around - that driver to pit is seen as normal and the reverse is not.

Quote:
And I'm not sure why you restrict your argument to pit radio either .


Because that's what this discussion, and my observation, is about?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:02 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
mds wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
I must be missing something here. On old engines Bottas qualified 2nd, and Hamilton was a tenth behind in 4th. Bono had all the information in front of him during qualifying and would certainly know where Hamilton lost the tenth. So I still don't get why Bono would say 'what the hell was that?'


Come on shoot999, Hamilton had a very scruffy qualifying in Canada, he kept locking up and overshooting apexes, and never got a great lap together. He qualified fourth when there was more in the car.

I'm not trying to look for a stick to hit Hamilton with, it was just an example to indicate that we seem to be considering it normal for a driver to question the pit, but only very rarely we see the same from pit to driver when the driver underperforms or commits an error, losing places.


Drivers regularly use those on the pit wall as punchbags. If you are going to highlight that issue I would suggest that a driver saying 'What the hell was that. How did we miss that' when he's just lost the lead for no apparent reason is not even close to being a relevant example.

And I'm not sure why you restrict your argument to pit radio either . So far this season Mercedes have screwed up 3 times on pit strategy, had 2 DNFs, a gearbox penalty and a late deliver of an upgraded engine; and in response they have had a 'what the hell was that' from one of the drivers, and an unprintable response from the other one. Yet on a number occasions over the years Mercedes management have publicly eviscerated their drivers before they have even returned to the pits. I find their openness refreshing; but given the number who reach for the smelling salts because they are shocked, horrified or disgusted, I'm obviously in a minority.


Wait, this is weird:, you are querying why would someone restrict the argument to the pit radio only, while in the very next sentence you use only the pit radio to show the response of the drivers? You don't know what has been said behind closed doors after the races, etc. so I'm not sure what are you trying to say there?

I also think it is somewhat unfair to include the DNFs and the late engine upgrade there. The screwed strategy yes, I'm with you, but a DNF because of hydraulics (I can't remember what was the other one for), well it's something that happens. Also, having had bulletproof cars the last few years, it would be a bit rich to tell them off, wouldn't it?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:23 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
mds wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
I must be missing something here. On old engines Bottas qualified 2nd, and Hamilton was a tenth behind in 4th. Bono had all the information in front of him during qualifying and would certainly know where Hamilton lost the tenth. So I still don't get why Bono would say 'what the hell was that?'


Come on shoot999, Hamilton had a very scruffy qualifying in Canada, he kept locking up and overshooting apexes, and never got a great lap together. He qualified fourth when there was more in the car.

I'm not trying to look for a stick to hit Hamilton with, it was just an example to indicate that we seem to be considering it normal for a driver to question the pit, but only very rarely we see the same from pit to driver when the driver underperforms or commits an error, losing places.


Drivers regularly use those on the pit wall as punchbags. If you are going to highlight that issue I would suggest that a driver saying 'What the hell was that. How did we miss that' when he's just lost the lead for no apparent reason is not even close to being a relevant example.

And I'm not sure why you restrict your argument to pit radio either . So far this season Mercedes have screwed up 3 times on pit strategy, had 2 DNFs, a gearbox penalty and a late deliver of an upgraded engine; and in response they have had a 'what the hell was that' from one of the drivers, and an unprintable response from the other one. Yet on a number occasions over the years Mercedes management have publicly eviscerated their drivers before they have even returned to the pits. I find their openness refreshing; but given the number who reach for the smelling salts because they are shocked, horrified or disgusted, I'm obviously in a minority.


Wait, this is weird:, you are querying why would someone restrict the argument to the pit radio only, while in the very next sentence you use only the pit radio to show the response of the drivers? You don't know what has been said behind closed doors after the races, etc. so I'm not sure what are you trying to say there?

I also think it is somewhat unfair to include the DNFs and the late engine upgrade there. The screwed strategy yes, I'm with you, but a DNF because of hydraulics (I can't remember what was the other one for), well it's something that happens. Also, having had bulletproof cars the last few years, it would be a bit rich to tell them off, wouldn't it?



Because in this instance the public responses other than what was on the radio by the drivers were all positive, so what would be their relevance? Anymore than what would be said behind closed doors be. The wider point was drivers criticising the team, when it doesn't tend to happen the other way round. My point was it does happen, not through the radio, but still publicly (in Mercedes case). I don't see why if you are making that point you should restrict the argument to just pit radio. Surely it's the public nature of the messages that's relevant, and possibly damaging to the team? But if mds wants to keep the debate to pit radio thats fine.

As for your second point, I don't see anyone telling anyone else off. I probably muddied the waters with the dnf etc. but my point being the drivers have had numerous setbacks this year not of their own making, so a 'what the hell' remark is pretty tame stuff I would have thought.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:34 am 
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Covalent wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lol no man you're way off. We've seen this type of apology before from other teams with other drivers. It wasn't at all unusual and the OP clearly took exception for personal reasons. We've seen McLaren practically begging Alonso to continue and as others have pointed out, Red Bull and Ferrari have done the same. Not everyone in the forum is some kind of sniveling fanboy, however, I am increasingly annoyed by the pervasive assumption that that is the case.


Yet, you initiated this with your post labeling the OP as disliking Lewis in order to invalidate his/her post. Why should you be annoyed?

Why should I be annoyed? This is perhaps a more deep and existential question than you intended. I suppose I'm annoyed by the way that the common modus in here (and on the internet in general..and perhaps in society as a whole these days) is to assume that everyone carries a bias and speaks only towards pushing their own agenda such that when someone is not coming from that perspective, they are still treated as though they are.

Really, you can't see the irony and outright hypocrisy in this post considering where this exchange started?

No there's no hypocrisy whatsoever. The OP was a blatant bash (as is evidenced by the Mod action taken). You are attempting to draw a false equivalence.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:49 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Translation: "I don't like Lewis Hamilton"
Covalent wrote:
Translation: "I'm on a holy mission to uncover anyone who I think might not like Hamilton"

I'm no Hamilton fan, and I think the OP is a pretty blatant Lewis bash.

Personally, I thought it was very mature of the strategist to own up to his mistake on live TV. And it was a major blunder: I (and most other F1 fans) wouldn't have needed 30 seconds to make that decision. The VSC came on pretty close to what Sky was projecting as the pit window - it's a no-brainer to pit.

Hamilton is the sort of driver that needs his energy channeled the right way to perform. They were clearly hoping to get him over the incident by fully clearing it up and refocusing him on the race. It's not clear that it worked, but I don't think driver management is 'grovelling' or 'disgusting'.


No other team has had the strategist ever come on the radio to apologise.

If Bono his race engineer had done it no problem but for the strategist to come on and actually have to give him a pick me up is just wrong.

I'm wondering did Hamilton sulk after the race like Ricciardo in Monaco 2016 or after qualifying for this race when he felt he could have qualified 6th rather than 7th if his team had been fairer, why is more being made of an apology to Hamilton for losing him the race than Ricciardo's sulk after qualifying, is it because it's Hamilton?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:51 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
j man wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
From another site here is a selection of the radio traffic.

Hamilton: “Anything I should be aware of?”
Bonnington: “Nothing at the moment. Let’s just target Verstappen’s lap times.”
Bonnington: “VSC, Keep the delta positive.”

Bonnington: “OK Lewis it will be box at the end of this lap if we are still under VSC conditions.”
Hamilton: “Were we supposed to box that lap?”
Bonnington: “Negative, we weren’t. We were just waiting to see what everyone else did.”
Bonnington: “So VSC ending.”
Bonnington: “So staying out.”

Hamilton: “What the hell was that? How did we miss that? I’ve got no tyre left.”

Hamilton: “I’ve got no tyre left, these tyres.”

Vowles: “Lewis, It’s James. I understand. We’re still with you mate. It’s my mistake. But give us what you can. There will be opportunities later.”
Hamilton: “I can hear you guys.”

Hamilton: “Am I fourth now?”

Bonnington: “Affirm Lewis, yeah. Entirely on us that problem.”

Hamilton: “I wanted to say something but…”


Hamilton: “Just leave me to it, Bono.”

Bonnington: “OK Lewis go HPP 5 position 2.”
Hamilton: “Hesitation out of turn nine.”
Bonnington: “Copy.”

Hamilton: “I need this pack to f***ing charge up.”

Bonnington: “OK Lewis we are up at the rear limit on tyre temps.”
Bonnington: “We have seen signs of rear blistering on tyres ahead.”
Hamilton: “So you just want me to settle for fourth, yeah?”
Bonnington: “Affirm.”

Bonnington appears to have misheard him, and then corrects his reply:

Bonnington: “Sorry, just want to settle in place until they recover.”
Bonnington: “Looks like Ricciardo has big blistering. You should be able to see it from where you are.”

Hamilton: “I’m not going to be able to pass these guys. We’ve just thrown away a win.”

Hamilton: “So I back off and now look what’s happening.”
Vowles: “Lewis it’s James. I have thrown the win away today but you have the potential opportunity to get back up. Just let the tyres cool. We trust in you and believe in you. I’m sorry.”
Hamilton: “I’ve got Vettel now on my tail.”

Vettel then passes Hamilton.

Hamilton: “Well, there you go.”

Hamilton: “I’ve got blistering too.”

Hamilton: ”These tyres aren’t going to last at this pace.”

Hamilton: “My rear tyre is de-laminating more and more.”

Bonnington: “OK copy.”

Hamilton: “Is Ricciardo catching us?”
Bonnington: “Ricciardo 8.7 last lap he is hitting a bit of traffic.”
Bonnington: “Ricciardo 1.4 inside our pit window.”

Hamilton: “I don’t know what to say to you guys. These rears are not going to bloody last.”
Bonnington: “OK, we’re on it.”

Bonnington: “Lewis 12 laps to go, Vettel is 22 seconds up the road, we need to think about consolidating.”
Hamilton: “So we turn down?”
Bonnington: “Affirm, that’s my suggestion.”

Hamilton: “How many points am I going to lose?”
Bonnington: “At current pace it will be three points.”

Hamilton: “I’ve lost power.”
Bonnington: “Stop, stop.”



Personally I see Lewis mostly reporting his situation. Yes there are some complaints about the strategy and tire performance. I don't find him berating anyone in particular on the team.

Thank you for posting, provides some much-needed context :thumbup:

I see very little sulking or childishness in Lewis' radio messages here, just a level of frustration that most drivers would express in the same situation.


Not broadcast.

Hamilton: ' I don't know how many are listening in Brixworth and Brackley, but I cannot remember the last time I had a DNF. This team has had the best reliability over the last years, this team has had by far the best car and is by far the best team I have driven for. We need to recover from this but I am in no doubt that we will come back strong.'

In this respect I'll repeat again did we ever hear the end of Ricciardo's lost win Monaco 2016?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:55 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It's always interesting to actually get the full context of the driver's comments by comparison to the way the media attempts to make them sound. I think we recently had a discussion about this with regards to Alonso's comments and how the media edited them to create a negative perception of him. For Fernando, they want to paint him as a selfish egotistical person. For Lewis they want to portray him as a moody and weak-minded person. It's something I have become more and more aware of. I'm sure the portrayal of Vettel as a hotheaded jerk was also deeply skewed from any sense of balance.


Aye and we literally only needed Seb moaning about blue flags to get the hat-trick of FOM's current favourite narratives.

Alonso sounding fed up and on the verge of quitting. Check
Lewis questioning strategy or some variance of "what's going on guys". Check
RoGro moaning about brakes. Uncheck
Seb moaning about Blue Flags. Uncheck
Kīmi mumbling something about the car. Check
Dan saying something vulgar and/or funny. Uncheck
Max sounding petulant whether he's right or wrong. Check

That's their current 7 favourites imo. We should make a F1 Bingo card with them and some of Ted,Crofty's,Martin's and the rest's most worn out phrases. Might liven up some dull races. :]

It's all in the name of "spicing up the show"!


Is that Liberty speak for dumbing down? Although given the reaction online to a lot of this nonsense, it's just what the majority want.

I groan at the number of people who think that 3 stop races are a good thing, you need tyres totally made out of cheese to facilitate that.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:55 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
mds wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
I must be missing something here. On old engines Bottas qualified 2nd, and Hamilton was a tenth behind in 4th. Bono had all the information in front of him during qualifying and would certainly know where Hamilton lost the tenth. So I still don't get why Bono would say 'what the hell was that?'


Come on shoot999, Hamilton had a very scruffy qualifying in Canada, he kept locking up and overshooting apexes, and never got a great lap together. He qualified fourth when there was more in the car.

I'm not trying to look for a stick to hit Hamilton with, it was just an example to indicate that we seem to be considering it normal for a driver to question the pit, but only very rarely we see the same from pit to driver when the driver underperforms or commits an error, losing places.


Drivers regularly use those on the pit wall as punchbags. If you are going to highlight that issue I would suggest that a driver saying 'What the hell was that. How did we miss that' when he's just lost the lead for no apparent reason is not even close to being a relevant example.

And I'm not sure why you restrict your argument to pit radio either . So far this season Mercedes have screwed up 3 times on pit strategy, had 2 DNFs, a gearbox penalty and a late deliver of an upgraded engine; and in response they have had a 'what the hell was that' from one of the drivers, and an unprintable response from the other one. Yet on a number occasions over the years Mercedes management have publicly eviscerated their drivers before they have even returned to the pits. I find their openness refreshing; but given the number who reach for the smelling salts because they are shocked, horrified or disgusted, I'm obviously in a minority.


Wait, this is weird:, you are querying why would someone restrict the argument to the pit radio only, while in the very next sentence you use only the pit radio to show the response of the drivers? You don't know what has been said behind closed doors after the races, etc. so I'm not sure what are you trying to say there?

I also think it is somewhat unfair to include the DNFs and the late engine upgrade there. The screwed strategy yes, I'm with you, but a DNF because of hydraulics (I can't remember what was the other one for), well it's something that happens. Also, having had bulletproof cars the last few years, it would be a bit rich to tell them off, wouldn't it?



Because in this instance the public responses other than what was on the radio by the drivers were all positive, so what would be their relevance? Anymore than what would be said behind closed doors be. The wider point was drivers criticising the team, when it doesn't tend to happen the other way round. My point was it does happen, not through the radio, but still publicly (in Mercedes case). I don't see why if you are making that point you should restrict the argument to just pit radio. Surely it's the public nature of the messages that's relevant, and possibly damaging to the team? But if mds wants to keep the debate to pit radio thats fine.

As for your second point, I don't see anyone telling anyone else off. I probably muddied the waters with the dnf etc. but my point being the drivers have had numerous setbacks this year not of their own making, so a 'what the hell' remark is pretty tame stuff I would have thought.

Ok, I get you. There's another element to consider though, they can't afford to agitate the driver by telling him off during the race, can they? I am not sure when was last time we heard someone from the pit wall telling a driver off in the radio during a race


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:58 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Translation: "I don't like Lewis Hamilton"
Covalent wrote:
Translation: "I'm on a holy mission to uncover anyone who I think might not like Hamilton"

I'm no Hamilton fan, and I think the OP is a pretty blatant Lewis bash.

Personally, I thought it was very mature of the strategist to own up to his mistake on live TV. And it was a major blunder: I (and most other F1 fans) wouldn't have needed 30 seconds to make that decision. The VSC came on pretty close to what Sky was projecting as the pit window - it's a no-brainer to pit.

Hamilton is the sort of driver that needs his energy channeled the right way to perform. They were clearly hoping to get him over the incident by fully clearing it up and refocusing him on the race. It's not clear that it worked, but I don't think driver management is 'grovelling' or 'disgusting'.


No other team has had the strategist ever come on the radio to apologise.

If Bono his race engineer had done it no problem but for the strategist to come on and actually have to give him a pick me up is just wrong.

So it’s a TEAM sport whenever a driver is concerned but if someone else on the TEAM commits an error there are specificities in how things should be said or manged and someone should speak on their behalf??!? The guy who made THE SAME DUMB MISTAKE... “AGAIN” came on the team radio to apologize for make the same mistake that he’s made before and cost the driver AND team points and wins... I don’t see anything wrong with that.

I was fuming that they once again left one of their drivers out when it was clear they should have pitted him, and it speaks to the ineptitude of the guys in charge that such a SIMPLE call was once again not
Made.

Wolff and Lauda should go and Brawn should resume control of the team. Both those guys are clowns in certain regards and continued errors of this nature is perhaps suggestive of those leading the team. This is why they needed to match any offer and keep Lowe!

I don’t think a single FAN wasn’t aware they should have pitted immediately yet a so called professional was once again lost. A professional in that position needs to be proactive rather than reactive because this is what happens. It’s like they don’t know when they need to put unless their rivals de ode to first.

Was gutted for Valtteri but upset for Lewis.

Yes they are definitely missing something in the strategy department and that would be Ross Brawn.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:00 pm 
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mds wrote:
Well, I don't really have a problem with the apology, drivers to the same from time to time when they underperform.
What I question more is things like "what the hell was that".

You have to wonder how Hamilton would react if his engineer would have asked him after Canada qualifying: "what the hell was that Lewis"?
Not to mention what would happen to/on this forum :)

The team totally screw up the race and the driver is not allowed to question what they just did?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:05 pm 
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mds wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
I must be missing something here. On old engines Bottas qualified 2nd, and Hamilton was a tenth behind in 4th. Bono had all the information in front of him during qualifying and would certainly know where Hamilton lost the tenth. So I still don't get why Bono would say 'what the hell was that?'


Come on shoot999, Hamilton had a very scruffy qualifying in Canada, he kept locking up and overshooting apexes, and never got a great lap together. He qualified fourth when there was more in the car.

I'm not trying to look for a stick to hit Hamilton with, it was just an example to indicate that we seem to be considering it normal for a driver to question the pit, but only very rarely we see the same from pit to driver when the driver underperforms or commits an error, losing places.

You do know that Hamilton had a dead bird in his front brake duct which may well have been causing his brake to overheat and hence the lock ups?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
I must be missing something here. On old engines Bottas qualified 2nd, and Hamilton was a tenth behind in 4th. Bono had all the information in front of him during qualifying and would certainly know where Hamilton lost the tenth. So I still don't get why Bono would say 'what the hell was that?'


Come on shoot999, Hamilton had a very scruffy qualifying in Canada, he kept locking up and overshooting apexes, and never got a great lap together. He qualified fourth when there was more in the car.

I'm not trying to look for a stick to hit Hamilton with, it was just an example to indicate that we seem to be considering it normal for a driver to question the pit, but only very rarely we see the same from pit to driver when the driver underperforms or commits an error, losing places.

You do know that Hamilton had a dead bird in his front brake duct which may well have been causing his brake to overheat and hence the lock ups?

That Mercedes has denied of playing part in his issues?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
mds wrote:
Come on shoot999, Hamilton had a very scruffy qualifying in Canada, he kept locking up and overshooting apexes, and never got a great lap together. He qualified fourth when there was more in the car.

I'm not trying to look for a stick to hit Hamilton with, it was just an example to indicate that we seem to be considering it normal for a driver to question the pit, but only very rarely we see the same from pit to driver when the driver underperforms or commits an error, losing places.


Drivers regularly use those on the pit wall as punchbags. If you are going to highlight that issue I would suggest that a driver saying 'What the hell was that. How did we miss that' when he's just lost the lead for no apparent reason is not even close to being a relevant example.

And I'm not sure why you restrict your argument to pit radio either . So far this season Mercedes have screwed up 3 times on pit strategy, had 2 DNFs, a gearbox penalty and a late deliver of an upgraded engine; and in response they have had a 'what the hell was that' from one of the drivers, and an unprintable response from the other one. Yet on a number occasions over the years Mercedes management have publicly eviscerated their drivers before they have even returned to the pits. I find their openness refreshing; but given the number who reach for the smelling salts because they are shocked, horrified or disgusted, I'm obviously in a minority.


Wait, this is weird:, you are querying why would someone restrict the argument to the pit radio only, while in the very next sentence you use only the pit radio to show the response of the drivers? You don't know what has been said behind closed doors after the races, etc. so I'm not sure what are you trying to say there?

I also think it is somewhat unfair to include the DNFs and the late engine upgrade there. The screwed strategy yes, I'm with you, but a DNF because of hydraulics (I can't remember what was the other one for), well it's something that happens. Also, having had bulletproof cars the last few years, it would be a bit rich to tell them off, wouldn't it?



Because in this instance the public responses other than what was on the radio by the drivers were all positive, so what would be their relevance? Anymore than what would be said behind closed doors be. The wider point was drivers criticising the team, when it doesn't tend to happen the other way round. My point was it does happen, not through the radio, but still publicly (in Mercedes case). I don't see why if you are making that point you should restrict the argument to just pit radio. Surely it's the public nature of the messages that's relevant, and possibly damaging to the team? But if mds wants to keep the debate to pit radio thats fine.

As for your second point, I don't see anyone telling anyone else off. I probably muddied the waters with the dnf etc. but my point being the drivers have had numerous setbacks this year not of their own making, so a 'what the hell' remark is pretty tame stuff I would have thought.

Ok, I get you. There's another element to consider though, they can't afford to agitate the driver by telling him off during the race, can they? I am not sure when was last time we heard someone from the pit wall telling a driver off in the radio during a race

Gunther Steiner told Grosjean to shut up, I think that was last year?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:11 pm 
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    pokerman wrote:
    mds wrote:
    Well, I don't really have a problem with the apology, drivers to the same from time to time when they underperform.
    What I question more is things like "what the hell was that".

    You have to wonder how Hamilton would react if his engineer would have asked him after Canada qualifying: "what the hell was that Lewis"?
    Not to mention what would happen to/on this forum :)

    The team totally screw up the race and the driver is not allowed to question what they just did?


    Can you please, absolutely, PLEASE try changing your approach in discussions, instead of replying on every single post from front to back, try actually reading through the discussion first, consider what you want to reply on and then do so instead of digging everything up and seeing afterwards that there have been clarifications?

    You've been doing this for years and it gets tiresome. Further in the discussion I think I have, in discussion with shoot999, explained my position better. So please, read further, and respond to that if you think it's still necessary.

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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:11 pm 
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    pokerman wrote:
    Siao7 wrote:
    shoot999 wrote:
    Siao7 wrote:
    shoot999 wrote:

    Drivers regularly use those on the pit wall as punchbags. If you are going to highlight that issue I would suggest that a driver saying 'What the hell was that. How did we miss that' when he's just lost the lead for no apparent reason is not even close to being a relevant example.

    And I'm not sure why you restrict your argument to pit radio either . So far this season Mercedes have screwed up 3 times on pit strategy, had 2 DNFs, a gearbox penalty and a late deliver of an upgraded engine; and in response they have had a 'what the hell was that' from one of the drivers, and an unprintable response from the other one. Yet on a number occasions over the years Mercedes management have publicly eviscerated their drivers before they have even returned to the pits. I find their openness refreshing; but given the number who reach for the smelling salts because they are shocked, horrified or disgusted, I'm obviously in a minority.


    Wait, this is weird:, you are querying why would someone restrict the argument to the pit radio only, while in the very next sentence you use only the pit radio to show the response of the drivers? You don't know what has been said behind closed doors after the races, etc. so I'm not sure what are you trying to say there?

    I also think it is somewhat unfair to include the DNFs and the late engine upgrade there. The screwed strategy yes, I'm with you, but a DNF because of hydraulics (I can't remember what was the other one for), well it's something that happens. Also, having had bulletproof cars the last few years, it would be a bit rich to tell them off, wouldn't it?



    Because in this instance the public responses other than what was on the radio by the drivers were all positive, so what would be their relevance? Anymore than what would be said behind closed doors be. The wider point was drivers criticising the team, when it doesn't tend to happen the other way round. My point was it does happen, not through the radio, but still publicly (in Mercedes case). I don't see why if you are making that point you should restrict the argument to just pit radio. Surely it's the public nature of the messages that's relevant, and possibly damaging to the team? But if mds wants to keep the debate to pit radio thats fine.

    As for your second point, I don't see anyone telling anyone else off. I probably muddied the waters with the dnf etc. but my point being the drivers have had numerous setbacks this year not of their own making, so a 'what the hell' remark is pretty tame stuff I would have thought.

    Ok, I get you. There's another element to consider though, they can't afford to agitate the driver by telling him off during the race, can they? I am not sure when was last time we heard someone from the pit wall telling a driver off in the radio during a race

    Gunther Steiner told Grosjean to shut up, I think that was last year?

    Oh, I missed that, thanks


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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:13 pm 
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    pokerman wrote:
    Siao7 wrote:
    shoot999 wrote:
    Siao7 wrote:
    shoot999 wrote:

    Drivers regularly use those on the pit wall as punchbags. If you are going to highlight that issue I would suggest that a driver saying 'What the hell was that. How did we miss that' when he's just lost the lead for no apparent reason is not even close to being a relevant example.

    And I'm not sure why you restrict your argument to pit radio either . So far this season Mercedes have screwed up 3 times on pit strategy, had 2 DNFs, a gearbox penalty and a late deliver of an upgraded engine; and in response they have had a 'what the hell was that' from one of the drivers, and an unprintable response from the other one. Yet on a number occasions over the years Mercedes management have publicly eviscerated their drivers before they have even returned to the pits. I find their openness refreshing; but given the number who reach for the smelling salts because they are shocked, horrified or disgusted, I'm obviously in a minority.


    Wait, this is weird:, you are querying why would someone restrict the argument to the pit radio only, while in the very next sentence you use only the pit radio to show the response of the drivers? You don't know what has been said behind closed doors after the races, etc. so I'm not sure what are you trying to say there?

    I also think it is somewhat unfair to include the DNFs and the late engine upgrade there. The screwed strategy yes, I'm with you, but a DNF because of hydraulics (I can't remember what was the other one for), well it's something that happens. Also, having had bulletproof cars the last few years, it would be a bit rich to tell them off, wouldn't it?



    Because in this instance the public responses other than what was on the radio by the drivers were all positive, so what would be their relevance? Anymore than what would be said behind closed doors be. The wider point was drivers criticising the team, when it doesn't tend to happen the other way round. My point was it does happen, not through the radio, but still publicly (in Mercedes case). I don't see why if you are making that point you should restrict the argument to just pit radio. Surely it's the public nature of the messages that's relevant, and possibly damaging to the team? But if mds wants to keep the debate to pit radio thats fine.

    As for your second point, I don't see anyone telling anyone else off. I probably muddied the waters with the dnf etc. but my point being the drivers have had numerous setbacks this year not of their own making, so a 'what the hell' remark is pretty tame stuff I would have thought.

    Ok, I get you. There's another element to consider though, they can't afford to agitate the driver by telling him off during the race, can they? I am not sure when was last time we heard someone from the pit wall telling a driver off in the radio during a race

    Gunther Steiner told Grosjean to shut up, I think that was last year?


    This is a very good example. It sticks because it's not often heard - but how many times have we heard a driver asking the race engineer to shut up? It happens quite regularly.

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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:22 pm 
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    mds wrote:
    This is a very good example. It sticks because it's not often heard - but how many times have we heard a driver asking the race engineer to shut up? It happens quite regularly.


    I think it's often fair enough for a driver to ask the engineer to shut up when they are in the middle of a race to let them focus on what they are doing. I know it's not even close but when I'm driving in a sim, if the wife even asks if I want a cup of tea I usually go sailing straight off. :)


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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:29 pm 
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    sandman1347 wrote:
    Covalent wrote:
    sandman1347 wrote:
    Blake wrote:
    sandman1347 wrote:
    Lol no man you're way off. We've seen this type of apology before from other teams with other drivers. It wasn't at all unusual and the OP clearly took exception for personal reasons. We've seen McLaren practically begging Alonso to continue and as others have pointed out, Red Bull and Ferrari have done the same. Not everyone in the forum is some kind of sniveling fanboy, however, I am increasingly annoyed by the pervasive assumption that that is the case.


    Yet, you initiated this with your post labeling the OP as disliking Lewis in order to invalidate his/her post. Why should you be annoyed?

    Why should I be annoyed? This is perhaps a more deep and existential question than you intended. I suppose I'm annoyed by the way that the common modus in here (and on the internet in general..and perhaps in society as a whole these days) is to assume that everyone carries a bias and speaks only towards pushing their own agenda such that when someone is not coming from that perspective, they are still treated as though they are.

    Really, you can't see the irony and outright hypocrisy in this post considering where this exchange started?

    No there's no hypocrisy whatsoever. The OP was a blatant bash (as is evidenced by the Mod action taken). You are attempting to draw a false equivalence.

    Well I could say yes there is, but maybe it's better to agree to disagree.

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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:48 pm 
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    cm97 wrote:
    Whilst Lewis let the drama influence his driving performance, I don’t have a problem with Mercedes apologising.
    Let’s switch the roles and assume Lewis was leading and put in the fence, thus losing the race. In that case it’s likely Lewis or any other driver would apologise to the team via radio and in person. This case is really no different.


    Given his tire problems and early signs of the fuel pressure problem I don't know that Lewis performance was harmed significantly by the strategy screw up or his attitude to that mistake. It's clear that running in dirty air required for getting to the required DRS gap ruined a lot of tires. Seb had problems and Daniel also had problems with tires.

    I agree that Lewis and a lot of other drivers have apologized to teams when they feel they have underperformed.


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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:51 pm 
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    mds wrote:
      pokerman wrote:
      mds wrote:
      Well, I don't really have a problem with the apology, drivers to the same from time to time when they underperform.
      What I question more is things like "what the hell was that".

      You have to wonder how Hamilton would react if his engineer would have asked him after Canada qualifying: "what the hell was that Lewis"?
      Not to mention what would happen to/on this forum :)

      The team totally screw up the race and the driver is not allowed to question what they just did?


      Can you please, absolutely, PLEASE try changing your approach in discussions, instead of replying on every single post from front to back, try actually reading through the discussion first, consider what you want to reply on and then do so instead of digging everything up and seeing afterwards that there have been clarifications?

      You've been doing this for years and it gets tiresome. Further in the discussion I think I have, in discussion with shoot999, explained my position better. So please, read further, and respond to that if you think it's still necessary.

      I think it's ridiculous that a driver cannot be allowed to question a decision by a team especially when it's such a glaring mistake and loses him the race, I'm sure Red Bull aplogised to Ricciardo after Monaco 2016 yet here we are setting up Hamilton as some kind of prima-donna because he said "what the hell was that" and then the team aplogised to him, I don't care about your semantics about the teams not questioning the drivers, although I did give one example off the top of my head.

      A far bigger event over the weekend was Ricciardo wrongly accusing his team of unfair treatment in qualifying but that didn't get the same amount of air miles, it didn't generate it's own thread perhaps because one driver is seen as likeable and the other not?

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      PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:59 pm 
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      mds wrote:
      pokerman wrote:
      Siao7 wrote:
      shoot999 wrote:
      Siao7 wrote:
      Wait, this is weird:, you are querying why would someone restrict the argument to the pit radio only, while in the very next sentence you use only the pit radio to show the response of the drivers? You don't know what has been said behind closed doors after the races, etc. so I'm not sure what are you trying to say there?

      I also think it is somewhat unfair to include the DNFs and the late engine upgrade there. The screwed strategy yes, I'm with you, but a DNF because of hydraulics (I can't remember what was the other one for), well it's something that happens. Also, having had bulletproof cars the last few years, it would be a bit rich to tell them off, wouldn't it?



      Because in this instance the public responses other than what was on the radio by the drivers were all positive, so what would be their relevance? Anymore than what would be said behind closed doors be. The wider point was drivers criticising the team, when it doesn't tend to happen the other way round. My point was it does happen, not through the radio, but still publicly (in Mercedes case). I don't see why if you are making that point you should restrict the argument to just pit radio. Surely it's the public nature of the messages that's relevant, and possibly damaging to the team? But if mds wants to keep the debate to pit radio thats fine.

      As for your second point, I don't see anyone telling anyone else off. I probably muddied the waters with the dnf etc. but my point being the drivers have had numerous setbacks this year not of their own making, so a 'what the hell' remark is pretty tame stuff I would have thought.

      Ok, I get you. There's another element to consider though, they can't afford to agitate the driver by telling him off during the race, can they? I am not sure when was last time we heard someone from the pit wall telling a driver off in the radio during a race

      Gunther Steiner told Grosjean to shut up, I think that was last year?


      This is a very good example. It sticks because it's not often heard - but how many times have we heard a driver asking the race engineer to shut up? It happens quite regularly.

      Hamilton didn't even say that though, he wasn't disrespectful, he just said "what the hell was that", I think losing the race is quite an important thing?

      However a point is being missed hear that the thread starter's annoyance is with the team apologising to Hamilton, I'm sure that Red Bull apologised to Ricciardo in Monaco 2016, I can't remember if Ricciardo said anything on the radio at the time but after the race he sure was angry, I don't recall Hamilton being angry?

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      PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:01 pm 
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      pokerman wrote:
      [
      I think it's ridiculous that a driver cannot be allowed to question a decision by a team especially when it's such a glaring mistake and loses him the race, I'm sure Red Bull aplogised to Ricciardo after Monaco 2016 yet here we are setting up Hamilton as some kind of prima-donna because he said "what the hell was that" and then the team aplogised to him, I don't care about your semantics about the teams not questioning the drivers, although I did give one example off the top of my head.


      No, "we" are not. Read. It's not hard. I literally said it was much broader than just Hamilton.

      Quote:
      A far bigger event over the weekend was Ricciardo wrongly accusing his team of unfair treatment in qualifying but that didn't get the same amount of air miles, it didn't generate it's own thread perhaps because one driver is seen as likeable and the other not?


      Well, I'm not responsible for other people starting threads about X and not about Y, but I did respond in a thread about Ricciardo's behavior because I felt it was rather weak of him.

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      PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:01 pm 
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      pokerman wrote:
      mds wrote:
        pokerman wrote:
        mds wrote:
        Well, I don't really have a problem with the apology, drivers to the same from time to time when they underperform.
        What I question more is things like "what the hell was that".

        You have to wonder how Hamilton would react if his engineer would have asked him after Canada qualifying: "what the hell was that Lewis"?
        Not to mention what would happen to/on this forum :)

        The team totally screw up the race and the driver is not allowed to question what they just did?


        Can you please, absolutely, PLEASE try changing your approach in discussions, instead of replying on every single post from front to back, try actually reading through the discussion first, consider what you want to reply on and then do so instead of digging everything up and seeing afterwards that there have been clarifications?

        You've been doing this for years and it gets tiresome. Further in the discussion I think I have, in discussion with shoot999, explained my position better. So please, read further, and respond to that if you think it's still necessary.

        I think it's ridiculous that a driver cannot be allowed to question a decision by a team especially when it's such a glaring mistake and loses him the race, I'm sure Red Bull aplogised to Ricciardo after Monaco 2016 yet here we are setting up Hamilton as some kind of prima-donna because he said "what the hell was that" and then the team aplogised to him, I don't care about your semantics about the teams not questioning the drivers, although I did give one example off the top of my head.

        A far bigger event over the weekend was Ricciardo wrongly accusing his team of unfair treatment in qualifying but that didn't get the same amount of air miles, it didn't generate it's own thread perhaps because one driver is seen as likeable and the other not?

        There's nothing to stop you creating your own thread if you like? Is the OP required to make a new thread on every incident?

        I think you are completely missing the point here. mds was talking about drivers in general being rude to their engineers mid-race and using this recent relevant example, which was already being discussed, to highlight it. There is no need to view it as a Hamilton bash


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        PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:02 pm 
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        He said what!

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        PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:03 pm 
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        pokerman wrote:
        mds wrote:
        pokerman wrote:
        Siao7 wrote:
        shoot999 wrote:

        Because in this instance the public responses other than what was on the radio by the drivers were all positive, so what would be their relevance? Anymore than what would be said behind closed doors be. The wider point was drivers criticising the team, when it doesn't tend to happen the other way round. My point was it does happen, not through the radio, but still publicly (in Mercedes case). I don't see why if you are making that point you should restrict the argument to just pit radio. Surely it's the public nature of the messages that's relevant, and possibly damaging to the team? But if mds wants to keep the debate to pit radio thats fine.

        As for your second point, I don't see anyone telling anyone else off. I probably muddied the waters with the dnf etc. but my point being the drivers have had numerous setbacks this year not of their own making, so a 'what the hell' remark is pretty tame stuff I would have thought.

        Ok, I get you. There's another element to consider though, they can't afford to agitate the driver by telling him off during the race, can they? I am not sure when was last time we heard someone from the pit wall telling a driver off in the radio during a race

        Gunther Steiner told Grosjean to shut up, I think that was last year?


        This is a very good example. It sticks because it's not often heard - but how many times have we heard a driver asking the race engineer to shut up? It happens quite regularly.

        Hamilton didn't even say that though


        I didn't say he did. It was in the context of accepted driver>pit but not pit>driver radio. Here I am actually wanting to stop focusing on Hamilton and make a broader point, but then you focus on Hamilton again.

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        PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:05 pm 
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        Lojik wrote:
        mds wrote:
        This is a very good example. It sticks because it's not often heard - but how many times have we heard a driver asking the race engineer to shut up? It happens quite regularly.


        I think it's often fair enough for a driver to ask the engineer to shut up when they are in the middle of a race to let them focus on what they are doing. I know it's not even close but when I'm driving in a sim, if the wife even asks if I want a cup of tea I usually go sailing straight off. :)

        It happened to me in a kart endurance race were we had to pit to kart radio, it had just started to rain and I was on slick tyres, I was approaching a fast chicane when I got the message pit for tyres, it totally broke my concentration which had to be at the maximum in those conditions, I locked up, missed the chicane and went onto the grass.

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        PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:07 pm 
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        pokerman wrote:
        I can't remember if Ricciardo said anything on the radio at the time .......




        Over the radio he said "nothing you can say can make that any better....just save it"


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        PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:08 pm 
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        mds wrote:
        pokerman wrote:
        [
        I think it's ridiculous that a driver cannot be allowed to question a decision by a team especially when it's such a glaring mistake and loses him the race, I'm sure Red Bull aplogised to Ricciardo after Monaco 2016 yet here we are setting up Hamilton as some kind of prima-donna because he said "what the hell was that" and then the team aplogised to him, I don't care about your semantics about the teams not questioning the drivers, although I did give one example off the top of my head.


        No, "we" are not. Read. It's not hard. I literally said it was much broader than just Hamilton.

        Quote:
        A far bigger event over the weekend was Ricciardo wrongly accusing his team of unfair treatment in qualifying but that didn't get the same amount of air miles, it didn't generate it's own thread perhaps because one driver is seen as likeable and the other not?


        Well, I'm not responsible for other people starting threads about X and not about Y, but I did respond in a thread about Ricciardo's behavior because I felt it was rather weak of him.

        My reference is to the thread not you in particular.

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        PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:12 pm 
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        pokerman wrote:
        mds wrote:
          pokerman wrote:
          mds wrote:
          Well, I don't really have a problem with the apology, drivers to the same from time to time when they underperform.
          What I question more is things like "what the hell was that".

          You have to wonder how Hamilton would react if his engineer would have asked him after Canada qualifying: "what the hell was that Lewis"?
          Not to mention what would happen to/on this forum :)

          The team totally screw up the race and the driver is not allowed to question what they just did?


          Can you please, absolutely, PLEASE try changing your approach in discussions, instead of replying on every single post from front to back, try actually reading through the discussion first, consider what you want to reply on and then do so instead of digging everything up and seeing afterwards that there have been clarifications?

          You've been doing this for years and it gets tiresome. Further in the discussion I think I have, in discussion with shoot999, explained my position better. So please, read further, and respond to that if you think it's still necessary.

          I think it's ridiculous that a driver cannot be allowed to question a decision by a team especially when it's such a glaring mistake and loses him the race, I'm sure Red Bull aplogised to Ricciardo after Monaco 2016 yet here we are setting up Hamilton as some kind of prima-donna because he said "what the hell was that" and then the team aplogised to him, I don't care about your semantics about the teams not questioning the drivers, although I did give one example off the top of my head.

          A far bigger event over the weekend was Ricciardo wrongly accusing his team of unfair treatment in qualifying but that didn't get the same amount of air miles, it didn't generate it's own thread perhaps because one driver is seen as likeable and the other not?


          I think you need to re-read this thread. Especially after Mort Canard's post of the radio exchange...


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          PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:14 pm 
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          Zoue wrote:
          pokerman wrote:
          mds wrote:
            pokerman wrote:
            mds wrote:
            Well, I don't really have a problem with the apology, drivers to the same from time to time when they underperform.
            What I question more is things like "what the hell was that".

            You have to wonder how Hamilton would react if his engineer would have asked him after Canada qualifying: "what the hell was that Lewis"?
            Not to mention what would happen to/on this forum :)

            The team totally screw up the race and the driver is not allowed to question what they just did?


            Can you please, absolutely, PLEASE try changing your approach in discussions, instead of replying on every single post from front to back, try actually reading through the discussion first, consider what you want to reply on and then do so instead of digging everything up and seeing afterwards that there have been clarifications?

            You've been doing this for years and it gets tiresome. Further in the discussion I think I have, in discussion with shoot999, explained my position better. So please, read further, and respond to that if you think it's still necessary.

            I think it's ridiculous that a driver cannot be allowed to question a decision by a team especially when it's such a glaring mistake and loses him the race, I'm sure Red Bull aplogised to Ricciardo after Monaco 2016 yet here we are setting up Hamilton as some kind of prima-donna because he said "what the hell was that" and then the team aplogised to him, I don't care about your semantics about the teams not questioning the drivers, although I did give one example off the top of my head.

            A far bigger event over the weekend was Ricciardo wrongly accusing his team of unfair treatment in qualifying but that didn't get the same amount of air miles, it didn't generate it's own thread perhaps because one driver is seen as likeable and the other not?

            There's nothing to stop you creating your own thread if you like? Is the OP required to make a new thread on every incident?

            I think you are completely missing the point here. mds was talking about drivers in general being rude to their engineers mid-race and using this recent relevant example, which was already being discussed, to highlight it. There is no need to view it as a Hamilton bash

            You think Hamilton was being rude?

            That's not the point of the thread anyway, it's the apology that's being questioned.

            I fail to see what Hamilton did wrong and the reference to Ricciardo who was clearly in the wrong is how it is seemingly not note worthy in comparison, why is the thread starter not showing the same angst towards Ricciardo?

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