planetf1.com

It is currently Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:48 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:48 pm
Posts: 478
I don't think anyone in their right mind actually believes it was deliberate. Merc are intentionally exaggerating to make people take notice, realise it's a big deal and influence the people in power.

Hopefully the Ferrari drivers realise that the race isn't won in the first corner.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6287
Location: Nebraska, USA
Ocon wrote:
I don't think anyone in their right mind actually believes it was deliberate. Merc are intentionally exaggerating to make people take notice, realise it's a big deal and influence the people in power.

Hopefully the Ferrari drivers realise that the race isn't won in the first corner.


Like Ferrari drivers are the only drivers who have ever had first corner incidents??? Thank goodness for that! Should be much easier now for F1 to eliminate those incidents with only one team having an "issue".

Thanks to Wolfe & company for creating a storm in a teacup.
:lol:

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7172
Location: Belgium
Ocon wrote:
Hopefully the Ferrari drivers realise that the race isn't won in the first corner.
Combine what you see race after race with Hamilton's post-Silverstone comments, and you will find that the race practically is won in the first corner. Being able to run in undisturbed air is a huge advantage in today's F1.

I think, especially after last Sunday's race, Hamilton should consider locking out the second/third row, if he wishes to avoid first corner accidents. As he demonstrated, his car is perfectly capable of following behind other cars. (And yes, I fully realise how this seemingly contradicts the first corner importance. Isn't F1 wonderful?)

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:48 pm
Posts: 478
Blake wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I don't think anyone in their right mind actually believes it was deliberate. Merc are intentionally exaggerating to make people take notice, realise it's a big deal and influence the people in power.

Hopefully the Ferrari drivers realise that the race isn't won in the first corner.


Like Ferrari drivers are the only drivers who have ever had first corner incidents??? Thank goodness for that! Should be much easier now for F1 to eliminate those incidents with only one team having an "issue".

Thanks to Wolfe & company for creating a storm in a teacup.
:lol:

This is not about what has ever happened in a fist corner in F1, rather than what has been happening lately. Why are people so surprised that Merc are voicing their concerns?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6255
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, in Silverstone Hamilton actually was the victim - no matter how the Vettel-Räikkönen brigade tries to spin it.

Same story with midseason tyre changes: when they suit Vettel, they are fine (2013), when they do not suit him, they are unfair.

:lol: 8)


No one is denying that Paolo_Lasardi, Lewis was taken out. What people are denying is that he was a victim of a deliberate plot to take out the Mercs. There is no way of spinning things, first corner incidents happen.

If there was any spinning at all, it was Lewis (and a few selected Merc people) suggesting that Kimi took him out on purpose.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6255
Ocon wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I don't think anyone in their right mind actually believes it was deliberate. Merc are intentionally exaggerating to make people take notice, realise it's a big deal and influence the people in power.

Hopefully the Ferrari drivers realise that the race isn't won in the first corner.


Like Ferrari drivers are the only drivers who have ever had first corner incidents??? Thank goodness for that! Should be much easier now for F1 to eliminate those incidents with only one team having an "issue".

Thanks to Wolfe & company for creating a storm in a teacup.
:lol:

This is not about what has ever happened in a fist corner in F1, rather than what has been happening lately. Why are people so surprised that Merc are voicing their concerns?

It is the way they voice their concern I guess. It is one thing to tell the FIA to pay attention to the first corner incidents or to try and be consistent with their penalties and another completely to accuse another team of targeting them on purpose. Surely you can tell the difference


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:48 pm
Posts: 478
Fiki wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Hopefully the Ferrari drivers realise that the race isn't won in the first corner.
Combine what you see race after race with Hamilton's post-Silverstone comments, and you will find that the race practically is won in the first corner. Being able to run in undisturbed air is a huge advantage in today's F1.

I think, especially after last Sunday's race, Hamilton should consider locking out the second/third row, if he wishes to avoid first corner accidents. As he demonstrated, his car is perfectly capable of following behind other cars. (And yes, I fully realise how this seemingly contradicts the first corner importance. Isn't F1 wonderful?)


It is a huge advantage to place yourself in a good position at the start. But that's not a reason to risk yours and others races because of it. If you lose a position at the start, just accept the fact and get on with it.

You do have a point though, the fact that cars have difficulties running close to each other is probably the reason drivers are so agressive in the first corners.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:48 pm
Posts: 478
Siao7 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I don't think anyone in their right mind actually believes it was deliberate. Merc are intentionally exaggerating to make people take notice, realise it's a big deal and influence the people in power.

Hopefully the Ferrari drivers realise that the race isn't won in the first corner.


Like Ferrari drivers are the only drivers who have ever had first corner incidents??? Thank goodness for that! Should be much easier now for F1 to eliminate those incidents with only one team having an "issue".

Thanks to Wolfe & company for creating a storm in a teacup.
:lol:

This is not about what has ever happened in a fist corner in F1, rather than what has been happening lately. Why are people so surprised that Merc are voicing their concerns?

It is the way they voice their concern I guess. It is one thing to tell the FIA to pay attention to the first corner incidents or to try and be consistent with their penalties and another completely to accuse another team of targeting them on purpose. Surely you can tell the difference

Obviously, they didn't think that was enough for FIA to take notice so they exaggerated things. As far as I'm aware, no one said directly that it was deliberate. It was first said that it was either deliberate or that they're incompetent. And then Lewis said Ferrari had interesting tactics. Interesting tactics could mean, being too agressive at the start, not deliberately taking him out.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:10 pm
Posts: 61
Mod Edit: Inappropriate Post Removed


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1500
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, in Silverstone Hamilton actually was the victim - no matter how the Vettel-Räikkönen brigade tries to spin it.

Same story with midseason tyre changes: when they suit Vettel, they are fine (2013), when they do not suit him, they are unfair.

:lol: 8)


Intellectual dishonesty at it's best Vettel led the championship and Redbull the constructors even before the tyre change.

Safety was key for the tyre change Mercedes were complaining to the extent they sort to cheat the system by conducting with Pirelli an illegal tyre test.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3307
Ocon wrote:
I don't think anyone in their right mind actually believes it was deliberate. Merc are intentionally exaggerating to make people take notice, realise it's a big deal and influence the people in power.

Hopefully the Ferrari drivers realise that the race isn't won in the first corner.


It was a message to Charlie and the stewards. Basically; you need to stop Ferrari hitting our cars. The way the message was delivered has riled up a lot of people.
What Hamilton said, he was still upset, probably at himself and at everybody, but he did apologize afterwards. So I think it is time to move on from this.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6255
kleefton wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I don't think anyone in their right mind actually believes it was deliberate. Merc are intentionally exaggerating to make people take notice, realise it's a big deal and influence the people in power.

Hopefully the Ferrari drivers realise that the race isn't won in the first corner.


It was a message to Charlie and the stewards. Basically; you need to stop Ferrari hitting our cars. The way the message was delivered has riled up a lot of people.
What Hamilton said, he was still upset, probably at himself and at everybody, but he did apologize afterwards. So I think it is time to move on from this.


I'm sorry, this is absurd. How on earth are you going to stop first lap incidents? It is the tightest that an F1 race gets, 20 cars racing for that first few corners side by side. How are you going to stop them?

No, it wasn't a message to Charlie and the stewards, it was proper BS. There is no way to guarantee that there will be no first lap incidents. They are just trying to get under their skin as Ferrari has caught up.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 11411
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, in Silverstone Hamilton actually was the victim - no matter how the Vettel-Räikkönen brigade tries to spin it.

Same story with midseason tyre changes: when they suit Vettel, they are fine (2013), when they do not suit him, they are unfair.

:lol: 8)


The tyre changes in 2013 were not fine because they "suited Vettel". They were fine and even necessary because racing had become an utter joke even before the Silverstone events. Drivers complaining of "not being able to drive any slower" while still having extreme deg, fans having a laugh about "cheese tyres" or "comedy tyres", general outcry of changing the tyres.

This situation does not exist today. Therefore it's not comparable.

It's highly annoying how you are being deliberately obtuse and ignoring arguments just to suit your agenda in pushing this non-existing point that the tyre changes were endorsed because they suited Vettel. You would like it to be that way, but you are misrepresenting. But of course nothing is new there, as you have shown at various times in the past how avid you are to paint Vettel fans in a bad light. Poor form man, poor form.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Last edited by mds on Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 11411
Ocon wrote:
This is not about what has ever happened in a fist corner in F1, rather than what has been happening lately. Why are people so surprised that Merc are voicing their concerns?


Because 2 isolated events, one of which disadvantaged Vettel himself, do not form some kind of "trend" that should be labeled as something that "has been happening lately".

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23176
Ocon wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I don't think anyone in their right mind actually believes it was deliberate. Merc are intentionally exaggerating to make people take notice, realise it's a big deal and influence the people in power.

Hopefully the Ferrari drivers realise that the race isn't won in the first corner.


Like Ferrari drivers are the only drivers who have ever had first corner incidents??? Thank goodness for that! Should be much easier now for F1 to eliminate those incidents with only one team having an "issue".

Thanks to Wolfe & company for creating a storm in a teacup.
:lol:

This is not about what has ever happened in a fist corner in F1, rather than what has been happening lately. Why are people so surprised that Merc are voicing their concerns?

It is the way they voice their concern I guess. It is one thing to tell the FIA to pay attention to the first corner incidents or to try and be consistent with their penalties and another completely to accuse another team of targeting them on purpose. Surely you can tell the difference

Obviously, they didn't think that was enough for FIA to take notice so they exaggerated things. As far as I'm aware, no one said directly that it was deliberate. It was first said that it was either deliberate or that they're incompetent. And then Lewis said Ferrari had interesting tactics. Interesting tactics could mean, being too agressive at the start, not deliberately taking him out.

yeah I think you're reaching there. He even admitted he said some dumb sh*t after Kimi apologized, so I think it's pretty clear what he meant


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23176
Ocon wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I don't think anyone in their right mind actually believes it was deliberate. Merc are intentionally exaggerating to make people take notice, realise it's a big deal and influence the people in power.

Hopefully the Ferrari drivers realise that the race isn't won in the first corner.


Like Ferrari drivers are the only drivers who have ever had first corner incidents??? Thank goodness for that! Should be much easier now for F1 to eliminate those incidents with only one team having an "issue".

Thanks to Wolfe & company for creating a storm in a teacup.
:lol:

This is not about what has ever happened in a fist corner in F1, rather than what has been happening lately. Why are people so surprised that Merc are voicing their concerns?

because they are not really voicing their concerns, they are lashing out in the heat of the moment.

No-one in their right mind would think there was any kind of deliberate action on behalf of the Ferrari drivers, so there's not a lot of concerns that may be addressed.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:58 pm
Posts: 22
i think Hamilton and Mercedes opened a can of worms here. What happens if Hamilto and Bottas take out the Ferraris resulting in a DNF? I bet you Hamilton and their fans would go into hiding because their "interesting tactics" quote would be used against them.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6287
Location: Nebraska, USA
Thebusinessmuppet wrote:
i think Hamilton and Mercedes opened a can of worms here. What happens if Hamilto and Bottas take out the Ferraris resulting in a DNF? I bet you Hamilton and their fans would go into hiding because their "interesting tactics" quote would be used against them.


No, they won't. The will just say that it was "justified" or karma because of those "interesting tactics".

:nod:

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3307
Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I don't think anyone in their right mind actually believes it was deliberate. Merc are intentionally exaggerating to make people take notice, realise it's a big deal and influence the people in power.

Hopefully the Ferrari drivers realise that the race isn't won in the first corner.


It was a message to Charlie and the stewards. Basically; you need to stop Ferrari hitting our cars. The way the message was delivered has riled up a lot of people.
What Hamilton said, he was still upset, probably at himself and at everybody, but he did apologize afterwards. So I think it is time to move on from this.


I'm sorry, this is absurd. How on earth are you going to stop first lap incidents? It is the tightest that an F1 race gets, 20 cars racing for that first few corners side by side. How are you going to stop them?

No, it wasn't a message to Charlie and the stewards, it was proper BS. There is no way to guarantee that there will be no first lap incidents. They are just trying to get under their skin as Ferrari has caught up.


You are not going to stop first lap incidents and this is not about stopping first lap incidents. IMO it's about trying to reduce Ferrari's over agressiveness at the starts. And you can tone down their agressiveness if harsher penalties are issued by the stewards. The silver cars got punted off track in 2 of the last 3 races. Obviously Merc hierarchy isn't going to be too happy about it and of course they are going to try to make a point about it in hope the stewards would lock down on it.

When is the last time Lewis hit someone at the start of a race? It's not overly difficult, you just tone down the agressiveness and keep it clean.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6287
Location: Nebraska, USA
kleefton wrote:

You are not going to stop first lap incidents and this is not about stopping first lap incidents. IMO it's about trying to reduce Ferrari's over agressiveness at the starts. And you can tone down their agressiveness if harsher penalties are issued by the stewards. The silver cars got punted off track in 2 of the last 3 races. Obviously Merc hierarchy isn't going to be too happy about it and of course they are going to try to make a point about it in hope the stewards would lock down on it.

When is the last time Lewis hit someone at the start of a race? It's not overly difficult, you just tone down the agressiveness and keep it clean.


Seriously???

You want to reduce Ferrari's over aggressiveness because of 2 incidents. And what of other first lap incidents... are you concerned about them too, or only when it affects Lewis? Do you think that it is only Ferrari drivers who have made errors on the opening lap? While we are at it why don't we just legislate all racing out of the sport too, so those Mercs won't be threatened. It might surprise you to know that Ferraris have been on the receiving end of such incidents as well, not that it makes any difference. Did you get so upset over those as well?

Those two incidents, apparently the only ones that bother you, are just that a couple of racing incidents... arguably punished, even if not enough to please you and some others.

As for the last time Lewis hit someone at the start of the race, it is a bit tougher to do when you are the front row and in a superior car for most of 4 years!!! As we know, things are more likely to happen behind you... or when you screw up a start and put yourself at risk like the other cars in the pack.

This is case of some making a mountain out of a mole hole... fed by Merc leadership apparently striving to put Ferrari on the defensive. It would appear that perhaps Mercedes is feeling real pressure for the first time in years.

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6622
Merc & Ham are but pulling an F1 "Neymar".


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23176
kleefton wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I don't think anyone in their right mind actually believes it was deliberate. Merc are intentionally exaggerating to make people take notice, realise it's a big deal and influence the people in power.

Hopefully the Ferrari drivers realise that the race isn't won in the first corner.


It was a message to Charlie and the stewards. Basically; you need to stop Ferrari hitting our cars. The way the message was delivered has riled up a lot of people.
What Hamilton said, he was still upset, probably at himself and at everybody, but he did apologize afterwards. So I think it is time to move on from this.


I'm sorry, this is absurd. How on earth are you going to stop first lap incidents? It is the tightest that an F1 race gets, 20 cars racing for that first few corners side by side. How are you going to stop them?

No, it wasn't a message to Charlie and the stewards, it was proper BS. There is no way to guarantee that there will be no first lap incidents. They are just trying to get under their skin as Ferrari has caught up.


You are not going to stop first lap incidents and this is not about stopping first lap incidents. IMO it's about trying to reduce Ferrari's over agressiveness at the starts. And you can tone down their agressiveness if harsher penalties are issued by the stewards. The silver cars got punted off track in 2 of the last 3 races. Obviously Merc hierarchy isn't going to be too happy about it and of course they are going to try to make a point about it in hope the stewards would lock down on it.

When is the last time Lewis hit someone at the start of a race? It's not overly difficult, you just tone down the agressiveness and keep it clean.

There have incidents with two different drivers in two different races. It's a bit early to start hitting the panic button just yet. And that's all this is from Mercedes and some forum members. It's just a knee-jerk reaction and not really necessary. None of these drivers wants to hit another and it will all sort itself out eventually


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3307
Blake wrote:
kleefton wrote:

You are not going to stop first lap incidents and this is not about stopping first lap incidents. IMO it's about trying to reduce Ferrari's over agressiveness at the starts. And you can tone down their agressiveness if harsher penalties are issued by the stewards. The silver cars got punted off track in 2 of the last 3 races. Obviously Merc hierarchy isn't going to be too happy about it and of course they are going to try to make a point about it in hope the stewards would lock down on it.

When is the last time Lewis hit someone at the start of a race? It's not overly difficult, you just tone down the agressiveness and keep it clean.


Seriously???

You want to reduce Ferrari's over aggressiveness because of 2 incidents. And what of other first lap incidents... are you concerned about them too, or only when it affects Lewis? Do you think that it is only Ferrari drivers who have made errors on the opening lap? While we are at it why don't we just legislate all racing out of the sport too, so those Mercs won't be threatened. It might surprise you to know that Ferraris have been on the receiving end of such incidents as well, not that it makes any difference. Did you get so upset over those as well?

Those two incidents, apparently the only ones that bother you, are just that a couple of racing incidents... arguably punished, even if not enough to please you and some others.

As for the last time Lewis hit someone at the start of the race, it is a bit tougher to do when you are the front row and in a superior car for most of 4 years!!! As we know, things are more likely to happen behind you... or when you screw up a start and put yourself at risk like the other cars in the pack.

This is case of some making a mountain out of a mole hole... fed by Merc leadership apparently striving to put Ferrari on the defensive. It would appear that perhaps Mercedes is feeling real pressure for the first time in years.


I am not concerned about anything or anyone. I am just trying to explain what Merc's point of view might be. All we know is that 2 red cars hit 2 silver cars at the last few races. So there is reason for them to be concerned. Vettel has not exactly been squeaky clean in this past year either. You can deny this all you want, but maybe there is a need to tone it down. Repeat offenders should get more punishment.

It's not always about defending Lewis. I couldn't care less to be honest. I thought he was wrong for what he said, but just reflecting on what Merc said.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3307
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I don't think anyone in their right mind actually believes it was deliberate. Merc are intentionally exaggerating to make people take notice, realise it's a big deal and influence the people in power.

Hopefully the Ferrari drivers realise that the race isn't won in the first corner.


It was a message to Charlie and the stewards. Basically; you need to stop Ferrari hitting our cars. The way the message was delivered has riled up a lot of people.
What Hamilton said, he was still upset, probably at himself and at everybody, but he did apologize afterwards. So I think it is time to move on from this.


I'm sorry, this is absurd. How on earth are you going to stop first lap incidents? It is the tightest that an F1 race gets, 20 cars racing for that first few corners side by side. How are you going to stop them?

No, it wasn't a message to Charlie and the stewards, it was proper BS. There is no way to guarantee that there will be no first lap incidents. They are just trying to get under their skin as Ferrari has caught up.


You are not going to stop first lap incidents and this is not about stopping first lap incidents. IMO it's about trying to reduce Ferrari's over agressiveness at the starts. And you can tone down their agressiveness if harsher penalties are issued by the stewards. The silver cars got punted off track in 2 of the last 3 races. Obviously Merc hierarchy isn't going to be too happy about it and of course they are going to try to make a point about it in hope the stewards would lock down on it.

When is the last time Lewis hit someone at the start of a race? It's not overly difficult, you just tone down the agressiveness and keep it clean.

There have incidents with two different drivers in two different races. It's a bit early to start hitting the panic button just yet. And that's all this is from Mercedes and some forum members. It's just a knee-jerk reaction and not really necessary. None of these drivers wants to hit another and it will all sort itself out eventually


I agree that none of them want to hit each other, but when you have a repeat offender in one of the cars and then his teammate joins the party, I can understand merc wanting to make a point.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6287
Location: Nebraska, USA
kleefton wrote:
Blake wrote:
kleefton wrote:

You are not going to stop first lap incidents and this is not about stopping first lap incidents. IMO it's about trying to reduce Ferrari's over agressiveness at the starts. And you can tone down their agressiveness if harsher penalties are issued by the stewards. The silver cars got punted off track in 2 of the last 3 races. Obviously Merc hierarchy isn't going to be too happy about it and of course they are going to try to make a point about it in hope the stewards would lock down on it.

When is the last time Lewis hit someone at the start of a race? It's not overly difficult, you just tone down the agressiveness and keep it clean.


Seriously???

You want to reduce Ferrari's over aggressiveness because of 2 incidents. And what of other first lap incidents... are you concerned about them too, or only when it affects Lewis? Do you think that it is only Ferrari drivers who have made errors on the opening lap? While we are at it why don't we just legislate all racing out of the sport too, so those Mercs won't be threatened. It might surprise you to know that Ferraris have been on the receiving end of such incidents as well, not that it makes any difference. Did you get so upset over those as well?

Those two incidents, apparently the only ones that bother you, are just that a couple of racing incidents... arguably punished, even if not enough to please you and some others.

As for the last time Lewis hit someone at the start of the race, it is a bit tougher to do when you are the front row and in a superior car for most of 4 years!!! As we know, things are more likely to happen behind you... or when you screw up a start and put yourself at risk like the other cars in the pack.

This is case of some making a mountain out of a mole hole... fed by Merc leadership apparently striving to put Ferrari on the defensive. It would appear that perhaps Mercedes is feeling real pressure for the first time in years.


I am not concerned about anything or anyone. I am just trying to explain what Merc's point of view might be. All we know is that 2 red cars hit 2 silver cars at the last few races. So there is reason for them to be concerned. Vettel has not exactly been squeaky clean in this past year either. You can deny this all you want, but maybe there is a need to tone it down. Repeat offenders should get more punishment.

It's not always about defending Lewis. I couldn't care less to be honest. I thought he was wrong for what he said, but just reflecting on what Merc said.


You are the one who brought Lewis into the discussion, not me. My point is valid though... you are less likely to be involved in first lap incidents when you start at the front of the field... so your example of Lewis needs to be taken with a grain of salt so-to-speak.

I think you are reading WAY too much into independent incidents by two different drivers. As been said by another poster, it is a knee jerk reaction by those partial to the team and driver on the receiving end of the last that happened this time. Had it been an incident involving Kimi and Max or Danny, nothing would have been said to this degree. Had Kimi made contact with any driver other than Lewis... and I include Bottas in the any other driver part, this would have been nothing more than just another racing incident with the vast majority of those crying so much about it right now... and to quote you..."you can deny this all you want".

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6287
Location: Nebraska, USA
kleefton wrote:

I agree that none of them want to hit each other, but when you have a repeat offender in one of the cars and then his teammate joins the party, I can understand merc wanting to make a point.


post deleted by Blake.
;)

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6622
kleefton wrote:
I agree that none of them want to hit each other, but when you have a repeat offender in one of the cars and then his teammate joins the party, I can understand merc wanting to make a point.


Now, this starts sounding more and more like an orgy. 8O


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:48 pm
Posts: 478
Zoue wrote:
yeah I think you're reaching there. He even admitted he said some dumb sh*t after Kimi apologized, so I think it's pretty clear what he meant

Maybe you're right, but he would have had to apologise either way. I don't think he's sorry in the slightest though to be honest, I know I wouldn't be. I bet that if it happens again, Merc will start again where they left of and probably double down on what they said.




Zoue wrote:
because they are not really voicing their concerns, they are lashing out in the heat of the moment.

No-one in their right mind would think there was any kind of deliberate action on behalf of the Ferrari drivers, so there's not a lot of concerns that may be addressed.

Well I said exactly the same thing further up, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be concerned. You can lash out and be concerned at the same time. The fact remains that Ferrari drivers hit Merc drivers two weeks apart. I don't care if it's deliberate or not, it happened. I'm hoping Mercs actions will help tame the Ferraris next race. Otherwise, if it happens again, there will be even more of an outrage and rightly so.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 11411
Ocon wrote:
I'm hoping Mercs actions will help tame the Ferraris next race. Otherwise, if it happens again, there will be even more of an outrage and rightly so.


Mercs "actions" will do nothing in preventing this to happen again. I don't know what's hard here to understand but once again, the risk-reward for this kind of things is simply not positive. Vettel hit Bottas in France, his race was ruined and he lost points. That's his deterrent right there. Not Hamilton and/or Mercedes floating some pretty stupid thoughts on it.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:48 pm
Posts: 478
Blake wrote:

You are the one who brought Lewis into the discussion, not me. My point is valid though... you are less likely to be involved in first lap incidents when you start at the front of the field... so your example of Lewis needs to be taken with a grain of salt so-to-speak.

I think you are reading WAY too much into independent incidents by two different drivers. As been said by another poster, it is a knee jerk reaction by those partial to the team and driver on the receiving end of the last that happened this time. Had it been an incident involving Kimi and Max or Danny, nothing would have been said to this degree. Had Kimi made contact with any driver other than Lewis... and I include Bottas in the any other driver part, this would have been nothing more than just another racing incident with the vast majority of those crying so much about it right now... and to quote you..."you can deny this all you want".


Why would people be outraged about other drivers being hit? They're not in the title race. Surely it's understandable why people are reacting this way. The title contenders have a much larger amount of fans than the others so of course there is more outrage compared to them.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:48 pm
Posts: 478
mds wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I'm hoping Mercs actions will help tame the Ferraris next race. Otherwise, if it happens again, there will be even more of an outrage and rightly so.


Mercs "actions" will do nothing in preventing this to happen again. I don't know what's hard here to understand but once again, the risk-reward for this kind of things is simply not positive. Vettel hit Bottas in France, his race was ruined and he lost points. That's his deterrent right there. Not Hamilton and/or Mercedes floating some pretty stupid thoughts on it.

That doesn't apply if the nr2 driver is taking out one of Vettel or Hamilton though. That's the main concern last time vs when Bottas was hit, that's probably why Kimi got a harsher penalty and why there was more outrage.


Last edited by Ocon on Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23176
Ocon wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah I think you're reaching there. He even admitted he said some dumb sh*t after Kimi apologized, so I think it's pretty clear what he meant

Maybe you're right, but he would have had to apologise either way. I don't think he's sorry in the slightest though to be honest, I know I wouldn't be. I bet that if it happens again, Merc will start again where they left of and probably double down on what they said.




Zoue wrote:
because they are not really voicing their concerns, they are lashing out in the heat of the moment.

No-one in their right mind would think there was any kind of deliberate action on behalf of the Ferrari drivers, so there's not a lot of concerns that may be addressed.

Well I said exactly the same thing further up, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be concerned. You can lash out and be concerned at the same time. The fact remains that Ferrari drivers hit Merc drivers two weeks apart. I don't care if it's deliberate or not, it happened. I'm hoping Mercs actions will help tame the Ferraris next race. Otherwise, if it happens again, there will be even more of an outrage and rightly so.

And if they did, then it would make Merc look even more stupid than they do now. Fact is it was an accident. Accidents happen. Throwing their toys out of the pram doesn't help things and just makes them look foolish and immature.

I doubt Merc's actions will have any bearing on either Ferrari driver's actions in the next race. Neither wants to come together with another driver and that's the only thing that will and should concern them, not whether Mercedes' noses have been put out of joint. They will hopefully still race hard and try to win.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23176
Ocon wrote:
mds wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I'm hoping Mercs actions will help tame the Ferraris next race. Otherwise, if it happens again, there will be even more of an outrage and rightly so.


Mercs "actions" will do nothing in preventing this to happen again. I don't know what's hard here to understand but once again, the risk-reward for this kind of things is simply not positive. Vettel hit Bottas in France, his race was ruined and he lost points. That's his deterrent right there. Not Hamilton and/or Mercedes floating some pretty stupid thoughts on it.

That doesn't apply if the nr2 driver is taking out one of Vettel or Hamilton though. That's the main concern last time vs when Bottas was hit, and that's probably why Kimi got a harsher penalty.

I don't recall Mercedes wringing their hands or taking sanctions against Bottas when he hit Kimi back in Baku last year. Or should it only apply when Mercedes are the victims? And it's already been pointed out to you that you cannot have a different set of rules for front runners. That just opens a whole can of worms regarding definitions, not to mention unwarranted favouritism. There is no scenario where front runners are treated differently to the rest of the drivers that makes F1 look good.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:48 pm
Posts: 478
Zoue wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah I think you're reaching there. He even admitted he said some dumb sh*t after Kimi apologized, so I think it's pretty clear what he meant

Maybe you're right, but he would have had to apologise either way. I don't think he's sorry in the slightest though to be honest, I know I wouldn't be. I bet that if it happens again, Merc will start again where they left of and probably double down on what they said.




Zoue wrote:
because they are not really voicing their concerns, they are lashing out in the heat of the moment.

No-one in their right mind would think there was any kind of deliberate action on behalf of the Ferrari drivers, so there's not a lot of concerns that may be addressed.

Well I said exactly the same thing further up, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be concerned. You can lash out and be concerned at the same time. The fact remains that Ferrari drivers hit Merc drivers two weeks apart. I don't care if it's deliberate or not, it happened. I'm hoping Mercs actions will help tame the Ferraris next race. Otherwise, if it happens again, there will be even more of an outrage and rightly so.

And if they did, then it would make Merc look even more stupid than they do now. Fact is it was an accident. Accidents happen. Throwing their toys out of the pram doesn't help things and just makes them look foolish and immature.

I doubt Merc's actions will have any bearing on either Ferrari driver's actions in the next race. Neither wants to come together with another driver and that's the only thing that will and should concern them, not whether Mercedes' noses have been put out of joint. They will hopefully still race hard and try to win.

I don't know, we'll se what happens if it in fact does happens again. I think my scenario is likely. Yes it was an accident but don't you think the Ferrari drivers will be a little more careful at the start next time because of what happened? Surely it's only natural to take some extra care after you hit the opposing team two last races.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm
Posts: 7216
Ocon wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah I think you're reaching there. He even admitted he said some dumb sh*t after Kimi apologized, so I think it's pretty clear what he meant

Maybe you're right, but he would have had to apologise either way. I don't think he's sorry in the slightest though to be honest, I know I wouldn't be. I bet that if it happens again, Merc will start again where they left of and probably double down on what they said.




Zoue wrote:
because they are not really voicing their concerns, they are lashing out in the heat of the moment.

No-one in their right mind would think there was any kind of deliberate action on behalf of the Ferrari drivers, so there's not a lot of concerns that may be addressed.

Well I said exactly the same thing further up, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be concerned. You can lash out and be concerned at the same time. The fact remains that Ferrari drivers hit Merc drivers two weeks apart. I don't care if it's deliberate or not, it happened. I'm hoping Mercs actions will help tame the Ferraris next race. Otherwise, if it happens again, there will be even more of an outrage and rightly so.

And if they did, then it would make Merc look even more stupid than they do now. Fact is it was an accident. Accidents happen. Throwing their toys out of the pram doesn't help things and just makes them look foolish and immature.

I doubt Merc's actions will have any bearing on either Ferrari driver's actions in the next race. Neither wants to come together with another driver and that's the only thing that will and should concern them, not whether Mercedes' noses have been put out of joint. They will hopefully still race hard and try to win.

I don't know, we'll se what happens if it in fact does happens again. I think my scenario is likely. Yes it was an accident but don't you think the Ferrari drivers will be a little more careful at the start next time because of what happened? Surely it's only natural to take some extra care after you hit the opposing team two last races.

I doubt it, Mercedes and Ferrari drivers know that the first lap is their best shot at making a pass. They will give it everything as always because contrary to the old saying you very much can win a race at the first corner, often its the only chance you have in F1.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23176
Ocon wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Ocon wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah I think you're reaching there. He even admitted he said some dumb sh*t after Kimi apologized, so I think it's pretty clear what he meant

Maybe you're right, but he would have had to apologise either way. I don't think he's sorry in the slightest though to be honest, I know I wouldn't be. I bet that if it happens again, Merc will start again where they left of and probably double down on what they said.




Zoue wrote:
because they are not really voicing their concerns, they are lashing out in the heat of the moment.

No-one in their right mind would think there was any kind of deliberate action on behalf of the Ferrari drivers, so there's not a lot of concerns that may be addressed.

Well I said exactly the same thing further up, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be concerned. You can lash out and be concerned at the same time. The fact remains that Ferrari drivers hit Merc drivers two weeks apart. I don't care if it's deliberate or not, it happened. I'm hoping Mercs actions will help tame the Ferraris next race. Otherwise, if it happens again, there will be even more of an outrage and rightly so.

And if they did, then it would make Merc look even more stupid than they do now. Fact is it was an accident. Accidents happen. Throwing their toys out of the pram doesn't help things and just makes them look foolish and immature.

I doubt Merc's actions will have any bearing on either Ferrari driver's actions in the next race. Neither wants to come together with another driver and that's the only thing that will and should concern them, not whether Mercedes' noses have been put out of joint. They will hopefully still race hard and try to win.

I don't know, we'll se what happens if it in fact does happens again. I think my scenario is likely. Yes it was an accident but don't you think the Ferrari drivers will be a little more careful at the start next time because of what happened? Surely it's only natural to take some extra care after you hit the opposing team two last races.

I think they will take care because they won't want to ruin their own races. Vettel is fighting for the title: do you seriously think he's happy to be playing dodgems and potentially throwing away points? And do you then think that his motivator in not doing so would be not to upset Mercedes, rather than protect his own WDC position?

Mercedes throwing out unwarranted accusations will likely just have had the effect of angering those at Ferrari, rather than make them sympathetic to Mercedes' situation. I don't see any way in which that would encourage the Ferrari drivers to take more care.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 11411
Ocon wrote:
but don't you think the Ferrari drivers will be a little more careful at the start next time because of what happened?


Nope. They didn't want to ruin their own races before and they won't want to do it in the future either. Level of carefulness = same.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:48 pm
Posts: 478
Zoue wrote:
Ocon wrote:
mds wrote:
Ocon wrote:
I'm hoping Mercs actions will help tame the Ferraris next race. Otherwise, if it happens again, there will be even more of an outrage and rightly so.


Mercs "actions" will do nothing in preventing this to happen again. I don't know what's hard here to understand but once again, the risk-reward for this kind of things is simply not positive. Vettel hit Bottas in France, his race was ruined and he lost points. That's his deterrent right there. Not Hamilton and/or Mercedes floating some pretty stupid thoughts on it.

That doesn't apply if the nr2 driver is taking out one of Vettel or Hamilton though. That's the main concern last time vs when Bottas was hit, and that's probably why Kimi got a harsher penalty.

I don't recall Mercedes wringing their hands or taking sanctions against Bottas when he hit Kimi back in Baku last year. Or should it only apply when Mercedes are the victims? And it's already been pointed out to you that you cannot have a different set of rules for front runners. That just opens a whole can of worms regarding definitions, not to mention unwarranted favouritism. There is no scenario where front runners are treated differently to the rest of the drivers that makes F1 look good.

There are no rules that help the front runners but there is common sense. How about when other drivers have to move over to let the leaders by even when they're racing each other for points? Clearly that's favoring the leaders.

By the way, I wasn't even talking about this in my posts. Just trying to explain to some people why I think Mercedes reacted the way they did.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:48 pm
Posts: 478
Yeah I know they don't want to ruin their own races. But given how Kimi has been treated, I doubt Ferrari care as much about ruining his race compared to Vettels.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6255
We're going on a circle again. No driver risks taking their opponents out as a solid strategy. It has happened in the past in red mist in the final race or so, yes. But a strategy? Not in a million years a driver will risk damage to his car and a penalty (let alone amassing driver license points) to take off a few points from a race.

And take it easy in the beginning of the race? Are we serious here? "After you, no please, you qualified ahead of me sir, I insist...". Both times the red cars were somewhat boxed, this happens and will happen again and again. They are just first lap incidents.

Also, it's not in the last two races, but in the last three. It's not that it happens in every single race.

I guess Totto's strategy worked well, we are still talking about this non-issue weeks after.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], mcdo, owenmahamilton and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group