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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:53 pm 
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Ferrari had to stretch the first stint in China to be able to 1 stop, its why they left Vettel out posting poor times on clearly shot tyre. Mercedes with superior tyre life, especially on the medium and were able to force there had and make them cover them. Even if Bottas didn't undercut Vettel he was in a good position to attack him at the end with better tyres.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Bottas is likely the de-facto number 2 in his new contract. He got his contract renewed the day after Lewis got his contract renewed. Bottas is also not allowed to challenge Hamilton even when he has fresher tyres.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:55 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Bottas is likely the de-facto number 2 in his new contract. He got his contract renewed the day after Lewis got his contract renewed. Bottas is also not allowed to challenge Hamilton even when he has fresher tyres.


Do you not think after what happened in Austria and finding themselves in a 1-2 situation in Germany which I'm sure many did not expect it was just easier to bring the cars home?

Everyone knows Kimi and Bottas are number 2 anyway, it's not like we need confirmation.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:15 pm 
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Kimi on his fifth straight podium....two stop strategy, slow first pit stop and still managed to overtake Bottas...
Bottas - from hero to zero in two laps...


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:18 pm 
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greatestF1mindever wrote:
Kimi on his fifth straight podium....two stop strategy, slow first pit stop and still managed to overtake Bottas...
Bottas - from hero to zero in two laps...


Kimi had a faster car and faster strategy TBF.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:26 pm 
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Still maintain Kimi is the better driver, today proved that, as Bottas is not going to be on any teams radar after Mercedes.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:33 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Still maintain Kimi is the better driver, today proved that, as Bottas is not going to be on any teams radar after Mercedes.


Bottas was the better driver after Silverstone though :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:45 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Still maintain Kimi is the better driver, today proved that, as Bottas is not going to be on any teams radar after Mercedes.


Bottas was the better driver after Silverstone though :lol:


It's not a race by race basis, Raikkonen is at the end of his career, Bottas is going to the prime of his.

No team out there will look at him as a team leader in future.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:48 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Still maintain Kimi is the better driver, today proved that, as Bottas is not going to be on any teams radar after Mercedes.


Bottas was the better driver after Silverstone though :lol:


It's not a race by race basis, Raikkonen is at the end of his career, Bottas is going to the prime of his.

No team out there will look at him as a team leader in future.


Bottas is the better driver at the moment. Kimi's peak was higher but that's over a decade ago now.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:59 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Still maintain Kimi is the better driver, today proved that, as Bottas is not going to be on any teams radar after Mercedes.


Bottas was the better driver after Silverstone though :lol:


It's not a race by race basis, Raikkonen is at the end of his career, Bottas is going to the prime of his.

No team out there will look at him as a team leader in future.

You are not in charge of teams. You don't know for certain if they won't do this. You can say it is very unlikely if you like, but you can't know what certainly will or won't happen. I myself think it is very unlikely, but I never say that certain things will happen, as we are not the teams!.
Given Bottas has certainly looked better this year than the last, there is still a chance he could repeat this again next year and be better still.

Your first statement saying Kimi is the better driver is pointless at the moment. You can say Bottas was the better driver many many years ago than Bottas currently is. But now, Bottas is clearly a level above him. This race could have gone differently if Bottas had done the identical strategy as Kimi did. Kimi's 2nd stop clearly did help him out when comparing his race to Bottas's. His race was better than Bottas's today, but we can't conclude kimi is the better driver based on today at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:04 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Still maintain Kimi is the better driver, today proved that, as Bottas is not going to be on any teams radar after Mercedes.


Bottas was the better driver after Silverstone though :lol:


It's not a race by race basis, Raikkonen is at the end of his career, Bottas is going to the prime of his.

No team out there will look at him as a team leader in future.

You are not in charge of teams. You don't know for certain if they won't do this. You can say it is very unlikely if you like, but you can't know what certainly will or won't happen. I myself think it is very unlikely, but I never say that certain things will happen, as we are not the teams!.
Given Bottas has certainly looked better this year than the last, there is still a chance he could repeat this again next year and be better still.

Your first statement saying Kimi is the better driver is pointless at the moment. You can say Bottas was the better driver many many years ago than Bottas currently is. But now, Bottas is clearly a level above him. This race could have gone differently if Bottas had done the identical strategy as Kimi did. Kimi's 2nd stop clearly did help him out when comparing his race to Bottas's. His race was better than Bottas's today, but we can't conclude kimi is the better driver based on today at all.


When I gave my opinion, I didn't realise I had to own a team to give it.

Also at this stage in his career he has not shown anything that makes me look at him and think he's going to be a WDC in future with the talent in the field right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:42 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Still maintain Kimi is the better driver, today proved that, as Bottas is not going to be on any teams radar after Mercedes.


Bottas was the better driver after Silverstone though :lol:


It's not a race by race basis, Raikkonen is at the end of his career, Bottas is going to the prime of his.

No team out there will look at him as a team leader in future.

You are not in charge of teams. You don't know for certain if they won't do this. You can say it is very unlikely if you like, but you can't know what certainly will or won't happen. I myself think it is very unlikely, but I never say that certain things will happen, as we are not the teams!.
Given Bottas has certainly looked better this year than the last, there is still a chance he could repeat this again next year and be better still.

Your first statement saying Kimi is the better driver is pointless at the moment. You can say Bottas was the better driver many many years ago than Bottas currently is. But now, Bottas is clearly a level above him. This race could have gone differently if Bottas had done the identical strategy as Kimi did. Kimi's 2nd stop clearly did help him out when comparing his race to Bottas's. His race was better than Bottas's today, but we can't conclude kimi is the better driver based on today at all.


When I gave my opinion, I didn't realise I had to own a team to give it.

Also at this stage in his career he has not shown anything that makes me look at him and think he's going to be a WDC in future with the talent in the field right now.

Nothing wrong with having an opinion, it is just it sometimes looks like you are stating facts that are 100% certain. An opinion for your sentence regarding teams looking out for Bottas would surely be more like. "I very much doubt that any other team will look at him as a team leader in the future" Rather than making it seem like a fact that has already been confirmed.

I'm not telling you how to write things, I'm just saying that as they look like they do, that is why I commented in the way i did.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:56 pm 
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Bottas hasn’t shown enough to be a team leader. I could not see Bottas beating Vettel to this title or any title were the cars are this close.

Bottas head to head with Vettel is 7-2 in Vettels favours. Hamiltons with Vettel is 5-5. If the packages are equal, Vettel will beat him over a season quite comfortably.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:40 pm 
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Recent performances continue to convince me that these two drivers are very close indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Recent performances continue to convince me that these two drivers are very close indeed.

Well...recent performances indicate Kimi is clearly in another class...


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:11 pm 
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greatestF1mindever wrote:
Invade wrote:
Recent performances continue to convince me that these two drivers are very close indeed.

Well...recent performances indicate Kimi is clearly in another class...


Bit of an odd comment. If you are saying recent performences indicate that he IS better, there have been the last 2 weekends and this qualifying. If that is enough to indicate that he's in a different class to Bottas (in terms of being better), then I don't understand. Throughout almost all of the other races, Bottas has looked better than Kimi. several times when Kimi qualified in front, Bottas instantly got past. Both have had very bad luck, but Kimi has benefited due to others misfortune significantly more than Bottas. Otherwise, Bottas would certainly be ahead in the championship.

Despite Bottas making a few mistakes recently and being a bit off the pace here in Italy, I still think that he's overall been a fair bit better than Kimi this year. I think there are around 5 or 6 people on this forum that will disagree based on the comments i see from them, but I think the majority will say Bottas is better at this stage. Too much gets based on recent occurrences.

That said, I am impressed with Kimi today and I think Ferrari should keep him for next year.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:16 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
greatestF1mindever wrote:
Invade wrote:
Recent performances continue to convince me that these two drivers are very close indeed.

Well...recent performances indicate Kimi is clearly in another class...


Bit of an odd comment. If you are saying recent performences indicate that he IS better, there have been the last 2 weekends and this qualifying. If that is enough to indicate that he's in a different class to Bottas (in terms of being better), then I don't understand. Throughout almost all of the other races, Bottas has looked better than Kimi. several times when Kimi qualified in front, Bottas instantly got past. Both have had very bad luck, but Kimi has benefited due to others misfortune significantly more than Bottas. Otherwise, Bottas would certainly be ahead in the championship.

Despite Bottas making a few mistakes recently and being a bit off the pace here in Italy, I still think that he's overall been a fair bit better than Kimi this year. I think there are around 5 or 6 people on this forum that will disagree based on the comments i see from them, but I think the majority will say Bottas is better at this stage. Too much gets based on recent occurrences.

That said, I am impressed with Kimi today and I think Ferrari should keep him for next year.

I have to agree with you here. It's extremely short-sighted and unfair to say that Kimi is better than Bottas based solely on the last few races while ignoring that Bottas has easily been better for the last few YEARS. Raikkonen does seem to have his act together of late and I'm glad to see it but let's not lose perspective. Bottas is still beating him in the points despite having worse luck and a slower car on the season. And this is easily Raikkonen's best season since his return to Ferrari.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Would have to agree that Kimi's not shown himself to be in another class to Bottas. I'd say Bottas has been quite unlucky this year, although he hasn't looked comfortable at Monza all weekend so far.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:55 pm 
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Bottas started the day three points behind Raikkonen. VB-171 to KR-174. Valtteri ended up the day three points ahead of Kimi. VB-189 to KR-186.

Seems to me that Mercedes needs to start supporting Valtteri to beat Kimi for third in the drivers championship.

This battle has not received much of any attention in the racing press but it's a lot closer than the Lewis-Sebastian battle.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:12 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Bottas started the day three points behind Raikkonen. VB-171 to KR-174. Valtteri ended up the day three points ahead of Kimi. VB-189 to KR-186.

Seems to me that Mercedes needs to start supporting Valtteri to beat Kimi for third in the drivers championship.

This battle has not received much of any attention in the racing press but it's a lot closer than the Lewis-Sebastian battle.

3rd is a nice to have, but nowhere near as important at 1st. Mercedes did the right thing yesterday from a team perspective. We've seen before how DNFs can wreak havoc on a title challenge, so it makes perfect sense for them to focus on the WDC until it's mathematically impossible to lose it. Only then can they realistically focus on Bottas


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:51 am 
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Well Bottas came back strong in Sochi, outperforming his team-mate over the weekend and showing he had enough performance to likely win the race. I can't remember when Kimi last showed true race-winning pace (anyone?).


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:18 am 
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Invade wrote:
Well Bottas came back strong in Sochi, outperforming his team-mate over the weekend and showing he had enough performance to likely win the race. I can't remember when Kimi last showed true race-winning pace (anyone?).

I would say Monza. Without Mercedes team game Kimi would have won that one easily.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:49 am 
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Was Raikkonen even in the race yesterday?


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:59 am 
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froze wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well Bottas came back strong in Sochi, outperforming his team-mate over the weekend and showing he had enough performance to likely win the race. I can't remember when Kimi last showed true race-winning pace (anyone?).

I would say Monza. Without Mercedes team game Kimi would have won that one easily.

I don't agree with that at all. I think he would have lost regardless of what Bottas did. Hamilton hung on to the back of him with ease and had much fresher tires due to stopping much later. I think the period where Raikkonen ran behind Bottas did help Lewis but I doubt he needed it there.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:28 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
froze wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well Bottas came back strong in Sochi, outperforming his team-mate over the weekend and showing he had enough performance to likely win the race. I can't remember when Kimi last showed true race-winning pace (anyone?).

I would say Monza. Without Mercedes team game Kimi would have won that one easily.

I don't agree with that at all. I think he would have lost regardless of what Bottas did. Hamilton hung on to the back of him with ease and had much fresher tires due to stopping much later. I think the period where Raikkonen ran behind Bottas did help Lewis but I doubt he needed it there.

Agreed! If Kimi had won Monza, it would have been by the skin of his teeth. His tires were more used up and Lewis would have had every chance of getting by even without Valtteri backing him up to Lewis.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
froze wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well Bottas came back strong in Sochi, outperforming his team-mate over the weekend and showing he had enough performance to likely win the race. I can't remember when Kimi last showed true race-winning pace (anyone?).

I would say Monza. Without Mercedes team game Kimi would have won that one easily.

I don't agree with that at all. I think he would have lost regardless of what Bottas did. Hamilton hung on to the back of him with ease and had much fresher tires due to stopping much later. I think the period where Raikkonen ran behind Bottas did help Lewis but I doubt he needed it there.

Agreed! If Kimi had won Monza, it would have been by the skin of his teeth. His tires were more used up and Lewis would have had every chance of getting by even without Valtteri backing him up to Lewis.


Kimi should have won in Monza, Ferrari made the mistakes initially asking Kimi to drive too hard and too long on a heavier fuel load, being stuck behind Bottas just damaged the tyres even more. Vettel managed 27 laps (admittedly some laps under SC) on a heavier fuel load, fighting other cars and driving a damaged car.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:14 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
Was Raikkonen even in the race yesterday?


Tbf, he ran the race at a very similar pace to the leaders put had a worse strategy.

He was 4.5 seconds behind Vettel when Vettel pitted. They left Kimi out (probably hoping for a SC that would bring him the win) and he then emerged from his stop 10 seconds behind Vettel. Over the next 20 laps he closed that to 5.8 seconds and before Kimi slowed down for the last 2-3 laps was only 6.5 seconds behind Vettel.

This is what I would call a good level of performance from Kimi. They guy is 38, he was about 0.1 off Vettels race pace.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:32 am 
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Invade wrote:
Well Bottas came back strong in Sochi, outperforming his team-mate over the weekend and showing he had enough performance to likely win the race. I can't remember when Kimi last showed true race-winning pace (anyone?).

I thought that he should have won Monaco 2017. He looked disappointed in a similar way there to Bottas yesterday. Ferrari looked like they did something with the strategy to let Vettel win. I don't think he was better than Kimi there.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:33 pm 
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Bottas has looked capable of winning a race on three occasions this season but has been unlucky twice and moved over once. Kimi has looked liked he could win once but was outraced.

That's the difference between them IMO. Kimi has had a race winning car for the last three seasons and very rarely looked like pulling off a win.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:56 pm 
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After Suzuka Valtteri is 11 pts up on Kimi and 57 points adrift from Sebastian. .

If Lewis cools his heels after clinching the championship Valtteri could have a run at Sebastian. If Sebastian cooperates and continues to shoot himself in the foot this may be within reach. Lewis also seems to think he owes Valtteri a win after Sochi. Valtteri could close the gap with help from Lewis and Toto.

Sebastian has dropped 50 points from Lewis in the last four races since Belgium. One more bad weekend and Vettel is vulnerable to Bottas.

I kind of hope that Mercedes consider a 1-2 placing in the WDC worth pursuing.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:05 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
After Suzuka Valtteri is 11 pts up on Kimi and 57 points adrift from Sebastian. .

If Lewis cools his heels after clinching the championship Valtteri could have a run at Sebastian. If Sebastian cooperates and continues to shoot himself in the foot this may be within reach. Lewis also seems to think he owes Valtteri a win after Sochi. Valtteri could close the gap with help from Lewis and Toto.

Sebastian has dropped 50 points from Lewis in the last four races since Belgium. One more bad weekend and Vettel is vulnerable to Bottas.

I kind of hope that Mercedes consider a 1-2 placing in the WDC worth pursuing.

Since the British GP Lewis has won 6 of 7 races and has outscored Vettel by 75 points. It has been an epic collapse. I don't htink Valteri is going to catch him though. Vettel is bound to get it together at some point. One more Vettel win and Valteri can forget about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:10 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
After Suzuka Valtteri is 11 pts up on Kimi and 57 points adrift from Sebastian. .

If Lewis cools his heels after clinching the championship Valtteri could have a run at Sebastian. If Sebastian cooperates and continues to shoot himself in the foot this may be within reach. Lewis also seems to think he owes Valtteri a win after Sochi. Valtteri could close the gap with help from Lewis and Toto.

Sebastian has dropped 50 points from Lewis in the last four races since Belgium. One more bad weekend and Vettel is vulnerable to Bottas.

I kind of hope that Mercedes consider a 1-2 placing in the WDC worth pursuing.

Since the British GP Lewis has won 6 of 7 races and has outscored Vettel by 75 points. It has been an epic collapse. I don't htink Valteri is going to catch him though. Vettel is bound to get it together at some point. One more Vettel win and Valteri can forget about it.


I did say that Valtteri would need some help from Lewis, Toto and also need a continued collapse from Sebastian. Not likely but not out of the range of possibilities.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:51 am 
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With his win in Austin Kimi has retaken third place in the WDC points.

Kimi - 221 & Valtteri - 217

Will be interesting to see how these two finish out the season.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:07 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
I did say that Valtteri would need some help from Lewis, Toto and also need a continued collapse from Sebastian. Not likely but not out of the range of possibilities.

He's getting the last one, but it still wasn't enough. Vettel beat him despite spinning in Austin - not a good look for Bottas...

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:28 am 
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I do think Bottas is starting to show that he often underperforms more when he's not within a chance of a win. And I also think being as low as he is in the championship hurts him a bit. I still think the boost he will have got by being in the lead of the drivers championship in Azerbaijan will have boosted his confidence a huge amount. I just think he needs to perform that well now. I still think he's having a better 2nd half than last year. He looked strong in Russia at least. And when comparing Bottas and Kimi, I just don't think Bottas has benifited from others misfortune much at all this year. Where as Kimi has got many of his points back that he lost due to bad luck this way. Such as in Baku. and a few other races. Vettel and others messing up allowing him to get more points. Kimi and Bottas certainly have been close this year, but Bottas was far better in the first half and overall, I would say Kimi has only been slightly better in this half of the season so far.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:19 am 
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Hard to tell what it does to Bottas to be compared to Raikkonen who doesn't need to move over all the time.
Looks like Merc will end the season very conservative and that will play in Kimis favor to.

IMO Bottas should at this point in his career and material be in a better position than he is but the #2 and Merc politics doesn't give him any favors.


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