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 Post subject: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:45 am 
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Put them both in the same car this year. Who would come out on top? And by how much?

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:05 am 
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Depends on who stays in the same car. If Bottas, then Kimi comes out on top with Bottas' ridiculous luck :)

But I know you question is performance-related. I think Bottas has been doing very well since Australia, getting closer to Hamilton than Kimi to Vettel - and I think Hamilton and Vettel haven't been too far apart.

So Bottas.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:22 am 
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Bottas > Kimi.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:40 am 
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Kimi did well these last couple of races but I'm still of the opinion that his race pace is generally inconsistent. He can hammer in fast laps when he needs to, as evidenced yesterday when chasing at the end, but for some reason his "normal" pace falls short. The only explanation I can think of is he struggles with the tyres, keeping them in the right window, because otherwise I'm mightily confused as to why he can be on it in qualifying and parts of the race, and so-so the rest of the time. He's a conundrum wrapped in a mystery. I suspect if we still had Michelins then he'd still be super-quick, but we don't! Maybe he should try his hand at WEC?

So in summary, I'd pick Bottas to come out on top, largely because I think he would have better race pace than Kimi


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:20 am 
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Everything points to Bottas being better than Kimi

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:26 am 
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Not sure if they fit in the same car but if they do, I suppose whoever goes there last has to eventually come out first.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Back in the day I think that Kimi was a better driver than Valtteri is now. I also don't think that he is any more.

I can't say whether it's an age related conservativism or a simple lack of enthusiasm from having nothing left to prove. Of course it's a long running joke that Kimi has never shown any real evidence of enthusiasm. His expression when winning a race is the same as when he has just crashed out.

Kimi's physical condition and endurance may not be as good as it once was but he doesn't seem the worse for wear when he gets out of the car.

Valtteri does still have quite a bit to prove and is in the best position of his career to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:12 pm 
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I expect Bottas to a win a race sooner or later this year. I don't see Kimi doing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:16 pm 
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I'd take Bottas over Räikkönen every day of the week.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:44 pm 
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I think its clearly Bottas now, hard to make any kind of case its Kimi.

A more interesting question might be, how would Massa be doing in this Ferrari the last 2 years? He is nearly 2 years younger than Kimi too. I think Massa would have at least won a race.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:01 pm 
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froze wrote:
Not sure if they fit in the same car but if they do, I suppose whoever goes there last has to eventually come out first.

Yeah it'd be close but the last man in would probably come out on top.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:06 pm 
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The fact Kimi at the tail end of his career is being compared to Bottas tells you all you need to know about Bottas.

Had it not been for Mclaren and Mercedes reliability, Kimi would be a 3x champion.

Bottas does not look like a consistent race winner let alone WDC.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
The fact Kimi at the tail end of his career is being compared to Bottas tells you all you need to know about Bottas.

Had it not been for Mclaren and Mercedes reliability, Kimi would be a 3x champion.

Bottas does not look like a consistent race winner let alone WDC.


They are being compared because they are both number 2 in the top 2 teams.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:26 pm 
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Bottas is very underrated. Kimi has also had 2 DNF this year. They both are doing excellent job.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:33 pm 
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Kimi for me, he has had problems too and not of his own making


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:03 pm 
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Depends wether or not its near to Kimi's contract renewal time :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:43 pm 
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Every season that Kimi drags out his career tarnishes his legacy. He's had his moments against Alonso and then Vettel. But moments are all they have been. Time to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:56 pm 
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Bottas has done well this year, but unsure how much that is down to Hamilton being sub-par for more races than you'd normally expect. When Hamilton is on it, he comfortably beats Bottas.

That said, if Bottas had luck, he could be leading the championship.

I think peak vs peak, Raikkonen is the winner but.... Bottas is currently the better driver. That said, the are my #5 and #6 rated drivers in the 6 'prime' seats available, and by a margin.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:29 pm 
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100% Kimi.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:35 pm 
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Bottas is currently quite a but better than Kimi as an all round driver. He's way better at racing, doesn't make mistakes in almost every quali and has almost been on Hamilton's pace.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:30 pm 
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Today, in the same car, depends on the car. I would put my money on Bottas though.

That said, I think that if Kimi were 10 years younger and the same age as Valtteri, I would pick Kimi in that duel.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:35 pm 
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They're both driving pretty well this year, really. I'd have to say that at this point in their careers I'd take Bottas, but if Kimi was 10 years younger it'd be him any day.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:39 pm 
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I don't even have Bottas as the superior performer to Kimi on my 2018 spreadsheets for what little it's worth.

Not sure who has been the better of the two this year and have found Bottas' performance this season to actually be generally overrated across forums and on F1 Discord and Reddit. He's been solid, but allowances made for him regarding luck (while not taking into account that of others) has been rife across the interwebz.

Hamilton and Vettel have both been very obviously superior to either Bottas or Kimi this season.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:42 pm 
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Invade wrote:
I don't even have Bottas as the superior performer to Kimi on my 2018 spreadsheets for what little it's worth.

Not sure who has been the better of the two this year and have found Bottas' performance this season to actually be generally overrated across forums and on F1 Discord and Reddit. He's been solid, but allowances made for him regarding luck (while not taking into account that of others) has been rife across the interwebz.

Hamilton and Vettel have both been very obviously superior to either Bottas or Kimi this season.


Hamilton has only been slightly superior to Bottas all round.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:48 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
I don't even have Bottas as the superior performer to Kimi on my 2018 spreadsheets for what little it's worth.

Not sure who has been the better of the two this year and have found Bottas' performance this season to actually be generally overrated across forums and on F1 Discord and Reddit. He's been solid, but allowances made for him regarding luck (while not taking into account that of others) has been rife across the interwebz.

Hamilton and Vettel have both been very obviously superior to either Bottas or Kimi this season.


Hamilton has only been slightly superior to Bottas all round.



Yeah I disagree, with my sheets having Hamilton slightly behind Vettel and Ricciardo on season average, after which there's a sizeable gap to Bottas who roughly equals Kimi and Verstappen. Max is still hurt by several poor early season performances.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:50 pm 
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Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
I don't even have Bottas as the superior performer to Kimi on my 2018 spreadsheets for what little it's worth.

Not sure who has been the better of the two this year and have found Bottas' performance this season to actually be generally overrated across forums and on F1 Discord and Reddit. He's been solid, but allowances made for him regarding luck (while not taking into account that of others) has been rife across the interwebz.

Hamilton and Vettel have both been very obviously superior to either Bottas or Kimi this season.


Hamilton has only been slightly superior to Bottas all round.



Yeah I disagree, with my sheets having Hamilton slightly behind Vettel and Ricciardo on season average, after which there's a sizeable gap to Bottas who roughly equals Kimi and Verstappen. Max is still hurt by several poor early season performances.


On what criteria are you judging?


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:56 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
I don't even have Bottas as the superior performer to Kimi on my 2018 spreadsheets for what little it's worth.

Not sure who has been the better of the two this year and have found Bottas' performance this season to actually be generally overrated across forums and on F1 Discord and Reddit. He's been solid, but allowances made for him regarding luck (while not taking into account that of others) has been rife across the interwebz.

Hamilton and Vettel have both been very obviously superior to either Bottas or Kimi this season.


Hamilton has only been slightly superior to Bottas all round.



Yeah I disagree, with my sheets having Hamilton slightly behind Vettel and Ricciardo on season average, after which there's a sizeable gap to Bottas who roughly equals Kimi and Verstappen. Max is still hurt by several poor early season performances.


On what criteria are you judging?


I give a score for each race weekend (qualy + race) and judge that pretty much how anyone else will. Scoring system is 0-8 with the race mattering much more than qualifying for the overall race weekend score. So going race by race, Bottas and Kimi have so far ended up with about even scores and have performed equally well.. not much meaningful to choose between them.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:10 pm 
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Right now, Bottas has been 0.061s slower than Hamilton on average in qualifying. Raikkonen has been 0.298s slower than Vettel.

However on race day Raikkonen's performances have been much better (relative to his qualifying). He has 6 podiums in 10 races. He retired twice due no fault of his own in Bahrain and Spain. In Monaco, he was decent but not great. Only in Canada was he truly terrible.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:57 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
However on race day Raikkonen's performances have been much better (relative to his qualifying). He has 6 podiums in 10 races. He retired twice due no fault of his own in Bahrain and Spain. In Monaco, he was decent but not great. Only in Canada was he truly terrible.

I think the biggest difference compared to recent years is that Kimi is actually being aggressive in the races and fighting for positions. It's cost him a few times (both of the last two races on the opening lap, for example) but gone is the extremely passive Kimi that we've seen since he re-joined Ferrari.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:56 am 
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Based on 2018 results? We know that the Merc is a faster car than the Ferrari this season; there is only one conclusion.

Kimi for sure.

Kimi has more points, more podiums, worst finishing position 6th for Kimi and 8th for Bottas and both with equal number of DNFs. Its clear Kimi is bring more points to the team for the WCC than Bottas in a slower car than the Merc. PLUS, if Mad Max had not rammed Kimi out the way in Austria, Kimi would have won that race. Interesting tactics that Max used to win a race...hmm...To try and use qualifying as some metric is useless because Kimi has never been a good qualifier. Hamilton has beaten all his teammates hands down (Rosberg, Perez, Heikki, Bottas), was neck-n-neck with Alonso and was royally thumped by Jenson Button. So, Bottas is (at best) on par with Perez and Heikki.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:13 am 
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greatestF1mindever wrote:
Based on 2018 results? We know that the Merc is a faster car than the Ferrari this season; there is only one conclusion.

Kimi for sure.

Kimi has more points, more podiums, worst finishing position 6th for Kimi and 8th for Bottas and both with equal number of DNFs. Its clear Kimi is bring more points to the team for the WCC than Bottas in a slower car than the Merc.


OK, this is a bit much. Bottas has been terribly unlucky. Sure Australia was on him, and in Monaco he wasn't great either, but for the rest he has pretty much outperformed Raikkonen everywhere. Correcting for luck or bad strategies, Bottas would clearly pull ahead of Raikkonen in the standings.

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PLUS, if Mad Max had not rammed Kimi out the way in Austria, Kimi would have won that race. Interesting tactics that Max used to win a race...hmm...


Eh. If Bottas wouldn't have had bad luck in Austria, he would have won with Kimi behind.
Secondly, Raikkonen pushed Verstappen off track earlier in the lap, preventing Verstappen to overtake him. Two can play that game. Feisty defense, feisty attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:24 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Right now, Bottas has been 0.061s slower than Hamilton on average in qualifying. Raikkonen has been 0.298s slower than Vettel.

However on race day Raikkonen's performances have been much better (relative to his qualifying). He has 6 podiums in 10 races. He retired twice due no fault of his own in Bahrain and Spain. In Monaco, he was decent but not great. Only in Canada was he truly terrible.


Just wondering how you got the average gaps between the drivers. I quickly worked it out and got Hamilton 0.063 faster (excluded Australia) and Vettel 0.347 faster (excluded nothing).

Race fans.net have the Hamilton Bottas gap at 0.029 (this might be because they've used Q2 in Australia) and the Vettel/Raikkonen gap as 0.326. https://www.racefans.net/2018-f1-season ... ying-data/

I guess methodology could be slightly different?


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:35 am 
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jimmyj wrote:
Today, in the same car, depends on the car. I would put my money on Bottas though.

That said, I think that if Kimi were 10 years younger and the same age as Valtteri, I would pick Kimi in that duel.



Exediron wrote:
They're both driving pretty well this year, really. I'd have to say that at this point in their careers I'd take Bottas, but if Kimi was 10 years younger it'd be him any day.



I agree with you gents. Now I would chose Valteri, he is solid, had some bad luck and these things come and go, next few races luck may turn his way. Kimi is almost there, but not...

Kimi from the 00's though (especially his Macca stint) would have been far superior than Valteri. Just a hunch!


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:28 pm 
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Averages are open to being skewed by outliers. A simple list hides a lot less;


Worst to best qualifying for Bottas; (excludes Australia)
+0.330
+0.210
+0.160
+0.120
+0.040

-0.019
-0.050
-0.100
-0.140

Worst to best qualifying for Raikkonen;

+1.000
+0.650
+0.350
+0.300
+0.220
+0.220
+0.140
+0.090
+0.060

-0.010

Kimi is a lot more error prone, the top 2 are him completely messing up both Q3 laps in Baku (when heading for pole at the last corner) and France were he was miles off his own Q2 time. He also made multiple errors when he looked like he would be a lot closer to Vettel but then ended up behind

Bottas hardly ever makes an error, baring Australia which isn't even in the data.

Without big errors, Kimi is generally about 0.200 off Vettel and Bottas is about 0.100 off Hamilton. Both Bottas and Kimi were doing a lot better against there team mates earlier in the year, the number ones now seem a lot stronger over 1 lap.

That is the problem with averages, Kimi's average of +0.350 is equal to his 3rd worst result of the year out of 10. On sheer pace, he has been around his average 1 time in 10 races - Canada. All other 9 races his pace has been better than that.

Bottas quite comprehensively beat Massa over 1 lap and Massa comprehensively beat Kimi, although of course age is to be considered. But Kimi himself is now old.
Kimi has also never been that strong over 1 lap since leaving Mclaren, beaten by Massa, Vettel, Alonso -thrashed by the later two - and narrowly edged Grosjean.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:13 pm 
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They are both average drivers, very inconsistent and error prone, kinda hard to predict but maybe Bottas.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:49 pm 
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Robot wrote:
They are both average drivers, very inconsistent and error prone, kinda hard to predict but maybe Bottas.


Neither are only "average" drivers... Not even in F1.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Averages are open to being skewed by outliers. A simple list hides a lot less;


Worst to best qualifying for Bottas; (excludes Australia)
+0.330
+0.210
+0.160
+0.120
+0.040

-0.019
-0.050
-0.100
-0.140

Worst to best qualifying for Raikkonen;

+1.000
+0.650
+0.350
+0.300
+0.220
+0.220
+0.140
+0.090
+0.060

-0.010

Kimi is a lot more error prone, the top 2 are him completely messing up both Q3 laps in Baku (when heading for pole at the last corner) and France were he was miles off his own Q2 time. He also made multiple errors when he looked like he would be a lot closer to Vettel but then ended up behind

Bottas hardly ever makes an error, baring Australia which isn't even in the data.

Without big errors, Kimi is generally about 0.200 off Vettel and Bottas is about 0.100 off Hamilton. Both Bottas and Kimi were doing a lot better against there team mates earlier in the year, the number ones now seem a lot stronger over 1 lap.

That is the problem with averages, Kimi's average of +0.350 is equal to his 3rd worst result of the year out of 10. On sheer pace, he has been around his average 1 time in 10 races - Canada. All other 9 races his pace has been better than that.

Bottas quite comprehensively beat Massa over 1 lap and Massa comprehensively beat Kimi, although of course age is to be considered. But Kimi himself is now old.
Kimi has also never been that strong over 1 lap since leaving Mclaren, beaten by Massa, Vettel, Alonso -thrashed by the later two - and narrowly edged Grosjean.

Good post and quite well demontrates the problem with averages. Maybe the median figures would be more representative? That puts Bottas on par with Hamilton and Kimi two tenths behind Vettel.
Seeing as how Kimi always seems to have problems hooking up an entire lap, would be interesting to the how the drivers (not just these two) compare when using their best sector times to form their laptimes.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:49 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Robot wrote:
They are both average drivers, very inconsistent and error prone, kinda hard to predict but maybe Bottas.


Neither are only "average" drivers... Not even in F1.

And I'm not even sure why you say they are error prone. Kimi has had a few knocks recently, but usually his lack of attempted overtakes results in very few mistakes. Depends whet you count as errors. But Bottas has made less very costly mistakes than any other driver on the grid that has been in F1 for at least a full season. And this is over his entire career. Crashed out just once in nearly 6 years in qualifying. And has never been deemed responsible for his or anyone else’s retirement during the races. He occationly makes small errors and isn't on top form. But Bottas being inconsistent and error prone isn't at all true.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:01 am 
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Blake wrote:
Robot wrote:
They are both average drivers, very inconsistent and error prone, kinda hard to predict but maybe Bottas.


Neither are only "average" drivers... Not even in F1.


Kimi probably is now when viewed among his current pears. Probably sits in that middle third.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:07 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Robot wrote:
They are both average drivers, very inconsistent and error prone, kinda hard to predict but maybe Bottas.


Neither are only "average" drivers... Not even in F1.


Kimi probably is now when viewed among his current pears. Probably sits in that middle third.


How exactly?

It's like judging Schumacher based on '10-'12.


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