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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:39 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I have seen nothing in his career (nor in this thread) that suggest Kubica was better than likes of Massa, Räikkönen, Heidfeld, Fisichella, etc.


Raikkonen, Massa and Fissichella have all failed to mount championship runs when in the best or very near best car. Kubica did with the third best car.

what years are you thinking?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:16 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I have seen nothing in his career (nor in this thread) that suggest Kubica was better than likes of Massa, Räikkönen, Heidfeld, Fisichella, etc.


Raikkonen, Massa and Fissichella have all failed to mount championship runs when in the best or very near best car. Kubica did with the third best car.

what years are you thinking?


Oooh let me try this one....

Raikkonen 2008, 2017
Massa 2007, 2010, 2012

All just off top of head, no idea about the other. I'm sure plenty to argue about in those choices already :D


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:20 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I have seen nothing in his career (nor in this thread) that suggest Kubica was better than likes of Massa, Räikkönen, Heidfeld, Fisichella, etc.


Raikkonen, Massa and Fissichella have all failed to mount championship runs when in the best or very near best car. Kubica did with the third best car.

what years are you thinking?


Fissichella 2005 and 2006.
Massa 2006 and perhaps 2010 and 2007 if I'm being really mean about it.
Kimi 2017 and possibly 2012, difficult to know on that one.

All of them have at least one season where what I wrote above would apply without controversy.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I have seen nothing in his career (nor in this thread) that suggest Kubica was better than likes of Massa, Räikkönen, Heidfeld, Fisichella, etc.


Raikkonen, Massa and Fissichella have all failed to mount championship runs when in the best or very near best car. Kubica did with the third best car.

what years are you thinking?


Fissichella 2005 and 2006.
Massa 2006 and perhaps 2010 and 2007 if I'm being really mean about it.
Kimi 2017 and possibly 2012, difficult to know on that one.

All of them have at least one season where what I wrote above would apply without controversy.

well, yeah, but all of them - with the exception of Fisichella - have also mounted championship runs themselves. I'm not sure it's a valid point just because they've had a year or two where it hasn't worked out. I do get what you're trying to say but I'm not sure the comparison stands up. I mean Kubica did well to stay in the running as long as he did but really that's because his rivals were doing their best to take each other out. He inherited the Canada win because of "woodeneye," for example. Circumstance plays a part.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I have seen nothing in his career (nor in this thread) that suggest Kubica was better than likes of Massa, Räikkönen, Heidfeld, Fisichella, etc.


Raikkonen, Massa and Fissichella have all failed to mount championship runs when in the best or very near best car. Kubica did with the third best car.

what years are you thinking?


Fissichella 2005 and 2006.
Massa 2006 and perhaps 2010 and 2007 if I'm being really mean about it.
Kimi 2017 and possibly 2012, difficult to know on that one.

All of them have at least one season where what I wrote above would apply without controversy.

well, yeah, but all of them - with the exception of Fisichella - have also mounted championship runs themselves. I'm not sure it's a valid point just because they've had a year or two where it hasn't worked out. I do get what you're trying to say but I'm not sure the comparison stands up. I mean Kubica did well to stay in the running as long as he did but really that's because his rivals were doing their best to take each other out. He inherited the Canada win because of "woodeneye," for example. Circumstance plays a part.


I was just giving one example that showed Kubica doing something the other drivers mentioned have not. I agree it's not an infallible example but remember I did say none of them had a tittle run when without sitting in a car that was the best or at least close to.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:18 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

I was just giving one example that showed Kubica doing something the other drivers mentioned have not. I agree it's not an infallible example but remember I did say none of them had a tittle run when without sitting in a car that was the best or at least close to.


Raikkonen almost beat Schumi to a title with an old spec Mclaren, only a rear wing failure prevented.

What title challenge did Kubica manage?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:53 am 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I was just giving one example that showed Kubica doing something the other drivers mentioned have not. I agree it's not an infallible example but remember I did say none of them had a tittle run when without sitting in a car that was the best or at least close to.


Raikkonen almost beat Schumi to a title with an old spec Mclaren, only a rear wing failure prevented.

What title challenge did Kubica manage?


2008. The 2003 Mclaren was still at least Almost as good as the Ferrari. I wouldn't argue that Kubica was better than 03-06 Kimi though.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:17 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I was just giving one example that showed Kubica doing something the other drivers mentioned have not. I agree it's not an infallible example but remember I did say none of them had a tittle run when without sitting in a car that was the best or at least close to.


Raikkonen almost beat Schumi to a title with an old spec Mclaren, only a rear wing failure prevented.

What title challenge did Kubica manage?


2008. The 2003 Mclaren was still at least Almost as good as the Ferrari. I wouldn't argue that Kubica was better than 03-06 Kimi though.


You gotta be joking!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:34 am 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I was just giving one example that showed Kubica doing something the other drivers mentioned have not. I agree it's not an infallible example but remember I did say none of them had a tittle run when without sitting in a car that was the best or at least close to.


Raikkonen almost beat Schumi to a title with an old spec Mclaren, only a rear wing failure prevented.

What title challenge did Kubica manage?


2008. The 2003 Mclaren was still at least Almost as good as the Ferrari. I wouldn't argue that Kubica was better than 03-06 Kimi though.


You gotta be joking!


You believe Schumacher massively under performed ?

Remember you've told me in the past on another thread that it's not possible for a driver to beat another driver in a faster car....


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:57 am 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I was just giving one example that showed Kubica doing something the other drivers mentioned have not. I agree it's not an infallible example but remember I did say none of them had a tittle run when without sitting in a car that was the best or at least close to.


Raikkonen almost beat Schumi to a title with an old spec Mclaren, only a rear wing failure prevented.

What title challenge did Kubica manage?


Kimi's rear wing failure was Hockenheim 2004, no?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhwPSAI-dOo


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:01 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

You believe Schumacher massively under performed ?

Remember you've told me in the past on another thread that it's not possible for a driver to beat another driver in a faster car....


Why does it have to be either extreme?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:58 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

You believe Schumacher massively under performed ?

Remember you've told me in the past on another thread that it's not possible for a driver to beat another driver in a faster car....


Why does it have to be either extreme?


For Kimi to have matched Schumacher in a much inferior car Schumi would have to be well of his way game. And it's you yourself that have said nobody can beat a driver in a better car. That's not my opinion but it is yours.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:08 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

You believe Schumacher massively under performed ?

Remember you've told me in the past on another thread that it's not possible for a driver to beat another driver in a faster car....


Why does it have to be either extreme?


For Kimi to have matched Schumacher in a much inferior car Schumi would have to be well of his way game. And it's you yourself that have said nobody can beat a driver in a better car. That's not my opinion but it is yours.


The second part still stands till date you cant win in an inferior car.

You have not answered why it has to be Schumacher under-performing?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:45 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

You believe Schumacher massively under performed ?

Remember you've told me in the past on another thread that it's not possible for a driver to beat another driver in a faster car....


Why does it have to be either extreme?


For Kimi to have matched Schumacher in a much inferior car Schumi would have to be well of his way game. And it's you yourself that have said nobody can beat a driver in a better car. That's not my opinion but it is yours.


The second part still stands till date you cant win in an inferior car.

You have not answered why it has to be Schumacher under-performing?


Then how did Kimi beat Barrichello in 03?

I have answered it. For Kimi to almost match Schumacher in an inferior car then Schumacher must have performed worse than Kimi. Unless you believe the Mclaren was equal to the Ferrari? In which case why bring it up?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:52 pm 
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Kubica may yet sign for Ferrari as the development driver for the Scuderia… OR…

He might be getting the drive at Williams after all!!!
It's being reported by several sources that he's been offered the seat. I'll keep my fingers, toes, laces, and everything I can for him.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:54 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Kubica may yet sign for Ferrari as the development driver for the Scuderia… OR…

He might be getting the drive at Williams after all!!!
It's being reported by several sources that he's been offered the seat. I'll keep my fingers, toes, laces, and everything I can for him.

Yes it makes a good against all the odds story however given that he has to bring money I can't help feel that he's not the driver he once was?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:11 pm 
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Link-only OP's should be forbidden

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:46 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.

Kubica was far superior to Massa. The former only finished 8 points behind the latter, despite one driving a Renault and the other a Ferrari. If Massa couldn't beat Fisichella, Bottas or Heidfeld, he was never going to beat Kubica.


Well you say that.. but

Av Fin when both finsihed:

Heidfeld vs Kubica (43): 7.4-7.4 = -0.01*
Heidfeld vs Massa (8): 7.4-7.1 = +0.25

*rounding. Numbers are actually 7.395 - 7.405

So on these stats Kubica and Heidfeld were pretty even, Massa just edged Heidfeld, but Kubica was far superior to Massa.

I agree Kubica was probably better than Massa but if he was SO superior - why doesn't it show - surely he should have a significantly better record against Heidfeld than Massa did?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:49 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.

Kubica was far superior to Massa. The former only finished 8 points behind the latter, despite one driving a Renault and the other a Ferrari. If Massa couldn't beat Fisichella, Bottas or Heidfeld, he was never going to beat Kubica.


Well you say that.. but

Av Fin when both finsihed:

Heidfeld vs Kubica (43): 7.4-7.4 = -0.01*
Heidfeld vs Massa (8): 7.4-7.1 = +0.25

*rounding. Numbers are actually 7.395 - 7.405

So on these stats Kubica and Heidfeld were pretty even, Massa just edged Heidfeld, but Kubica was far superior to Massa.

I agree Kubica was probably better than Massa but if he was SO superior - why doesn't it show - surely he should have a significantly better record against Heidfeld than Massa did?


I think the data set for Heidfevd vs Massa is too small to draw any real conclusions. I would say that's why it doesn't show.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:41 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.

Kubica was far superior to Massa. The former only finished 8 points behind the latter, despite one driving a Renault and the other a Ferrari. If Massa couldn't beat Fisichella, Bottas or Heidfeld, he was never going to beat Kubica.


Well you say that.. but

Av Fin when both finsihed:
Heidfeld vs Kubica (43): 7.4-7.4 = -0.01*
Heidfeld vs Massa (8): 7.4-7.1 = +0.25

*rounding. Numbers are actually 7.395 - 7.405

So on these stats Kubica and Heidfeld were pretty even, Massa just edged Heidfeld, but Kubica was far superior to Massa.
I agree Kubica was probably better than Massa but if he was SO superior - why doesn't it show - surely he should have a significantly better record against Heidfeld than Massa did?

I think the data set for Heidfevd vs Massa is too small to draw any real conclusions. I would say that's why it doesn't show.


Possibly but we have 3 seasons worth of Kubica vs Heidfeld and surely there would be a bigger gap there if Kubica was as good as some people think?
Plus Massa in his debut year showed up pretty well against Heidfeld who was in his 3rd.

I've nothing against Kubica - just never quite bought into the hype sometimes placed on him.

Only won 1 title pre-F1 (and field didn't look that great), 4 Years in F1, 1 x attrition based win, marginally better than Heidfeld...

He drove well in '08, capitalising on the misfortune of others, but the whole WDC challenge is misleading in my opinion. He ultimately placed 4th tied on points with Raikkonen yet the win tally was HAM 5, MAS 6, RAI 2, ALO 2, KUB 1 (when both Hamilton and Raikkonen retired). If anything Massa is the unsung hero of that year.

To be honest I was more impressed with his pre-accident rally exploits. That footage of him flat out in the dark and wet with dodgy headlights was mental.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:23 pm 
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And now multiple sources, including Motorsport, are reporting that Kubica has signed for Williams for 2019 to partner Russel, with the official announcement set to be made early this race weekend.

Seems Legitimate enough to say... WooHooooo!
So happy for him. His fight to make it back has to be the most incredibly difficult one ofvany driver I can remember.

Let’s hope the car Williams builds is not an abysmal one like this season.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:29 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
To be honest I was more impressed with his pre-accident rally exploits. That footage of him flat out in the dark and wet with dodgy headlights was mental.


That dark run was a few years after his accident.

I won't mention the rest of your post, you are wrong but I'm too happy to argue right now :)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:37 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
And now multiple sources, including Motorsport, are reporting that Kubica has signed for Williams for 2019 to partner Russel, with the official announcement set to be made early this race weekend.

Seems Legitimate enough to say... WooHooooo!
So happy for him. His fight to make it back has to be the most incredibly difficult one ofvany driver I can remember.

Let’s hope the car Williams builds is not an abysmal one like this season.

:thumbup:

I think Russel's level is fairly clear - and high - so we should get a decent idea of where the car stands. I wouldn't be shocked if the 2019 lineup could take the current car into the points a fair bit more often than we've seen.

If Kubica is close to Russel or ahead I'll be quite impressed, but either way it's a nice feel-good story to have him back on the grid.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:38 pm 
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Amazing story. Robert will be 34 when he takes to the grid in Australia next season. The last time he raced an F1 car was in Abu Dhabi in 2010 at the age of 25. I'd bet any amount of money that this is the longest ever hiatus for an F1 driver returning to action. Good for him. Hopefully he's still got it!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:00 am 
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Great news! What a comeback story. Him and Russell seem like a stronger driver pairing than Stroll/Sirotkin so I’m curious if they can get into the Torro Rosso, Renault, Haas battle.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:39 am 
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Someone refresh my memory! When is Kubica's expiry date?? :?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:21 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Someone refresh my memory! When is Kubica's expiry date?? :?

Who knows? He's not too old to be competitive, so that's just down to how well he's kept up his open-wheel skills during his time away from F1.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:56 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Amazing story. Robert will be 34 when he takes to the grid in Australia next season. The last time he raced an F1 car was in Abu Dhabi in 2010 at the age of 25. I'd bet any amount of money that this is the longest ever hiatus for an F1 driver returning to action. Good for him. Hopefully he's still got it!


I'm afraid you would've lost your money! his 9y 4m hiatus would be the third longest absence from the grid.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:57 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Amazing story. Robert will be 34 when he takes to the grid in Australia next season. The last time he raced an F1 car was in Abu Dhabi in 2010 at the age of 25. I'd bet any amount of money that this is the longest ever hiatus for an F1 driver returning to action. Good for him. Hopefully he's still got it!


I'm afraid you would've lost your money! his 9y 4m hiatus would be the third longest absence from the grid.

Who's #1 and #2?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:02 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Amazing story. Robert will be 34 when he takes to the grid in Australia next season. The last time he raced an F1 car was in Abu Dhabi in 2010 at the age of 25. I'd bet any amount of money that this is the longest ever hiatus for an F1 driver returning to action. Good for him. Hopefully he's still got it!


I'm afraid you would've lost your money! his 9y 4m hiatus would be the third longest absence from the grid.

Who's #1 and #2?


Anyone care to take a guess at this one? Number 2 is particularly memorable...

Edit - Actually it's 8 years and 4 months so that means he's actually 4th on the list not including Indy only drivers.


Last edited by mikeyg123 on Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:09 am 
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It's official now.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:32 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Someone refresh my memory! When is Kubica's expiry date?? :?


NEVER


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:40 am 
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Given his rally skills, I’m willing to bet Kubica will be the faster guy consistently.
Even post accident he was damn fast.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:06 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Amazing story. Robert will be 34 when he takes to the grid in Australia next season. The last time he raced an F1 car was in Abu Dhabi in 2010 at the age of 25. I'd bet any amount of money that this is the longest ever hiatus for an F1 driver returning to action. Good for him. Hopefully he's still got it!


I'm afraid you would've lost your money! his 9y 4m hiatus would be the third longest absence from the grid.

Who's #1 and #2?


Anyone care to take a guess at this one? Number 2 is particularly memorable...

Edit - Actually it's 8 years and 4 months so that means he's actually 4th on the list not including Indy only drivers.


Dammit, I don't want to google this, but it is very tempting


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:45 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Amazing story. Robert will be 34 when he takes to the grid in Australia next season. The last time he raced an F1 car was in Abu Dhabi in 2010 at the age of 25. I'd bet any amount of money that this is the longest ever hiatus for an F1 driver returning to action. Good for him. Hopefully he's still got it!


I'm afraid you would've lost your money! his 9y 4m hiatus would be the third longest absence from the grid.

Who's #1 and #2?

Anyone care to take a guess at this one? Number 2 is particularly memorable...

Edit - Actually it's 8 years and 4 months so that means he's actually 4th on the list not including Indy only drivers.

Okay, I'll take some guesses...

My first guess would be Luca Badoer for #2, only since you said it was a particularly memorable driver. I don't think anyone's comeback could be more memorable, albeit not in a good way. :-P

Other names that come to mind would be Lauda (too short), Schumacher (too short)...

Badoer's the only one I'm coming up with. I'm using some self discipline and staying off the search button!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:03 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Amazing story. Robert will be 34 when he takes to the grid in Australia next season. The last time he raced an F1 car was in Abu Dhabi in 2010 at the age of 25. I'd bet any amount of money that this is the longest ever hiatus for an F1 driver returning to action. Good for him. Hopefully he's still got it!


I'm afraid you would've lost your money! his 9y 4m hiatus would be the third longest absence from the grid.

Who's #1 and #2?

Anyone care to take a guess at this one? Number 2 is particularly memorable...

Edit - Actually it's 8 years and 4 months so that means he's actually 4th on the list not including Indy only drivers.

Okay, I'll take some guesses...

My first guess would be Luca Badoer for #2, only since you said it was a particularly memorable driver. I don't think anyone's comeback could be more memorable, albeit not in a good way. :-P

Other names that come to mind would be Lauda (too short), Schumacher (too short)...

Badoer's the only one I'm coming up with. I'm using some self discipline and staying off the search button!


Good shout, Badoer.

Another 2 to go I guess!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:42 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Anyone care to take a guess at this one? Number 2 is particularly memorable...

Edit - Actually it's 8 years and 4 months so that means he's actually 4th on the list not including Indy only drivers.

Okay, I'll take some guesses...

My first guess would be Luca Badoer for #2, only since you said it was a particularly memorable driver. I don't think anyone's comeback could be more memorable, albeit not in a good way. :-P

Other names that come to mind would be Lauda (too short), Schumacher (too short)...

Badoer's the only one I'm coming up with. I'm using some self discipline and staying off the search button!


Good shout, Badoer.

Another 2 to go I guess!


We're talking almost a decade between drinks here.

I've also pushed out the temptation to google the answer but i'd reckon they'd be 2 pretty obscure drivers or if they we reasonably well known they'd have returned for 1 off drives.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:09 pm 
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Badoer is the least obscure one. One of the others was the one i instantly thought of reading Sandman's post and was a bigger name in sportscars than F1. The other one is very obscure.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:14 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Badoer is the least obscure one. One of the others was the one i instantly thought of reading Sandman's post and was a bigger name in sportscars than F1. The other one is very obscure.


Jean Louise Schlesser?

Italy 1988.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Badoer is the least obscure one. One of the others was the one i instantly thought of reading Sandman's post and was a bigger name in sportscars than F1. The other one is very obscure.


Jean Louise Schlesser?

Italy 1988.


Nope.


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