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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:39 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I have seen nothing in his career (nor in this thread) that suggest Kubica was better than likes of Massa, Räikkönen, Heidfeld, Fisichella, etc.


Raikkonen, Massa and Fissichella have all failed to mount championship runs when in the best or very near best car. Kubica did with the third best car.

what years are you thinking?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:16 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I have seen nothing in his career (nor in this thread) that suggest Kubica was better than likes of Massa, Räikkönen, Heidfeld, Fisichella, etc.


Raikkonen, Massa and Fissichella have all failed to mount championship runs when in the best or very near best car. Kubica did with the third best car.

what years are you thinking?


Oooh let me try this one....

Raikkonen 2008, 2017
Massa 2007, 2010, 2012

All just off top of head, no idea about the other. I'm sure plenty to argue about in those choices already :D


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:20 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I have seen nothing in his career (nor in this thread) that suggest Kubica was better than likes of Massa, Räikkönen, Heidfeld, Fisichella, etc.


Raikkonen, Massa and Fissichella have all failed to mount championship runs when in the best or very near best car. Kubica did with the third best car.

what years are you thinking?


Fissichella 2005 and 2006.
Massa 2006 and perhaps 2010 and 2007 if I'm being really mean about it.
Kimi 2017 and possibly 2012, difficult to know on that one.

All of them have at least one season where what I wrote above would apply without controversy.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I have seen nothing in his career (nor in this thread) that suggest Kubica was better than likes of Massa, Räikkönen, Heidfeld, Fisichella, etc.


Raikkonen, Massa and Fissichella have all failed to mount championship runs when in the best or very near best car. Kubica did with the third best car.

what years are you thinking?


Fissichella 2005 and 2006.
Massa 2006 and perhaps 2010 and 2007 if I'm being really mean about it.
Kimi 2017 and possibly 2012, difficult to know on that one.

All of them have at least one season where what I wrote above would apply without controversy.

well, yeah, but all of them - with the exception of Fisichella - have also mounted championship runs themselves. I'm not sure it's a valid point just because they've had a year or two where it hasn't worked out. I do get what you're trying to say but I'm not sure the comparison stands up. I mean Kubica did well to stay in the running as long as he did but really that's because his rivals were doing their best to take each other out. He inherited the Canada win because of "woodeneye," for example. Circumstance plays a part.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I have seen nothing in his career (nor in this thread) that suggest Kubica was better than likes of Massa, Räikkönen, Heidfeld, Fisichella, etc.


Raikkonen, Massa and Fissichella have all failed to mount championship runs when in the best or very near best car. Kubica did with the third best car.

what years are you thinking?


Fissichella 2005 and 2006.
Massa 2006 and perhaps 2010 and 2007 if I'm being really mean about it.
Kimi 2017 and possibly 2012, difficult to know on that one.

All of them have at least one season where what I wrote above would apply without controversy.

well, yeah, but all of them - with the exception of Fisichella - have also mounted championship runs themselves. I'm not sure it's a valid point just because they've had a year or two where it hasn't worked out. I do get what you're trying to say but I'm not sure the comparison stands up. I mean Kubica did well to stay in the running as long as he did but really that's because his rivals were doing their best to take each other out. He inherited the Canada win because of "woodeneye," for example. Circumstance plays a part.


I was just giving one example that showed Kubica doing something the other drivers mentioned have not. I agree it's not an infallible example but remember I did say none of them had a tittle run when without sitting in a car that was the best or at least close to.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:18 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

I was just giving one example that showed Kubica doing something the other drivers mentioned have not. I agree it's not an infallible example but remember I did say none of them had a tittle run when without sitting in a car that was the best or at least close to.


Raikkonen almost beat Schumi to a title with an old spec Mclaren, only a rear wing failure prevented.

What title challenge did Kubica manage?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:53 am 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I was just giving one example that showed Kubica doing something the other drivers mentioned have not. I agree it's not an infallible example but remember I did say none of them had a tittle run when without sitting in a car that was the best or at least close to.


Raikkonen almost beat Schumi to a title with an old spec Mclaren, only a rear wing failure prevented.

What title challenge did Kubica manage?


2008. The 2003 Mclaren was still at least Almost as good as the Ferrari. I wouldn't argue that Kubica was better than 03-06 Kimi though.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:17 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I was just giving one example that showed Kubica doing something the other drivers mentioned have not. I agree it's not an infallible example but remember I did say none of them had a tittle run when without sitting in a car that was the best or at least close to.


Raikkonen almost beat Schumi to a title with an old spec Mclaren, only a rear wing failure prevented.

What title challenge did Kubica manage?


2008. The 2003 Mclaren was still at least Almost as good as the Ferrari. I wouldn't argue that Kubica was better than 03-06 Kimi though.


You gotta be joking!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:34 am 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I was just giving one example that showed Kubica doing something the other drivers mentioned have not. I agree it's not an infallible example but remember I did say none of them had a tittle run when without sitting in a car that was the best or at least close to.


Raikkonen almost beat Schumi to a title with an old spec Mclaren, only a rear wing failure prevented.

What title challenge did Kubica manage?


2008. The 2003 Mclaren was still at least Almost as good as the Ferrari. I wouldn't argue that Kubica was better than 03-06 Kimi though.


You gotta be joking!


You believe Schumacher massively under performed ?

Remember you've told me in the past on another thread that it's not possible for a driver to beat another driver in a faster car....


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:57 am 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I was just giving one example that showed Kubica doing something the other drivers mentioned have not. I agree it's not an infallible example but remember I did say none of them had a tittle run when without sitting in a car that was the best or at least close to.


Raikkonen almost beat Schumi to a title with an old spec Mclaren, only a rear wing failure prevented.

What title challenge did Kubica manage?


Kimi's rear wing failure was Hockenheim 2004, no?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhwPSAI-dOo


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:01 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

You believe Schumacher massively under performed ?

Remember you've told me in the past on another thread that it's not possible for a driver to beat another driver in a faster car....


Why does it have to be either extreme?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:58 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

You believe Schumacher massively under performed ?

Remember you've told me in the past on another thread that it's not possible for a driver to beat another driver in a faster car....


Why does it have to be either extreme?


For Kimi to have matched Schumacher in a much inferior car Schumi would have to be well of his way game. And it's you yourself that have said nobody can beat a driver in a better car. That's not my opinion but it is yours.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:08 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

You believe Schumacher massively under performed ?

Remember you've told me in the past on another thread that it's not possible for a driver to beat another driver in a faster car....


Why does it have to be either extreme?


For Kimi to have matched Schumacher in a much inferior car Schumi would have to be well of his way game. And it's you yourself that have said nobody can beat a driver in a better car. That's not my opinion but it is yours.


The second part still stands till date you cant win in an inferior car.

You have not answered why it has to be Schumacher under-performing?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:45 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

You believe Schumacher massively under performed ?

Remember you've told me in the past on another thread that it's not possible for a driver to beat another driver in a faster car....


Why does it have to be either extreme?


For Kimi to have matched Schumacher in a much inferior car Schumi would have to be well of his way game. And it's you yourself that have said nobody can beat a driver in a better car. That's not my opinion but it is yours.


The second part still stands till date you cant win in an inferior car.

You have not answered why it has to be Schumacher under-performing?


Then how did Kimi beat Barrichello in 03?

I have answered it. For Kimi to almost match Schumacher in an inferior car then Schumacher must have performed worse than Kimi. Unless you believe the Mclaren was equal to the Ferrari? In which case why bring it up?


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