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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:51 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Badoer is the least obscure one. One of the others was the one i instantly thought of reading Sandman's post and was a bigger name in sportscars than F1. The other one is very obscure.


Jean Louise Schlesser?

Italy 1988.


Nope.


Jan Lammer

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:18 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Badoer is the least obscure one. One of the others was the one i instantly thought of reading Sandman's post and was a bigger name in sportscars than F1. The other one is very obscure.


Jean Louise Schlesser?

Italy 1988.


Nope.


Jan Lammer

He's the one, the longest one, 10 years!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:28 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Badoer is the least obscure one. One of the others was the one i instantly thought of reading Sandman's post and was a bigger name in sportscars than F1. The other one is very obscure.


Jean Louise Schlesser?

Italy 1988.


Nope.


Jan Lammer

He's the one, the longest one, 10 years!


Special thanks to Jensons Understeer in the PF1 TMW Williams prediction thread for spilling the beans.

Cheers JU :thumbup: :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Yep Jan Lammers is the one. 1982-1992.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:29 pm 
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Who is the third one then?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:03 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.

I think Kubica was a Rosberg level driver.

That obviously puts him above Massa.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:38 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Who is the third one then?

I did look this one up. Pete Lovely, apparently - 8 years, 10 months. Never heard of him in my life.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:41 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.

I think Kubica was a Rosberg level driver.

That obviously puts him above Massa.

My thoughts as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:19 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.

I think Kubica was a Rosberg level driver.

That obviously puts him above Massa.

If you’ve ever seen footage of him and Alonso racing each other in karts, you’d see how closely matched they are. Kubica might be closer to Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel than many imagine. At the time of his accident, he was getting better and better, and was utilizing his experience garnered via rallying to make himself an even better version of himself with better car control and a quicker reflexes. The accident put a stop to everything, and his complications post surgery put the viability of his arm

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:24 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.

I think Kubica was a Rosberg level driver.

That obviously puts him above Massa.

If you’ve ever seen footage of him and Alonso racing each other in karts, you’d see how closely matched they are. Kubica might be closer to Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel than many imagine. At the time of his accident, he was getting better and better, and was utilizing his experience garnered via rallying to make himself an even better version of himself with better car control and a quicker reflexes. The accident put a stop to everything, and his complications post surgery put the viability of his arm

Not all great karters made great F1 drivers, Kubica was a very good F1 driver but I would say not quite great that was something he had very much to prove but fate prevented that.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:34 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Who is the third one then?

I did look this one up. Pete Lovely, apparently - 8 years, 10 months. Never heard of him in my life.

Ah, thank you. No idea, but his name sounds nice!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:18 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.

I think Kubica was a Rosberg level driver.

That obviously puts him above Massa.


You for sure did not watch many races 2006-2010 eh
Check Monza 2006, Monaco 2008 for example, you may also compare Ferrari, Bmw sauber car performance, comparing Massa to Kubica, well says a lot bout your knowledge of this period.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:32 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.

I think Kubica was a Rosberg level driver.

That obviously puts him above Massa.

If you’ve ever seen footage of him and Alonso racing each other in karts, you’d see how closely matched they are. Kubica might be closer to Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel than many imagine. At the time of his accident, he was getting better and better, and was utilizing his experience garnered via rallying to make himself an even better version of himself with better car control and a quicker reflexes. The accident put a stop to everything, and his complications post surgery put the viability of his arm

I disagree. He was probably pretty similar level to Vettel but I don't think Hamilton Alonso and Vettel are interchangeable and never have. Hamilton and Alonso are a cut above the likes of Vettel, Rosberg, Kubica, etc.

Kubica had his hands full with Heidfeld for much of their time as teammates (though I did rate Kubica as being superior overall). He was pretty damn fast without question and his racecraft was among the best on the grid in 2008-2010. Not a great overtaker but overtaking was much harder back then anyway (before DRS). I was really upset to see what happened to him in 2011 and it's great that he's made it back out there. Just too bad it's at the expense of Ocon, who I think is quite promising.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:05 am 
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Filip wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
I doubt that Kubica was ever better than Massa.

I think Kubica was a Rosberg level driver.

That obviously puts him above Massa.


You for sure did not watch many races 2006-2010 eh
Check Monza 2006, Monaco 2008 for example, you may also compare Ferrari, Bmw sauber car performance, comparing Massa to Kubica, well says a lot bout your knowledge of this period.

He said he was better than Massa.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:12 am 
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Tell me a driver who never drive a top car and community thinks he's very top level? Sunday fan will never notice it. Imagine Alonso started his career 5 years ago, would someone think he's great? don't think so :)

Tbh comparing Kubica and Massa is just bad, Kubica outperformed Massa fair and square on track or in quali multiple times driving a way slower car every single time, it's not even close.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:19 am 
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Mayox wrote:
Tell me a driver who never drive a top car and community thinks he's very top level? Sunday fan will never notice it. Imagine Alonso started his career 5 years ago, would someone think he's great? don't think so :)

Tbh comparing Kubica and Massa is just bad, Kubica outperformed Massa fair and square on track or in quali multiple times driving a way slower car every single time, it's not even close.

The poster clearly said that Kubica was better than Massa.

In Alonso's last 5 years in F1 he beat 2 world champions, Kubica went nip and tuck with Heidfeld who never won a GP.

Kimi as a rookie was deemed by McLaren to be better than Heidfled whilst Alonso gave Kimi a thrashing.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:26 am 
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Remember, if you#re going to say X>Y>Z therefore X>Z, remember you can use that logic to prove Badoer is better than Senna.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:28 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Mayox wrote:
Tell me a driver who never drive a top car and community thinks he's very top level? Sunday fan will never notice it. Imagine Alonso started his career 5 years ago, would someone think he's great? don't think so :)

Tbh comparing Kubica and Massa is just bad, Kubica outperformed Massa fair and square on track or in quali multiple times driving a way slower car every single time, it's not even close.

The poster clearly said that Kubica was better than Massa.

In Alonso's last 5 years in F1 he beat 2 world champions, Kubica went nip and tuck with Heidfeld who never won a GP.


C'mon :) World champion in F1 is not the definition of great results every year, do i really have to explain this here? Where was Lewis between 2008 and 2014? He lost his skills suddenly and couldn't drive?

Look at your thinking - Alonso beat world champion! (Kimi) and Kubica struggled with Nick (0 wins!). Nick and Kimi were teammates one day, Nick was better... He was also better than Massa.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:32 am 
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P-F1 Mod wrote:
Remember, if you#re going to say X>Y>Z therefore X>Z, remember you can use that logic to prove Badoer is better than Senna.

Well in that case how can we judge anything?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:34 am 
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pokerman wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
Remember, if you#re going to say X>Y>Z therefore X>Z, remember you can use that logic to prove Badoer is better than Senna.

Well in that case how can we judge anything?

I'm not saying don't use it, just that like any other yardstick it's not an absolute.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:38 am 
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Mayox wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayox wrote:
Tell me a driver who never drive a top car and community thinks he's very top level? Sunday fan will never notice it. Imagine Alonso started his career 5 years ago, would someone think he's great? don't think so :)

Tbh comparing Kubica and Massa is just bad, Kubica outperformed Massa fair and square on track or in quali multiple times driving a way slower car every single time, it's not even close.

The poster clearly said that Kubica was better than Massa.

In Alonso's last 5 years in F1 he beat 2 world champions, Kubica went nip and tuck with Heidfeld who never won a GP.


C'mon :) World champion in F1 is not the definition of great results every year, do i really have to explain this here? Where was Lewis between 2008 and 2014? He lost his skills suddenly and couldn't drive?

Look at your thinking - Alonso beat world champion! (Kimi) and Kubica struggled with Nick (0 wins!). Nick and Kimi were teammates one day, Nick was better... He was also better than Massa.

My point being that things point to Alonso making shorter shrift of Heidfeld than what Kubica did, ultimately he had not done enough to prove himself to be on the very highest level but certainly he was very good.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Mayox wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayox wrote:
Tell me a driver who never drive a top car and community thinks he's very top level? Sunday fan will never notice it. Imagine Alonso started his career 5 years ago, would someone think he's great? don't think so :)

Tbh comparing Kubica and Massa is just bad, Kubica outperformed Massa fair and square on track or in quali multiple times driving a way slower car every single time, it's not even close.

The poster clearly said that Kubica was better than Massa.

In Alonso's last 5 years in F1 he beat 2 world champions, Kubica went nip and tuck with Heidfeld who never won a GP.


C'mon :) World champion in F1 is not the definition of great results every year, do i really have to explain this here? Where was Lewis between 2008 and 2014? He lost his skills suddenly and couldn't drive?

Look at your thinking - Alonso beat world champion! (Kimi) and Kubica struggled with Nick (0 wins!). Nick and Kimi were teammates one day, Nick was better... He was also better than Massa.

My point being that things point to Alonso making shorter shrift of Heidfeld than what Kubica did, ultimately he had not done enough to prove himself to be on the very highest level but certainly he was very good.


Of course he didn't do enough, guess everyone knows why, but I can''t remember a driver who ever proved to be very top level without driving a top level car and win titles - only this matters in F1.

Well, backing to the topic... Domenicali was one of the first persons in hospital, Kubica in fact was signed to Ferrari, some well informed people were writing about this way before Kubica said this. Maybe he would fail in Ferrari, maybe he would be already multiple WDC, we don't know and we will never know.

The point is that being a WDC is great title, drivers skills are needed, no one is in F1 by accident (almost), but it's also not a coincident that Jenson Button was considered as a clown and washed up driver in Honda just to become a WDC next year :) Or Vettel could be a king in a car 1s/lap faster than others and then failed in a equal machinery, it's just not that simple to say - he was better because in this year he scored 1 point more - it's a noob thinking


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:30 am 
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Mayox wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayox wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mayox wrote:
Tell me a driver who never drive a top car and community thinks he's very top level? Sunday fan will never notice it. Imagine Alonso started his career 5 years ago, would someone think he's great? don't think so :)

Tbh comparing Kubica and Massa is just bad, Kubica outperformed Massa fair and square on track or in quali multiple times driving a way slower car every single time, it's not even close.

The poster clearly said that Kubica was better than Massa.

In Alonso's last 5 years in F1 he beat 2 world champions, Kubica went nip and tuck with Heidfeld who never won a GP.


C'mon :) World champion in F1 is not the definition of great results every year, do i really have to explain this here? Where was Lewis between 2008 and 2014? He lost his skills suddenly and couldn't drive?

Look at your thinking - Alonso beat world champion! (Kimi) and Kubica struggled with Nick (0 wins!). Nick and Kimi were teammates one day, Nick was better... He was also better than Massa.

My point being that things point to Alonso making shorter shrift of Heidfeld than what Kubica did, ultimately he had not done enough to prove himself to be on the very highest level but certainly he was very good.


Of course he didn't do enough, guess everyone knows why, but I can''t remember a driver who ever proved to be very top level without driving a top level car and win titles - only this matters in F1.

Well, backing to the topic... Domenicali was one of the first persons in hospital, Kubica in fact was signed to Ferrari, some well informed people were writing about this way before Kubica said this. Maybe he would fail in Ferrari, maybe he would be already multiple WDC, we don't know and we will never know.

The point is that being a WDC is great title, drivers skills are needed, no one is in F1 by accident (almost), but it's also not a coincident that Jenson Button was considered as a clown and washed up driver in Honda just to become a WDC next year :) Or Vettel could be a king in a car 1s/lap faster than others and then failed in a equal machinery, it's just not that simple to say - he was better because in this year he scored 1 point more - it's a noob thinking

It's not like he wasn't given the chance as per the tread title but he chose to do something that is more dangerous than F1 which ruined his F1 career.

Button was not considered an elite driver, winning a title doesn't necessarily elevate you to that level, to be considered to be elite you have to prove that at the against the very best and we would have seen if that was the case with Kubica in 2012, also I believe I already said that Kubica could have been a WDC given the right kind of opportunity?

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