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 Post subject: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:01 am 
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Think this news merits a new thread...

https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/20/for ... eels-2021/

So basically there's now a tender phase for suppliers which runs until the 31st of August.

The wheels will go from 13" to 18".
Also, the front tyres width will be reduced to 270mm and tyre blankets will not be allowed anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:02 am 
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Well that was what kept Michelin out, so maybe they’ll be a contender again. And no tyre warmers means the tyres will have to be less thermally sensitive, which can only be good IMO

One strange thing is that the current tyre format will be used for the first year, which would surely give Pirelli an advantage and also dissuade others, as the investment to design a tyre for a single season might be prohibitive for newcomers?


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:38 am 
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Honestly never been a fan, I think they look out of place. Maybe it's just because it's different though and they will grow on me.


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:12 am 
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I always preferred the look of the 18s.

I hope they stick to their (wheel nut) guns this time, and do actually drop the tyre blankets. they backed down on this a couple of years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Well that was what kept Michelin out, so maybe they’ll be a contender again. And no tyre warmers means the tyres will have to be less thermally sensitive, which can only be good IMO

One strange thing is that the current tyre format will be used for the first year, which would surely give Pirelli an advantage and also dissuade others, as the investment to design a tyre for a single season might be prohibitive for newcomers?

It makes sense to change it when they do as the cars should be going through a redesign anyway, to change the tyres a year earlier would cause more costs and headaches for the teams.
Hopefully if other suppliers win tender Pirelli will do one extra year to avoid the double set up costs...


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:28 pm 
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I'm all for this change. 13s are out of date and serve no purpose. And if there's a potential for Michelin to return then I say that's a good thing

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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:31 pm 
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Ill await with baited breath the ditching of the blankets; we've been down this road before, and if enough people bleat about the safety aspect, the lawyers start getting twitchy.

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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:59 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Ill await with baited breath the ditching of the blankets; we've been down this road before, and if enough people bleat about the safety aspect, the lawyers start getting twitchy.

The difference here is they seem to be planning no tyre warmers from the start, instead of introducing it when tyres have already been developed.
Not convinced it will happen, but think there is more chance this time...


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:43 pm 
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This seems all to the good for me. I have never much liked tire warmers. Indycar, IMSA, WEC, and even Nascar have all done very well without tire warmers. The tire mfg(s) will have to make tires that operate over a wider temperature range.

The only possible downside is that with less profile in the height of the tire, the engineers are free to make the car's ride somewhat rougher. During the ground effects days of the 1980s the cars became incredibly rough riding to maintain the very narrow ride height tolerances that ground effects required for maximum effective down force. We saw this in World Sportscar and IMSA, where they allowed large diameter rims and low profile tires. The current higher profile tires removes some of the control the suspension designers have over the way the suspension performs. The compression and rebound of the cross section of the tire is what it is and is not in the control of spring rates and shock absorber dampening. It can only be controlled by tire pressure.

1980s vintage prototype sports cars with large diameter wheels.

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Source: https://www.supercars.net/

(Edit) For comparison here is Indycar's wheel and tire specifications

Wheel Size:
Front: 15 inches diameter, 10 inches wide. Minimum weight: 13.48 pounds
Rear: 15 inches diameter, 14 inches wide. Minimum weight: 14.7 pounds

Tires: Firestone Firehawk

Front diameter: 26 inches maximum, 25 inches minimum @ 35 psi
Rear diameter: 27.5 inches maximum, 26.5 inches minimum @ 35 psi


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:18 am 
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mcdo wrote:
I'm all for this change. 13s are out of date and serve no purpose.


The 13" wheels were FIA's efforts to limit the size of the brakes, and serve that purpose even today. You have to design your brakes to work within the space allotted. Go from 13" wheels to 18" wheels and the brake discs will grow in diameter (unless regulated by new rule).

No opinion here whether that's a good or bad consequence. Might be interesting to see some 8G-9G braking forces if the drivers don't pass out. And just imagine a 5'3" tall driver with neck muscles bigger than his thighs. :lol:

Also, 18s will probably spell the end to stretching track limits if the current tire dimensions remain in place (I hope). With so little sidewall height, the sausage kerbs at some tracks will destroy rims in a heartbeat. Could be a safety issue? :uhoh:

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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:24 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Honestly never been a fan, I think they look out of place. Maybe it's just because it's different though and they will grow on me.


Yeah unless they start putting monster truck tires on I think we we will get used to them pretty quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:59 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Well that was what kept Michelin out, so maybe they’ll be a contender again. And no tyre warmers means the tyres will have to be less thermally sensitive, which can only be good IMO

One strange thing is that the current tyre format will be used for the first year, which would surely give Pirelli an advantage and also dissuade others, as the investment to design a tyre for a single season might be prohibitive for newcomers?

I'm just going to quote what I wrote when this was first announced, then put a link to the following article which states:

"Michelin's recommendations for a switch to 18-inch tyres, as in Formula E, have been taken up by the authorities, which we are delighted about.

"However, the demand for the supply of 13-inch tyres for the 2020 season alone, as well as the deterioration of performance as a part of the show, goes against our principles of efficient resource management and respect for the technology of a sustainable tyre


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/138398/michelin-rules-out-immediate-return-to-f1

Jesus wept. If a layman like me can see it, why on earth can't those in authority? It's almost like they were hoping it might put off potential challengers to Pirelli...


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:43 pm 
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I'm fairly sure that once they make the switch 13inch wheels will soon look odder in comparison than 18s do at the moment (if you see what I mean :? ).

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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:32 pm 
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I think this should coincide with a radical re-design of F1 cars to incorporate bigger wheels and a more aesthetic solution to the head protection element. I guess, in essence, I am suggesting they are made to look more like *gasp* Formula E cars or the Mclaren MP4-X concept.


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:50 pm 
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Underviewer wrote:
I think this should coincide with a radical re-design of F1 cars to incorporate bigger wheels and a more aesthetic solution to the head protection element. I guess, in essence, I am suggesting they are made to look more like *gasp* Formula E cars or the Mclaren MP4-X concept.

:thumbup:

There's no functional reason for these cars to remain open-wheeled and open cockpit. The only reason I can see that they have that configuration is that it was the best solution in the 1950s and the governing body have been too stubborn to allow it to change. The more we see of the Formula E cars and these 'futuristic' idealised racing car concepts, the more anachronistic the F1 cars will look.


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:55 pm 
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j man wrote:
Underviewer wrote:
I think this should coincide with a radical re-design of F1 cars to incorporate bigger wheels and a more aesthetic solution to the head protection element. I guess, in essence, I am suggesting they are made to look more like *gasp* Formula E cars or the Mclaren MP4-X concept.

:thumbup:

There's no functional reason for these cars to remain open-wheeled and open cockpit. The only reason I can see that they have that configuration is that it was the best solution in the 1950s and the governing body have been too stubborn to allow it to change. The more we see of the Formula E cars and these 'futuristic' idealised racing car concepts, the more anachronistic the F1 cars will look.


There's plenty of closed wheel racing series already. F1 doesn't need to be another. I would also guard against trying to look "futuristic" or even "modern". F1 doesn't move fast enough to be fashionable.


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:31 pm 
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The open / closed wheel racing is an interesting point. If you remove the aesthetics and historical viewpoint from the issue, what would be the downside to F1 becoming closed wheel?

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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:09 pm 
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I still dont want tyre war. It has to be one supplier for entire grid. The tyre wars were not great for F1. Pirelli have done good job of designing what was asked from them. I hope its single winner tender. Nothing against Michelin but having 2 suppliers and tyre war will be bad for smaller teams with regards to costs as well as the quality and choice with distinct possibility of favourism towards bigger teams due to competition involved.


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:18 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
I still dont want tyre war. It has to be one supplier for entire grid. The tyre wars were not great for F1. Pirelli have done good job of designing what was asked from them. I hope its single winner tender. Nothing against Michelin but having 2 suppliers and tyre war will be bad for smaller teams with regards to costs as well as the quality and choice with distinct possibility of favourism towards bigger teams due to competition involved.

Just shows how you can't please everybody. I think Pirelli have done a cr*p job and their reign as sole supplier marks almost exactly where F1 started going wrong in my eyes. I'd be ecstatic if they brought back tyre wars, because that would instantly mean a return to competition tyres, instead of the artificial nonsense we have now (although admittedly they are better than previous years.


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:29 pm 
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I would never want a tyre war either. My fear is that we'd have one tyre at least half a second faster than the other manufacturer, probably even more, no matter how good a car and driver you have, you'd never stand a chance on the wrong tyres.

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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:39 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
I would never want a tyre war either. My fear is that we'd have one tyre at least half a second faster than the other manufacturer, probably even more, no matter how good a car and driver you have, you'd never stand a chance on the wrong tyres.

I agree, it could make the sport even more lop-sided than the current engines do. 1997 threw up some bizarre results when conditions suited the Bridgestones. I think many of us were too caught up in the excitement of Hill nearly winning in an Arrows to appreciate how farcical it all was.


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:41 am 
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Zoue wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
I still dont want tyre war. It has to be one supplier for entire grid. The tyre wars were not great for F1. Pirelli have done good job of designing what was asked from them. I hope its single winner tender. Nothing against Michelin but having 2 suppliers and tyre war will be bad for smaller teams with regards to costs as well as the quality and choice with distinct possibility of favourism towards bigger teams due to competition involved.

Just shows how you can't please everybody. I think Pirelli have done a cr*p job and their reign as sole supplier marks almost exactly where F1 started going wrong in my eyes. I'd be ecstatic if they brought back tyre wars, because that would instantly mean a return to competition tyres, instead of the artificial nonsense we have now (although admittedly they are better than previous years.

That's a bit harsh on Pirelli, they've produced what was asked of them and done a good job of it. The issues with the current tyres are due to the FIA specifications not Pirelli


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:50 am 
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j man wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
I would never want a tyre war either. My fear is that we'd have one tyre at least half a second faster than the other manufacturer, probably even more, no matter how good a car and driver you have, you'd never stand a chance on the wrong tyres.

I agree, it could make the sport even more lop-sided than the current engines do. 1997 threw up some bizarre results when conditions suited the Bridgestones. I think many of us were too caught up in the excitement of Hill nearly winning in an Arrows to appreciate how farcical it all was.


I don't think it was farcical at all. People always attribute that performance to Bridgestone but no other Bridgestone runner had a particularly good race.

1997 produced some odd results partly because of Bridgestone, partly because the grid was close in performance, partly because the better drivers were not in the better cars and partly because of unreliability.

Look at that Hungary race Hill was always a Hungary specialist and the Arrows was nimble but lacking in power. The track just suited the car and the driver.


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:53 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
Zoue wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
I still dont want tyre war. It has to be one supplier for entire grid. The tyre wars were not great for F1. Pirelli have done good job of designing what was asked from them. I hope its single winner tender. Nothing against Michelin but having 2 suppliers and tyre war will be bad for smaller teams with regards to costs as well as the quality and choice with distinct possibility of favourism towards bigger teams due to competition involved.

Just shows how you can't please everybody. I think Pirelli have done a cr*p job and their reign as sole supplier marks almost exactly where F1 started going wrong in my eyes. I'd be ecstatic if they brought back tyre wars, because that would instantly mean a return to competition tyres, instead of the artificial nonsense we have now (although admittedly they are better than previous years.

That's a bit harsh on Pirelli, they've produced what was asked of them and done a good job of it. The issues with the current tyres are due to the FIA specifications not Pirelli

I don't really agree. I don't think the FIA ever specified tyres with a cripplingly-sensitive thermal window, which Pirelli foisted upon us for several years.

But I agree with the wider point that FIA is to blame overall, but I don't think Pirelli come out looking good either and I applaud Michelin for not wanting to produce rubbish tyres just for the show.


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:59 am 
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j man wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
I would never want a tyre war either. My fear is that we'd have one tyre at least half a second faster than the other manufacturer, probably even more, no matter how good a car and driver you have, you'd never stand a chance on the wrong tyres.

I agree, it could make the sport even more lop-sided than the current engines do. 1997 threw up some bizarre results when conditions suited the Bridgestones. I think many of us were too caught up in the excitement of Hill nearly winning in an Arrows to appreciate how farcical it all was.

I don't really see any difference between having a PU that's miles better than the rest or tyres which are better. F1 is all about producing the best package for maximum performance, and the tyres are pretty much the only things on the car which are designed specifically with the opposite in mind. That's why I feel very strongly that they don't belong in F1 and have done more damage to the sport than just about anything I can think of.

The era that appears to stick in everybody's minds is the Ferrari one where they underwent thousands of testing miles to produce something specifically tailored to the Ferrari package. But with virtually no testing that's not likely to be able to happen now. Manufacturers would have to supply the same spec to all their customers, in much the same way that PU suppliers do already, so I think the fears are almost wholly unwarrnated.

Tyre wars would mean tyres made for performance again. And for me that would make it more in keeping with what F1 is supposed to be about


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:56 pm 
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more complete explanation from Michelin on why they feel they can't supply. Have to say I agree with most, if not all, of what they say here

https://www.racefans.net/2018/09/03/michelin-13-inch-tyres-2020-f1-return-no-go/


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:26 pm 
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I'm not in favour of a tyre war. The guys on the wrong brand are handicapped and it stays that way for the year. However I did want to see Michelin return. They bowed out of F1 having beaten Bridgestone, I'd love to have seen if they could produce a better product than Pirelli while sticking to F1's rubbish requirements

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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:28 pm 
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How about 32" with spinners!

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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:47 am 
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Now that the excitement of the latest race has died down and I've had time to think about things, I'm left feeling somewhat frustrated and annoyed that the tyres have once again had such a dramatic impact upon the racing. Kimi pushed for half a dozen laps or so and his tyres were ruined. So once again a driver pushing has been penalized and he would have been better off taking it easy and driving well within his limits. I reckon he'd have won that on Michelin-style rubber, no question. So sad they've pulled out of the tender

Makes me really angry at the FIA and Pirelli for giving us these travesties :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:22 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Now that the excitement of the latest race has died down and I've had time to think about things, I'm left feeling somewhat frustrated and annoyed that the tyres have once again had such a dramatic impact upon the racing. Kimi pushed for half a dozen laps or so and his tyres were ruined. So once again a driver pushing has been penalized and he would have been better off taking it easy and driving well within his limits. I reckon he'd have won that on Michelin-style rubber, no question. So sad they've pulled out of the tender

Makes me really angry at the FIA and Pirelli for giving us these travesties :evil:


Not a smart comment here Zoue but a genuine question.

How would you ideally like to see the tyres and the tyre regs set up ?

Would you like to see the end of pit stops and a tyre compound you could flog the life out of for the entire race ? Optional pit stops and optional tyre compound choices each race with no restriction on use or choice?

What would be your best case scenario?

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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:37 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Now that the excitement of the latest race has died down and I've had time to think about things, I'm left feeling somewhat frustrated and annoyed that the tyres have once again had such a dramatic impact upon the racing. Kimi pushed for half a dozen laps or so and his tyres were ruined. So once again a driver pushing has been penalized and he would have been better off taking it easy and driving well within his limits. I reckon he'd have won that on Michelin-style rubber, no question. So sad they've pulled out of the tender

Makes me really angry at the FIA and Pirelli for giving us these travesties :evil:


Not a smart comment here Zoue but a genuine question.

How would you ideally like to see the tyres and the tyre regs set up ?

Would you like to see the end of pit stops and a tyre compound you could flog the life out of for the entire race ? Optional pit stops and optional tyre compound choices each race with no restriction on use or choice?

What would be your best case scenario?

Fair questions. I posted a link to Michelin's comments earlier in the thread and I agree with most of the suggestions there.

Bottom line is I would like tyres geared towards performance, not ones which are geared towards limiting that performance. The current ethos is to make tyres that try to catch the driver out or otherwise cause an upset and I'm strongly opposed to that.

There is some misconception that less fragile tyres would just promote processional racing, but I'm of the opinion that performance tyres would help enable a driver to stay closer to the car in front, without having to worry about what it's doing to his rubber. The last race where Kimi was pushing for half a dozen laps or so - I'd like to see races where drivers push like that all race, like Mansell did in 1987 at Silverstone when he broke the lap record something like 11 times over 28 laps when chasing down Piquet for that famous win. He'd have run out of puff long before the end if he's tried that with Pirelli rubber. I'm absolutely not a fan of the rubber that forces a driver to stay well within his limits for fear of giving himself problems later on. And yes, I'm aware that that takes a certain skill, too, but it's not something that I enjoy as a spectator.

I'll just quote what Michelin said in the above link:

“In Moto GP for example we bring three choices at front and rear and at the end of the race you’ve got a fight and you have very often on the podium three different combinations of tyres there. And we believe that’s something that would make sense also in other sports.”

“We believe the tyre needs to be designed so you give the possibility to the driver to express the maximum of his talent and to fight as much as possible. And that’s not to say ‘OK I’m going to have to be careful, I’ve got one or two strikes possible and if I miss it, I cannot fight any more’.

“We’ve been able to demonstrate other in series, and it’s not just us saying that it’s when you talk to drivers who are able to race in both, not only Fernando [Alonso], Mark [Webber] has told us before, Nico [Hulkenberg] also, that they say ‘wow, it’s possible to attack and try again and it feels great’. So we believe this is the right way to go.”

F1 began using high-degradation tyres in 2011, a change which coincided with Pirelli replacing Bridgestone as the sport’s official rubber supplier. Couasnon said it is “a little bit sad” that the philosophy has stuck. “We have had rules that were put in place for almost a decade. You’ve got some young drivers who never had the chance to really see what true driving, true racing can be. That’s a little bit unfortunate.”


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:14 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Now that the excitement of the latest race has died down and I've had time to think about things, I'm left feeling somewhat frustrated and annoyed that the tyres have once again had such a dramatic impact upon the racing. Kimi pushed for half a dozen laps or so and his tyres were ruined. So once again a driver pushing has been penalized and he would have been better off taking it easy and driving well within his limits. I reckon he'd have won that on Michelin-style rubber, no question. So sad they've pulled out of the tender

Makes me really angry at the FIA and Pirelli for giving us these travesties :evil:


Not a smart comment here Zoue but a genuine question.

How would you ideally like to see the tyres and the tyre regs set up ?

Would you like to see the end of pit stops and a tyre compound you could flog the life out of for the entire race ? Optional pit stops and optional tyre compound choices each race with no restriction on use or choice?

What would be your best case scenario?

Fair questions. I posted a link to Michelin's comments earlier in the thread and I agree with most of the suggestions there.

Bottom line is I would like tyres geared towards performance, not ones which are geared towards limiting that performance. The current ethos is to make tyres that try to catch the driver out or otherwise cause an upset and I'm strongly opposed to that.

There is some misconception that less fragile tyres would just promote processional racing, but I'm of the opinion that performance tyres would help enable a driver to stay closer to the car in front, without having to worry about what it's doing to his rubber. The last race where Kimi was pushing for half a dozen laps or so - I'd like to see races where drivers push like that all race, like Mansell did in 1987 at Silverstone when he broke the lap record something like 11 times over 28 laps when chasing down Piquet for that famous win. He'd have run out of puff long before the end if he's tried that with Pirelli rubber. I'm absolutely not a fan of the rubber that forces a driver to stay well within his limits for fear of giving himself problems later on. And yes, I'm aware that that takes a certain skill, too, but it's not something that I enjoy as a spectator.

I'll just quote what Michelin said in the above link:

“In Moto GP for example we bring three choices at front and rear and at the end of the race you’ve got a fight and you have very often on the podium three different combinations of tyres there. And we believe that’s something that would make sense also in other sports.”

“We believe the tyre needs to be designed so you give the possibility to the driver to express the maximum of his talent and to fight as much as possible. And that’s not to say ‘OK I’m going to have to be careful, I’ve got one or two strikes possible and if I miss it, I cannot fight any more’.

“We’ve been able to demonstrate other in series, and it’s not just us saying that it’s when you talk to drivers who are able to race in both, not only Fernando [Alonso], Mark [Webber] has told us before, Nico [Hulkenberg] also, that they say ‘wow, it’s possible to attack and try again and it feels great’. So we believe this is the right way to go.”

F1 began using high-degradation tyres in 2011, a change which coincided with Pirelli replacing Bridgestone as the sport’s official rubber supplier. Couasnon said it is “a little bit sad” that the philosophy has stuck. “We have had rules that were put in place for almost a decade. You’ve got some young drivers who never had the chance to really see what true driving, true racing can be. That’s a little bit unfortunate.”


Thanks for that Zoue and I agree with basically all you've said here.

I don't know why the sport can't just open up the options so the teams can choose the type of race they want to run. Get rid of compulsory pit stops & compulsory use of various compounds and just come up with a process so the choice of tyres and pit stops are in the hands of the teams.

The sport doesn't really need 28 compounds. I agree with Michelins views somewhat. How about just a hard but slowish tyre that a driver could flog the bejesus out of for an entire race with little or no loss of performance, a slightly faster medium tyre that'll last about 1/2 race flat chat before it packs it in and a soft, fast tyre that'll last about 1/3 distance before it gives up the ghost. 3 tyre compounds and say to the teams "Use them anyway you want".

Either way, i'd just like to see tyres and tyre regs that give greater strategic options to the teams and fewer rules to follow. It's a constant source of frustration for me to see the governing body introduce things like the current endless variety of tyre compounds & DRS to try to spice things up then straight away regulate the proverbial out of them so we end up with every team doing the same thing and pretty much defeat the purpose they were introduced for in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:49 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Now that the excitement of the latest race has died down and I've had time to think about things, I'm left feeling somewhat frustrated and annoyed that the tyres have once again had such a dramatic impact upon the racing. Kimi pushed for half a dozen laps or so and his tyres were ruined. So once again a driver pushing has been penalized and he would have been better off taking it easy and driving well within his limits. I reckon he'd have won that on Michelin-style rubber, no question. So sad they've pulled out of the tender

Makes me really angry at the FIA and Pirelli for giving us these travesties :evil:


Not a smart comment here Zoue but a genuine question.

How would you ideally like to see the tyres and the tyre regs set up ?

Would you like to see the end of pit stops and a tyre compound you could flog the life out of for the entire race ? Optional pit stops and optional tyre compound choices each race with no restriction on use or choice?

What would be your best case scenario?

Fair questions. I posted a link to Michelin's comments earlier in the thread and I agree with most of the suggestions there.

Bottom line is I would like tyres geared towards performance, not ones which are geared towards limiting that performance. The current ethos is to make tyres that try to catch the driver out or otherwise cause an upset and I'm strongly opposed to that.

There is some misconception that less fragile tyres would just promote processional racing, but I'm of the opinion that performance tyres would help enable a driver to stay closer to the car in front, without having to worry about what it's doing to his rubber. The last race where Kimi was pushing for half a dozen laps or so - I'd like to see races where drivers push like that all race, like Mansell did in 1987 at Silverstone when he broke the lap record something like 11 times over 28 laps when chasing down Piquet for that famous win. He'd have run out of puff long before the end if he's tried that with Pirelli rubber. I'm absolutely not a fan of the rubber that forces a driver to stay well within his limits for fear of giving himself problems later on. And yes, I'm aware that that takes a certain skill, too, but it's not something that I enjoy as a spectator.

I'll just quote what Michelin said in the above link:

“In Moto GP for example we bring three choices at front and rear and at the end of the race you’ve got a fight and you have very often on the podium three different combinations of tyres there. And we believe that’s something that would make sense also in other sports.”

“We believe the tyre needs to be designed so you give the possibility to the driver to express the maximum of his talent and to fight as much as possible. And that’s not to say ‘OK I’m going to have to be careful, I’ve got one or two strikes possible and if I miss it, I cannot fight any more’.

“We’ve been able to demonstrate other in series, and it’s not just us saying that it’s when you talk to drivers who are able to race in both, not only Fernando [Alonso], Mark [Webber] has told us before, Nico [Hulkenberg] also, that they say ‘wow, it’s possible to attack and try again and it feels great’. So we believe this is the right way to go.”

F1 began using high-degradation tyres in 2011, a change which coincided with Pirelli replacing Bridgestone as the sport’s official rubber supplier. Couasnon said it is “a little bit sad” that the philosophy has stuck. “We have had rules that were put in place for almost a decade. You’ve got some young drivers who never had the chance to really see what true driving, true racing can be. That’s a little bit unfortunate.”

Well said. The Pirellis were fun to start with and welcome change from the Bridgestones which suffered from the other extreme of being largely indestructible and not requiring any real management at all on the part of the driver. But after a couple of years I did get fed up of watching drivers trundle around at 90% in races and having to drop back from following other cars out of a fear of overheating their tyres; if you watch the old Alonso vs Schumacher battle at Imola what is most striking is how Schumacher is able to follow right on Alonso's gearbox and hassle him for lap after lap without penalty. I then couldn't help but despair at the FIA declaring that the way to fix this was to add more aero to the cars rather than giving them proper tyres.

What concerned me most about watching Kimi at Monza was that the tyres didn't degrade as such, they blistered and fell apart. That is a sign of a really poor race tyre and it is not the first time we have seen it this season. I have concluded, and I understand it is also the belief of the teams, that Pirelli are just not very good at making race tyres.


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:41 pm 
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I wonder if the shift to 18" wheels means that Liberty might allow bigger brakes and then attempt a return to cast iron or steel brake rotors. This could be in line with their stated goal of standardized parts and a move in the direction of cost savings.


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:12 pm 
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I remember when Michelin were a joke.... how times change.

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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:27 am 
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ALESI wrote:
I remember when Michelin were a joke.... how times change.

Wasn't that only because of the Indy debacle? I don't recall any complaints about the Michelins aside from Ferrari questioning their legality, Indy aside they were very good race tyres.


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:31 am 
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j man wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I remember when Michelin were a joke.... how times change.

Wasn't that only because of the Indy debacle? I don't recall any complaints about the Michelins aside from Ferrari questioning their legality, Indy aside they were very good race tyres.

Yes, I'd agree. I don't recall Michelin being seen as a joke supplier for any extended period.

I miss them!


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 Post subject: Re: 18" wheels for 2021
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:11 am 
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Zoue wrote:
j man wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I remember when Michelin were a joke.... how times change.

Wasn't that only because of the Indy debacle? I don't recall any complaints about the Michelins aside from Ferrari questioning their legality, Indy aside they were very good race tyres.

Yes, I'd agree. I don't recall Michelin being seen as a joke supplier for any extended period.

I miss them!

The longer Pirelli continues to build fairy cakes for tires at the FIA's request the more of a joke supplier they become. Cementing that perception race after race.

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