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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:04 pm 
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Migen wrote:
Rockie wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.


Smh Vettel maintained the same trajectory neither was on the racing line, and there are different lines through that corner none from where Bottas was.

Also we saw last year when Max tried to pull of such against Dan how that ended up, glad Vettel turned in early as Bottas was going to spear into his sidepod.

That's my impression too.


I also find it weird how Bottas has a bit of a correction before the contact and he seems to go straight anyway, even after the contact. It is very doubtful that he'd make the corner with the speed he was carrying. I still class it as an incident, given that Vettel should have given more space, but I think that Bottas was very optimistic there


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:11 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.

Indeed Vettel was in the middle of the track and then turned in before the normal turn in point this obviously an aggressive move to dissuade Bottas, the crucial evidence for us still, judging by recent posts, is Bottas' onboard and whether Vettel had fully cleared him.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.

Indeed Vettel was in the middle of the track and then turned in before the normal turn in point this obviously an aggressive move to dissuade Bottas, the crucial evidence for us still, judging by recent posts, is Bottas' onboard and whether Vettel had fully cleared him.


I've read on the net that Bottas's camera was facing the wrong way, backwards, this is why there's no onboard from his car. Not sure how true this is


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:14 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.
I don't understand your racing line comment. Neither Vettel, nor Bottas were on the racing line. Vettel wasn't on the racing line to begin with, and he didn't defend by going off-line and didn't go back on the approach to the corner. So the racing line is no factor in determining blame.

As far a s I can tell from the shadows, Vettel was "ahead" before braking and turning in. With Bottas even further from the racing line than Vettel, I wonder where he thought he needed to start braking to make the corner fully on the inside. Because he knew he wasn't going to get any more room than Vettel had to give. Which I don't believe is specified in the rules to begin with.

The stewards said that Vettel could have given Bottas more room that being the reason they didn't penalise Bottas.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Migen wrote:
Clarky wrote:
From what I can see at no point was Vettel fully ahead.

If you take the front end, probably he was or maybe he wasnt. As a bare minimum, Vettel still was more than substantially ahead to pick the trajectory he wanted, more so than (example):

1. A Hamilton's blocking move on Hulkemberg on a strait without being fully ahead, which forced Hulk to lift/break earlier.
2. Hamilton's blocking move on Vettel on a race start albeit Vettel being half-car length alongside Hamilton's, which forced Vettel to go 2 wheel outside of the track.
Both of these happen on the last 2 years (just cant remember the exact track, but I can look it up if really needed) and no incident occurred because the driver marginally behind paid enough attention.

In a corner, the driver substantially behind (Bottas in this case) is A LOT more obliged to make sure he doesnt crash on the side (or on the back would be more appropriate in this case) of the car in front, in comparison with the 2 examples I posted above happening in the strait. Hence, Bottas is the only one to blame for what happen.

In the second incidence didn't Vettel pass Hamilton so how did Hamilton not give Vettel enough room, with respect to the Hulk I don't remember that but a Mercedes racing against a lower midfield Renault car and the Hulk was putting a move on Hamilton, really?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:21 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Migen wrote:
Rockie wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.


Smh Vettel maintained the same trajectory neither was on the racing line, and there are different lines through that corner none from where Bottas was.

Also we saw last year when Max tried to pull of such against Dan how that ended up, glad Vettel turned in early as Bottas was going to spear into his sidepod.

That's my impression too.


I also find it weird how Bottas has a bit of a correction before the contact and he seems to go straight anyway, even after the contact. It is very doubtful that he'd make the corner with the speed he was carrying. I still class it as an incident, given that Vettel should have given more space, but I think that Bottas was very optimistic there

Bottas went straight on because he had locked his front wheels trying to avoid Vettel.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.

Indeed Vettel was in the middle of the track and then turned in before the normal turn in point this obviously an aggressive move to dissuade Bottas, the crucial evidence for us still, judging by recent posts, is Bottas' onboard and whether Vettel had fully cleared him.


I've read on the net that Bottas's camera was facing the wrong way, backwards, this is why there's no onboard from his car. Not sure how true this is

No it's a different camera but they switched the feed to the rear camera.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.

Indeed Vettel was in the middle of the track and then turned in before the normal turn in point this obviously an aggressive move to dissuade Bottas, the crucial evidence for us still, judging by recent posts, is Bottas' onboard and whether Vettel had fully cleared him.


I've read on the net that Bottas's camera was facing the wrong way, backwards, this is why there's no onboard from his car. Not sure how true this is

No it's a different camera but they switched the feed to the rear camera.

Ah, ok, thank you


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:37 pm 
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Migen wrote:
Clarky wrote:
From what I can see at no point was Vettel fully ahead.

If you take the front end, probably he was or maybe he wasnt. As a bare minimum, Vettel still was more than substantially ahead to pick the trajectory he wanted, more so than (example):

1. A Hamilton's blocking move on Hulkemberg on a strait without being fully ahead, which forced Hulk to lift/break earlier.
2. Hamilton's blocking move on Vettel on a race start albeit Vettel being half-car length alongside Hamilton's, which forced Vettel to go 2 wheel outside of the track.
Both of these happen on the last 2 years (just cant remember the exact track, but I can look it up if really needed) and no incident occurred because the driver marginally behind paid enough attention.

In a corner, the driver substantially behind (Bottas in this case) is A LOT more obliged to make sure he doesnt crash on the side (or on the back would be more appropriate in this case) of the car in front, in comparison with the 2 examples I posted above happening in the strait. Hence, Bottas is the only one to blame for what happen.

Well 2 above means he had 2 wheels on the track, so according to rules is still on the track... Unless this forced them to a dangerous place not an issue .As you can't provide any other info can't fully comment on this being bad or not, though if this was also on a straight before the braking zone with enough sticky stuff to drive on is not the same situation as the Vettel/Bottas incident!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:14 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.
I don't understand your racing line comment. Neither Vettel, nor Bottas were on the racing line. Vettel wasn't on the racing line to begin with, and he didn't defend by going off-line and didn't go back on the approach to the corner. So the racing line is no factor in determining blame.

As far a s I can tell from the shadows, Vettel was "ahead" before braking and turning in. With Bottas even further from the racing line than Vettel, I wonder where he thought he needed to start braking to make the corner fully on the inside. Because he knew he wasn't going to get any more room than Vettel had to give. Which I don't believe is specified in the rules to begin with.

The stewards said that Vettel could have given Bottas more room that being the reason they didn't penalise Bottas.


If this was the verdict, the stewards are even more incompetent than first thought.

The giving room is for a car along side how do you anticipate a kamikaze divebomb? Vettel didnt turn in early nor did he need to give Bottas space he was clear of him but Bottas decide not to pull out after losing the place.

Christian Horner who was on with Martin Brundle called it immediately saying Bottas was at fault and should get a penalty dere.

The notion that Vettel should have gone wide to make that corner is beyond a joke.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:59 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.
I don't understand your racing line comment. Neither Vettel, nor Bottas were on the racing line. Vettel wasn't on the racing line to begin with, and he didn't defend by going off-line and didn't go back on the approach to the corner. So the racing line is no factor in determining blame.

As far a s I can tell from the shadows, Vettel was "ahead" before braking and turning in. With Bottas even further from the racing line than Vettel, I wonder where he thought he needed to start braking to make the corner fully on the inside. Because he knew he wasn't going to get any more room than Vettel had to give. Which I don't believe is specified in the rules to begin with.


He wasn’t on the racing line but he should have been, considering he nearly had a full car length before the braking zone. Normally there is a wide approach to that corner, and hitting the apex is not usually done. Vettel being on the outside, you would think he would have used that approach. But he decided to go shallow to block Bottas. Not necessary. The pass was done and dusted cleanly if he just took a more predictable and normal line.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:03 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.

Indeed Vettel was in the middle of the track and then turned in before the normal turn in point this obviously an aggressive move to dissuade Bottas, the crucial evidence for us still, judging by recent posts, is Bottas' onboard and whether Vettel had fully cleared him.


Yes Bottas onboard would nail it.

But yeah that’s what I’ve been saying :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:22 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Fiki wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.
I don't understand your racing line comment. Neither Vettel, nor Bottas were on the racing line. Vettel wasn't on the racing line to begin with, and he didn't defend by going off-line and didn't go back on the approach to the corner. So the racing line is no factor in determining blame.

As far a s I can tell from the shadows, Vettel was "ahead" before braking and turning in. With Bottas even further from the racing line than Vettel, I wonder where he thought he needed to start braking to make the corner fully on the inside. Because he knew he wasn't going to get any more room than Vettel had to give. Which I don't believe is specified in the rules to begin with.


He wasn’t on the racing line but he should have been, considering he nearly had a full car length before the braking zone. Normally there is a wide approach to that corner, and hitting the apex is not usually done. Vettel being on the outside, you would think he would have used that approach. But he decided to go shallow to block Bottas. Not necessary. The pass was done and dusted cleanly if he just took a more predictable and normal line.


I have heard and seen a lot of arguments on this, but this one takes the biscuit.

The driver overtaking needs to get back on the racing line to take the corner, the goalposts have certainly left the field of play.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:26 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
While I think Bottas was never making that corner in any great shape, Vettel seems to be growing a tendency to try and 'stamp' the overtake on the driver he is passing when trying to make a point/getting frustrated in recent times. I recall him doing something similar to Max at Silverstone, and certainly to Lewis in Austria this year.

Seems to be a growing trend.


Against Lewis in Austria he wasn't making a point, he was preventing a cut back from Lewis.

It's astonishing you could not figure that out even the Hamilton apologist Brundle described it as a masterclass by Vettel.


What's more astonishing is your overiding need to go on the defensive when i'm pretty much making the same point you do in your reply, albeit yours is heavily basted in your own particular brand of 'logic' and 'wit'.

Take a deep breath son, I think you need to chill.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:14 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.
I don't understand your racing line comment. Neither Vettel, nor Bottas were on the racing line. Vettel wasn't on the racing line to begin with, and he didn't defend by going off-line and didn't go back on the approach to the corner. So the racing line is no factor in determining blame.

As far a s I can tell from the shadows, Vettel was "ahead" before braking and turning in. With Bottas even further from the racing line than Vettel, I wonder where he thought he needed to start braking to make the corner fully on the inside. Because he knew he wasn't going to get any more room than Vettel had to give. Which I don't believe is specified in the rules to begin with.

The stewards said that Vettel could have given Bottas more room that being the reason they didn't penalise Bottas.


If this was the verdict, the stewards are even more incompetent than first thought.

The giving room is for a car along side how do you anticipate a kamikaze divebomb? Vettel didnt turn in early nor did he need to give Bottas space he was clear of him but Bottas decide not to pull out after losing the place.

Christian Horner who was on with Martin Brundle called it immediately saying Bottas was at fault and should get a penalty dere.

The notion that Vettel should have gone wide to make that corner is beyond a joke.

The stewards have more information than us, Bottas said that Vettel turned in early, if you watch the lines drivers normally take it looks like he turned in early, I still don't think we can be clear that Vettel was fully ahead of Bottas, Brundle said it was Vettel's fault, Horner blamed Bottas, of course who ever agrees with you is the true arbitrator.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:

The notion that Vettel should have gone wide to make that corner is beyond a joke.

The stewards have more information than us, Bottas said that Vettel turned in early, if you watch the lines drivers normally take it looks like he turned in early, I still don't think we can be clear that Vettel was fully ahead of Bottas, Brundle said it was Vettel's fault, Horner blamed Bottas, of course who ever agrees with you is the true arbitrator.


Poker, you frequently play the same game on who you choose to believe, including taking the word of the stewards. a more accurate statement might be "who ever agrees with whoever is making the post is the true arbitrator". Most of the forum, myself included is going to put more credence in outside sources who agree with our belief, to single out Rockie for it is probably a bit off.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:59 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Brundle said it was Vettel's fault
I heard him say Vettel couldn't see Bottas, in the clip on F1.com. When did Brundle say Vettel was at fault?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
Clarky wrote:
From what I can see at no point was Vettel fully ahead.

If you take the front end, probably he was or maybe he wasnt. As a bare minimum, Vettel still was more than substantially ahead to pick the trajectory he wanted, more so than (example):

1. A Hamilton's blocking move on Hulkemberg on a strait without being fully ahead, which forced Hulk to lift/break earlier.
2. Hamilton's blocking move on Vettel on a race start albeit Vettel being half-car length alongside Hamilton's, which forced Vettel to go 2 wheel outside of the track.
Both of these happen on the last 2 years (just cant remember the exact track, but I can look it up if really needed) and no incident occurred because the driver marginally behind paid enough attention.

In a corner, the driver substantially behind (Bottas in this case) is A LOT more obliged to make sure he doesnt crash on the side (or on the back would be more appropriate in this case) of the car in front, in comparison with the 2 examples I posted above happening in the strait. Hence, Bottas is the only one to blame for what happen.

In the second incidence didn't Vettel pass Hamilton so how did Hamilton not give Vettel enough room, with respect to the Hulk I don't remember that but a Mercedes racing against a lower midfield Renault car and the Hulk was putting a move on Hamilton, really?

Whats the relevance on whether Vettel got a head or not (i dont actually remember how it ended up, or the track)? The point I was making was clearly the fact that Hamilton (and other driver's too for that matter) has swerved into the path of another car before being completely a full-car length ahead, even on a strait, let alone the corners. What I remember very clearly was that it was the start of the race and that Hamilton swerved into Vettel's path with Vettel being force to go 2 wheels outside the track lines(but still on concrete) in order to avoid collision, even though he was half-car length alongside Hamilton's car.

As for Hulk, it was a fight for track position and it was Hamilton the one doing the overtaking (fallen behind on pits or maybe grid start or grid penalty!?) from the inside, but then he pulled on the outside over Hulk's path in order to prepare for the upcoming corner, before he was actually a full-car length ahead of Hulk and that forced Hulk to lift/break earlier in order to avoid collision.

Edit - Correction about Vettel-Hamilton example: Just looked it up, it was USA GP 2017 (unless there's another one similar during 2015 or 2016 seasons), Vettel was not forced outside the track, he was force to go over the pit-exit lines cause Hamilton was pulling towards Vettel even though the 2 cars were about side-by-side.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:48 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
While I think Bottas was never making that corner in any great shape, Vettel seems to be growing a tendency to try and 'stamp' the overtake on the driver he is passing when trying to make a point/getting frustrated in recent times. I recall him doing something similar to Max at Silverstone, and certainly to Lewis in Austria this year.

Seems to be a growing trend.


Against Lewis in Austria he wasn't making a point, he was preventing a cut back from Lewis.

It's astonishing you could not figure that out even the Hamilton apologist Brundle described it as a masterclass by Vettel.


What's more astonishing is your overiding need to go on the defensive when i'm pretty much making the same point you do in your reply, albeit yours is heavily basted in your own particular brand of 'logic' and 'wit'.

Take a deep breath son, I think you need to chill.


Was just correcting the notion that it was about making a point sorry if you took it the wrong way wasn't being defensive at all or being witty.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:03 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.
I don't understand your racing line comment. Neither Vettel, nor Bottas were on the racing line. Vettel wasn't on the racing line to begin with, and he didn't defend by going off-line and didn't go back on the approach to the corner. So the racing line is no factor in determining blame.

As far a s I can tell from the shadows, Vettel was "ahead" before braking and turning in. With Bottas even further from the racing line than Vettel, I wonder where he thought he needed to start braking to make the corner fully on the inside. Because he knew he wasn't going to get any more room than Vettel had to give. Which I don't believe is specified in the rules to begin with.

The stewards said that Vettel could have given Bottas more room that being the reason they didn't penalise Bottas.


If this was the verdict, the stewards are even more incompetent than first thought.

The giving room is for a car along side how do you anticipate a kamikaze divebomb? Vettel didnt turn in early nor did he need to give Bottas space he was clear of him but Bottas decide not to pull out after losing the place.

Christian Horner who was on with Martin Brundle called it immediately saying Bottas was at fault and should get a penalty dere.

The notion that Vettel should have gone wide to make that corner is beyond a joke.

The stewards have more information than us, Bottas said that Vettel turned in early, if you watch the lines drivers normally take it looks like he turned in early, I still don't think we can be clear that Vettel was fully ahead of Bottas, Brundle said it was Vettel's fault, Horner blamed Bottas, of course who ever agrees with you is the true arbitrator.


What is funny here is I remember Baku '17 the stewards gave the penalty but you didn't agree with it, I guess you taking the stewards words as gospel depends on how it suits your position.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:47 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Brundle said it was Vettel's fault
I heard him say Vettel couldn't see Bottas, in the clip on F1.com. When did Brundle say Vettel was at fault?

In the very same conversation that Horner said it was Bottas' fault, Brundle was somewhat surprised after he himself had said previously not long before that he thought it was Vettel's fault.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:06 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:

The notion that Vettel should have gone wide to make that corner is beyond a joke.

The stewards have more information than us, Bottas said that Vettel turned in early, if you watch the lines drivers normally take it looks like he turned in early, I still don't think we can be clear that Vettel was fully ahead of Bottas, Brundle said it was Vettel's fault, Horner blamed Bottas, of course who ever agrees with you is the true arbitrator.


Poker, you frequently play the same game on who you choose to believe, including taking the word of the stewards. a more accurate statement might be "who ever agrees with whoever is making the post is the true arbitrator". Most of the forum, myself included is going to put more credence in outside sources who agree with our belief, to single out Rockie for it is probably a bit off.

In this case totally ignoring what Brundle said, yeah that's a reasoned why at looking at things, by the way I'm not taking what Brundle said as gospel either.

In this particular case I think we are not able to see the whole picture, as in Bottas' onboard, ye of no faith in the stewards it seems?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:12 pm 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
Clarky wrote:
From what I can see at no point was Vettel fully ahead.

If you take the front end, probably he was or maybe he wasnt. As a bare minimum, Vettel still was more than substantially ahead to pick the trajectory he wanted, more so than (example):

1. A Hamilton's blocking move on Hulkemberg on a strait without being fully ahead, which forced Hulk to lift/break earlier.
2. Hamilton's blocking move on Vettel on a race start albeit Vettel being half-car length alongside Hamilton's, which forced Vettel to go 2 wheel outside of the track.
Both of these happen on the last 2 years (just cant remember the exact track, but I can look it up if really needed) and no incident occurred because the driver marginally behind paid enough attention.

In a corner, the driver substantially behind (Bottas in this case) is A LOT more obliged to make sure he doesnt crash on the side (or on the back would be more appropriate in this case) of the car in front, in comparison with the 2 examples I posted above happening in the strait. Hence, Bottas is the only one to blame for what happen.

In the second incidence didn't Vettel pass Hamilton so how did Hamilton not give Vettel enough room, with respect to the Hulk I don't remember that but a Mercedes racing against a lower midfield Renault car and the Hulk was putting a move on Hamilton, really?

Whats the relevance on whether Vettel got a head or not (i dont actually remember how it ended up, or the track)? The point I was making was clearly the fact that Hamilton (and other driver's too for that matter) has swerved into the path of another car before being completely a full-car length ahead, even on a strait, let alone the corners. What I remember very clearly was that it was the start of the race and that Hamilton swerved into Vettel's path with Vettel being force to go 2 wheels outside the track lines(but still on concrete) in order to avoid collision, even though he was half-car length alongside Hamilton's car.

As for Hulk, it was a fight for track position and it was Hamilton the one doing the overtaking (fallen behind on pits or maybe grid start or grid penalty!?) from the inside, but then he pulled on the outside over Hulk's path in order to prepare for the upcoming corner, before he was actually a full-car length ahead of Hulk and that forced Hulk to lift/break earlier in order to avoid collision.

Edit - Correction about Vettel-Hamilton example: Just looked it up, it was USA GP 2017 (unless there's another one similar during 2015 or 2016 seasons), Vettel was not forced outside the track, he was force to go over the pit-exit lines cause Hamilton was pulling towards Vettel even though the 2 cars were about side-by-side.

Yes I was just about to explain that then Hamilton moved back across conceding the corner to Vettel, hardly a comparison to the Bottas/Vettel incident but I guess you can see that now?

I'm clueless to the Hulk incident unless you can provide any kind of link.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:14 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I don't understand your racing line comment. Neither Vettel, nor Bottas were on the racing line. Vettel wasn't on the racing line to begin with, and he didn't defend by going off-line and didn't go back on the approach to the corner. So the racing line is no factor in determining blame.

As far a s I can tell from the shadows, Vettel was "ahead" before braking and turning in. With Bottas even further from the racing line than Vettel, I wonder where he thought he needed to start braking to make the corner fully on the inside. Because he knew he wasn't going to get any more room than Vettel had to give. Which I don't believe is specified in the rules to begin with.

The stewards said that Vettel could have given Bottas more room that being the reason they didn't penalise Bottas.


If this was the verdict, the stewards are even more incompetent than first thought.

The giving room is for a car along side how do you anticipate a kamikaze divebomb? Vettel didnt turn in early nor did he need to give Bottas space he was clear of him but Bottas decide not to pull out after losing the place.

Christian Horner who was on with Martin Brundle called it immediately saying Bottas was at fault and should get a penalty dere.

The notion that Vettel should have gone wide to make that corner is beyond a joke.

The stewards have more information than us, Bottas said that Vettel turned in early, if you watch the lines drivers normally take it looks like he turned in early, I still don't think we can be clear that Vettel was fully ahead of Bottas, Brundle said it was Vettel's fault, Horner blamed Bottas, of course who ever agrees with you is the true arbitrator.


What is funny here is I remember Baku '17 the stewards gave the penalty but you didn't agree with it, I guess you taking the stewards words as gospel depends on how it suits your position.

The Vettel/Hamilton incident?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:56 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
Clarky wrote:
From what I can see at no point was Vettel fully ahead.

If you take the front end, probably he was or maybe he wasnt. As a bare minimum, Vettel still was more than substantially ahead to pick the trajectory he wanted, more so than (example):

1. A Hamilton's blocking move on Hulkemberg on a strait without being fully ahead, which forced Hulk to lift/break earlier.
2. Hamilton's blocking move on Vettel on a race start albeit Vettel being half-car length alongside Hamilton's, which forced Vettel to go 2 wheel outside of the track.
Both of these happen on the last 2 years (just cant remember the exact track, but I can look it up if really needed) and no incident occurred because the driver marginally behind paid enough attention.

In a corner, the driver substantially behind (Bottas in this case) is A LOT more obliged to make sure he doesnt crash on the side (or on the back would be more appropriate in this case) of the car in front, in comparison with the 2 examples I posted above happening in the strait. Hence, Bottas is the only one to blame for what happen.

In the second incidence didn't Vettel pass Hamilton so how did Hamilton not give Vettel enough room, with respect to the Hulk I don't remember that but a Mercedes racing against a lower midfield Renault car and the Hulk was putting a move on Hamilton, really?

Whats the relevance on whether Vettel got a head or not (i dont actually remember how it ended up, or the track)? The point I was making was clearly the fact that Hamilton (and other driver's too for that matter) has swerved into the path of another car before being completely a full-car length ahead, even on a strait, let alone the corners. What I remember very clearly was that it was the start of the race and that Hamilton swerved into Vettel's path with Vettel being force to go 2 wheels outside the track lines(but still on concrete) in order to avoid collision, even though he was half-car length alongside Hamilton's car.

As for Hulk, it was a fight for track position and it was Hamilton the one doing the overtaking (fallen behind on pits or maybe grid start or grid penalty!?) from the inside, but then he pulled on the outside over Hulk's path in order to prepare for the upcoming corner, before he was actually a full-car length ahead of Hulk and that forced Hulk to lift/break earlier in order to avoid collision.

Edit - Correction about Vettel-Hamilton example: Just looked it up, it was USA GP 2017 (unless there's another one similar during 2015 or 2016 seasons), Vettel was not forced outside the track, he was force to go over the pit-exit lines cause Hamilton was pulling towards Vettel even though the 2 cars were about side-by-side.

Yes I was just about to explain that then Hamilton moved back across conceding the corner to Vettel, hardly a comparison to the Bottas/Vettel incident but I guess you can see that now?

I'm clueless to the Hulk incident unless you can provide any kind of link.

Sure thing it is not a like for like comparison.
But I still dont see why is it OK to force a car thats alongside yours on the strait to take evasive actions and cross pit-exit lines, but its not OK to force the car thats almost (or fully) 1 car-length behind on the inside of a corner to brake a tiny earlier... which is something that the car on the inside would have to do in any case in order to make the turn from a much narrower angle!

Well, I couldnt remember the race/track for both instances initially, but I found Vettel-Hamilton example by watching the youtube highlights of each race from the past 2 season (and the start is always included on those highlights), but for the Hulk reference, I`d probably have to watch all the races of the past 2 seasons from start to finish in order to pin point it.... impossible, so just disregard it.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:05 pm 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
If you take the front end, probably he was or maybe he wasnt. As a bare minimum, Vettel still was more than substantially ahead to pick the trajectory he wanted, more so than (example):

1. A Hamilton's blocking move on Hulkemberg on a strait without being fully ahead, which forced Hulk to lift/break earlier.
2. Hamilton's blocking move on Vettel on a race start albeit Vettel being half-car length alongside Hamilton's, which forced Vettel to go 2 wheel outside of the track.
Both of these happen on the last 2 years (just cant remember the exact track, but I can look it up if really needed) and no incident occurred because the driver marginally behind paid enough attention.

In a corner, the driver substantially behind (Bottas in this case) is A LOT more obliged to make sure he doesnt crash on the side (or on the back would be more appropriate in this case) of the car in front, in comparison with the 2 examples I posted above happening in the strait. Hence, Bottas is the only one to blame for what happen.

In the second incidence didn't Vettel pass Hamilton so how did Hamilton not give Vettel enough room, with respect to the Hulk I don't remember that but a Mercedes racing against a lower midfield Renault car and the Hulk was putting a move on Hamilton, really?

Whats the relevance on whether Vettel got a head or not (i dont actually remember how it ended up, or the track)? The point I was making was clearly the fact that Hamilton (and other driver's too for that matter) has swerved into the path of another car before being completely a full-car length ahead, even on a strait, let alone the corners. What I remember very clearly was that it was the start of the race and that Hamilton swerved into Vettel's path with Vettel being force to go 2 wheels outside the track lines(but still on concrete) in order to avoid collision, even though he was half-car length alongside Hamilton's car.

As for Hulk, it was a fight for track position and it was Hamilton the one doing the overtaking (fallen behind on pits or maybe grid start or grid penalty!?) from the inside, but then he pulled on the outside over Hulk's path in order to prepare for the upcoming corner, before he was actually a full-car length ahead of Hulk and that forced Hulk to lift/break earlier in order to avoid collision.

Edit - Correction about Vettel-Hamilton example: Just looked it up, it was USA GP 2017 (unless there's another one similar during 2015 or 2016 seasons), Vettel was not forced outside the track, he was force to go over the pit-exit lines cause Hamilton was pulling towards Vettel even though the 2 cars were about side-by-side.

Yes I was just about to explain that then Hamilton moved back across conceding the corner to Vettel, hardly a comparison to the Bottas/Vettel incident but I guess you can see that now?

I'm clueless to the Hulk incident unless you can provide any kind of link.

Sure thing it is not a like for like comparison.
But I still dont see why is it OK to force a car thats alongside yours on the strait to take evasive actions and cross pit-exit lines, but its not OK to force the car thats almost (or fully) 1 car-length behind on the inside of a corner to brake a tiny earlier... which is something that the car on the inside would have to do in any case in order to make the turn from a much narrower angle!

Well, I couldnt remember the race/track for both instances initially, but I found Vettel-Hamilton example by watching the youtube highlights of each race from the past 2 season (and the start is always included on those highlights), but for the Hulk reference, I`d probably have to watch all the races of the past 2 seasons from start to finish in order to pin point it.... impossible, so just disregard it.

Still the 2 incidents are entirely different, one the passing car was on the inside the other the passing car was on the outside, one the passing car on the inside had more of an overlap and was gaining ground, the other the defending car on the inside was losing ground and had hardly any over lap if any?

Hamilton recognised he had lost the position after initially putting the squeeze on and conceded the position, Vettel felt he had won the position and then put the squeeze on, two entirely different situations.

The pitlane entrance is still part of track, it's tarmacked after all.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:56 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Brundle said it was Vettel's fault
I heard him say Vettel couldn't see Bottas, in the clip on F1.com. When did Brundle say Vettel was at fault?

In the very same conversation that Horner said it was Bottas' fault, Brundle was somewhat surprised after he himself had said previously not long before that he thought it was Vettel's fault.
And neither explained why they thought so? How careless, somebody ought to have asked them. Too afraid to risk a little bit of controversy, perhaps?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:00 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Brundle said it was Vettel's fault
I heard him say Vettel couldn't see Bottas, in the clip on F1.com. When did Brundle say Vettel was at fault?

In the very same conversation that Horner said it was Bottas' fault, Brundle was somewhat surprised after he himself had said previously not long before that he thought it was Vettel's fault.
And neither explained why they thought so? How careless, somebody ought to have asked them. Too afraid to risk a little bit of controversy, perhaps?

They probably did, I myself was in partial shock so probably not listening, I do tend not to listen to Horner in particular.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:03 am 
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Of course you don't.
;)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:35 am 
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Blake wrote:
Of course you don't.
;)

Because he blamed Bottas, what difference does it make to me if Bottas got penalised or not, he got penalised against Ricciardo, big deal.

I'm sure you hang on to everything that Horner has to say, or maybe not?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:57 am 
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Fiki wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.
I don't understand your racing line comment. Neither Vettel, nor Bottas were on the racing line. Vettel wasn't on the racing line to begin with, and he didn't defend by going off-line and didn't go back on the approach to the corner. So the racing line is no factor in determining blame.

As far a s I can tell from the shadows, Vettel was "ahead" before braking and turning in. With Bottas even further from the racing line than Vettel, I wonder where he thought he needed to start braking to make the corner fully on the inside. Because he knew he wasn't going to get any more room than Vettel had to give. Which I don't believe is specified in the rules to begin with.


This is what is being overlooked. Bottas line with that speed on the inside of that corner was optimistic to say the least. It was clearly a mistake from Bottas, going too hot on older tyres and having little chance of making the corner from that position without locking up and overshooting it. Vettel did close the door sharper than he should have, but there's no issue in the rules with that.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.
I don't understand your racing line comment. Neither Vettel, nor Bottas were on the racing line. Vettel wasn't on the racing line to begin with, and he didn't defend by going off-line and didn't go back on the approach to the corner. So the racing line is no factor in determining blame.

As far a s I can tell from the shadows, Vettel was "ahead" before braking and turning in. With Bottas even further from the racing line than Vettel, I wonder where he thought he needed to start braking to make the corner fully on the inside. Because he knew he wasn't going to get any more room than Vettel had to give. Which I don't believe is specified in the rules to begin with.


This is what is being overlooked. Bottas line with that speed on the inside of that corner was optimistic to say the least. It was clearly a mistake from Bottas, going too hot on older tyres and having little chance of making the corner from that position without locking up and overshooting it. Vettel did close the door sharper than he should have, but there's no issue in the rules with that.
You have made me go over the reporting about this incident once again. I mistakenly thought someone had written the stewards had said both could have done more to avoid the accident, but in fact Mort Canard posted what Whiting had said - not the stewards. That makes sense, as there is no report from the stewards about this incident, and Autosport reported it had not been investigated by them.
That means, in my view, that Mr Whiting himself decided it was a racing incident, and did not report it to the stewards in the first place. Of course, as we know, the stewards may start an investigation on their own, if they see an incident, but they clearly didn't. And that is something I find annoying, because I still don't see how Vettel could possibly be attributed a significant part of the blame for it.

It's not that I wish to see Bottas punished, but such judgements will encourage distrust in race control, and potentially the stewards. As it happened, Whiting was taken off the hook because of the wallop Bottas dealt out to Ricciardo, when an investigation could not be avoided. But I cannot see the Bottas/Vettel incident as having been dealt with correctly.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:30 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.
I don't understand your racing line comment. Neither Vettel, nor Bottas were on the racing line. Vettel wasn't on the racing line to begin with, and he didn't defend by going off-line and didn't go back on the approach to the corner. So the racing line is no factor in determining blame.

As far a s I can tell from the shadows, Vettel was "ahead" before braking and turning in. With Bottas even further from the racing line than Vettel, I wonder where he thought he needed to start braking to make the corner fully on the inside. Because he knew he wasn't going to get any more room than Vettel had to give. Which I don't believe is specified in the rules to begin with.


This is what is being overlooked. Bottas line with that speed on the inside of that corner was optimistic to say the least. It was clearly a mistake from Bottas, going too hot on older tyres and having little chance of making the corner from that position without locking up and overshooting it. Vettel did close the door sharper than he should have, but there's no issue in the rules with that.
You have made me go over the reporting about this incident once again. I mistakenly thought someone had written the stewards had said both could have done more to avoid the accident, but in fact Mort Canard posted what Whiting had said - not the stewards. That makes sense, as there is no report from the stewards about this incident, and Autosport reported it had not been investigated by them.
That means, in my view, that Mr Whiting himself decided it was a racing incident, and did not report it to the stewards in the first place. Of course, as we know, the stewards may start an investigation on their own, if they see an incident, but they clearly didn't. And that is something I find annoying, because I still don't see how Vettel could possibly be attributed a significant part of the blame for it.

It's not that I wish to see Bottas punished, but such judgements will encourage distrust in race control, and potentially the stewards. As it happened, Whiting was taken off the hook because of the wallop Bottas dealt out to Ricciardo, when an investigation could not be avoided. But I cannot see the Bottas/Vettel incident as having been dealt with correctly.


Agreed. The way it was reported though ("FIA race director Charlie Whiting believes the stewards did not issue a penalty for the collision between Valtteri Bottas and Sebastian Vettel because neither driver was chiefly to blame" - https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/29/whi ... collision/) makes me think that it was investigated but not penalised.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:00 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
kleefton wrote:
My main problem with Vettel remains that he went off the racing line to cut off Bottas, which is why he has to take some of the blame. I don’t buy the narrative that Bottas wouldn’t have made the corner. He looked a bit out of control but only because he didn’t expect Vettel to take that line. His post race comments do state that he was surprised that Vettel moved in so early. And it is what I see every time I watch the footage.
I don't understand your racing line comment. Neither Vettel, nor Bottas were on the racing line. Vettel wasn't on the racing line to begin with, and he didn't defend by going off-line and didn't go back on the approach to the corner. So the racing line is no factor in determining blame.

As far a s I can tell from the shadows, Vettel was "ahead" before braking and turning in. With Bottas even further from the racing line than Vettel, I wonder where he thought he needed to start braking to make the corner fully on the inside. Because he knew he wasn't going to get any more room than Vettel had to give. Which I don't believe is specified in the rules to begin with.


This is what is being overlooked. Bottas line with that speed on the inside of that corner was optimistic to say the least. It was clearly a mistake from Bottas, going too hot on older tyres and having little chance of making the corner from that position without locking up and overshooting it. Vettel did close the door sharper than he should have, but there's no issue in the rules with that.
You have made me go over the reporting about this incident once again. I mistakenly thought someone had written the stewards had said both could have done more to avoid the accident, but in fact Mort Canard posted what Whiting had said - not the stewards. That makes sense, as there is no report from the stewards about this incident, and Autosport reported it had not been investigated by them.
That means, in my view, that Mr Whiting himself decided it was a racing incident, and did not report it to the stewards in the first place. Of course, as we know, the stewards may start an investigation on their own, if they see an incident, but they clearly didn't. And that is something I find annoying, because I still don't see how Vettel could possibly be attributed a significant part of the blame for it.

It's not that I wish to see Bottas punished, but such judgements will encourage distrust in race control, and potentially the stewards. As it happened, Whiting was taken off the hook because of the wallop Bottas dealt out to Ricciardo, when an investigation could not be avoided. But I cannot see the Bottas/Vettel incident as having been dealt with correctly.


Agreed. The way it was reported though ("FIA race director Charlie Whiting believes the stewards did not issue a penalty for the collision between Valtteri Bottas and Sebastian Vettel because neither driver was chiefly to blame" - https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/29/whi ... collision/) makes me think that it was investigated but not penalised.
Well, it actually doesn't say the stewards investigated it, and there is no stewards' report that proves they did. I think it is possible they indeed thought it was a racing incident, but in that case I can't agree with them. It is also possible they were still occupied when this happened, and the obviously worse accident with Ricciardo claimed their attention before they got round to it.

I wish I had recorded the race, if only to be able to see whether it was reported to the stewards. Whiting seems to indicate they were aware, but it's not nearly clear enough. Thanks for that link anyway!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:02 am 
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Salvadoray wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/45000927

Nothing else to add.

Really, how about even a short introduction to what you're linking?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:43 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Salvadoray wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/45000927

Nothing else to add.

Really, how about even a short introduction to what you're linking?


Fair enough, my apologies.

Linked please find Palmer's assessment of the race, particularly the Bottas/Vettel incident, which sums up who is responsible objectively and accurately.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:56 am 
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Salvadoray wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Salvadoray wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/45000927

Nothing else to add.

Really, how about even a short introduction to what you're linking?


Fair enough, my apologies.

Linked please find Palmer's assessment of the race, particularly the Bottas/Vettel incident, which sums up who is responsible objectively and accurately.

Cheers! :thumbup:

Good read.

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Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:46 pm 
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