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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:14 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Fiki wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
No one seems to be commenting on the Ricciardo incident in the same way they are the Vettel one. Now although I do see Bottas as at fault and have no issue with the penalty, it was clear Bottas was going to understeer (Horner said it as they approached the corner talking to the Sky commentators) and it was also clear Dan was going to get past before the end of the race; why didn't he make sure he didn't put himself in a potentially race ending accident?
If you defend the inside approaching the corner, than you are expected to stay on the inside - at least to the apex. Bottas was the only one who knew how much grip he had, and Ricciardo left him more room than needed or required. What is there to discuss?

As it says in my post, he knew Bottas was damaged and may understeer, Horner clearly commented on it just before the incident too, so why not bide your time when you will clearly be past before the race end anyway...
The fact he knew the car was damaged does not mean he knew just how much downforce/braking capacity Bottas would have lost. The only one who would have a good idea of that was Bottas only. He chose to defend the inside, which means he was responsible for not understeering so much as to touch an outside attacker. As long as Ricciardo gave as much room as he did, all was well; at least from a sportsmanship point of view.
Edit: as for not waiting a bit longer; Ricciardo had to be ready to take advantage of whatever opportunity the rest of the race would throw his way.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:52 pm 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

If you're being overtaken you are almost always going to have to adjust the line you would have taken. That's the way any pass works unless it's done in a straight line. Of course not all passes up the inside work out but we saw many times from Ricciardo and many drivers before him though out many years of F1 that an out breaking move up the inside is a standard pass.

Yes, passes on the inside will keep occurring for different reasons: just outright faster car, or having fresher tires and better grip as result of that. But Bottas had neither of those 2 (Vettel had them, together with track position).

Bottas wasn't passing, Bottas was defending.

Defending what exactly? He had already lost the track position before even entering the breaking zone for that corner. He was a full car length behind as soon as they passed under the bridge and probably only made few centimeter of grounds relative to Vettel, under breaking.

Image

If you disregard whatever happen prior to this frame, you could even be led into thinking that maybe Bottas tried a dive-bomb sort of move (make way for me, or we crash... but luckily Vettel still remained considerably ahead on the turn in).

Edit:
Image

Now the above is how much space Hamilton left for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, just before impact... and I simply dont see the 1 car-width space left in there. Which brings up the question... why should Vettel have left space for Bottas yesterday, at a time where Hamilton wasnt asked or questioned about doing the same for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, even though Bottas had a more considerable part of his car alongside Hamilton's in comparison with what he had with Vettel yesterday!

The difference, of course, is that Hamilton was in front of Bottas in 2016 and Valteri was trying to make a pass. In the incident with Vettel, it was Vettel trying to make a pass. That changes the dynamic of the incident. When making a pass, you have to make it cleanly.

I think it's a racing incident. Vettel would have been wise to leave more room but Valteri also could have braked a bit earlier.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:47 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

If you're being overtaken you are almost always going to have to adjust the line you would have taken. That's the way any pass works unless it's done in a straight line. Of course not all passes up the inside work out but we saw many times from Ricciardo and many drivers before him though out many years of F1 that an out breaking move up the inside is a standard pass.

Yes, passes on the inside will keep occurring for different reasons: just outright faster car, or having fresher tires and better grip as result of that. But Bottas had neither of those 2 (Vettel had them, together with track position).

Bottas wasn't passing, Bottas was defending.

Defending what exactly? He had already lost the track position before even entering the breaking zone for that corner. He was a full car length behind as soon as they passed under the bridge and probably only made few centimeter of grounds relative to Vettel, under breaking.

Image

If you disregard whatever happen prior to this frame, you could even be led into thinking that maybe Bottas tried a dive-bomb sort of move (make way for me, or we crash... but luckily Vettel still remained considerably ahead on the turn in).

Edit:
Image

Now the above is how much space Hamilton left for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, just before impact... and I simply dont see the 1 car-width space left in there. Which brings up the question... why should Vettel have left space for Bottas yesterday, at a time where Hamilton wasnt asked or questioned about doing the same for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, even though Bottas had a more considerable part of his car alongside Hamilton's in comparison with what he had with Vettel yesterday!

The difference, of course, is that Hamilton was in front of Bottas in 2016 and Valteri was trying to make a pass. In the incident with Vettel, it was Vettel trying to make a pass. That changes the dynamic of the incident. When making a pass, you have to make it cleanly.

I think it's a racing incident. Vettel would have been wise to leave more room but Valteri also could have braked a bit earlier.


What sort of rubbish take is this?

Do you dislike Vettel so much that you cant be rationale? Looking at that image he was clear of him before getting on the brakes as you can see his DRS wide open, Bottas then proceeds to late brake which causes the accident.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:02 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
Yes, passes on the inside will keep occurring for different reasons: just outright faster car, or having fresher tires and better grip as result of that. But Bottas had neither of those 2 (Vettel had them, together with track position).

Bottas wasn't passing, Bottas was defending.

Defending what exactly? He had already lost the track position before even entering the breaking zone for that corner. He was a full car length behind as soon as they passed under the bridge and probably only made few centimeter of grounds relative to Vettel, under breaking.

Image

If you disregard whatever happen prior to this frame, you could even be led into thinking that maybe Bottas tried a dive-bomb sort of move (make way for me, or we crash... but luckily Vettel still remained considerably ahead on the turn in).

Edit:
Image

Now the above is how much space Hamilton left for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, just before impact... and I simply dont see the 1 car-width space left in there. Which brings up the question... why should Vettel have left space for Bottas yesterday, at a time where Hamilton wasnt asked or questioned about doing the same for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, even though Bottas had a more considerable part of his car alongside Hamilton's in comparison with what he had with Vettel yesterday!

The difference, of course, is that Hamilton was in front of Bottas in 2016 and Valteri was trying to make a pass. In the incident with Vettel, it was Vettel trying to make a pass. That changes the dynamic of the incident. When making a pass, you have to make it cleanly.

I think it's a racing incident. Vettel would have been wise to leave more room but Valteri also could have braked a bit earlier.

You are judging the incident on what happen some 300 meters + before arriving to that corner (thats when Vettel was trying to make the pass). Practically (as shown on the image I posted above), Vettel had already completed the pass long before arriving into the corner where the incident occurred.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:03 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
What sort of rubbish take is this?

Do you dislike Vettel so much that you cant be rationale? Looking at that image he was clear of him before getting on the brakes as you can see his DRS wide open, Bottas then proceeds to late brake which causes the accident.


Why didn't Vettel leave space for the car he knew was on the inside.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:04 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
What sort of rubbish take is this?

Do you dislike Vettel so much that you cant be rationale? Looking at that image he was clear of him before getting on the brakes as you can see his DRS wide open, Bottas then proceeds to late brake which causes the accident.

Why didn't Vettel leave space for the car he knew was on the inside.

Presumably because he thought Bottas wasn't going to contest the position too much on his dead tyres.

Or, alternatively, because Vettel has a well-established pattern of dubious spacial awareness. Take your pick.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:04 pm 
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Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
Yes, passes on the inside will keep occurring for different reasons: just outright faster car, or having fresher tires and better grip as result of that. But Bottas had neither of those 2 (Vettel had them, together with track position).

Bottas wasn't passing, Bottas was defending.

Defending what exactly? He had already lost the track position before even entering the breaking zone for that corner. He was a full car length behind as soon as they passed under the bridge and probably only made few centimeter of grounds relative to Vettel, under breaking.

Image

If you disregard whatever happen prior to this frame, you could even be led into thinking that maybe Bottas tried a dive-bomb sort of move (make way for me, or we crash... but luckily Vettel still remained considerably ahead on the turn in).

Edit:
Image

Now the above is how much space Hamilton left for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, just before impact... and I simply dont see the 1 car-width space left in there. Which brings up the question... why should Vettel have left space for Bottas yesterday, at a time where Hamilton wasnt asked or questioned about doing the same for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, even though Bottas had a more considerable part of his car alongside Hamilton's in comparison with what he had with Vettel yesterday!

The difference, of course, is that Hamilton was in front of Bottas in 2016 and Valteri was trying to make a pass. In the incident with Vettel, it was Vettel trying to make a pass. That changes the dynamic of the incident. When making a pass, you have to make it cleanly.

I think it's a racing incident. Vettel would have been wise to leave more room but Valteri also could have braked a bit earlier.

You are judging the incident on what happen some 300 meters + before arriving to that corner (thats when Vettel was trying to make the pass). Practically (as shown on the image I posted above), Vettel had already completed the pass long before arriving into the corner where the incident occurred.

To complete the pass he would have had to make the corner cleanly with the lead. He certainly COULD have done that had he left more room or had Bottas backed out but the fact is that he had not yet completed the pass.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:37 pm 
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I’m not a big fan of Vettel, but I don’t see him doing too much wrong here. Bottas made a desperate, late-braking lunge down the inside, with no chance of making the corner...
He had a good race up until this point, then it went downhill fast.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:38 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Bottas wasn't passing, Bottas was defending.

Defending what exactly? He had already lost the track position before even entering the breaking zone for that corner. He was a full car length behind as soon as they passed under the bridge and probably only made few centimeter of grounds relative to Vettel, under breaking.

Image

If you disregard whatever happen prior to this frame, you could even be led into thinking that maybe Bottas tried a dive-bomb sort of move (make way for me, or we crash... but luckily Vettel still remained considerably ahead on the turn in).

Edit:
Image

Now the above is how much space Hamilton left for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, just before impact... and I simply dont see the 1 car-width space left in there. Which brings up the question... why should Vettel have left space for Bottas yesterday, at a time where Hamilton wasnt asked or questioned about doing the same for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, even though Bottas had a more considerable part of his car alongside Hamilton's in comparison with what he had with Vettel yesterday!

The difference, of course, is that Hamilton was in front of Bottas in 2016 and Valteri was trying to make a pass. In the incident with Vettel, it was Vettel trying to make a pass. That changes the dynamic of the incident. When making a pass, you have to make it cleanly.

I think it's a racing incident. Vettel would have been wise to leave more room but Valteri also could have braked a bit earlier.

You are judging the incident on what happen some 300 meters + before arriving to that corner (thats when Vettel was trying to make the pass). Practically (as shown on the image I posted above), Vettel had already completed the pass long before arriving into the corner where the incident occurred.

To complete the pass he would have had to make the corner cleanly with the lead. He certainly COULD have done that had he left more room or had Bottas backed out but the fact is that he had not yet completed the pass.

Does that rule applies to Vettel only and nobody else? Just saying cause I believe we've seen plenty of overtakes completed on the straits where the car on the outside then didnt leave a car-width space on the upcoming turn. I dont see why Vettel should be held partly responsible for Bottas' late-breaking.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:02 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
Defending what exactly? He had already lost the track position before even entering the breaking zone for that corner. He was a full car length behind as soon as they passed under the bridge and probably only made few centimeter of grounds relative to Vettel, under breaking.

Image

If you disregard whatever happen prior to this frame, you could even be led into thinking that maybe Bottas tried a dive-bomb sort of move (make way for me, or we crash... but luckily Vettel still remained considerably ahead on the turn in).

Edit:
Image

Now the above is how much space Hamilton left for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, just before impact... and I simply dont see the 1 car-width space left in there. Which brings up the question... why should Vettel have left space for Bottas yesterday, at a time where Hamilton wasnt asked or questioned about doing the same for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, even though Bottas had a more considerable part of his car alongside Hamilton's in comparison with what he had with Vettel yesterday!

The difference, of course, is that Hamilton was in front of Bottas in 2016 and Valteri was trying to make a pass. In the incident with Vettel, it was Vettel trying to make a pass. That changes the dynamic of the incident. When making a pass, you have to make it cleanly.

I think it's a racing incident. Vettel would have been wise to leave more room but Valteri also could have braked a bit earlier.


What sort of rubbish take is this?

Do you dislike Vettel so much that you cant be rationale? Looking at that image he was clear of him before getting on the brakes as you can see his DRS wide open, Bottas then proceeds to late brake which causes the accident.

Don't get your panties in a bunch. If Vettel was by him, he wouldn't have made contact with him when he cut across the track. I actually like Vettel. I don't dislike him at all. I'm just pointing out that it was a racing incident; not 100% either of their fault. Vettel should have left more room and Bottas should have backed off.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:05 pm 
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Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
You are judging the incident on what happen some 300 meters + before arriving to that corner (thats when Vettel was trying to make the pass). Practically (as shown on the image I posted above), Vettel had already completed the pass long before arriving into the corner where the incident occurred.

To complete the pass he would have had to make the corner cleanly with the lead. He certainly COULD have done that had he left more room or had Bottas backed out but the fact is that he had not yet completed the pass.

Does that rule applies to Vettel only and nobody else? Just saying cause I believe we've seen plenty of overtakes completed on the straits where the car on the outside then didnt leave a car-width space on the upcoming turn. I dont see why Vettel should be held partly responsible for Bottas' late-breaking.

Vettel wasn't clear of Bottas and yet he moved all the way to the inside line as though he was. It's really that simple. It was also totally unnecessary. He could have left room and still made the pass.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:14 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
You are judging the incident on what happen some 300 meters + before arriving to that corner (thats when Vettel was trying to make the pass). Practically (as shown on the image I posted above), Vettel had already completed the pass long before arriving into the corner where the incident occurred.

To complete the pass he would have had to make the corner cleanly with the lead. He certainly COULD have done that had he left more room or had Bottas backed out but the fact is that he had not yet completed the pass.

Does that rule applies to Vettel only and nobody else? Just saying cause I believe we've seen plenty of overtakes completed on the straits where the car on the outside then didnt leave a car-width space on the upcoming turn. I dont see why Vettel should be held partly responsible for Bottas' late-breaking.

Vettel wasn't clear of Bottas and yet he moved all the way to the inside line as though he was. It's really that simple. It was also totally unnecessary. He could have left room and still made the pass.


:thumbup:
(And up to this it was a very good pass, taking opportunity of the first real mistake Bottas made!)

Vettel took unnecessary risks by not giving some room. He could have easily lost all points here with a flatspotted tyre or worse. He was lucky to get away with it (not penalty-wise - but damage-wise). It was just not smart.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:39 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
What sort of rubbish take is this?

Do you dislike Vettel so much that you cant be rationale? Looking at that image he was clear of him before getting on the brakes as you can see his DRS wide open, Bottas then proceeds to late brake which causes the accident.


Why didn't Vettel leave space for the car he knew was on the inside.


Leave what space?

The space leaving rule is for a car side by side, not a car behind.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:45 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
Defending what exactly? He had already lost the track position before even entering the breaking zone for that corner. He was a full car length behind as soon as they passed under the bridge and probably only made few centimeter of grounds relative to Vettel, under breaking.

Image

If you disregard whatever happen prior to this frame, you could even be led into thinking that maybe Bottas tried a dive-bomb sort of move (make way for me, or we crash... but luckily Vettel still remained considerably ahead on the turn in).

Edit:
Image

Now the above is how much space Hamilton left for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, just before impact... and I simply dont see the 1 car-width space left in there. Which brings up the question... why should Vettel have left space for Bottas yesterday, at a time where Hamilton wasnt asked or questioned about doing the same for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, even though Bottas had a more considerable part of his car alongside Hamilton's in comparison with what he had with Vettel yesterday!

The difference, of course, is that Hamilton was in front of Bottas in 2016 and Valteri was trying to make a pass. In the incident with Vettel, it was Vettel trying to make a pass. That changes the dynamic of the incident. When making a pass, you have to make it cleanly.

I think it's a racing incident. Vettel would have been wise to leave more room but Valteri also could have braked a bit earlier.


What sort of rubbish take is this?

Do you dislike Vettel so much that you cant be rationale? Looking at that image he was clear of him before getting on the brakes as you can see his DRS wide open, Bottas then proceeds to late brake which causes the accident.

Don't get your panties in a bunch. If Vettel was by him, he wouldn't have made contact with him when he cut across the track. I actually like Vettel. I don't dislike him at all. I'm just pointing out that it was a racing incident; not 100% either of their fault. Vettel should have left more room and Bottas should have backed off.


Where exactly did Vettel cut across him, Vettel went past maintained same line and turned in, Bottas deciding to brake late is not something he would have envisaged.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:51 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
Defending what exactly? He had already lost the track position before even entering the breaking zone for that corner. He was a full car length behind as soon as they passed under the bridge and probably only made few centimeter of grounds relative to Vettel, under breaking.

Image

If you disregard whatever happen prior to this frame, you could even be led into thinking that maybe Bottas tried a dive-bomb sort of move (make way for me, or we crash... but luckily Vettel still remained considerably ahead on the turn in).

Edit:
Image

Now the above is how much space Hamilton left for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, just before impact... and I simply dont see the 1 car-width space left in there. Which brings up the question... why should Vettel have left space for Bottas yesterday, at a time where Hamilton wasnt asked or questioned about doing the same for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, even though Bottas had a more considerable part of his car alongside Hamilton's in comparison with what he had with Vettel yesterday!

The difference, of course, is that Hamilton was in front of Bottas in 2016 and Valteri was trying to make a pass. In the incident with Vettel, it was Vettel trying to make a pass. That changes the dynamic of the incident. When making a pass, you have to make it cleanly.

I think it's a racing incident. Vettel would have been wise to leave more room but Valteri also could have braked a bit earlier.


What sort of rubbish take is this?

Do you dislike Vettel so much that you cant be rationale? Looking at that image he was clear of him before getting on the brakes as you can see his DRS wide open, Bottas then proceeds to late brake which causes the accident.

Don't get your panties in a bunch. If Vettel was by him, he wouldn't have made contact with him when he cut across the track. I actually like Vettel. I don't dislike him at all. I'm just pointing out that it was a racing incident; not 100% either of their fault. Vettel should have left more room and Bottas should have backed off.


This wasn't a racing incident, this was a driver causing an accident.

Any racing driver or even a sim racer will tell you Bottas wasn't making that corner from the line he was on without using Vettels car as his brake.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:24 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
You are judging the incident on what happen some 300 meters + before arriving to that corner (thats when Vettel was trying to make the pass). Practically (as shown on the image I posted above), Vettel had already completed the pass long before arriving into the corner where the incident occurred.

To complete the pass he would have had to make the corner cleanly with the lead. He certainly COULD have done that had he left more room or had Bottas backed out but the fact is that he had not yet completed the pass.

Does that rule applies to Vettel only and nobody else? Just saying cause I believe we've seen plenty of overtakes completed on the straits where the car on the outside then didnt leave a car-width space on the upcoming turn. I dont see why Vettel should be held partly responsible for Bottas' late-breaking.

Vettel wasn't clear of Bottas and yet he moved all the way to the inside line as though he was. It's really that simple. It was also totally unnecessary. He could have left room and still made the pass.

By the same token in Bahrein 2016, Hamilton "wasn't clear of Bottas and yet he moved all the way to the inside line as though he was".

You`d probably come up repeating the same excuse that Hamilton wasnt overtaking whilst Vettel was, but that isnt valid because:
Vettel was completely ahead of Bottas before they even got to the corner (the same as Hamilton was ahead of Bottas) and I dont see why it should matter whether one completed his overtake on the strait before the corner (Vettel), or if it was given via grid position on the starting line (Hamilton). Bottom line and the only relevant thing here is that, by the time both Hamilton and Vettel entered the breaking area for the corner, they were considerably ahead of Bottas and had earned the right to pick the line of their choosing.

You could probably say that what Vettel did is not allowed for 2:10pm held race, but its perfectly ok if the race started at 1:00pm and it would make as much sense.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:42 am 
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babararacucudada wrote:
Recarding the lead driver having to leave room if there is an overlap (which is sort of how the rules are written).
A move by Ricciardo on Raikkonen in 2015 which wasn't penalised.

Raikkonen earning his 'cool' status.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvgMab_W1P8


Not sure if serious. That is a typical overtaking in videogames though :lol:

Vettel overtaking was clean but I guess he was hoping Bottas will go wide and simply give up. He could have got easily a puncture. I think DC said it was too risk to do such thing for few points. He got away with it. In France also he overtook Alonso spinning him somehow. That was also too close and he could have got a puncture or penalty.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:27 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Recarding the lead driver having to leave room if there is an overlap (which is sort of how the rules are written).
A move by Ricciardo on Raikkonen in 2015 which wasn't penalised.

Raikkonen earning his 'cool' status.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvgMab_W1P8

Not sure if serious. That is a typical overtaking in videogames though :lol:

I'm a solid Danny Ric supporter, but that was a kamikaze dive bomb if ever I've seen one.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:15 am 
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^^ Difference being online it would have ended up with Ricciardo on three wheels and Raikkonen upside down!

In comparison it was a masterly executed overtake ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:51 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Recarding the lead driver having to leave room if there is an overlap (which is sort of how the rules are written).
A move by Ricciardo on Raikkonen in 2015 which wasn't penalised.

Raikkonen earning his 'cool' status.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvgMab_W1P8


Not sure if serious. That is a typical overtaking in videogames though :lol:

Vettel overtaking was clean but I guess he was hoping Bottas will go wide and simply give up. He could have got easily a puncture. I think DC said it was too risk to do such thing for few points. He got away with it. In France also he overtook Alonso spinning him somehow. That was also too close and he could have got a puncture or penalty.


I think Kimi was right, but the rules IMO need to be re-written.
IMO it's unreasonable to expect a lead driver to be able to react to a last minute slight overlap.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:26 am 
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Syholl wrote:
I’m not a big fan of Vettel, but I don’t see him doing too much wrong here. Bottas made a desperate, late-braking lunge down the inside, with no chance of making the corner...
He had a good race up until this point, then it went downhill fast.

He didn't have no chance, he changed his line last moment even more as he realised Vettel wasn't giving him space. This will have been what made it look like he won't have made the corner. If Vettel had given him a bit more, he won't have had to go on the kerb. Therefore won't have ran as wide. Also, hitting vettel was clearly an extra reason for him running as wide as he did wide. He will have gone nowhere near as wide as that without that happening. The stewards concluded neither were predominantly to blame, but both could have done better. Vettel could have given more room, and Bottas could have braked a little earlier.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:05 am 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
Defending what exactly? He had already lost the track position before even entering the breaking zone for that corner. He was a full car length behind as soon as they passed under the bridge and probably only made few centimeter of grounds relative to Vettel, under breaking.

Image

If you disregard whatever happen prior to this frame, you could even be led into thinking that maybe Bottas tried a dive-bomb sort of move (make way for me, or we crash... but luckily Vettel still remained considerably ahead on the turn in).

Edit:
Image

Now the above is how much space Hamilton left for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, just before impact... and I simply dont see the 1 car-width space left in there. Which brings up the question... why should Vettel have left space for Bottas yesterday, at a time where Hamilton wasnt asked or questioned about doing the same for Bottas in Bahrein 2016, even though Bottas had a more considerable part of his car alongside Hamilton's in comparison with what he had with Vettel yesterday!

The difference, of course, is that Hamilton was in front of Bottas in 2016 and Valteri was trying to make a pass. In the incident with Vettel, it was Vettel trying to make a pass. That changes the dynamic of the incident. When making a pass, you have to make it cleanly.

I think it's a racing incident. Vettel would have been wise to leave more room but Valteri also could have braked a bit earlier.


What sort of rubbish take is this?

Do you dislike Vettel so much that you cant be rationale? Looking at that image he was clear of him before getting on the brakes as you can see his DRS wide open, Bottas then proceeds to late brake which causes the accident.

Don't get your panties in a bunch. If Vettel was by him, he wouldn't have made contact with him when he cut across the track. I actually like Vettel. I don't dislike him at all. I'm just pointing out that it was a racing incident; not 100% either of their fault. Vettel should have left more room and Bottas should have backed off.


This wasn't a racing incident, this was a driver causing an accident.

Any racing driver or even a sim racer will tell you Bottas wasn't making that corner from the line he was on without using Vettels car as his brake.


Any racing driver? This is evidently wrong as you can see per reasoning by the stewarts (including a former racing driver ;-)) claiming both were at fault: Bottas should have braked earlier and Vettel should have left more room. Furthermore, several ex-drivers-now-commentators/experts have said similar stuff. So your claim "any racing driver ..." is plainly and simply wrong.

I am fully d'accord that there can be different opinions on this incident. And most people accept that. But you are continuously arguing as if there can be only one "right" take on it and all other is "nonsense" etc.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:20 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Syholl wrote:
I’m not a big fan of Vettel, but I don’t see him doing too much wrong here. Bottas made a desperate, late-braking lunge down the inside, with no chance of making the corner...
He had a good race up until this point, then it went downhill fast.

He didn't have no chance, he changed his line last moment even more as he realised Vettel wasn't giving him space. This will have been what made it look like he won't have made the corner. If Vettel had given him a bit more, he won't have had to go on the kerb. Therefore won't have ran as wide. Also, hitting vettel was clearly an extra reason for him running as wide as he did wide. He will have gone nowhere near as wide as that without that happening. The stewards concluded neither were predominantly to blame, but both could have done better. Vettel could have given more room, and Bottas could have braked a little earlier.


I agree with this. Bottas locked up partially because he had to step further on to the kerb than planned when he realised Vettel was cutting his space, he could have braked earlier but it probably looked even worse than it was because he had that loss of grip on the kerb. Vettel should have been more aware of where Bottas was, he seemed completely oblivious that Bottas was there. If this was a Vettel tactic to cut Bottas' space and secure his overtake I actually wouldn't blame him for such a move providing he was fully ahead, but he just seemed completely oblivious to Bottas' existence.

Unfortunately too many want to 100% blame one or the other. Both should have done better, and neither would have made a 'mistake' if it wasn't for the other's mistake.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:47 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:

This wasn't a racing incident, this was a driver causing an accident.

Any racing driver or even a sim racer will tell you Bottas wasn't making that corner from the line he was on without using Vettels car as his brake.


Any racing driver? This is evidently wrong as you can see per reasoning by the stewarts (including a former racing driver ;-)) claiming both were at fault: Bottas should have braked earlier and Vettel should have left more room. Furthermore, several ex-drivers-now-commentators/experts have said similar stuff. So your claim "any racing driver ..." is plainly and simply wrong.

I am fully d'accord that there can be different opinions on this incident. And most people accept that. But you are continuously arguing as if there can be only one "right" take on it and all other is "nonsense" etc.


Now the ex racers are right, but were wrong in France when Vettel was given a 5s penalty and people thought it should have been more.

Why should Vettel leave more room really? the rule states side by side you leave a cars width, not for a car behind you.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:21 am 
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Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
You are judging the incident on what happen some 300 meters + before arriving to that corner (thats when Vettel was trying to make the pass). Practically (as shown on the image I posted above), Vettel had already completed the pass long before arriving into the corner where the incident occurred.

To complete the pass he would have had to make the corner cleanly with the lead. He certainly COULD have done that had he left more room or had Bottas backed out but the fact is that he had not yet completed the pass.

Does that rule applies to Vettel only and nobody else? Just saying cause I believe we've seen plenty of overtakes completed on the straits where the car on the outside then didnt leave a car-width space on the upcoming turn. I dont see why Vettel should be held partly responsible for Bottas' late-breaking.

Vettel wasn't clear of Bottas and yet he moved all the way to the inside line as though he was. It's really that simple. It was also totally unnecessary. He could have left room and still made the pass.

By the same token in Bahrein 2016, Hamilton "wasn't clear of Bottas and yet he moved all the way to the inside line as though he was".

You`d probably come up repeating the same excuse that Hamilton wasnt overtaking whilst Vettel was, but that isnt valid because:
Vettel was completely ahead of Bottas before they even got to the corner (the same as Hamilton was ahead of Bottas) and I dont see why it should matter whether one completed his overtake on the strait before the corner (Vettel), or if it was given via grid position on the starting line (Hamilton). Bottom line and the only relevant thing here is that, by the time both Hamilton and Vettel entered the breaking area for the corner, they were considerably ahead of Bottas and had earned the right to pick the line of their choosing.

You could probably say that what Vettel did is not allowed for 2:10pm held race, but its perfectly ok if the race started at 1:00pm and it would make as much sense.

No sorry that's incorrect. The fact that Hamilton was ahead in the 2016 example you're using isn't an excuse. It's an important fact to consider. A change of position is an important element in the Vettel/Bottas incident. It matters. When overtaking another car for position, you have to cleanly establish that position. Vettel got it a bit wrong there by being too aggressive. Bottas got it a bit wrong for the same reason.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:51 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
To complete the pass he would have had to make the corner cleanly with the lead. He certainly COULD have done that had he left more room or had Bottas backed out but the fact is that he had not yet completed the pass.

Does that rule applies to Vettel only and nobody else? Just saying cause I believe we've seen plenty of overtakes completed on the straits where the car on the outside then didnt leave a car-width space on the upcoming turn. I dont see why Vettel should be held partly responsible for Bottas' late-breaking.

Vettel wasn't clear of Bottas and yet he moved all the way to the inside line as though he was. It's really that simple. It was also totally unnecessary. He could have left room and still made the pass.

By the same token in Bahrein 2016, Hamilton "wasn't clear of Bottas and yet he moved all the way to the inside line as though he was".

You`d probably come up repeating the same excuse that Hamilton wasnt overtaking whilst Vettel was, but that isnt valid because:
Vettel was completely ahead of Bottas before they even got to the corner (the same as Hamilton was ahead of Bottas) and I dont see why it should matter whether one completed his overtake on the strait before the corner (Vettel), or if it was given via grid position on the starting line (Hamilton). Bottom line and the only relevant thing here is that, by the time both Hamilton and Vettel entered the breaking area for the corner, they were considerably ahead of Bottas and had earned the right to pick the line of their choosing.
You could probably say that what Vettel did is not allowed for 2:10pm held race, but its perfectly ok if the race started at 1:00pm and it would make as much sense.

No sorry that's incorrect. The fact that Hamilton was ahead in the 2016 example you're using isn't an excuse. It's an important fact to consider. A change of position is an important element in the Vettel/Bottas incident. It matters. When overtaking another car for position, you have to cleanly establish that position. Vettel got it a bit wrong there by being too aggressive. Bottas got it a bit wrong for the same reason.

Vettel too was ahead of Bottas on the run in to the corner, as much as Hamilton was, if not more. And that is an equally important factor that you keep ignoring.
There is no such rule that when you complete the overtake on another car on the strait, you`d always have to leave room on the following corner regardless.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:28 pm 
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Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Vettel wasn't clear of Bottas and yet he moved all the way to the inside line as though he was. It's really that simple. It was also totally unnecessary. He could have left room and still made the pass.

By the same token in Bahrein 2016, Hamilton "wasn't clear of Bottas and yet he moved all the way to the inside line as though he was".

You`d probably come up repeating the same excuse that Hamilton wasnt overtaking whilst Vettel was, but that isnt valid because:
Vettel was completely ahead of Bottas before they even got to the corner (the same as Hamilton was ahead of Bottas) and I dont see why it should matter whether one completed his overtake on the strait before the corner (Vettel), or if it was given via grid position on the starting line (Hamilton). Bottom line and the only relevant thing here is that, by the time both Hamilton and Vettel entered the breaking area for the corner, they were considerably ahead of Bottas and had earned the right to pick the line of their choosing.
You could probably say that what Vettel did is not allowed for 2:10pm held race, but its perfectly ok if the race started at 1:00pm and it would make as much sense.

No sorry that's incorrect. The fact that Hamilton was ahead in the 2016 example you're using isn't an excuse. It's an important fact to consider. A change of position is an important element in the Vettel/Bottas incident. It matters. When overtaking another car for position, you have to cleanly establish that position. Vettel got it a bit wrong there by being too aggressive. Bottas got it a bit wrong for the same reason.

Vettel too was ahead of Bottas on the run in to the corner, as much as Hamilton was, if not more. And that is an equally important factor that you keep ignoring.
There is no such rule that when you complete the overtake on another car on the strait, you`d always have to leave room on the following corner regardless.

We can keep going around in circles on this all day so I'll just agree to disagree. I'll just leave it by saying that the example you chose isn't a good one as it's a different type of incident. In 2016, Bottas threw his car up the inside of Hamilton to try to take a position from a place where he was clearly behind Lewis and was never going to be able to make a pass. The Hungary incident between Bottas and Vettel was different in that it was Vettel attempting to pass Bottas so Valteri wasn't just having a lunge; he was defending his position. Vettel should have left room.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:48 pm 
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First time I've heard that you have to leave room for a car that you have already passed.
Can anyone point to that rule?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:57 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
First time I've heard that you have to leave room for a car that you have already passed.
Can anyone point to that rule?


You'll have to find the Ham Fanboy manual for that. Or the Anyone-But-Ferrari manual.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:58 pm 
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Bottas onboard has become the best kept secret of F1. They dd not include it in the"Hungarian GP onboards" video.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:04 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:

This wasn't a racing incident, this was a driver causing an accident.

Any racing driver or even a sim racer will tell you Bottas wasn't making that corner from the line he was on without using Vettels car as his brake.


Any racing driver? This is evidently wrong as you can see per reasoning by the stewarts (including a former racing driver ;-)) claiming both were at fault: Bottas should have braked earlier and Vettel should have left more room. Furthermore, several ex-drivers-now-commentators/experts have said similar stuff. So your claim "any racing driver ..." is plainly and simply wrong.

I am fully d'accord that there can be different opinions on this incident. And most people accept that. But you are continuously arguing as if there can be only one "right" take on it and all other is "nonsense" etc.


Now the ex racers are right, but were wrong in France when Vettel was given a 5s penalty and people thought it should have been more.



No, no. You claimed any racing driver - and that was evidently wrong. You can try to distract from that as much as you want. ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:01 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:

This wasn't a racing incident, this was a driver causing an accident.

Any racing driver or even a sim racer will tell you Bottas wasn't making that corner from the line he was on without using Vettels car as his brake.


Any racing driver? This is evidently wrong as you can see per reasoning by the stewarts (including a former racing driver ;-)) claiming both were at fault: Bottas should have braked earlier and Vettel should have left more room. Furthermore, several ex-drivers-now-commentators/experts have said similar stuff. So your claim "any racing driver ..." is plainly and simply wrong.

I am fully d'accord that there can be different opinions on this incident. And most people accept that. But you are continuously arguing as if there can be only one "right" take on it and all other is "nonsense" etc.


Now the ex racers are right, but were wrong in France when Vettel was given a 5s penalty and people thought it should have been more.



No, no. You claimed any racing driver - and that was evidently wrong. You can try to distract from that as much as you want. ;)


Well being pedantic the guys you mentioned are ex racers.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:04 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Bottas onboard has become the best kept secret of F1. They dd not include it in the"Hungarian GP onboards" video.


Unfortunately the director didn't react quick enough.

He had the rear facing camera for Bottas and the onboard for Vettel, which should have been switched immediately Vettel went past Bottas.

So they don't have the onboard from Bottas.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:01 am 
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ohwell wrote:
AnRs wrote:
First time I've heard that you have to leave room for a car that you have already passed.
Can anyone point to that rule?


You'll have to find the Ham Fanboy manual for that. Or the Anyone-But-Ferrari manual.

Several forumers could probably get you a copy :)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:28 am 
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https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/45000927

Nothing else to add.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:01 am 
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Salvadoray wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/45000927

Nothing else to add.

Good strategy from Mercedes?? Just joking, good article


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:35 am 
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Salvadoray wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/45000927

Nothing else to add.


Implying that the a penalty could have been serious if Vettel had retired or got a puncture when Whiting said that they base things on the incident and not the outcome. Think OF Verstappen / Massa in Italy last year. Massa was really on the limit, but fair. Verstappen got a puncture. It wasn't because he got a puncture that they didn't think it was worth investigating further. From the description of this Vettel - Bottas incident, They do blame both equally and would not punish either any further even if one retired or had a puncture. Even if whiting isn't in charge of the outcome, he will know his stuff.


This BBC article is clearly just an opinion and not based on the description of the collision by the stewards.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:48 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Bottas onboard has become the best kept secret of F1. They dd not include it in the"Hungarian GP onboards" video.


Unfortunately the director didn't react quick enough.

He had the rear facing camera for Bottas and the onboard for Vettel, which should have been switched immediately Vettel went past Bottas.

So they don't have the onboard from Bottas.
That's what we saw, but I doubt the forward facing camera footage isn't there somewhere. As the Lt said, the best kept secret.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:54 am 
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Quote from vettel regarding contact

“Obviously I felt all of a sudden that I got hit from behind,” said Vettel. “I think for him there wasn’t really anywhere to go. I don’t blame him.”

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2018/7/i-don_t-blame-bottas-for-collision--vettel.html

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Bottas onboard has become the best kept secret of F1. They dd not include it in the"Hungarian GP onboards" video.


Unfortunately the director didn't react quick enough.

He had the rear facing camera for Bottas and the onboard for Vettel, which should have been switched immediately Vettel went past Bottas.

So they don't have the onboard from Bottas.
That's what we saw, but I doubt the forward facing camera footage isn't there somewhere. As the Lt said, the best kept secret.

Yea even when i seem against a decision the stewards have made, I often think that they wil have more evidence and footage that they can keep hidden from us. S that is why i think it isn't worth being against a decision for ages. Their description was good enough that both culd have done a better job.


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