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How will Ricciardo's move to Renault play out long-term?
Poll runs till Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:39 am
Successfully; Ricciardo will have more success at Renault than he would have had at Red Bull 42%  42%  [ 27 ]
Unsuccessfully; he would have had more success if he had stayed at Red Bull 58%  58%  [ 38 ]
Total votes : 65
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:11 am 
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Zoue wrote:
I don't get this idea that Red Bull would "prefer" Max to win. Why? What difference does it make to them who wins?


Look at the grandstands at each GP. Thousands & thousands of orange clad young current or potential consumers of that sh1tty drink and purchasers of RB paraphernalia.

It's all about marketing Zoue. Marketing.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:17 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't get this idea that Red Bull would "prefer" Max to win. Why? What difference does it make to them who wins?


Look at the grandstands at each GP. Thousands & thousands of orange clad young current or potential consumers of that sh1tty drink and purchasers of RB paraphernalia.

It's all about marketing Zoue. Marketing.

Fair point for Europe I guess. But isn't the Aussie market big, too? I don't think they'd be unhappy if Ric wins, really. They didn't seem too downcast when he was beating Seb


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:18 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't get this idea that Red Bull would "prefer" Max to win. Why? What difference does it make to them who wins?


Look at the grandstands at each GP. Thousands & thousands of orange clad young current or potential consumers of that sh1tty drink and purchasers of RB paraphernalia.

It's all about marketing Zoue. Marketing.

Fair point for Europe I guess. But isn't the Aussie market big, too? I don't think they'd be unhappy if Ric wins, really. They didn't seem too downcast when he was beating Seb


I doubt Red Bull are disappointed when Ricciardo wins, but the European market is enormous compare to the Australian one.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:34 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't get this idea that Red Bull would "prefer" Max to win. Why? What difference does it make to them who wins?


Look at the grandstands at each GP. Thousands & thousands of orange clad young current or potential consumers of that sh1tty drink and purchasers of RB paraphernalia.

It's all about marketing Zoue. Marketing.

Fair point for Europe I guess. But isn't the Aussie market big, too? I don't think they'd be unhappy if Ric wins, really. They didn't seem too downcast when he was beating Seb


Yeah we're up there but our population is only 25m. The greater metro area of Paris alone is over 10m. Throw in the Americas & Asia who i'd guess don't really care who drives the car, plus the current media focus on Verstappen and, from a purely marketing POV, it's understandable to see how it benefits and suits the RB brand more to have the young, brash, renegade Verstappen winning than older Ricciardo.

It was the same situation for Vettel & Webber.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:45 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
It was the same situation for Vettel & Webber.


Different slightly there in that Ricciardo is arguably as good or better than Verstappen, whereas the same couldn't be same about Webber and Vettel.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:00 am 
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Toby. wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
It was the same situation for Vettel & Webber.


Different slightly there in that Ricciardo is arguably as good or better than Verstappen, whereas the same couldn't be same about Webber and Vettel.


Yep agree with that but even if they were similar in ability, it was clear to see how the young German fitted nicely into RB's profile while Webber was the old, sensible, cranky dude who looked like he'd be happier quietly sipping a warm cup of chamomile tea in his lounge room by the fire with two King Charles Cockerspanials lying at his feet and watching Antiques Roadshow than slamming down a can of RB then running off the edge of a mile high cliff dressed as a bat.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:21 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
It was the same situation for Vettel & Webber.


Different slightly there in that Ricciardo is arguably as good or better than Verstappen, whereas the same couldn't be same about Webber and Vettel.


Yep agree with that but even if they were similar in ability, it was clear to see how the young German fitted nicely into RB's profile while Webber was the old, sensible, cranky dude who looked like he'd be happier quietly sipping a warm cup of chamomile tea in his lounge room by the fire with two King Charles Cockerspanials lying at his feet and watching Antiques Roadshow than slamming down a can of RB then running off the edge of a mile high cliff dressed as a bat.


Ironically I reckon it'd be the outdoorsy, mountain-bike, trail-loving Webber who's more likely to do those sorts of things - though maybe not needing the Red Bull to get him there.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:33 am 
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Toby. wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
It was the same situation for Vettel & Webber.


Different slightly there in that Ricciardo is arguably as good or better than Verstappen, whereas the same couldn't be same about Webber and Vettel.


Yep agree with that but even if they were similar in ability, it was clear to see how the young German fitted nicely into RB's profile while Webber was the old, sensible, cranky dude who looked like he'd be happier quietly sipping a warm cup of chamomile tea in his lounge room by the fire with two King Charles Cockerspanials lying at his feet and watching Antiques Roadshow than slamming down a can of RB then running off the edge of a mile high cliff dressed as a bat.


Ironically I reckon it'd be the outdoorsy, mountain-bike, trail-loving Webber who's more likely to do those sorts of things - though maybe not needing the Red Bull to get him there.


Yeah maybe but if given the choice between the two options I wonder how the young RB consuming market would view him?

Maybe they could see him as the type to jump a motor bike over the grand canyon ala Evil Knievel.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:49 am 
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I think this all started after the baku post race de brief.
Then there was no doubt he would be playing second to the golden child.
I think he didn't want to put up with that anymore - add in Honda??'s - Renault expansions.
No brainer in my book.
Now Max will have to be the leader and I don't think he is up to it.
Will he be fast - absolutely Will he be Wise enough - doubtful.
But daddy will be there to coach him and that's when Max messes up.
I'm hoping Renault really come through and get in the top mix.
If they can get close Dan has the racecraft to make a go of it.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:07 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
It was the same situation for Vettel & Webber.


Different slightly there in that Ricciardo is arguably as good or better than Verstappen, whereas the same couldn't be same about Webber and Vettel.


Yep agree with that but even if they were similar in ability, it was clear to see how the young German fitted nicely into RB's profile while Webber was the old, sensible, cranky dude who looked like he'd be happier quietly sipping a warm cup of chamomile tea in his lounge room by the fire with two King Charles Cockerspanials lying at his feet and watching Antiques Roadshow than slamming down a can of RB then running off the edge of a mile high cliff dressed as a bat.


Ironically I reckon it'd be the outdoorsy, mountain-bike, trail-loving Webber who's more likely to do those sorts of things - though maybe not needing the Red Bull to get him there.


Yeah maybe but if given the choice between the two options I wonder how the young RB consuming market would view him?

Maybe they could see him as the type to jump a motor bike over the grand canyon ala Evil Knievel.


Ricciardo seems way more popular than Verstappen. I honestly don't see any reason why Red Bull would care which one of them won. It's not the same situation as Webber/Vettel. Webber was from outside the Red Bull family and was never as good as Vettel. Even then I think everyone at Red Bull bar Marko would have been just as happy to see him winning as Vettel. Surely two WDC drivers are more marketable than one?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:29 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

Ricciardo seems way more popular than Verstappen.


How do you reason that mikey? Also, from a marketing POV, do you not think Verstappen fits the RB profile better than Ricciardo?

Also keep in mind the records Verstappen has broken or has a chance to break. They already have the youngest ever F1 driver, the youngest ever F1 winner, the youngest driver to set a fastest lap, youngest driver to score a podium, youngest driver to score points.

Better to produce the "Youngest Ever World Champ" than "The World Champ".

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:54 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Ricciardo seems way more popular than Verstappen. I honestly don't see any reason why Red Bull would care which one of them won. It's not the same situation as Webber/Vettel. Webber was from outside the Red Bull family and was never as good as Vettel. Even then I think everyone at Red Bull bar Marko would have been just as happy to see him winning as Vettel. Surely two WDC drivers are more marketable than one?


I wouldn't say he's more popular just more likeable.

In regards to RBR I always felt that Marko had influence on who became Red Bulls preferred number 1. Webber didn't have a relationship with Marko so it wasn't going to be him and when Ricciardo smashed Vettel I think that urked Marko a little as Vettel was his boy.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:15 am 
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Big call by Abiteboul. Maybe something grand is in the pipeline for 2019.

https://www.sport24.co.za/Motorsport/abiteboul-renault-engine-good-enough-for-title-push-20180813

Quote:

"Here we are on schedule with our catching up. I am convinced that we will catch up with Mercedes and Ferrari in 2019, maybe even overtake".

If true, I hope for Ricciardo's sake they can develop a chassis good to take advantage of the much improved PU.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:40 am 
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Toby. wrote:
pokerman wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Max angle has been overplayed. He has successfully raced against Max and came out on top for majority of his career making much fewer mistakes. I dont think either one is definitely better than the other to be honest.

Also I dont think this is final destination for Ricciardo at least its not set in stone yet. If there was ever the time to move, it is now. I do not believe in RedBull being able to genuinely challenge for WDC anytime soon or at all from this point on for next decade. Race wins here and there, maybe.

Renault too I dont expect to be title contenders in next 2 years. So Ricciardo is in a position to see how things shape up in these 2 years and then take a call for 2021. Its not as high risk exit as some people are making it out to be. What he need to do is compete well against Hulkenberg. Hulkenberg is one of the underrated drivers among fans. There is a reason why Renault went after him early in rebuilding process.

From Ricciardo's point of view this made perfect sense. There is very strong possibility of 2 race seats opening up in current top 2 teams for 2021. If he believes Renault is not up to the mark to challenge for 2021, he can jump after 2020 provided he is still rated highly by the other teams and has competed well against Hulkenberg.

If Hulkenberg soundly beats him, its game over.

That makes little sense, he could just as easily waited those 2 years out at Red Bull and been in a better car at that if Verstappen himself was not an issue because he had the beating of Verstappen as you put it.


I genuinely believe based on how Honda has gone since 2015, Ricciardo believes Renault is the better option for the next two years. I expect he thinks podiums and even possibly wins are more likely with Renault and a Renault engine than with Red Bull and a Honda engine by 2021.

That being the case and it comes true then fair play to him.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:45 am 
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Toby. wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
It was the same situation for Vettel & Webber.


Different slightly there in that Ricciardo is arguably as good or better than Verstappen, whereas the same couldn't be same about Webber and Vettel.

I think we might have a different opinion on whom might be the better driver, in terms of speed then it's Verstappen, beyond that then I think it's reliant on Verstappen continuing to crash into things?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:49 am 
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750k2 wrote:
I think this all started after the baku post race de brief.
Then there was no doubt he would be playing second to the golden child.
I think he didn't want to put up with that anymore - add in Honda??'s - Renault expansions.
No brainer in my book.
Now Max will have to be the leader and I don't think he is up to it.
Will he be fast - absolutely Will he be Wise enough - doubtful.
But daddy will be there to coach him and that's when Max messes up.
I'm hoping Renault really come through and get in the top mix.
If they can get close Dan has the racecraft to make a go of it.

I think if you reenact the Baku crash with Ricciardo this time in the Renault then Verstappen gets penalised for the next race, it's my belief that it took Ricciardo to put his hand up and say I was partly to blame to get Verstappen off the hook as instructed by Red Bull.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
750k2 wrote:
I think this all started after the baku post race de brief.
Then there was no doubt he would be playing second to the golden child.
I think he didn't want to put up with that anymore - add in Honda??'s - Renault expansions.
No brainer in my book.
Now Max will have to be the leader and I don't think he is up to it.
Will he be fast - absolutely Will he be Wise enough - doubtful.
But daddy will be there to coach him and that's when Max messes up.
I'm hoping Renault really come through and get in the top mix.
If they can get close Dan has the racecraft to make a go of it.

I think if you reenact the Baku crash with Ricciardo this time in the Renault then Verstappen gets penalised for the next race, it's my belief that it took Ricciardo to put his hand up and say I was partly to blame to get Verstappen off the hook as instructed by Red Bull.

Agree. As they were team mates I still believe Ricciardo was instructed to take some of the blame by RB hierarchy so they stewards would allow RB to handle the situation "In house" with no penalties.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:05 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
750k2 wrote:
I think this all started after the baku post race de brief.
Then there was no doubt he would be playing second to the golden child.
I think he didn't want to put up with that anymore - add in Honda??'s - Renault expansions.
No brainer in my book.
Now Max will have to be the leader and I don't think he is up to it.
Will he be fast - absolutely Will he be Wise enough - doubtful.
But daddy will be there to coach him and that's when Max messes up.
I'm hoping Renault really come through and get in the top mix.
If they can get close Dan has the racecraft to make a go of it.

I think if you reenact the Baku crash with Ricciardo this time in the Renault then Verstappen gets penalised for the next race, it's my belief that it took Ricciardo to put his hand up and say I was partly to blame to get Verstappen off the hook as instructed by Red Bull.

Agree. As they were team mates I still believe Ricciardo was instructed to take some of the blame by RB hierarchy so they stewards would allow RB to handle the situation "In house" with no penalties.

I'm inclined to agree and this may have angered Ricciardo. He had his race messed up by his team mate and to add insult to injury had to hold his hand up and accept blame. I'd be surprised if that didn't rankle at least a bit


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
750k2 wrote:
I think this all started after the baku post race de brief.
Then there was no doubt he would be playing second to the golden child.
I think he didn't want to put up with that anymore - add in Honda??'s - Renault expansions.
No brainer in my book.
Now Max will have to be the leader and I don't think he is up to it.
Will he be fast - absolutely Will he be Wise enough - doubtful.
But daddy will be there to coach him and that's when Max messes up.
I'm hoping Renault really come through and get in the top mix.
If they can get close Dan has the racecraft to make a go of it.

I think if you reenact the Baku crash with Ricciardo this time in the Renault then Verstappen gets penalised for the next race, it's my belief that it took Ricciardo to put his hand up and say I was partly to blame to get Verstappen off the hook as instructed by Red Bull.

Agree. As they were team mates I still believe Ricciardo was instructed to take some of the blame by RB hierarchy so they stewards would allow RB to handle the situation "In house" with no penalties.

I'm inclined to agree and this may have angered Ricciardo. He had his race messed up by his team mate and to add insult to injury had to hold his hand up and accept blame. I'd be surprised if that didn't rankle at least a bit


I think this race was the tipping point for him, and totally agree with the above - I reckon he felt hard done by that he was forced to accept some of the blame.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:42 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
750k2 wrote:
I think this all started after the baku post race de brief.
Then there was no doubt he would be playing second to the golden child.
I think he didn't want to put up with that anymore - add in Honda??'s - Renault expansions.
No brainer in my book.
Now Max will have to be the leader and I don't think he is up to it.
Will he be fast - absolutely Will he be Wise enough - doubtful.
But daddy will be there to coach him and that's when Max messes up.
I'm hoping Renault really come through and get in the top mix.
If they can get close Dan has the racecraft to make a go of it.

I think if you reenact the Baku crash with Ricciardo this time in the Renault then Verstappen gets penalised for the next race, it's my belief that it took Ricciardo to put his hand up and say I was partly to blame to get Verstappen off the hook as instructed by Red Bull.

Agree. As they were team mates I still believe Ricciardo was instructed to take some of the blame by RB hierarchy so they stewards would allow RB to handle the situation "In house" with no penalties.

I'm inclined to agree and this may have angered Ricciardo. He had his race messed up by his team mate and to add insult to injury had to hold his hand up and accept blame. I'd be surprised if that didn't rankle at least a bit


He didn't have to do anything.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:54 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
750k2 wrote:
I think this all started after the baku post race de brief.
Then there was no doubt he would be playing second to the golden child.
I think he didn't want to put up with that anymore - add in Honda??'s - Renault expansions.
No brainer in my book.
Now Max will have to be the leader and I don't think he is up to it.
Will he be fast - absolutely Will he be Wise enough - doubtful.
But daddy will be there to coach him and that's when Max messes up.
I'm hoping Renault really come through and get in the top mix.
If they can get close Dan has the racecraft to make a go of it.

I think if you reenact the Baku crash with Ricciardo this time in the Renault then Verstappen gets penalised for the next race, it's my belief that it took Ricciardo to put his hand up and say I was partly to blame to get Verstappen off the hook as instructed by Red Bull.

Agree. As they were team mates I still believe Ricciardo was instructed to take some of the blame by RB hierarchy so they stewards would allow RB to handle the situation "In house" with no penalties.

I'm inclined to agree and this may have angered Ricciardo. He had his race messed up by his team mate and to add insult to injury had to hold his hand up and accept blame. I'd be surprised if that didn't rankle at least a bit


He didn't have to do anything.

yes< I should have said may have


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:32 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
yes< I should have said may have


What I really mean is he could have just said no to the request.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yes< I should have said may have


What I really mean is he could have just said no to the request.

yeah but we don't really know what was discussed or how it was put to him. It's all speculation really and for all we know Ricciardo volunteered to take the blame. But odds are that he did it as part of PR damage limitation and my comments were based on that premise


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:53 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yes< I should have said may have


What I really mean is he could have just said no to the request.

...and thrown Verstappen under the bus?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:55 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yes< I should have said may have


What I really mean is he could have just said no to the request.

...and thrown Verstappen under the bus?


Why couldn't he? He doesn't owe Verstappen anything and he blamed him for crashes before.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yes< I should have said may have


What I really mean is he could have just said no to the request.

...and thrown Verstappen under the bus?

Why not? It was Verstappen's fault.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:48 pm 
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750k2 wrote:

Now Max will have to be the leader and I don't think he is up to it.
Will he be fast - absolutely Will he be Wise enough - doubtful.
But daddy will be there to coach him and that's when Max messes up.
I'm hoping Renault really come through and get in the top mix.
If they can get close Dan has the racecraft to make a go of it.


I 100% agree on your comments "750k2"... :thumbup:

Don't see Max doing as well with that Honda engine. Think Renault may up their game and maybe because with Riccardo in the team, could see new sponsors too!... My money is on Daniel here and maybe beat Red Bull for the WC points battle.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:29 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yes< I should have said may have


What I really mean is he could have just said no to the request.

...and thrown Verstappen under the bus?

If he felt it was Verstappen's fault, why not? He lost the chance for a podium there. Why should he take blame for something he felt he didn't do (assuming that's the case, of course)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:33 pm 
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He didn't because he truly is a team player but then the team let him down Again.
I think he just figured he was going to be in for more heart ache having to be a wing man.
He was and still is under contract and being the class act he is will not lower himself to
their level then or in the remaining races - I think.
I wish nothing but the best for him even though I bleed red.
I really really wanted Ferrari to grab him.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
It was the same situation for Vettel & Webber.


Different slightly there in that Ricciardo is arguably as good or better than Verstappen, whereas the same couldn't be same about Webber and Vettel.

I think we might have a different opinion on whom might be the better driver, in terms of speed then it's Verstappen, beyond that then I think it's reliant on Verstappen continuing to crash into things?


All down to opinion, of course. Personally I think these two are so incredibly close it's hard to pick one over the other. They're easily the closest team-mates on the grid, which is incredible considering how highly both are rated. At this point in time Verstappen has Ricciardo in qualifying by about a tenth - and that's what's making the difference these days. Whichever one starts ahead usually finishes ahead. When it comes to race pace I think Ricciardo is a bit handier and can do more with the car than Verstappen, but a lot of the time because he started behind he's behind on the track. Daniel just needs to sort out Saturdays.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:13 pm 
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Max has the global potential to be one of sports biggest names, and be associated with Red Bull in much the same way Tiger Woods is associated with Nike.

A long way to go before he achieves that, but his potential marketting ability is more than any current F1 driver. Personally, I don't think Max will turn out as good as his potential suggests, and under this formula it might be hard for him to become dominant.

Ricciardo, whilst (I think is) a more complete driver than Max, and a more likeable character, does not have anywhere near that potential.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:34 pm 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
Max has the global potential to be one of sports biggest names, and be associated with Red Bull in much the same way Tiger Woods is associated with Nike.

A long way to go before he achieves that, but his potential marketting ability is more than any current F1 driver. Personally, I don't think Max will turn out as good as his potential suggests, and under this formula it might be hard for him to become dominant.

Ricciardo, whilst (I think is) a more complete driver than Max, and a more likeable character, does not have anywhere near that potential.


You hit the nail on the head here.

Although the Tiger woods analogy a little over the top.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:25 am 
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The most successful drivers seem to make a team their own and use it. Drivers with the butterfly effect seem to have purple patches then slide.

In Ricciardo's case, it is not clear cut.

Using the above as a dictum, there is no point him stayin there if it is going to become 'Team Max', as he will then be part of a team that is not centered around him. Bad choice

Move to another team, bad choice. Especially a French team with a (comparatively) established driver whop has settled in well at the team.

Dammed if he does move dammed if he stays.

My feelings are he should have taken a 1 year contract at Red Bull to see what happens.
Max may not turn out to be what they expect, or he may get itchy feet and like Red (and lots of green) or brown in the case of euro's)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:00 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yes< I should have said may have


What I really mean is he could have just said no to the request.

...and thrown Verstappen under the bus?

If he felt it was Verstappen's fault, why not? He lost the chance for a podium there. Why should he take blame for something he felt he didn't do (assuming that's the case, of course)


Remember though the teams position in the incident was to start saying both drivers were equally responsible for crash almost before the drivers had returned to the pit area.

Ricciardo, being just one member of a team, would have been expected to tow the team line. If RB could go to the stewards saying words to the effect of "It was only our cars involved, the team has already been penalised, both drivers have accepted some degree of responsibility, let us handle their punishments", then I believe this would have been enough to save Verstappen from getting a grid penalty, thus allow the team to maximise it's chance at the next GP, which incidentally was Spain, a track where, and correct me if i'm wrong, RB were expected to be strong at.

All just speculation though of course.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:17 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yes< I should have said may have


What I really mean is he could have just said no to the request.

...and thrown Verstappen under the bus?

Why not? It was Verstappen's fault.

I know it was, I guess you just can't win, when Hamilton revealed that Rosberg chose to have an accident with him in Spa 2014 Hamilton got vilified by some for acting against his team and revealing what had been said behind closed doors.

We assume that Ricciardo was asked to take some blame by the team and doing otherwise would have been acting against his team so he played the good guy, ultimately did that do him any good I guess not because he left the team anyway.

It's strange that Hamilton goes ballistic and thinks about leaving the team but stays anyway, Ricciardo keeps it all in check, everything's fine then leaves the team.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:23 am 
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Toby. wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
It was the same situation for Vettel & Webber.


Different slightly there in that Ricciardo is arguably as good or better than Verstappen, whereas the same couldn't be same about Webber and Vettel.

I think we might have a different opinion on whom might be the better driver, in terms of speed then it's Verstappen, beyond that then I think it's reliant on Verstappen continuing to crash into things?


All down to opinion, of course. Personally I think these two are so incredibly close it's hard to pick one over the other. They're easily the closest team-mates on the grid, which is incredible considering how highly both are rated. At this point in time Verstappen has Ricciardo in qualifying by about a tenth - and that's what's making the difference these days. Whichever one starts ahead usually finishes ahead. When it comes to race pace I think Ricciardo is a bit handier and can do more with the car than Verstappen, but a lot of the time because he started behind he's behind on the track. Daniel just needs to sort out Saturdays.

Well there's the thing when it comes to qualifying they are not the closest pairing on the grid the gap being 0.17s and like I say the impression of Ricciardo doing better on the Sunday relates more to Verstappen crashing, when Verstappen has a clean weekend he beats Ricciardo 9 times out of 10.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yes< I should have said may have


What I really mean is he could have just said no to the request.

...and thrown Verstappen under the bus?

Why not? It was Verstappen's fault.

I know it was, I guess you just can't win, when Hamilton revealed that Rosberg chose to have an accident with him in Spa 2014 Hamilton got vilified by some for acting against his team and revealing what had been said behind closed doors.

We assume that Ricciardo was asked to take some blame by the team and doing otherwise would have been acting against his team so he played the good guy, ultimately did that do him any good I guess not because he left the team anyway.

It's strange that Hamilton goes ballistic and thinks about leaving the team but stays anyway, Ricciardo keeps it all in check, everything's fine then leaves the team.

The reason he got vilified was because Rosberg never said he chose to have an accident with Hamilton on purpose. And of course because Hamilton acted against his team and revealed what was said behind closed doors. Afterwards it turned out that the nuance between what Hamilton let everybody believe and the reality of what Rosberg said was quite different and Hamilton had made Rosberg out to be some kind of suicidal mega-villain that he never actually was.

Hamilton has form for twisting events to the public, Twittergate being the most famous one. But the stark difference between Ricciardo's actions and Hamilton's in their respective incidents shows Ricciardo isn't one for betraying team confidences in the way that Hamilton is. And making comparisons about leaving their teams isn't really fair. In Hamilton case it likely would have been the most monumentally stupid decision of his career and would have cost him at least two titles and most likely put him out of the running for this one. In 2014 everyone knew that unless you had a Merc you weren't even close to being able to challenge and the rules made it next to impossible for anyone to catch up. By Spa it was already obvious that the only competition for titles would be between the Mercedes team mates for the foreseeable future. Ricciardo's decision is still a risk, but there isn't nearly as much at stake as with Hamilton's situation.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:22 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
What I really mean is he could have just said no to the request.

...and thrown Verstappen under the bus?

Why not? It was Verstappen's fault.

I know it was, I guess you just can't win, when Hamilton revealed that Rosberg chose to have an accident with him in Spa 2014 Hamilton got vilified by some for acting against his team and revealing what had been said behind closed doors.

We assume that Ricciardo was asked to take some blame by the team and doing otherwise would have been acting against his team so he played the good guy, ultimately did that do him any good I guess not because he left the team anyway.

It's strange that Hamilton goes ballistic and thinks about leaving the team but stays anyway, Ricciardo keeps it all in check, everything's fine then leaves the team.

The reason he got vilified was because Rosberg never said he chose to have an accident with Hamilton on purpose. And of course because Hamilton acted against his team and revealed what was said behind closed doors. Afterwards it turned out that the nuance between what Hamilton let everybody believe and the reality of what Rosberg said was quite different and Hamilton had made Rosberg out to be some kind of suicidal mega-villain that he never actually was.

Hamilton has form for twisting events to the public, Twittergate being the most famous one. But the stark difference between Ricciardo's actions and Hamilton's in their respective incidents shows Ricciardo isn't one for betraying team confidences in the way that Hamilton is. And making comparisons about leaving their teams isn't really fair. In Hamilton case it likely would have been the most monumentally stupid decision of his career and would have cost him at least two titles and most likely put him out of the running for this one. In 2014 everyone knew that unless you had a Merc you weren't even close to being able to challenge and the rules made it next to impossible for anyone to catch up. By Spa it was already obvious that the only competition for titles would be between the Mercedes team mates for the foreseeable future. Ricciardo's decision is still a risk, but there isn't nearly as much at stake as with Hamilton's situation.

Yes the dominant car would have held Hamilton back from leaving the team as I'm sure it would have Ricciardo, good to see once again you having Rosberg's interests at heart.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:27 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
...and thrown Verstappen under the bus?

Why not? It was Verstappen's fault.

I know it was, I guess you just can't win, when Hamilton revealed that Rosberg chose to have an accident with him in Spa 2014 Hamilton got vilified by some for acting against his team and revealing what had been said behind closed doors.

We assume that Ricciardo was asked to take some blame by the team and doing otherwise would have been acting against his team so he played the good guy, ultimately did that do him any good I guess not because he left the team anyway.

It's strange that Hamilton goes ballistic and thinks about leaving the team but stays anyway, Ricciardo keeps it all in check, everything's fine then leaves the team.

The reason he got vilified was because Rosberg never said he chose to have an accident with Hamilton on purpose. And of course because Hamilton acted against his team and revealed what was said behind closed doors. Afterwards it turned out that the nuance between what Hamilton let everybody believe and the reality of what Rosberg said was quite different and Hamilton had made Rosberg out to be some kind of suicidal mega-villain that he never actually was.

Hamilton has form for twisting events to the public, Twittergate being the most famous one. But the stark difference between Ricciardo's actions and Hamilton's in their respective incidents shows Ricciardo isn't one for betraying team confidences in the way that Hamilton is. And making comparisons about leaving their teams isn't really fair. In Hamilton case it likely would have been the most monumentally stupid decision of his career and would have cost him at least two titles and most likely put him out of the running for this one. In 2014 everyone knew that unless you had a Merc you weren't even close to being able to challenge and the rules made it next to impossible for anyone to catch up. By Spa it was already obvious that the only competition for titles would be between the Mercedes team mates for the foreseeable future. Ricciardo's decision is still a risk, but there isn't nearly as much at stake as with Hamilton's situation.

Yes the dominant car would have held Hamilton back from leaving the team as I'm sure it would have Ricciardo, good to see once again you having Rosberg's interests at heart.
This is a very strange statement. Are you suggesting having a wholly dominant car wouldn't influence a driver's decision to leave? Explain.

What you call having Rosberg's interests at heart, I call pointing out the misdirection in your post. Hamilton claimed Rosberg chose to have an accident, but this was never supported by anybody else present at the meeting. Their version was that he chose to hold his ground and not give in, but Hamilton made it sound as though Rosberg deliberately rammed him. And this is the reason Hamilton was - to use your words - vilified. He was using the court of public opinion to try to turn people against Rosberg and the wording he chose was both inflammatory and disingenuous.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:39 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Why not? It was Verstappen's fault.

I know it was, I guess you just can't win, when Hamilton revealed that Rosberg chose to have an accident with him in Spa 2014 Hamilton got vilified by some for acting against his team and revealing what had been said behind closed doors.

We assume that Ricciardo was asked to take some blame by the team and doing otherwise would have been acting against his team so he played the good guy, ultimately did that do him any good I guess not because he left the team anyway.

It's strange that Hamilton goes ballistic and thinks about leaving the team but stays anyway, Ricciardo keeps it all in check, everything's fine then leaves the team.

The reason he got vilified was because Rosberg never said he chose to have an accident with Hamilton on purpose. And of course because Hamilton acted against his team and revealed what was said behind closed doors. Afterwards it turned out that the nuance between what Hamilton let everybody believe and the reality of what Rosberg said was quite different and Hamilton had made Rosberg out to be some kind of suicidal mega-villain that he never actually was.

Hamilton has form for twisting events to the public, Twittergate being the most famous one. But the stark difference between Ricciardo's actions and Hamilton's in their respective incidents shows Ricciardo isn't one for betraying team confidences in the way that Hamilton is. And making comparisons about leaving their teams isn't really fair. In Hamilton case it likely would have been the most monumentally stupid decision of his career and would have cost him at least two titles and most likely put him out of the running for this one. In 2014 everyone knew that unless you had a Merc you weren't even close to being able to challenge and the rules made it next to impossible for anyone to catch up. By Spa it was already obvious that the only competition for titles would be between the Mercedes team mates for the foreseeable future. Ricciardo's decision is still a risk, but there isn't nearly as much at stake as with Hamilton's situation.

Yes the dominant car would have held Hamilton back from leaving the team as I'm sure it would have Ricciardo, good to see once again you having Rosberg's interests at heart.
This is a very strange statement. Are you suggesting having a wholly dominant car wouldn't influence a driver's decision to leave? Explain.

What you call having Rosberg's interests at heart, I call pointing out the misdirection in your post. Hamilton claimed Rosberg chose to have an accident, but this was never supported by anybody else present at the meeting. Their version was that he chose to hold his ground and not give in, but Hamilton made it sound as though Rosberg deliberately rammed him. And this is the reason Hamilton was - to use your words - vilified. He was using the court of public opinion to try to turn people against Rosberg and the wording he chose was both inflammatory and disingenuous.

I clearly stated that it would so I was agreeing with you.

Rosberg was so innocent that didn't the team fine him?

You said that unlike Hamilton, Ricciardo would not betray the team's confidence, this is were I came in when people were saying that Ricciardo should not have protected Verstappen and gone against the team's wishes and then I worked it round to he might have been vilified like Hamilton?

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