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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You're only seeing the tip of the iceberg though and not all the politics behind the scene, why would Hamilton choose to act so irrationally?

Hamilton actually did an interview after the incident and said he was being left out of strategic meetings which involved Alonso, so I would be guessing that without a voice he acted out on the track.

He doesn't like things to be done behind his back, as we know he wasn't happy to walk into the McLaren factory to find Button and all the race engineers poring over his data.

Yes but in all fairness just because he feels hard done by doesn't mean he can take matters into his own hands. What he likes or dislikes is not the point. And remember we're discussing why Alonso was angry and it seems likely that Hamilton taking matters into his own hands and "stealing" Alonso's "perk" is what set him off. Whether Hamilton was right to feel left out or not isn't strictly speaking relevant in that context. It's his actions which started the ball rolling

There were plenty of things going on in the background, one I mentioned I'm sure other things as well.

Sure there were. But are you trying to pretend Alonso's action had nothing to do with Hamilton's? It's relevant at least

When did I pretend otherwise?

I'm trying to understand because you appear to making it as priority to justify Hamilton's actions, when that's not really relevant to Alonso's state of mind, which is what was being discussed. I don't see anywhere where you acknowledge that Hamilton's actions may have triggered Alonso, but plenty where you are seemingly defending what Hamilton did.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:47 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Well as with a lot of things it depends on who you ask.

For fans of Alonso they will tell you he's the best of the current generation based on what they think should have happened, and not what actually happened.

For the neutrals they look at him a different way and admire his talent.

In the previous generation the Iceman was seen as the next best thing (as he gave Schumacher a tough time but Mclaren/Mercedes let him down) though Alonso won the titles then.

In this generation you have Vettel and Hamilton, and I wonder how people feel Alonso is better than this guys, both of this guys have a lot of things above Alonso asides driving talent which all 3 have in spades.

I see people saying Alonso was unlucky et all, but miss the fact that somehow Vettel and Hamilton go to teams and drive them forward, whereas with Alonso the opposite happens it cant be a coincidence.
The same plans Ferrari showed to Vettel, Alonso had knowledge of it but felt Mclaren was better, Mclaren last real push for glory was in '12.

One thing people like Schumacher and Vettel understood quickly in F1 is that beating your team mate is good for a driver in midfield who wants to progress to a front running car, if you want to be a serial winner you work towards having a grid beating car and compete for championships, with Alonso its what he can do with someone else's hardwork.

Hamilton too was stuck in this Alonso kind of mindset of beating team mates until he looked at the numbers Vettel was racking up and realised there is no championship for it outside of your fans saying it.

So for his legacy he will be remembered for what could have been not what actually happened, which has always been par for the course with Alonso.

Hamilton's mindset actually has always been on winning titles rather than beating teammates, 2011 being a prime example of him losing the plot when Vettel set off like a steam train and then out of desperation Hamilton tried to join Red Bull, at that point of the season he was beating Button, Button was never a concern for him.

However I would say Alonso does prioritise beating teammates, has that ever been detrimental to team harmony apart from 2007 I couldn't say but I wonder why words like he can be divisive within teams by some F1 journalists is used, that's quite a strong word to use although the context of why it's said is never fully explained.


This is absurd, everyone wants to beat their team mates, they are your yard stick. It can't be any more straight forward than that, with the exception of being a Nr 2 driver of course. Plus, if you want to win the title, surely you'll have to beat your team mate when you are in a top team...

It sounds more like people trying to excuse Lewis for 2011. He had a horrible season by his standards, so many mistakes, if I remember correctly he was in the stewards office more often than the stewards themselves at some point!

Well 2011 he lost the plot early on because he couldn't win the title rather than concerns about Button beating him, I mean what driver walks up to a TP in full view of all the press and says I want to drive for your team when still under contract to another team, that was his focal point and state of mind.

Of course your true value is in beating your teammate but in due respect to Button I don't think he saw him as being on his level, of course by the end of the season getting beat by Button would have been a wake up call for him.

Then lets say I compare with Alonso in 2014 when he no chance of the title, you can see that 100% his focus was on beating Kimi along with the occasional barbed comment when he did it.

But yes as a rule a driver's priority is to beat his teammate.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:51 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Did you conveniently forget that it all started when Hamilton did not let him through? Alonso was furious and he retaliated. Wrongly in my opinion, two wrongs do not make a right, but I can't see how you believe that Alonso shouldn't be aggrieved when the other driver didn't follow the team's protocol, even if that driver is called Hamilton.

I'm probably losing track with the claim that Alonso did nothing wrong and was merely having a conversation about whether to change tyres or not.

Not sure what you are confusing here. I do not think anyone said that Alonso is completely blameless in the whole Hungary 2007 saga. But it all started by Hamilton's decision to jump the order and not let Alonso through as per the team's MO. What is so difficult to understand?

I don't think things were that simplistic, on the face of it Hamilton seems to be unreasonable whilst in the background a certain driver was playing politics about driver preferentiality which Hamilton alluded to in a interview a day after the event.

This is backed up the blackmail story were Hamilton had to be made the #2 driver, did all this make Hamilton paranoid to the point were he ignored team orders, I would say so.

You know a similar thing happened in qualifying this season with Ricciardo were he ignored team protocol in running order, straight away I thought why is Ricciardo being so paranoid and it reminded me of Hungary 2007, weeks later he leaves the team.

It showed perhaps that he felt the team were favouring Verstappen, likewise with Hamilton he felt the team was wavering under the pressure from Alonso which he explained in his interview were he said that strategies were discussed in meetings that included Alonso but not him.

The blackmail story happened after Hamilton had ignored the team. You got that one back to front.

It seems you are once again ignoring the point being made in an effort to absolve Hamilton of any part in the saga. Whether you believe he was justified or not is irrelevant. The fact he did it contributed to Alonso's own actions. Alonso didn't get upset for no reason

But what was Alonso's request when he tried to blackmail Dennis which alludes to what he was continually asking for.

When did I ever say that Alonso wasn't provoked into blocking Hamilton?

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Last edited by pokerman on Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:55 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Well as with a lot of things it depends on who you ask.

For fans of Alonso they will tell you he's the best of the current generation based on what they think should have happened, and not what actually happened.

For the neutrals they look at him a different way and admire his talent.

In the previous generation the Iceman was seen as the next best thing (as he gave Schumacher a tough time but Mclaren/Mercedes let him down) though Alonso won the titles then.

In this generation you have Vettel and Hamilton, and I wonder how people feel Alonso is better than this guys, both of this guys have a lot of things above Alonso asides driving talent which all 3 have in spades.

I see people saying Alonso was unlucky et all, but miss the fact that somehow Vettel and Hamilton go to teams and drive them forward, whereas with Alonso the opposite happens it cant be a coincidence.
The same plans Ferrari showed to Vettel, Alonso had knowledge of it but felt Mclaren was better, Mclaren last real push for glory was in '12.

One thing people like Schumacher and Vettel understood quickly in F1 is that beating your team mate is good for a driver in midfield who wants to progress to a front running car, if you want to be a serial winner you work towards having a grid beating car and compete for championships, with Alonso its what he can do with someone else's hardwork.

Hamilton too was stuck in this Alonso kind of mindset of beating team mates until he looked at the numbers Vettel was racking up and realised there is no championship for it outside of your fans saying it.

So for his legacy he will be remembered for what could have been not what actually happened, which has always been par for the course with Alonso.

Hamilton's mindset actually has always been on winning titles rather than beating teammates, 2011 being a prime example of him losing the plot when Vettel set off like a steam train and then out of desperation Hamilton tried to join Red Bull, at that point of the season he was beating Button, Button was never a concern for him.

However I would say Alonso does prioritise beating teammates, has that ever been detrimental to team harmony apart from 2007 I couldn't say but I wonder why words like he can be divisive within teams by some F1 journalists is used, that's quite a strong word to use although the context of why it's said is never fully explained.

I don't see that much difference between them in that respect. Whenever it looked like Hamilton was being beaten by a team mate he'd always let the world know it was down to circumstance. Hence Twittergate. I think both are focused on titles but the first person you have to beat on your way there is your team mate. Alonso is more obviously into self promotion not least because he's spent a lot of time in the positions that don't get a lot of recognition

Hamilton was in contention for the title unlike Button, it was an abject failure of the team to fully back his title campaign that lead to him leaving the team.

Remember Canada 2011 when Hamilton tried to pass Button but ended up squeezed into the wall and out of the race, Button won the race and Hamilton was seen clapping Button's win and was pleased for him, were was the excuse from Hamilton so I believe you are wrong.

and Alonso's never praised his team mate? er, OK

Like I said, no real difference

I just disproved what you said in respect to Hamilton which has nothing to do with what Alonso may or may not have done.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:57 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Yes but in all fairness just because he feels hard done by doesn't mean he can take matters into his own hands. What he likes or dislikes is not the point. And remember we're discussing why Alonso was angry and it seems likely that Hamilton taking matters into his own hands and "stealing" Alonso's "perk" is what set him off. Whether Hamilton was right to feel left out or not isn't strictly speaking relevant in that context. It's his actions which started the ball rolling

There were plenty of things going on in the background, one I mentioned I'm sure other things as well.

Sure there were. But are you trying to pretend Alonso's action had nothing to do with Hamilton's? It's relevant at least

When did I pretend otherwise?

I'm trying to understand because you appear to making it as priority to justify Hamilton's actions, when that's not really relevant to Alonso's state of mind, which is what was being discussed. I don't see anywhere where you acknowledge that Hamilton's actions may have triggered Alonso, but plenty where you are seemingly defending what Hamilton did.

Did you see me once say that Alonso was not provoked?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:03 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton's mindset actually has always been on winning titles rather than beating teammates, 2011 being a prime example of him losing the plot when Vettel set off like a steam train and then out of desperation Hamilton tried to join Red Bull, at that point of the season he was beating Button, Button was never a concern for him.

However I would say Alonso does prioritise beating teammates, has that ever been detrimental to team harmony apart from 2007 I couldn't say but I wonder why words like he can be divisive within teams by some F1 journalists is used, that's quite a strong word to use although the context of why it's said is never fully explained.

I don't see that much difference between them in that respect. Whenever it looked like Hamilton was being beaten by a team mate he'd always let the world know it was down to circumstance. Hence Twittergate. I think both are focused on titles but the first person you have to beat on your way there is your team mate. Alonso is more obviously into self promotion not least because he's spent a lot of time in the positions that don't get a lot of recognition

Hamilton was in contention for the title unlike Button, it was an abject failure of the team to fully back his title campaign that lead to him leaving the team.

Remember Canada 2011 when Hamilton tried to pass Button but ended up squeezed into the wall and out of the race, Button won the race and Hamilton was seen clapping Button's win and was pleased for him, were was the excuse from Hamilton so I believe you are wrong.

and Alonso's never praised his team mate? er, OK

Like I said, no real difference

I just disproved what you said in respect to Hamilton which has nothing to do with what Alonso may or may not have done.

You have a strange concept of proof.

Still don't see any difference


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There were plenty of things going on in the background, one I mentioned I'm sure other things as well.

Sure there were. But are you trying to pretend Alonso's action had nothing to do with Hamilton's? It's relevant at least

When did I pretend otherwise?

I'm trying to understand because you appear to making it as priority to justify Hamilton's actions, when that's not really relevant to Alonso's state of mind, which is what was being discussed. I don't see anywhere where you acknowledge that Hamilton's actions may have triggered Alonso, but plenty where you are seemingly defending what Hamilton did.

Did you see me once say that Alonso was not provoked?

Well almost every time it's mentioned you appear to try to deflect from it without actually acknowledging it?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:16 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
And once again we are back to a Hamilton versus discussion. Amazing.

People have been discussing Alonso's state of mind in this particular incident, which itself set off a chain of events which heavily influenced Alonso's legacy, so it's relevant. And unfortunately Hamilton is involved in this, if only as a catalyst. Where the discussion appears to be getting bogged down is that some are getting hung up on blame, whereas in reality the only real relevance is to point out how it may have affected Alonso's mind and subsequent actions. Who was right or wrong is another discussion entirely

In any case I don't think the Hungary incident was the trigger that tore the team in two that season, Alonso's mental capitulation had occurred much sooner. He was all over the place in the Canadian GP with several uncharacteristic off-track excursions; I could only conclude that it was all frustration at being behind Hamilton because I've never seen him drive that badly before or since. Then there was the outburst over the radio in the next race in Indy where he demanded that the team apply team orders to give him the win. For his part Hamilton was noticeably peeved at being told to hold station behind Alonso in Monaco and was clearly not prepared to play second fiddle and was only going to retaliate to Alonso's attempts to engineer himself number 1 status in the team. I'd rather see Hungary as the final straw in a tit-for-tat battle for supremacy that had been escalating for the entire year. Probably ever since Hamilton stuck it round the outside of Alonso at Turn 1 in Australia.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:22 pm 
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j man wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
And once again we are back to a Hamilton versus discussion. Amazing.

People have been discussing Alonso's state of mind in this particular incident, which itself set off a chain of events which heavily influenced Alonso's legacy, so it's relevant. And unfortunately Hamilton is involved in this, if only as a catalyst. Where the discussion appears to be getting bogged down is that some are getting hung up on blame, whereas in reality the only real relevance is to point out how it may have affected Alonso's mind and subsequent actions. Who was right or wrong is another discussion entirely

In any case I don't think the Hungary incident was the trigger that tore the team in two that season, Alonso's mental capitulation had occurred much sooner. He was all over the place in the Canadian GP with several uncharacteristic off-track excursions; I could only conclude that it was all frustration at being behind Hamilton because I've never seen him drive that badly before or since. Then there was the outburst over the radio in the next race in Indy where he demanded that the team apply team orders to give him the win. For his part Hamilton was noticeably peeved at being told to hold station behind Alonso in Monaco and was clearly not prepared to play second fiddle and was only going to retaliate to Alonso's attempts to engineer himself number 1 status in the team. I'd rather see Hungary as the final straw in a tit-for-tat battle for supremacy that had been escalating for the entire year. Probably ever since Hamilton stuck it round the outside of Alonso at Turn 1 in Australia.

yeah I'd agree that things were in motion before that. But it was always salvageable. Hungary was the tipping point and the moment where the writing was on the wall as far as career direction goes


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:48 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYDQzH2VI-w


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:50 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
yeah I'd agree that things were in motion before that. But it was always salvageable. Hungary was the tipping point and the moment where the writing was on the wall as far as career direction goes


From reading an article by Marc Priestly a long time ago I think things started to really blow up after the Monaco GP in 2007.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:26 pm 
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Alonso's book comes out in a few months and we'll just be doing it all again anyway when he gives his version of it so I'll avoid the 2007 talk until then and move swiftly on...

So it sounds like he's doing an Indy test with Andretti-Honda next month or October to get a feel for the 2018 aero kit on a road course so I don't think we'll hear any confirmation about IndyCar until after that but I hope that's what he does but his WEC contract could still be a sticky point for either Honda or Toyota or both. Got the go ahead for the test though so hopefully it's all good.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:38 pm 
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The Honda engines used in Indy come from Honda America and it's been said they don't have the same sort of hang ups about drivers running a different make in other series that the home base does.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:40 pm 
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Hope so anyway yeah but it's Toyota as well that need to be ok with it.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:55 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
One of the best of all time. 2 WDC, near 100 podiums and 6th all time in the wins column without sitting in a dominant car. Far too many bad cars and unlucky that his career had 3 different dominant car periods. Never lost a h2h over a season, beat Schumacher heads up in one of the best WDC years in history, has another atg season in 2012. Fell just shy of 3 other titles without the best car, by 1pt,3pts and 5pts.

One of the most consistent drivers I've ever seen with no on track weaknesses. Most talented out and out driver I've seen, any type of car or car issue and he can drive around it and be competitive.


Seconded. It's a shame he didn't stay at Ferrari as he probably would have won the WDC this and last year. Ah well F1's loss will be Indy's gain which I will be following a lot more closer in future with Alonso in it. His ability to drive any bad car to its potential is truly a unique talent in the sport and which he had to call on with so many Ferraris and McLarens. Hopefully McLaren can be competitive in the future so he can return for a glorious finale. One last thing, Alonso's legacy has shown that no driver is indispensable or greater than a team which any future hotrod will be wise to realise before acting up.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:32 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Alonso's book comes out in a few months and we'll just be doing it all again anyway when he gives his version of it so I'll avoid the 2007 talk until then and move swiftly on..
.


Alonso is / has been writing a book? An auto-biography?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:58 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Alonso's book comes out in a few months and we'll just be doing it all again anyway when he gives his version of it so I'll avoid the 2007 talk until then and move swiftly on..
.


Alonso is / has been writing a book? An auto-biography?


Apparently an autobiography yeah that's coming at the end of the year.


https://drivetribe.com/p/fernando-alons ... tvDwO1lQsw

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:14 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Alonso's book comes out in a few months and we'll just be doing it all again anyway when he gives his version of it so I'll avoid the 2007 talk until then and move swiftly on..
.


Alonso is / has been writing a book? An auto-biography?


Apparently an autobiography yeah that's coming at the end of the year.


https://drivetribe.com/p/fernando-alons ... tvDwO1lQsw


Thanks for the link. Could be an interesting read, maybe.

Last F1-related autobiography I read was the one from long-time Mercedes race director Alfred Neubauer. A very entertaining read!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:05 am 
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:thumbup:

No worries. I'll be buying it yeah, I'm hoping he doesn't go full scorched earth though but at the same time It'd keep us entertained over the winter if he did...

:nod: :-P

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:07 am 
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mas wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
One of the best of all time. 2 WDC, near 100 podiums and 6th all time in the wins column without sitting in a dominant car. Far too many bad cars and unlucky that his career had 3 different dominant car periods. Never lost a h2h over a season, beat Schumacher heads up in one of the best WDC years in history, has another atg season in 2012. Fell just shy of 3 other titles without the best car, by 1pt,3pts and 5pts.

One of the most consistent drivers I've ever seen with no on track weaknesses. Most talented out and out driver I've seen, any type of car or car issue and he can drive around it and be competitive.


Seconded. It's a shame he didn't stay at Ferrari as he probably would have won the WDC this and last year. Ah well F1's loss will be Indy's gain which I will be following a lot more closer in future with Alonso in it. His ability to drive any bad car to its potential is truly a unique talent in the sport and which he had to call on with so many Ferraris and McLarens. Hopefully McLaren can be competitive in the future so he can return for a glorious finale. One last thing, Alonso's legacy has shown that no driver is indispensable or greater than a team which any future hotrod will be wise to realise before acting up.

Love the guy but I never thought anyone would have won in last year's Ferrari. Their unreliability would have prevented it. And Lewis really was immense last year

I believe he'd be walking to the title in this year's Ferrari though. And he's not the only driver I think would be accomplishing that

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:42 am 
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Lojik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah I'd agree that things were in motion before that. But it was always salvageable. Hungary was the tipping point and the moment where the writing was on the wall as far as career direction goes


From reading an article by Marc Priestly a long time ago I think things started to really blow up after the Monaco GP in 2007.

Wasn't that when Hamilton complained about being a Nr2 driver?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:08 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
:thumbup:

No worries. I'll be buying it yeah, I'm hoping he doesn't go full scorched earth though but at the same time It'd keep us entertained over the winter if he did...

:nod: :-P


I suspect some of the replies will be more entertaining than the Revelations. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:49 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Alonso’s 2010 is severely overrated. Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica and Rosberg all drove better and more consistent seasons than he did. I’m more than happy to debate anyone who disagrees.

With that being said, I’m still very sad to see such a terrific driver leave the sport. In his prime, his racecraft was unreal.


You must be joking.

Vettel drove not worse, but MUCH WORSE than Fernando that year. It wasn't even a contest. Vettel crashed several times, one of them against his teammate! Only the great car advantage for Red Bull, and inordinate amounts of good luck made Vettel, the crash kid, a champ. Get over it.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:54 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel and Alonso both had an equal opportunity to win the 2010 championship. In the end, the better man won.

And I suppose if Webber hadn't been pitted at the wrong time in Abu Dhabi, he would have been the better man than either of them?

Webber had already lost to Vettel before his pit stop. He needed to beat Vettel in that race and was being dropped at a rate of 10 seconds in 15 laps.

Anyway, Webber had the best car in 2010. He had the fastest car minus the unreliability Vettel suffered. Webber would have been a lucky WDC, like Rosberg.

Alonso and Vettel had equal cars in 2010 if you take both speed and reliability into account.


And you made that calculation how?

I'd have no trouble choosing my car for that season, and I can assure you it wasn't red. And I guess most would do.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:02 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel and Alonso both had an equal opportunity to win the 2010 championship. In the end, the better man won.

And I suppose if Webber hadn't been pitted at the wrong time in Abu Dhabi, he would have been the better man than either of them?

Webber had already lost to Vettel before his pit stop. He needed to beat Vettel in that race and was being dropped at a rate of 10 seconds in 15 laps.

Anyway, Webber had the best car in 2010. He had the fastest car minus the unreliability Vettel suffered. Webber would have been a lucky WDC, like Rosberg.

Alonso and Vettel had equal cars in 2010 if you take both speed and reliability into account.


What complete rot. How are cars nearly half a second apart on average be any way near equal? Having to make up that pace deficit will define how you approach every session and Alonso who was also new to the team did too much at times and made mistakes but had at least one reliability issue I can think of in Malaysia as well that meant they had to run his remaining engines on lower damage cycles (less power) to make it through the year as well as that dodgy penalty in GB.

He was only in the title fight because Seb shared too many points with Webber,made his own mistakes and yeah had that unreliability. We also had Lewis and JB sharing points otherwise Lewis would've (deservedly) taken it over both.

Getting into a title fight with a car half a second slower isn't a plus point for Seb and negative for Alonso as you try and make out and that's why the team bosses named Alonso the best driver despite those mistakes, he just shouldn't have been in the fight with that car to begin with. (Lewis was DOTY imo but they at least acknowledge the car difference between the title protagonists by giving it to Alonso)

Calling it equal is like calling this years Red Bull equal to Merc and Ferrari, it's silly. There would've been opportunity for a lead Bull driver with a support act to be in this years title fight because of the plethora of issues the lead drivers have had at Merc/Ferrari (If the Bull was reliable anyway) but it wouldn't make the cars or opportunity they have equal at all. It's being in a position to take advantage of mistakes vs being able to approach the weekend knowing you have the car to top each session like the RB6 gave.

It's chalk and cheese.


Exactly. Better explained than I could do.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:08 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.


What bridges did he burn in 2007 that he could have walked across later in his career? He is clearly driving for McLaren again, unless I'm completely wrong on what you mean with this comment

Possibly Mercedes. I think I read somewhere that Mercedes wouldn't touch him because of his actions in 2007, although I could be wrong


Careful. These Germans have a thin skin and loooong childish memories to avenge, even while winning... 8O
:-P
It's amazing, really...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.

yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.


Exactly because that was the calendar of strategies that everybody has signed for beforehand. Only for Lewis to want to change it all by himself. Very mature, everything. Let's just say everyone covered themselves in glory that weekend


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:23 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst


Yes, Alonso didn't want the same advantage that Hamilton had as mentioned above, they had a rotation system that had one driver with an extra lap's fuel in a race by race rotation. In Hungary it was Alonso's turn to have the advantage but Hamilton did not let him pass, justifying his action by saying that Kimi would have also gotten through. This prompted Alonso's retaliation. The rest is history


Yes in theory Hungary was Alonso's turn, but since the race before was Hamilton's turn and he could not participate because of the crash in qualifyings, Lewis pretended to make Hungary his. It was only fair from his point of view. The system was designed to keep things fair.


So, let's summarize the facts:
- Hamilton violated explicit qualifying team orders to disadvantage Alonso and for his own benefit. Fact.
- Alonso delayed Hamilton in retaliation. Fact.
- Did Alonso act against explicit orders from the team (e.g. shouting at him to drive out of the pits) or did he act in accordance with relevant team representatives (Slade talking to him about tyres ...) or did the team silently condoned his retaliation. AFAIK, this is actually unknown, no version of these events can be called a fact.
- The FIA penalized Alonso for impeding Hamilton but not Hamilton for impeding Alonso (what he evidently also did). Fact.
- Was the FIA verdict fair and/or justified? No fact, matter of opinion.

IMO, Alonso threatening Dennis with blackmailing in the heat of the moment during a hefty discussion was a huge mistake and can be called a mental disintegration - for a few moments. He soon after backtracked, but too late for the events to unfold due to Dennis (over-)reaction. It was the mistake of a 25 year old confronted with new experience of adversity. If that defines his career for some, that is sort of harsh. ;-)


Indeed. Perfect summary and assessment. But remember, some are still mulling over it, keeping tabs on how much they hate him and don't want him near after more than a decade has passed.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Well as with a lot of things it depends on who you ask.

For fans of Alonso they will tell you he's the best of the current generation based on what they think should have happened, and not what actually happened.

For the neutrals they look at him a different way and admire his talent.

In the previous generation the Iceman was seen as the next best thing (as he gave Schumacher a tough time but Mclaren/Mercedes let him down) though Alonso won the titles then.

In this generation you have Vettel and Hamilton, and I wonder how people feel Alonso is better than this guys, both of this guys have a lot of things above Alonso asides driving talent which all 3 have in spades.

I see people saying Alonso was unlucky et all, but miss the fact that somehow Vettel and Hamilton go to teams and drive them forward, whereas with Alonso the opposite happens it cant be a coincidence.
The same plans Ferrari showed to Vettel, Alonso had knowledge of it but felt Mclaren was better, Mclaren last real push for glory was in '12.

One thing people like Schumacher and Vettel understood quickly in F1 is that beating your team mate is good for a driver in midfield who wants to progress to a front running car, if you want to be a serial winner you work towards having a grid beating car and compete for championships, with Alonso its what he can do with someone else's hardwork.

Hamilton too was stuck in this Alonso kind of mindset of beating team mates until he looked at the numbers Vettel was racking up and realised there is no championship for it outside of your fans saying it.

So for his legacy he will be remembered for what could have been not what actually happened, which has always been par for the course with Alonso.

Hamilton's mindset actually has always been on winning titles rather than beating teammates, 2011 being a prime example of him losing the plot when Vettel set off like a steam train and then out of desperation Hamilton tried to join Red Bull, at that point of the season he was beating Button, Button was never a concern for him.

However I would say Alonso does prioritise beating teammates, has that ever been detrimental to team harmony apart from 2007 I couldn't say but I wonder why words like he can be divisive within teams by some F1 journalists is used, that's quite a strong word to use although the context of why it's said is never fully explained.


The divisive driver is the only one in recent memory to have been taken back by two teams. Two out of three teams (if we discount Minardi) actually felt he was ok, and they were happy with his teamwork.
I think he just fitted the character... we all love to simplify and like people behaving as expected. And if they don't we need to pretend they do. Much easier to deal with...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:59 pm 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Alonso’s 2010 is severely overrated. Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica and Rosberg all drove better and more consistent seasons than he did. I’m more than happy to debate anyone who disagrees.

With that being said, I’m still very sad to see such a terrific driver leave the sport. In his prime, his racecraft was unreal.


You must be joking.

Vettel drove not worse, but MUCH WORSE than Fernando that year. It wasn't even a contest. Vettel crashed several times, one of them against his teammate! Only the great car advantage for Red Bull, and inordinate amounts of good luck made Vettel, the crash kid, a champ. Get over it.

Actually both driver had three costly accidents that I can recall. Alonso in Australia, Monaco and Spa. Vettel in Turkey, Silverstone and Spa. Alonso also cost himself a heap of points with the silly chicane-cutting episode in Silverstone. He was fantastic in the latter part of the year, but overall 2010 was not a good season for Alonso by his high standards.

EDIT: Also if we want to talk about luck, Vettel lost many more points through unreliability than anyone else that year. Wins in Bahrain, Australia and Korea were his until his car failed.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:10 am 
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Oh my... http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/243 ... ision-quit

First, his cars are not good enough. Now, the sport itself is not good enough. Blame anything else. Sorta like the politics we enjoy (not) in America.

So Fernando... please... for any good you have done, please go...

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:14 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't see that much difference between them in that respect. Whenever it looked like Hamilton was being beaten by a team mate he'd always let the world know it was down to circumstance. Hence Twittergate. I think both are focused on titles but the first person you have to beat on your way there is your team mate. Alonso is more obviously into self promotion not least because he's spent a lot of time in the positions that don't get a lot of recognition

Hamilton was in contention for the title unlike Button, it was an abject failure of the team to fully back his title campaign that lead to him leaving the team.

Remember Canada 2011 when Hamilton tried to pass Button but ended up squeezed into the wall and out of the race, Button won the race and Hamilton was seen clapping Button's win and was pleased for him, were was the excuse from Hamilton so I believe you are wrong.

and Alonso's never praised his team mate? er, OK

Like I said, no real difference

I just disproved what you said in respect to Hamilton which has nothing to do with what Alonso may or may not have done.

You have a strange concept of proof.

Still don't see any difference

You said that Hamilton needs to make an excuse when he gets beat by his teammate.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:20 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Sure there were. But are you trying to pretend Alonso's action had nothing to do with Hamilton's? It's relevant at least

When did I pretend otherwise?

I'm trying to understand because you appear to making it as priority to justify Hamilton's actions, when that's not really relevant to Alonso's state of mind, which is what was being discussed. I don't see anywhere where you acknowledge that Hamilton's actions may have triggered Alonso, but plenty where you are seemingly defending what Hamilton did.

Did you see me once say that Alonso was not provoked?

Well almost every time it's mentioned you appear to try to deflect from it without actually acknowledging it?

Why Alonso did what he did is like stating an obvious, the only things that are debatable would be was he justified to react like he did, and also claims that it was unintentional and he was merely having a discussion about his tyres.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:29 am 
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j man wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lojik wrote:
And once again we are back to a Hamilton versus discussion. Amazing.

People have been discussing Alonso's state of mind in this particular incident, which itself set off a chain of events which heavily influenced Alonso's legacy, so it's relevant. And unfortunately Hamilton is involved in this, if only as a catalyst. Where the discussion appears to be getting bogged down is that some are getting hung up on blame, whereas in reality the only real relevance is to point out how it may have affected Alonso's mind and subsequent actions. Who was right or wrong is another discussion entirely

In any case I don't think the Hungary incident was the trigger that tore the team in two that season, Alonso's mental capitulation had occurred much sooner. He was all over the place in the Canadian GP with several uncharacteristic off-track excursions; I could only conclude that it was all frustration at being behind Hamilton because I've never seen him drive that badly before or since. Then there was the outburst over the radio in the next race in Indy where he demanded that the team apply team orders to give him the win. For his part Hamilton was noticeably peeved at being told to hold station behind Alonso in Monaco and was clearly not prepared to play second fiddle and was only going to retaliate to Alonso's attempts to engineer himself number 1 status in the team. I'd rather see Hungary as the final straw in a tit-for-tat battle for supremacy that had been escalating for the entire year. Probably ever since Hamilton stuck it round the outside of Alonso at Turn 1 in Australia.

Indeed which I was trying to explain with Hungary being the tipping point not just an isolated thing that happened out of the blue.

The battle for supremacy was Alonso wanting #1 status and Hamilton wanting equal status, I can never understand why perhaps Hamilton himself could ever be portrayed as a villain in all of this. I can understand a driver earning #1 status by simply being better but when 2 drivers are close to equal it's so wrong for one driver expecting to be given #1 status when it's not even in a contract.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:31 am 
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Lojik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah I'd agree that things were in motion before that. But it was always salvageable. Hungary was the tipping point and the moment where the writing was on the wall as far as career direction goes


From reading an article by Marc Priestly a long time ago I think things started to really blow up after the Monaco GP in 2007.

Yes I can believe that, after Monaco Alonso had the #1 status taken away from him.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:32 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Alonso's book comes out in a few months and we'll just be doing it all again anyway when he gives his version of it so I'll avoid the 2007 talk until then and move swiftly on...

So it sounds like he's doing an Indy test with Andretti-Honda next month or October to get a feel for the 2018 aero kit on a road course so I don't think we'll hear any confirmation about IndyCar until after that but I hope that's what he does but his WEC contract could still be a sticky point for either Honda or Toyota or both. Got the go ahead for the test though so hopefully it's all good.

I thought there was some kind of restraining order that neither side, Alonso or McLaren could discuss what happened in 2007?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:35 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah I'd agree that things were in motion before that. But it was always salvageable. Hungary was the tipping point and the moment where the writing was on the wall as far as career direction goes


From reading an article by Marc Priestly a long time ago I think things started to really blow up after the Monaco GP in 2007.

Wasn't that when Hamilton complained about being a Nr2 driver?

Yep.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:40 am 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Well as with a lot of things it depends on who you ask.

For fans of Alonso they will tell you he's the best of the current generation based on what they think should have happened, and not what actually happened.

For the neutrals they look at him a different way and admire his talent.

In the previous generation the Iceman was seen as the next best thing (as he gave Schumacher a tough time but Mclaren/Mercedes let him down) though Alonso won the titles then.

In this generation you have Vettel and Hamilton, and I wonder how people feel Alonso is better than this guys, both of this guys have a lot of things above Alonso asides driving talent which all 3 have in spades.

I see people saying Alonso was unlucky et all, but miss the fact that somehow Vettel and Hamilton go to teams and drive them forward, whereas with Alonso the opposite happens it cant be a coincidence.
The same plans Ferrari showed to Vettel, Alonso had knowledge of it but felt Mclaren was better, Mclaren last real push for glory was in '12.

One thing people like Schumacher and Vettel understood quickly in F1 is that beating your team mate is good for a driver in midfield who wants to progress to a front running car, if you want to be a serial winner you work towards having a grid beating car and compete for championships, with Alonso its what he can do with someone else's hardwork.

Hamilton too was stuck in this Alonso kind of mindset of beating team mates until he looked at the numbers Vettel was racking up and realised there is no championship for it outside of your fans saying it.

So for his legacy he will be remembered for what could have been not what actually happened, which has always been par for the course with Alonso.

Hamilton's mindset actually has always been on winning titles rather than beating teammates, 2011 being a prime example of him losing the plot when Vettel set off like a steam train and then out of desperation Hamilton tried to join Red Bull, at that point of the season he was beating Button, Button was never a concern for him.

However I would say Alonso does prioritise beating teammates, has that ever been detrimental to team harmony apart from 2007 I couldn't say but I wonder why words like he can be divisive within teams by some F1 journalists is used, that's quite a strong word to use although the context of why it's said is never fully explained.


The divisive driver is the only one in recent memory to have been taken back by two teams. Two out of three teams (if we discount Minardi) actually felt he was ok, and they were happy with his teamwork.
I think he just fitted the character... we all love to simplify and like people behaving as expected. And if they don't we need to pretend they do. Much easier to deal with...

Both teams were in the midfield when they took him back and not in great shape.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:30 am 
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pokerman wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Well as with a lot of things it depends on who you ask.

For fans of Alonso they will tell you he's the best of the current generation based on what they think should have happened, and not what actually happened.

For the neutrals they look at him a different way and admire his talent.

In the previous generation the Iceman was seen as the next best thing (as he gave Schumacher a tough time but Mclaren/Mercedes let him down) though Alonso won the titles then.

In this generation you have Vettel and Hamilton, and I wonder how people feel Alonso is better than this guys, both of this guys have a lot of things above Alonso asides driving talent which all 3 have in spades.

I see people saying Alonso was unlucky et all, but miss the fact that somehow Vettel and Hamilton go to teams and drive them forward, whereas with Alonso the opposite happens it cant be a coincidence.
The same plans Ferrari showed to Vettel, Alonso had knowledge of it but felt Mclaren was better, Mclaren last real push for glory was in '12.

One thing people like Schumacher and Vettel understood quickly in F1 is that beating your team mate is good for a driver in midfield who wants to progress to a front running car, if you want to be a serial winner you work towards having a grid beating car and compete for championships, with Alonso its what he can do with someone else's hardwork.

Hamilton too was stuck in this Alonso kind of mindset of beating team mates until he looked at the numbers Vettel was racking up and realised there is no championship for it outside of your fans saying it.

So for his legacy he will be remembered for what could have been not what actually happened, which has always been par for the course with Alonso.

Hamilton's mindset actually has always been on winning titles rather than beating teammates, 2011 being a prime example of him losing the plot when Vettel set off like a steam train and then out of desperation Hamilton tried to join Red Bull, at that point of the season he was beating Button, Button was never a concern for him.

However I would say Alonso does prioritise beating teammates, has that ever been detrimental to team harmony apart from 2007 I couldn't say but I wonder why words like he can be divisive within teams by some F1 journalists is used, that's quite a strong word to use although the context of why it's said is never fully explained.


The divisive driver is the only one in recent memory to have been taken back by two teams. Two out of three teams (if we discount Minardi) actually felt he was ok, and they were happy with his teamwork.
I think he just fitted the character... we all love to simplify and like people behaving as expected. And if they don't we need to pretend they do. Much easier to deal with...

Both teams were in the midfield when they took him back and not in great shape.


Renault were only a year away from there back to back championships. Hardly hopeless. The whole Alonso is bad for a team thing is well over blown and I think used as an excuse from team bosses who simply don't want two roosters in the hen house. He's had 11 different team mates in F1 and he's only ever had an issue with one of them.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:33 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Alonso's book comes out in a few months and we'll just be doing it all again anyway when he gives his version of it so I'll avoid the 2007 talk until then and move swiftly on...

So it sounds like he's doing an Indy test with Andretti-Honda next month or October to get a feel for the 2018 aero kit on a road course so I don't think we'll hear any confirmation about IndyCar until after that but I hope that's what he does but his WEC contract could still be a sticky point for either Honda or Toyota or both. Got the go ahead for the test though so hopefully it's all good.

I thought there was some kind of restraining order that neither side, Alonso or McLaren could discuss what happened in 2007?


Is there? Certain things might be no-go like details of his release and Spygate but he's bound to talk about the decision to join, the tyre/brake issues and his relationship with the team and Lewis in some form you'd think.

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