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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:04 pm 
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j man wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
It's not Alonso's word though to be fair it's Whitmarsh who said Ron later admitted to him he promised No.1 status to Alonso.

I was not aware of that but if true then I am more inclined to believe it. However we still don't know what exactly this promised "number 1 status" entailed because there are many varying degrees to which a driver can be favoured. McLaren under Ron Dennis were not averse to playing favourites with drivers but never to the extent of what Alonso had at Renault. So again, was it just Alonso having unrealistic expectations of what was being promised to him given his own past experience of what "number 1 status" means?


I don't think there's much scope for confusion tbh, everyone knows what a number 1 driver gets, it wasn't a dirty word back then it was just the way things were done most of the time in F1 throughout its history because it helps you win in a non spec series. It's hard enough to race faster cars never mind having to deal with a team mate in an equal one. It just means giving your focus and support to the lead car, so upgrades,strategy etc. We had that dumb fuel burn era quali so they needed some of those things, today it's really just upgrades and strategy, engines are all equal for the most part.

It only became a dirty word after Scumacher/Ferrari for whatever reason but we're heading back to those days right now, all top drivers will be in their own teams with a comfortable gap to the number 2 next year, it would've been five if Alonso stayed, but they're just not going to advertise it like that anymore because of the reaction to it in the 00's but there's no difference, it's creating comfortable conditions for your best driver to be successful on track and limit internal issues within the team.

Lewis was just quicker than expected and Alonso didn't carry his advantage on Michelin's over to the Bridgestones for whatever reason so it blew up after Alonso couldn't put him away when he did have the priority support in the opening rounds.

The Whitmarsh bit was in here, it says priority status rather than number 1 status though but it's the same thing really. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/30291496

Quote:
On the day of the row in Hungary, McLaren's then managing director Martin Whitmarsh tried to persuade Dennis to sack Alonso immediately - before that weekend's race.

Yet, some years later, Whitmarsh admitted he did not at that point have all the relevant information and when he did, he was more understanding - if not forgiving - of Alonso's actions.

The issue at the heart of the problems within McLaren all that year was Alonso's demand for the team to focus their title challenge on him, rather than split their efforts by giving team-mate Lewis Hamilton equal status.

That was true to McLaren's long-stated ethos. But Whitmarsh later discovered that when Dennis signed Alonso he had indeed promised him priority status, only to go back on his word.


So much for me not discussing 2007 until the book comes out, that lasted all of a day... :blush: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:01 pm 
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j man wrote:
Zoue wrote:
j man wrote:
Zoue wrote:
j man wrote:
Standing his ground was perhaps the wrong turn of phrase. I'm not portraying Hamilton as innocent in the whole affair, but in simplistic terms the way I see it is Alonso started it but then Hamilton escalated it because otherwise he ran the risk of playing second fiddle for the rest of their time as team mates. Just as has happened with Kimi Raikkonen at Ferrari.

Bit nervous about opening a whole other can of worms on this bit I'm a bit curious as to how Alonso started it. IIRC it started with Hamilton kicking off about team orders at Monaco and then Alonso getting all upset that Ron (in his eyes) didn't defend Alonso strongly enough to the UK Press. The "feud," for want of a better word, started there

I believe Alonso started it with a misplaced belief that the team would revolve around him in the same manner that Renault had done. And when that favoured status didn't materialise he started to try to engineer the situation himself, the most ridiculous example coming at Indy with his demand that Hamilton be ordered to let him past. For Hamilton to react so vehemently to events at Monaco there must have already been some tensions simmering, I wouldn't see it as a rational response even for an unpredictable character as Hamilton.

This is all speculation of course. As I said before none of us really know what went on behind closed doors, this is merely my interpretation of events.

I don't think it's far fetched to think that RD might have implied Alonso was No 1, or that that in itself was somehow something curious. Alonso was a double WDC, while Hamilton at the time was a nobody. You'd expect the team to focus on their star under those circumstances. Where it went wrong IMO was the level of support Alonso was expecting to get and the power of the UK Press to influence things in Hamilton's favour (as opposed to favouritism). But I don't think Alonso wanting/expecting the team to focus on him was "starting" it. By all accounts he felt besieged by the publicity campaign against him and clearly couldn't handle it and no doubt felt that some of the comments made from the Hamilton camp were a direct attack on him

To be honest I don't recall much of a UK media campaign against Alonso until after the Hungary incident. Of course they were very pro-Hamilton right from the start but I don't remember Alonso being portrayed as the villain until much later on. What were these comments to the media from the Hamilton camp? I can't recall anything like that and Google has not provided any answers.

I think this comment from Ron Dennis shows the root of the problem. If that was Alonso's attitude to Hamilton prior to the season then is it any wonder that he lashed out in response to being beaten in some of those early races?
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/161435/1/ ... ton-a-risk

well poker has alluded to the Hamiltons complaining that Alonso pulled strings to get DLR to do testing at Barcelona, while at Monaco it's no secret that Hamilton claimed he had been unfairly held back and without team orders he would have comfortably beaten Alonso. That's when it all started getting a bit tense and Alonso was reportedly angry with RD that the latter hadn't refuted Hamilton's claim, specifically with regard to beating Alonso without the latter's claimed favoured treatment. The press had a field day with reports that Hamilton was being held back and was the faster driver, which got on Alonso's wick no end.

I'd agree on the whole it was Alonso's inability to cope with a rookie matching him that was the underlying root of the issue, but his state of mind wasn't helped by the public digs. Bottom line he should have manned up and not let it get to him, but unfortunately it did and that set him down the path which has ended with him being where he is now, a "mere" double WDC instead of potentially knocking on Schumacher's records


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:47 pm 
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Kev627 wrote:
Due to Alonso's poor or badly timed team moves and his reluctance to stay with good teams despite his 2 WDCs I never think of Alonso as a particularly fantastic driver at all. Very much a case of 'so what?'.

McLaren 2007 is the only team that fits the "reluctance to stay with good teams" bit. And that was a team & driver mutual decision. Ron wasn't exactly begging him to stay

Ferrari in 2014 looked lost. And things weren't looking up in any way. They didn't have a good handle on the engines. They started chopping the management from the top down. It very much looked like early 90s Ferrari all over again - a particularly messy period in their history. I hate when people claim that they knew Ferrari were going to come good again. Nobody knew. And still, it took 3 years for them to get to the level Alonso felt it was worth staying for

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:54 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
Due to Alonso's poor or badly timed team moves and his reluctance to stay with good teams despite his 2 WDCs I never think of Alonso as a particularly fantastic driver at all. Very much a case of 'so what?'.

McLaren 2007 is the only team that fits the "reluctance to stay with good teams" bit. And that was a team & driver mutual decision. Ron wasn't exactly begging him to stay

Ferrari in 2014 looked lost. And things weren't looking up in any way. They didn't have a good handle on the engines. They started chopping the management from the top down. It very much looked like early 90s Ferrari all over again - a particularly messy period in their history. I hate when people claim that they knew Ferrari were going to come good again. Nobody knew. And still, it took 3 years for them to get to the level Alonso felt it was worth staying for


Yes at the time it was hardly a no brainer to stay. it was obvious Ferrari and Renault weren't about to catch Merc in the engine department so jumping on board with Mclaren Honda looked just about the only opportunity to compete for a championship if Merc themselves weren't going to hire you. People at the time even talked about what a massive advantage Honda would have being able to develop for a whole extra season and not be restricted by the ludicrous token system that was in place at the time.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:10 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
Due to Alonso's poor or badly timed team moves and his reluctance to stay with good teams despite his 2 WDCs I never think of Alonso as a particularly fantastic driver at all. Very much a case of 'so what?'.

McLaren 2007 is the only team that fits the "reluctance to stay with good teams" bit. And that was a team & driver mutual decision. Ron wasn't exactly begging him to stay

Ferrari in 2014 looked lost. And things weren't looking up in any way. They didn't have a good handle on the engines. They started chopping the management from the top down. It very much looked like early 90s Ferrari all over again - a particularly messy period in their history. I hate when people claim that they knew Ferrari were going to come good again. Nobody knew. And still, it took 3 years for them to get to the level Alonso felt it was worth staying for


Yes at the time it was hardly a no brainer to stay. it was obvious Ferrari and Renault weren't about to catch Merc in the engine department so jumping on board with Mclaren Honda looked just about the only opportunity to compete for a championship if Merc themselves weren't going to hire you. People at the time even talked about what a massive advantage Honda would have being able to develop for a whole extra season and not be restricted by the ludicrous token system that was in place at the time.


Also it was when the split turbo was supposed to be the silver bullet and Honda had done it too. McHonda facilities were also a cut above Ferrari's at the time and they had a larger chassis budget.

Sergio changed all that in 2015 when he put Ferrari on par with Mercedes facilities,staff and budget wise. Mahle brought Ferrari TJI (Canada 2015) which saved them having to do all their own R&D on a lean burn combustion system. To put into perspective how much time that saved them, Renault introduced in Monaco 2016 and Honda Australia 2017 and they all found out at the same time. James Allison also killed the token system that was helping locking in Ferrari's previous poor design by finding a loophole.

All happened after he left and it completely turned Ferrari around.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:56 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
Due to Alonso's poor or badly timed team moves and his reluctance to stay with good teams despite his 2 WDCs I never think of Alonso as a particularly fantastic driver at all. Very much a case of 'so what?'.


How do badly timed moves affect how good he is at driving?

He might be a very good driver but choosing a team either in the doldrums or as other teams are improving hasn't done him credit. By now I would have expected him to hold 3, 4 or even 5 WDCs after his championships in 05 and 06.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
Due to Alonso's poor or badly timed team moves and his reluctance to stay with good teams despite his 2 WDCs I never think of Alonso as a particularly fantastic driver at all. Very much a case of 'so what?'.

McLaren 2007 is the only team that fits the "reluctance to stay with good teams" bit. And that was a team & driver mutual decision. Ron wasn't exactly begging him to stay

Ferrari in 2014 looked lost. And things weren't looking up in any way. They didn't have a good handle on the engines. They started chopping the management from the top down. It very much looked like early 90s Ferrari all over again - a particularly messy period in their history. I hate when people claim that they knew Ferrari were going to come good again. Nobody knew. And still, it took 3 years for them to get to the level Alonso felt it was worth staying for


Yes at the time it was hardly a no brainer to stay. it was obvious Ferrari and Renault weren't about to catch Merc in the engine department so jumping on board with Mclaren Honda looked just about the only opportunity to compete for a championship if Merc themselves weren't going to hire you. People at the time even talked about what a massive advantage Honda would have being able to develop for a whole extra season and not be restricted by the ludicrous token system that was in place at the time.


This line of reasoning does Alonso a disservice, if a driver of his calibre who has direct knowledge of what the team is doing and how the restructuring is going and could not see what they were doing even after James Allison begged him to stay according to some on here then it's not wrong to say he makes bad decisions.

Ferrari was not lost in '14 they had a problem with the size of turbo due to the aero teams request for packaging which was going to be corrected the following season due to the limitation of the token system.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:46 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
Due to Alonso's poor or badly timed team moves and his reluctance to stay with good teams despite his 2 WDCs I never think of Alonso as a particularly fantastic driver at all. Very much a case of 'so what?'.

McLaren 2007 is the only team that fits the "reluctance to stay with good teams" bit. And that was a team & driver mutual decision. Ron wasn't exactly begging him to stay

Ferrari in 2014 looked lost. And things weren't looking up in any way. They didn't have a good handle on the engines. They started chopping the management from the top down. It very much looked like early 90s Ferrari all over again - a particularly messy period in their history. I hate when people claim that they knew Ferrari were going to come good again. Nobody knew. And still, it took 3 years for them to get to the level Alonso felt it was worth staying for


Yes at the time it was hardly a no brainer to stay. it was obvious Ferrari and Renault weren't about to catch Merc in the engine department so jumping on board with Mclaren Honda looked just about the only opportunity to compete for a championship if Merc themselves weren't going to hire you. People at the time even talked about what a massive advantage Honda would have being able to develop for a whole extra season and not be restricted by the ludicrous token system that was in place at the time.


Also it was when the split turbo was supposed to be the silver bullet and Honda had done it too. McHonda facilities were also a cut above Ferrari's at the time and they had a larger chassis budget.

Sergio changed all that in 2015 when he put Ferrari on par with Mercedes facilities,staff and budget wise. Mahle brought Ferrari TJI (Canada 2015) which saved them having to do all their own R&D on a lean burn combustion system. To put into perspective how much time that saved them, Renault introduced in Monaco 2016 and Honda Australia 2017 and they all found out at the same time. James Allison also killed the token system that was helping locking in Ferrari's previous poor design by finding a loophole.

All happened after he left and it completely turned Ferrari around.


Most of the above is wrong.

Ferrari's facilities were upgraded by Luca and not Sergio, what Sergio did was to re arrange the team in '14 by getting rid of dead weight in the team.

Mahle added to it's collaboration with SF and worked on several engine components, see below.

https://www.mahle.com/en/news-and-press ... rari-36928


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:04 pm 
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To speak to the OP - Alonso's legacy is one of greatness and excellence behind the wheel but also one of controversy and turmoil off-track. I will always remember 2003, when he first emerged as a driver to watch. He had tremendous pace and showed poise that not many young drivers could match. His back-to-back titles in 2005-2006 were as impressive as you could ask for. He never had a dominant machine but he performed with such consistency and poise that he was able to maximize the car's potential and beat first Kimi and then Michael to titles without having an outright better car IMO.

2007 is where things first took a turn for Fernando although arguably 2004 was an omen regarding Alonso's behavior when faced with a tough teammate. Controversy when there are two top drivers is pretty common but I do think that Alonso hurt his reputation somewhat with how he conducted himself that year. While Alonso was voted driver of the year by many after 2008, hindsight tells us that there was foul play behind his best result that year in Singapore and that whole debacle also hurt his rep.

By far the brightest period of Alonso's career in terms of how his performance is regarded is the period of time where he drove for Ferrari. Although he never managed to win a title with them, 2012 and, to a lesser extent, 2013 are often considered his best overall seasons; putting up a fight for the title in a car that wasn't on par with the Red Bull. His performances in 2012 in particular stand out. He seemed to be at the peak of his powers that year and he came very close to pulling it off. That year and 2010 are two years where he was within a stone's throw of the title and 2007 was also very close despite the controversy.

Unfortunately, I think he needed to pull off at least one of those close titles bids in order to really put himself in the highest tier of historical greatness. No one can ever question his tenacity or his talent but I think that a guy who spends most of his career racing for top teams with massive budgets and walks away with only two titles while two of his contemporaries battle for their 5th will have a hard time justifying a place in the all-time top 5. Top 10 is a realm where I think he can make a serious case but I also think some of the intangibles go against Alonso. The fact that he has often had contentious relationships with the teams he works for is not something to be ignored. For the last few years, Alonso has wanted to join a top team but those teams have not reciprocated his interest. This isn't fans gossiping, this is teams speaking with their actions. It's clear hiring him is perceived as a double-edged sword by the teams in F1.

That said, his career could have probably gone a lot better under only slightly different circumstances. The only real tragic decision he made IMO was allowing the relationship with Ferrari to deteriorate to a point where he left the team. He should have stayed with them until his last race. On the face of it, it really seems that he was rather unlucky in terms of his timing in the latter half of his career. The spectacular failure of Mclaren these last few years basically snuffed out the lights on his career.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:54 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
Due to Alonso's poor or badly timed team moves and his reluctance to stay with good teams despite his 2 WDCs I never think of Alonso as a particularly fantastic driver at all. Very much a case of 'so what?'.

McLaren 2007 is the only team that fits the "reluctance to stay with good teams" bit. And that was a team & driver mutual decision. Ron wasn't exactly begging him to stay

Ferrari in 2014 looked lost. And things weren't looking up in any way. They didn't have a good handle on the engines. They started chopping the management from the top down. It very much looked like early 90s Ferrari all over again - a particularly messy period in their history. I hate when people claim that they knew Ferrari were going to come good again. Nobody knew. And still, it took 3 years for them to get to the level Alonso felt it was worth staying for


Yes at the time it was hardly a no brainer to stay. it was obvious Ferrari and Renault weren't about to catch Merc in the engine department so jumping on board with Mclaren Honda looked just about the only opportunity to compete for a championship if Merc themselves weren't going to hire you. People at the time even talked about what a massive advantage Honda would have being able to develop for a whole extra season and not be restricted by the ludicrous token system that was in place at the time.


Also it was when the split turbo was supposed to be the silver bullet and Honda had done it too. McHonda facilities were also a cut above Ferrari's at the time and they had a larger chassis budget.

Sergio changed all that in 2015 when he put Ferrari on par with Mercedes facilities,staff and budget wise. Mahle brought Ferrari TJI (Canada 2015) which saved them having to do all their own R&D on a lean burn combustion system. To put into perspective how much time that saved them, Renault introduced in Monaco 2016 and Honda Australia 2017 and they all found out at the same time. James Allison also killed the token system that was helping locking in Ferrari's previous poor design by finding a loophole.

All happened after he left and it completely turned Ferrari around.


Most of the above is wrong.

Ferrari's facilities were upgraded by Luca and not Sergio, what Sergio did was to re arrange the team in '14 by getting rid of dead weight in the team.

Mahle added to it's collaboration with SF and worked on several engine components, see below.

https://www.mahle.com/en/news-and-press ... rari-36928


No it isn't.

Gestione Sportiva complex was a Domenicalli idea and was under construction under Luca sure but it was Sergio who coughed up for the new full chassis dyno and sim from AVL which costs the best part of 30-40m alone and he further upgraded all their other engine dyno's and sim tools as well and all of which was put in motion after Luca was ousted. He increased the staff and budget to Mercedes level too post Luca.

No-one claimed Mahle didn't have a relationship with Ferrari before bringing them TJI but they only brought them TJI in 2015 is the point. This saved them valuable R&D time that Renault are still struggling to make up.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:15 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Zoue wrote:
j man wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah but in regard to the discussion it's Alonso's interpretation that counts, since that led to the actions he took which ultimately shaped the rest of his career. Whether he was right to feel that way is another story entirely.

I don't think I'd interpret breaking an agreement as standing your ground, nor would I call publicly throwing accusations at the team after Monaco (and swearing at RD etc) an example of standing your ground. If we're going to run a scale then Alonso absolutely came out tops in the petulant and idiotic behaviour department, but statements from pokerman trying to make out he was wholly innocent of anything are wide of the mark and frankly a whitewashing of what actually happened. I don't think anybody came out of 2007 looking good, tbh

Standing his ground was perhaps the wrong turn of phrase. I'm not portraying Hamilton as innocent in the whole affair, but in simplistic terms the way I see it is Alonso started it but then Hamilton escalated it because otherwise he ran the risk of playing second fiddle for the rest of their time as team mates. Just as has happened with Kimi Raikkonen at Ferrari.

Bit nervous about opening a whole other can of worms on this bit I'm a bit curious as to how Alonso started it. IIRC it started with Hamilton kicking off about team orders at Monaco and then Alonso getting all upset that Ron (in his eyes) didn't defend Alonso strongly enough to the UK Press. The "feud," for want of a better word, started there



:nod:

I am curious too.

In following this thread, do people really doubt that Don likely told Alonso that he would be #1 at McLaren in order to get the 2x reigning WDC to come to the team? Especially as one reads all the "Alonso insists on #1 status" post here in the forum, surely he would have required as much from Dennis?


I think at the very least Ron was careful with his words (if he didn't lie to them outright) ...saying something to the effect of "Fernando you will have a rookie teammate so you will be the logical number one." "Lewis you will have every opportunity to race your teammate and if you prove to be as fast or faster, you won't be hindered with team orders."

I don't think Ron or anyone expected young Hamilton to be as fast as he was out of the gate and that created the problem.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:25 pm 
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Donington93 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Zoue wrote:
j man wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah but in regard to the discussion it's Alonso's interpretation that counts, since that led to the actions he took which ultimately shaped the rest of his career. Whether he was right to feel that way is another story entirely.

I don't think I'd interpret breaking an agreement as standing your ground, nor would I call publicly throwing accusations at the team after Monaco (and swearing at RD etc) an example of standing your ground. If we're going to run a scale then Alonso absolutely came out tops in the petulant and idiotic behaviour department, but statements from pokerman trying to make out he was wholly innocent of anything are wide of the mark and frankly a whitewashing of what actually happened. I don't think anybody came out of 2007 looking good, tbh

Standing his ground was perhaps the wrong turn of phrase. I'm not portraying Hamilton as innocent in the whole affair, but in simplistic terms the way I see it is Alonso started it but then Hamilton escalated it because otherwise he ran the risk of playing second fiddle for the rest of their time as team mates. Just as has happened with Kimi Raikkonen at Ferrari.

Bit nervous about opening a whole other can of worms on this bit I'm a bit curious as to how Alonso started it. IIRC it started with Hamilton kicking off about team orders at Monaco and then Alonso getting all upset that Ron (in his eyes) didn't defend Alonso strongly enough to the UK Press. The "feud," for want of a better word, started there



:nod:

I am curious too.

In following this thread, do people really doubt that Don likely told Alonso that he would be #1 at McLaren in order to get the 2x reigning WDC to come to the team? Especially as one reads all the "Alonso insists on #1 status" post here in the forum, surely he would have required as much from Dennis?


I think at the very least Ron was careful with his words (if he didn't lie to them outright) ...saying something to the effect of "Fernando you will have a rookie teammate so you will be the logical number one." "Lewis you will have every opportunity to race your teammate and if you prove to be as fast or faster, you won't be hindered with team orders."

I don't think Ron or anyone expected young Hamilton to be as fast as he was out of the gate and that created the problem.

yeah to a certain extent it doesn't really matter what Ron actually said. What matters is what Alonso perceived. I agree that Hamilton's competitiveness was completely unexpected and that seriously rattled Alonso who couldn't come to terms with being challenged by a rookie.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:59 pm 
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j man wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Alonso’s 2010 is severely overrated. Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica and Rosberg all drove better and more consistent seasons than he did. I’m more than happy to debate anyone who disagrees.

With that being said, I’m still very sad to see such a terrific driver leave the sport. In his prime, his racecraft was unreal.


You must be joking.

Vettel drove not worse, but MUCH WORSE than Fernando that year. It wasn't even a contest. Vettel crashed several times, one of them against his teammate! Only the great car advantage for Red Bull, and inordinate amounts of good luck made Vettel, the crash kid, a champ. Get over it.

Actually both driver had three costly accidents that I can recall. Alonso in Australia, Monaco and Spa. Vettel in Turkey, Silverstone and Spa. Alonso also cost himself a heap of points with the silly chicane-cutting episode in Silverstone. He was fantastic in the latter part of the year, but overall 2010 was not a good season for Alonso by his high standards.

EDIT: Also if we want to talk about luck, Vettel lost many more points through unreliability than anyone else that year. Wins in Bahrain, Australia and Korea were his until his car failed.


Alonso's mistakes were clearly of a lesser entity. Can't seriously compare T-boning your teammate in one race and another competition in another, cutting a car you are passing with a 2-sec pace advantage, with a touch against the barriers in Monaco while trying to make up for a lack of pace... When a car is over half a second slower you'll need to take more risks is you want to me in the fight. Mainly because you don't know how many times the other car is going to break down or make a fool of himself crashing left right and center... (-:

Sorry but no...


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:46 pm 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
Alonso's mistakes were clearly of a lesser entity. Can't seriously compare T-boning your teammate in one race and another competition in another, cutting a car you are passing with a 2-sec pace advantage, with a touch against the barriers in Monaco while trying to make up for a lack of pace... When a car is over half a second slower you'll need to take more risks is you want to me in the fight. Mainly because you don't know how many times the other car is going to break down or make a fool of himself crashing left right and center... (-:

Alonso didn’t touch the wall in Monaco, he crashed into it and destroyed his car for qualifying. He certainly wasn’t lacking pace that weekend. Alonso had the pace to win around Monaco or at minimum get on the podium. Alonso also jumped the start in China and got a drive through.

Alonso didn’t have to fight his teammate either. Alonso was let through by Massa in Germany. Imagine how much easier Vettel’s season would have been if he was let through by Webber in Turkey.

Speaking of Turkey, Vettel was 4 tenths up on Webber’s pole time in sector 2 before the anti-roll bar failed on his car. Without that mechanical issue he would have started the race on pole, and that accident would never have happened. He would have won the race easily from there.

Alonso was the 5th best driver of 2010. Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica and Rosberg all drove better than him.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:51 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
Alonso's mistakes were clearly of a lesser entity. Can't seriously compare T-boning your teammate in one race and another competition in another, cutting a car you are passing with a 2-sec pace advantage, with a touch against the barriers in Monaco while trying to make up for a lack of pace... When a car is over half a second slower you'll need to take more risks is you want to me in the fight. Mainly because you don't know how many times the other car is going to break down or make a fool of himself crashing left right and center... (-:

Alonso didn’t touch the wall in Monaco, he crashed into it and destroyed his car for qualifying. He certainly wasn’t lacking pace that weekend. Alonso had the pace to win around Monaco or at minimum get on the podium. Alonso also jumped the start in China and got a drive through.

Alonso didn’t have to fight his teammate either. Alonso was let through by Massa in Germany. Imagine how much easier Vettel’s season would have been if he was let through by Webber in Turkey.

Speaking of Turkey, Vettel was 4 tenths up on Webber’s pole time in sector 2 before the anti-roll bar failed on his car. Without that mechanical issue he would have started the race on pole, and that accident would never have happened. He would have won the race easily from there.

Alonso was the 5th best driver of 2010. Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica and Rosberg all drove better than him.


Are you mad? Vettel crashed three times, all of his own making, in races. Alonso crashed only once, in practice, but with the unfortunate result that the damage was uncommonly hard to fix before the race. Putting Vettel ahead of him as a better driver that year is a joke, or it means you have no clue, or that you are consciously trolling.

Regarding teammates. I didn't see Massa letting Alonso through in Australia. And the Germany GP has been done to death by those trying to pain Alonso as the devil incarnate, but the fact is that by that time Felipe was out of the running and Ferrari were fighting a much faster car. Anyone with a problem with that needs to have their mind fixed. Team orders were only a problem in a period after the pathetic Schumacher-Rubens incident in Austria 2002, and it lasted until everyone saw how stupid the rule was precisely for the unfair criticism Fernando and Ferrari received. Crybaby Massa covered himself in glory with that one. Unable to beat his teammate and he almost cost them a shot at the WDC. Those points would in fact have been crucial.

Also, please recall that Vettel clearly had #1 status in RBR. Webber was a contender against his very team. He complained about having to give his front wings to Vettel, he was publicly shamed for the Turkey crash by his own team, even though everyone and their mother saw Vettel at fault...

Please... be serious. Otherwise the conversation is very, very difficult.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:29 am 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
Alonso's mistakes were clearly of a lesser entity. Can't seriously compare T-boning your teammate in one race and another competition in another, cutting a car you are passing with a 2-sec pace advantage, with a touch against the barriers in Monaco while trying to make up for a lack of pace... When a car is over half a second slower you'll need to take more risks is you want to me in the fight. Mainly because you don't know how many times the other car is going to break down or make a fool of himself crashing left right and center... (-:

Alonso didn’t touch the wall in Monaco, he crashed into it and destroyed his car for qualifying. He certainly wasn’t lacking pace that weekend. Alonso had the pace to win around Monaco or at minimum get on the podium. Alonso also jumped the start in China and got a drive through.

Alonso didn’t have to fight his teammate either. Alonso was let through by Massa in Germany. Imagine how much easier Vettel’s season would have been if he was let through by Webber in Turkey.

Speaking of Turkey, Vettel was 4 tenths up on Webber’s pole time in sector 2 before the anti-roll bar failed on his car. Without that mechanical issue he would have started the race on pole, and that accident would never have happened. He would have won the race easily from there.

Alonso was the 5th best driver of 2010. Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica and Rosberg all drove better than him.


Are you mad? Vettel crashed three times, all of his own making, in races. Alonso crashed only once, in practice, but with the unfortunate result that the damage was uncommonly hard to fix before the race. Putting Vettel ahead of him as a better driver that year is a joke, or it means you have no clue, or that you are consciously trolling.

Regarding teammates. I didn't see Massa letting Alonso through in Australia. And the Germany GP has been done to death by those trying to pain Alonso as the devil incarnate, but the fact is that by that time Felipe was out of the running and Ferrari were fighting a much faster car. Anyone with a problem with that needs to have their mind fixed. Team orders were only a problem in a period after the pathetic Schumacher-Rubens incident in Austria 2002, and it lasted until everyone saw how stupid the rule was precisely for the unfair criticism Fernando and Ferrari received. Crybaby Massa covered himself in glory with that one. Unable to beat his teammate and he almost cost them a shot at the WDC. Those points would in fact have been crucial.

Also, please recall that Vettel clearly had #1 status in RBR. Webber was a contender against his very team. He complained about having to give his front wings to Vettel, he was publicly shamed for the Turkey crash by his own team, even though everyone and their mother saw Vettel at fault...

Please... be serious. Otherwise the conversation is very, very difficult.

Not true


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:38 am 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
Are you mad? Vettel crashed three times, all of his own making, in races. Alonso crashed only once, in practice, but with the unfortunate result that the damage was uncommonly hard to fix before the race. Putting Vettel ahead of him as a better driver that year is a joke, or it means you have no clue, or that you are consciously trolling.

Vettel only crashed twice, Turkey and Belgium. When did the third time happen? Anyway I am dead serious about Vettel being better than Alonso in 2010. Alonso would have finished anywhere from 77 to 104 points behind Vettel if Vettel's car was as reliable as Alonso's car. If Vettel's car was reliable, he would have won 2010 as easily as he won 2011. No one else would even have had a sniff at the WDC. Unreliability cost Vettel far more points than his mistakes did.

As for Alonso only crashing once: Alonso crashed in Monaco and Belgium, span in Australia, and made a mistake in China and Britain.

Quote:
Also, please recall that Vettel clearly had #1 status in RBR. Webber was a contender against his very team. He complained about having to give his front wings to Vettel, he was publicly shamed for the Turkey crash by his own team, even though everyone and their mother saw Vettel at fault...

Turkey is a perfect example of why Vettel didn't enjoy #1 status like Alonso did. Vettel had to fight Webber for the lead and a crash resulted. Massa let Alonso through in Germany without a fight. This clearly made Alonso's life much easier than Vettel's. As did reliability, which favored Alonso massively.

The front wing saga in Silverstone has also been debated to death. Webber didn't like the new front wing until they put the spare one on Vettel's car.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:32 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
If Vettel's car was reliable, he would have won 2010 as easily as he won 2011. No one else would even have had a sniff at the WDC. Unreliability cost Vettel far more points than his mistakes did.
KingVoid wrote:
Turkey is a perfect example of why Vettel didn't enjoy #1 status like Alonso did. Vettel had to fight Webber for the lead and a crash resulted. Massa let Alonso through in Germany without a fight. This clearly made Alonso's life much easier than Vettel's. As did reliability, which favored Alonso massively.

These are both true points as far as they go, but it seems like you're arguing from the position that the Ferrari and Red Bull were equal in 2010. I can't agree with that, which is why I don't consider that Vettel should have won the championship easily as proof that he drove a better season than Alonso. Yes, he lost more points to reliability, but that's in large part because he had the quicker (albeit less reliable) car.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:53 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
Are you mad? Vettel crashed three times, all of his own making, in races. Alonso crashed only once, in practice, but with the unfortunate result that the damage was uncommonly hard to fix before the race. Putting Vettel ahead of him as a better driver that year is a joke, or it means you have no clue, or that you are consciously trolling.

Vettel only crashed twice, Turkey and Belgium. When did the third time happen? Anyway I am dead serious about Vettel being better than Alonso in 2010. Alonso would have finished anywhere from 77 to 104 points behind Vettel if Vettel's car was as reliable as Alonso's car. If Vettel's car was reliable, he would have won 2010 as easily as he won 2011. No one else would even have had a sniff at the WDC. Unreliability cost Vettel far more points than his mistakes did.

As for Alonso only crashing once: Alonso crashed in Monaco and Belgium, span in Australia, and made a mistake in China and Britain.

Quote:
Also, please recall that Vettel clearly had #1 status in RBR. Webber was a contender against his very team. He complained about having to give his front wings to Vettel, he was publicly shamed for the Turkey crash by his own team, even though everyone and their mother saw Vettel at fault...

Turkey is a perfect example of why Vettel didn't enjoy #1 status like Alonso did. Vettel had to fight Webber for the lead and a crash resulted. Massa let Alonso through in Germany without a fight. This clearly made Alonso's life much easier than Vettel's. As did reliability, which favored Alonso massively.

The front wing saga in Silverstone has also been debated to death. Webber didn't like the new front wing until they put the spare one on Vettel's car.


Vettel also made a mistake in Hungary.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:02 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Vettel also made a mistake in Hungary.

True.

But people often defend Alonso's mistake at Silverstone, saying the penalty was very harsh and it was a big consequence for a small mistake. One can use the exact same logic to defend Vettel's mistake at Hungary. Vettel's penalty at Hungary was very harsh for something he didn't even gain any advantage from.

Overall, my driver ratings of 2010 were:

1. Hamilton
2. Kubica
3. Rosberg
4. Vettel
5. Alonso


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:06 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Vettel also made a mistake in Hungary.

True.

But people often defend Alonso's mistake at Silverstone, saying the penalty was very harsh and it was a big consequence for a small mistake. One can use the exact same logic to defend Vettel's mistake at Hungary.

Overall, my driver ratings of 2010 were:

1. Hamilton
2. Kubica
3. Rosberg
4. Vettel
5. Alonso


Not really. Alonso's mistake usually is resolved by letting the car behind back through so minimal time lost. Vettel's mistake would, at that time, always have yielded the same penalty.

My one to five -

1. Kubica
2. Hamilton
3. Alonso
4. Vettel
5. Rosberg

You have to remember Vettel was in a faster car as well. It's easier to look good in a quick car. I think the 2010 Red Bull had as much of a pace advantage as the 2011 car (I never felt Vettel got anywhere near enough credit for 2011). Without his bad luck and/or a couple of crashes nobody else would've stood a chance in 2010.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:51 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
But people often defend Alonso's mistake at Silverstone, saying the penalty was very harsh and it was a big consequence for a small mistake.

Really? That was the worst mistake he made all year. In fact, I wouldn't even classify it as a "mistake" because he blatantly broke the rules and didn't do the obvious thing to correct his transgression (give the place back). That was a frustrating one to watch

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:28 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
But people often defend Alonso's mistake at Silverstone, saying the penalty was very harsh and it was a big consequence for a small mistake.

Really? That was the worst mistake he made all year. In fact, I wouldn't even classify it as a "mistake" because he blatantly broke the rules and didn't do the obvious thing to correct his transgression (give the place back). That was a frustrating one to watch


Did he have much chance? Didn't Kubica retire almost straight after?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:23 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
But people often defend Alonso's mistake at Silverstone, saying the penalty was very harsh and it was a big consequence for a small mistake.

Really? That was the worst mistake he made all year. In fact, I wouldn't even classify it as a "mistake" because he blatantly broke the rules and didn't do the obvious thing to correct his transgression (give the place back). That was a frustrating one to watch


Did he have much chance? Didn't Kubica retire almost straight after?

I know yeah. But the original "overtake" was one of the few times I'd label what Alonso did as "idiotic". It was ludicrous to not give the place back immediately. And he paid heavily for not doing so

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:51 pm 
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I can’t believe Alonso turned down Red Bull for next season. That is so frustrating to hear, Verstappen vs Alonso would have been the most mouth watering pairing in over a decade. If only..


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:59 pm 
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He's probably gone and done it again and turned down a future grand prix winner as I like Honda's upward trajectory. Oh well he's nothing but consistent ;).

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:04 pm 
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mas wrote:
He's probably gone and done it again and turned down a future grand prix winner as I like Honda's upward trajectory. Oh well he's nothing but consistent ;).

Good omen for Honda then :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:28 pm 
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I think he wanted Bottas/Kimi seats but for his long term motorsport legacy I think Indy will be better, just imagine if he has as much effect as Mansell and the cars there are more equal so he will have more fun. Definitely will go back to watching every Indy race again now if he's there.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:01 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
I can’t believe Alonso turned down Red Bull for next season. That is so frustrating to hear, Verstappen vs Alonso would have been the most mouth watering pairing in over a decade. If only..

Take that story with more than a pinch of salt. None of it adds up

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:44 am 
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Johnson wrote:
I can’t believe Alonso turned down Red Bull for next season. That is so frustrating to hear, Verstappen vs Alonso would have been the most mouth watering pairing in over a decade. If only..


If true I am surprised he was offered but not surprised he turned it down. Like MS, Alonso wants number1 status and he would not want to get beat by MV and then retire. If he comes back to F1 which I think he won't. I am not sure he will given number1 status. If Norris is suppose to be next Hamilton? It will be interesting to see if that happens.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:40 am 
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So Alonso said in an interview to Sky that he had offers from Red Bull in 2007, 2009, 2011, 2013 and twice this year.

I'm struggling to believe he would turn them down in say 2011 tbh so I have a hard time believing him. If true I also find it hard to be sorry for his poor career decisions, it's one thing to turn them down in 2007, that's just unlucky since no-one could have known at that point what would happen, but in 2009/2011 he only has himself to blame if he really did turn them down.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:43 am 
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Alonso rejected Red Bulls offer in both 2011 and 2013?

So Alonso was afraid of Vettel? Why else would he turn down a seat in the best car? ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:50 pm 
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According to the BBC, Alonso has asked for "Red Bull to apologise after they denied his claim they offered him a drive for 2019."

Red Bull? Spanish Bull? Load of bull..?

Edited for spelling

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
So Alonso said in an interview to Sky that he had offers from Red Bull in 2007, 2009, 2011, 2013 and twice this year.

I'm struggling to believe he would turn them down in say 2011 tbh so I have a hard time believing him. If true I also find it hard to be sorry for his poor career decisions, it's one thing to turn them down in 2007, that's just unlucky since no-one could have known at that point what would happen, but in 2009/2011 he only has himself to blame if he really did turn them down.


I think Alonso's playing fast and loose with the term offers tbh. He's clearly had talks with them in most of those years, Red Bull acknowledge most of them too, but that's a very long way from offers on the table and in what direction the talks started from.

I know Red Bull approached him in 2007/8 and he approached them in 2009 halfway through but he's lumped them both together there so that's why I think that's what he's doing.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:40 pm 
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He was a great driver but relied a little too much on politics. I was watching the Abu Dhabi race a few days ago where he was stuck behind Patrov for the entire race. I think Vettel or Hamilton in that situation would have gotten the job done rather than wait for a mistake from Petrov.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:04 pm 
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Quark wrote:
He was a great driver but relied a little too much on politics. I was watching the Abu Dhabi race a few days ago where he was stuck behind Patrov for the entire race. I think Vettel or Hamilton in that situation would have gotten the job done rather than wait for a mistake from Petrov.


Really? Then why did Lewis get stuck behind the other Renault then?

Bridgestones+No DRS+Rev līmited V8's+Old and down on power engine+No mistakes from the Renault= No overtake.

Passing Petrov doesn't even win him the title, risking it all on a pass that's not there is a way to lose the title in that situation, not win it. Anything can happen as long as he's still in the race so staying in the race is the best choice. Like most things for Alonso the chips didn't fall his way and nowt happened.

Problem was being back there in the first place.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:30 pm 
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Ultimately, I think his legacy will falter in the wake of those with more titles that were similarly situated in terms of being mentioned with the 'all time greats' in the sport - which only grafts a tiny few into it's fold that are not 3+ champions. Of course when speaking about said greats, you will have to speak of him as a major contender- i.e., when discussing Hamilton and Vettel's legacies.

Nonetheless, what I feel is most important is making your mark in the sport so that you can be included in the stories, legends and tales of the future and I think that he's more than done that in his own right. Alonso stands out for his excellent driving ability and his on/off track antics, which I believe makes the best combination for documentaries.

Based on all of that, I don't think he'll ever be forgotten and his present status as "toxic" to teams will take on a kind of 'cool' characteristic in the way that seems to happen with F1 drivers.

mas wrote:
I think he wanted Bottas/Kimi seats but for his long term motorsport legacy I think Indy will be better, just imagine if he has as much effect as Mansell and the cars there are more equal so he will have more fun. Definitely will go back to watching every Indy race again now if he's there.


I had the same impression. That he foresaw Kimi leaving and Mercedes looking to replace Bottas. But Kimi and Bottas are both excellent drivers and Alonso isn't getting any younger. Also, I don't think Vettel or Hamilton would agree to be in the same team with Alonso and his off track politics that can sometimes carry onto the track. So I don't think that was ever going to happen. In my opinion, continuing his legacy as a driver would be best achieved through Indy. I do think he has the triple crown in him and I would start watching Indy regularly if he joined up. The triple crown would only enhance his F1 legacy.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:11 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
j man wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
It's not Alonso's word though to be fair it's Whitmarsh who said Ron later admitted to him he promised No.1 status to Alonso.

I was not aware of that but if true then I am more inclined to believe it. However we still don't know what exactly this promised "number 1 status" entailed because there are many varying degrees to which a driver can be favoured. McLaren under Ron Dennis were not averse to playing favourites with drivers but never to the extent of what Alonso had at Renault. So again, was it just Alonso having unrealistic expectations of what was being promised to him given his own past experience of what "number 1 status" means?


I don't think there's much scope for confusion tbh, everyone knows what a number 1 driver gets, it wasn't a dirty word back then it was just the way things were done most of the time in F1 throughout its history because it helps you win in a non spec series. It's hard enough to race faster cars never mind having to deal with a team mate in an equal one. It just means giving your focus and support to the lead car, so upgrades,strategy etc. We had that dumb fuel burn era quali so they needed some of those things, today it's really just upgrades and strategy, engines are all equal for the most part.

It only became a dirty word after Scumacher/Ferrari for whatever reason but we're heading back to those days right now, all top drivers will be in their own teams with a comfortable gap to the number 2 next year, it would've been five if Alonso stayed, but they're just not going to advertise it like that anymore because of the reaction to it in the 00's but there's no difference, it's creating comfortable conditions for your best driver to be successful on track and limit internal issues within the team.

Lewis was just quicker than expected and Alonso didn't carry his advantage on Michelin's over to the Bridgestones for whatever reason so it blew up after Alonso couldn't put him away when he did have the priority support in the opening rounds.

The Whitmarsh bit was in here, it says priority status rather than number 1 status though but it's the same thing really. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/30291496

Quote:
On the day of the row in Hungary, McLaren's then managing director Martin Whitmarsh tried to persuade Dennis to sack Alonso immediately - before that weekend's race.

Yet, some years later, Whitmarsh admitted he did not at that point have all the relevant information and when he did, he was more understanding - if not forgiving - of Alonso's actions.

The issue at the heart of the problems within McLaren all that year was Alonso's demand for the team to focus their title challenge on him, rather than split their efforts by giving team-mate Lewis Hamilton equal status.

That was true to McLaren's long-stated ethos. But Whitmarsh later discovered that when Dennis signed Alonso he had indeed promised him priority status, only to go back on his word.


So much for me not discussing 2007 until the book comes out, that lasted all of a day... :blush: :lol:

Well that dates back to 2014 and it's things that I've already said so it's not news for me as such.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:19 am 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
Due to Alonso's poor or badly timed team moves and his reluctance to stay with good teams despite his 2 WDCs I never think of Alonso as a particularly fantastic driver at all. Very much a case of 'so what?'.

McLaren 2007 is the only team that fits the "reluctance to stay with good teams" bit. And that was a team & driver mutual decision. Ron wasn't exactly begging him to stay

Ferrari in 2014 looked lost. And things weren't looking up in any way. They didn't have a good handle on the engines. They started chopping the management from the top down. It very much looked like early 90s Ferrari all over again - a particularly messy period in their history. I hate when people claim that they knew Ferrari were going to come good again. Nobody knew. And still, it took 3 years for them to get to the level Alonso felt it was worth staying for


Yes at the time it was hardly a no brainer to stay. it was obvious Ferrari and Renault weren't about to catch Merc in the engine department so jumping on board with Mclaren Honda looked just about the only opportunity to compete for a championship if Merc themselves weren't going to hire you. People at the time even talked about what a massive advantage Honda would have being able to develop for a whole extra season and not be restricted by the ludicrous token system that was in place at the time.


This line of reasoning does Alonso a disservice, if a driver of his calibre who has direct knowledge of what the team is doing and how the restructuring is going and could not see what they were doing even after James Allison begged him to stay according to some on here then it's not wrong to say he makes bad decisions.

Ferrari was not lost in '14 they had a problem with the size of turbo due to the aero teams request for packaging which was going to be corrected the following season due to the limitation of the token system.

Indeed and what Alonso couldn't see didn't put Vettel off joining Ferrari, did Vettel see something that Alonso didn't?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:26 am 
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Johnson wrote:
I can’t believe Alonso turned down Red Bull for next season. That is so frustrating to hear, Verstappen vs Alonso would have been the most mouth watering pairing in over a decade. If only..

It's so hard to believe that it probably didn't even happen. :)

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