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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:27 am 
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mas wrote:
I think he wanted Bottas/Kimi seats but for his long term motorsport legacy I think Indy will be better, just imagine if he has as much effect as Mansell and the cars there are more equal so he will have more fun. Definitely will go back to watching every Indy race again now if he's there.

I will be watching them too but also hoping he doesn't get hurt.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
j man wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
It's not Alonso's word though to be fair it's Whitmarsh who said Ron later admitted to him he promised No.1 status to Alonso.

I was not aware of that but if true then I am more inclined to believe it. However we still don't know what exactly this promised "number 1 status" entailed because there are many varying degrees to which a driver can be favoured. McLaren under Ron Dennis were not averse to playing favourites with drivers but never to the extent of what Alonso had at Renault. So again, was it just Alonso having unrealistic expectations of what was being promised to him given his own past experience of what "number 1 status" means?


I don't think there's much scope for confusion tbh, everyone knows what a number 1 driver gets, it wasn't a dirty word back then it was just the way things were done most of the time in F1 throughout its history because it helps you win in a non spec series. It's hard enough to race faster cars never mind having to deal with a team mate in an equal one. It just means giving your focus and support to the lead car, so upgrades,strategy etc. We had that dumb fuel burn era quali so they needed some of those things, today it's really just upgrades and strategy, engines are all equal for the most part.

It only became a dirty word after Scumacher/Ferrari for whatever reason but we're heading back to those days right now, all top drivers will be in their own teams with a comfortable gap to the number 2 next year, it would've been five if Alonso stayed, but they're just not going to advertise it like that anymore because of the reaction to it in the 00's but there's no difference, it's creating comfortable conditions for your best driver to be successful on track and limit internal issues within the team.

Lewis was just quicker than expected and Alonso didn't carry his advantage on Michelin's over to the Bridgestones for whatever reason so it blew up after Alonso couldn't put him away when he did have the priority support in the opening rounds.

The Whitmarsh bit was in here, it says priority status rather than number 1 status though but it's the same thing really. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/30291496

Quote:
On the day of the row in Hungary, McLaren's then managing director Martin Whitmarsh tried to persuade Dennis to sack Alonso immediately - before that weekend's race.

Yet, some years later, Whitmarsh admitted he did not at that point have all the relevant information and when he did, he was more understanding - if not forgiving - of Alonso's actions.

The issue at the heart of the problems within McLaren all that year was Alonso's demand for the team to focus their title challenge on him, rather than split their efforts by giving team-mate Lewis Hamilton equal status.

That was true to McLaren's long-stated ethos. But Whitmarsh later discovered that when Dennis signed Alonso he had indeed promised him priority status, only to go back on his word.


So much for me not discussing 2007 until the book comes out, that lasted all of a day... :blush: :lol:

Well that dates back to 2014 and it's things that I've already said so it's not news for me as such.


Great.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:14 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
Due to Alonso's poor or badly timed team moves and his reluctance to stay with good teams despite his 2 WDCs I never think of Alonso as a particularly fantastic driver at all. Very much a case of 'so what?'.

McLaren 2007 is the only team that fits the "reluctance to stay with good teams" bit. And that was a team & driver mutual decision. Ron wasn't exactly begging him to stay

Ferrari in 2014 looked lost. And things weren't looking up in any way. They didn't have a good handle on the engines. They started chopping the management from the top down. It very much looked like early 90s Ferrari all over again - a particularly messy period in their history. I hate when people claim that they knew Ferrari were going to come good again. Nobody knew. And still, it took 3 years for them to get to the level Alonso felt it was worth staying for


Yes at the time it was hardly a no brainer to stay. it was obvious Ferrari and Renault weren't about to catch Merc in the engine department so jumping on board with Mclaren Honda looked just about the only opportunity to compete for a championship if Merc themselves weren't going to hire you. People at the time even talked about what a massive advantage Honda would have being able to develop for a whole extra season and not be restricted by the ludicrous token system that was in place at the time.


This line of reasoning does Alonso a disservice, if a driver of his calibre who has direct knowledge of what the team is doing and how the restructuring is going and could not see what they were doing even after James Allison begged him to stay according to some on here then it's not wrong to say he makes bad decisions.

Ferrari was not lost in '14 they had a problem with the size of turbo due to the aero teams request for packaging which was going to be corrected the following season due to the limitation of the token system.

Indeed and what Alonso couldn't see didn't put Vettel off joining Ferrari, did Vettel see something that Alonso didn't?


Yeah, Kimi and an engine manufacturer backing. No brainer for Seb to move from Dan and a customer Red Bull. Alonso had 5 years of broken promises already and correctly deduced they couldn't win for the duration of his contract so McHonda offered at least 2 possibilities that Ferrari couldn't.

Both decisions looked good in late 2014 because they were both in different situations. Seb's looked more long term with Ferrari in a rebuilding phase and he had 4 titles in a row and was in his mid 20's so was perfect patience wise and Honda had a split turbo and a year on the sidelines which in hindsight was waay overblown in terms of an advantage for them.

Then they hit the track in AD and couldn't do a lap and Ferrari caught a couple breaks like Allison finding the loophole that allowed in season development and Mahle brought them TJI and it turned it on it's head.

All of which has nothing to do with either driver.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:

This line of reasoning does Alonso a disservice, if a driver of his calibre who has direct knowledge of what the team is doing and how the restructuring is going and could not see what they were doing even after James Allison begged him to stay according to some on here then it's not wrong to say he makes bad decisions.

Ferrari was not lost in '14 they had a problem with the size of turbo due to the aero teams request for packaging which was going to be corrected the following season due to the limitation of the token system.

Indeed and what Alonso couldn't see didn't put Vettel off joining Ferrari, did Vettel see something that Alonso didn't?


Yeah, Kimi and an engine manufacturer backing. No brainer for Seb to move from Dan and a customer Red Bull. Alonso had 5 years of broken promises already and correctly deduced they couldn't win for the duration of his contract so McHonda offered at least 2 possibilities that Ferrari couldn't.

Both decisions looked good in late 2014 because they were both in different situations. Seb's looked more long term with Ferrari in a rebuilding phase and he had 4 titles in a row and was in his mid 20's so was perfect patience wise and Honda had a split turbo and a year on the sidelines which in hindsight was waay overblown in terms of an advantage for them.

Then they hit the track in AD and couldn't do a lap and Ferrari caught a couple breaks like Allison finding the loophole that allowed in season development and Mahle brought them TJI and it turned it on it's head.

All of which has nothing to do with either driver.


Both decisions were not same, Alonso leaving Ferrari at the end of '14 was not on he felt he was bigger than the team, as the Mahle and Allison stuff wasn't found at the end or beginning of '15, Ferrari were already rebuilding the engine for '15 through '14.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:24 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:

This line of reasoning does Alonso a disservice, if a driver of his calibre who has direct knowledge of what the team is doing and how the restructuring is going and could not see what they were doing even after James Allison begged him to stay according to some on here then it's not wrong to say he makes bad decisions.

Ferrari was not lost in '14 they had a problem with the size of turbo due to the aero teams request for packaging which was going to be corrected the following season due to the limitation of the token system.

Indeed and what Alonso couldn't see didn't put Vettel off joining Ferrari, did Vettel see something that Alonso didn't?


Yeah, Kimi and an engine manufacturer backing. No brainer for Seb to move from Dan and a customer Red Bull. Alonso had 5 years of broken promises already and correctly deduced they couldn't win for the duration of his contract so McHonda offered at least 2 possibilities that Ferrari couldn't.

Both decisions looked good in late 2014 because they were both in different situations. Seb's looked more long term with Ferrari in a rebuilding phase and he had 4 titles in a row and was in his mid 20's so was perfect patience wise and Honda had a split turbo and a year on the sidelines which in hindsight was waay overblown in terms of an advantage for them.

Then they hit the track in AD and couldn't do a lap and Ferrari caught a couple breaks like Allison finding the loophole that allowed in season development and Mahle brought them TJI and it turned it on it's head.

All of which has nothing to do with either driver.


Both decisions were not same, Alonso leaving Ferrari at the end of '14 was not on he felt he was bigger than the team, as the Mahle and Allison stuff wasn't found at the end or beginning of '15, Ferrari were already rebuilding the engine for '15 through '14.


No-one said they were the same. I can't really make out what you're saying after that but Allison found it and brought it to the strategy group in December 2014 and Mahle brought TJI in 2015. The rebuilding tokens spent during 2014 design phase totalled 22 and were brought over the winter. The combustion systems change (TJI) cost 3 tokens and were brought in Canada (June) 2015. You can change the entire top half of an engine with that.

If Mahle had brought it any earlier than the start of 2015 it would've been part of the 22 token spend or brought earlier than June 2015. (Iirc Mahle themselves said March/April 2015 but I'd have to go double check that one)

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:03 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Bridgestones+No DRS+Rev līmited V8's+Old and down on power engine+No mistakes from the Renault= No overtake.


I'm pretty sure I've seen Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen make overtaking moves from further back than this:

https://streamable.com/gw8sk

Ferrari were mainly to blame for their strategy, but Alonso could have been more aggressive. The WDC was on the line.

If Vettel lost a WDC because he could not overtake Petrov, people would murder him for it for the rest of his career. Such race would forever be referenced as evidence that Vettel "can't overtake" and "sucks under pressure".


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:19 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Bridgestones+No DRS+Rev līmited V8's+Old and down on power engine+No mistakes from the Renault= No overtake.


I'm pretty sure I've seen Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen make overtaking moves from further back than this:

https://streamable.com/gw8sk

Ferrari were mainly to blame for their strategy, but Alonso could have been more aggressive. The WDC was on the line.

If Vettel lost a WDC because he could not overtake Petrov, people would murder him for it for the rest of his career. Such race would forever be referenced as evidence that Vettel "can't overtake" and "sucks under pressure".

Back then sure but we have now seen enough great and bold moves from Vettel that we know that isn't the case, so if he got stuck behind say Bottas later this year I highly doubt anyone would say that (at least anyone not completely consumed in bias against him, and the rest of us know to disregard their opinions). He used to get cririsism when he was out front all the time but that's just because he never had to overtake anyone.

In the same way nobody would say that about Alonso, he's already proven himself to have great racecraft and has pulled off audacious moves before so we know if he couldn't get past Petrov then most likely no-one could.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:26 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Bridgestones+No DRS+Rev līmited V8's+Old and down on power engine+No mistakes from the Renault= No overtake.


I'm pretty sure I've seen Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen make overtaking moves from further back than this:

https://streamable.com/gw8sk

Ferrari were mainly to blame for their strategy, but Alonso could have been more aggressive. The WDC was on the line.

If Vettel lost a WDC because he could not overtake Petrov, people would murder him for it for the rest of his career. Such race would forever be referenced as evidence that Vettel "can't overtake" and "sucks under pressure".


I'm sure Alonso has as well. And? If he doesn't back out there then they crash, hows that getting him the title? He tried to bully Petrov into giving it up and he showed he wasn't going to so why stay in, it's pointless when anything can happen in the next 30 laps with the cars ahead? As long as he's still in the race he can still win the title.

The WDC was on the line yeah and passing Petrov doesn't win him the title so anyone blaming Seb in that scenario would be wrong. Crashing with Petrov loses you the title right there though.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:49 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Bridgestones+No DRS+Rev līmited V8's+Old and down on power engine+No mistakes from the Renault= No overtake.


I'm pretty sure I've seen Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen make overtaking moves from further back than this:

https://streamable.com/gw8sk

Ferrari were mainly to blame for their strategy, but Alonso could have been more aggressive. The WDC was on the line.

If Vettel lost a WDC because he could not overtake Petrov, people would murder him for it for the rest of his career. Such race would forever be referenced as evidence that Vettel "can't overtake" and "sucks under pressure".


Your not looking at it in context. Alonso would still have been champion if Vettel had some kind of issue which took him out of the lead which happened a fair few times in 2012. Alonso could try an all on nothing move against Petrov knowing he'd still have to catch and pass two other cars to be champion or he could keep himself in the race and hope things fell for him. He played the percentage game. It was hardly like a pass on Perez would give him the championship. He'd still have to pass Kubcia and Rosberg.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:02 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Your not looking at it in context. Alonso would still have been champion if Vettel had some kind of issue which took him out of the lead which happened a fair few times in 2012. Alonso could try an all on nothing move against Petrov knowing he'd still have to catch and pass two other cars to be champion or he could keep himself in the race and hope things fell for him. He played the percentage game. It was hardly like a pass on Perez would give him the championship. He'd still have to pass Kubcia and Rosberg.

Well actually, the only reason Kubica ended up in front of Alonso was because Alonso was stuck behind Petrov for so long that it allowed Kubica to build up a 22 second lead and join in front of Petrov and Alonso when he pitted around lap 40. If Alonso had made that move stick on lap 24, the only driver between him and the title would be Rosberg.

The rest of your post - point taken.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:41 pm 
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You have to tip your hat to Petrov though. Not just because he only made one half-mistake with a semi-bad exit in the clip shared in about 30+ laps but for just trying to begin with.

I'm so used to watching young driver programmes drivers wave cars by, or junior team wave them by or even drivers just favouring one driver a bit more and not putting up a fight, that to see a guy fight for that many laps with nothing in it for himself is great.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Kev627 wrote:
Due to Alonso's poor or badly timed team moves and his reluctance to stay with good teams despite his 2 WDCs I never think of Alonso as a particularly fantastic driver at all. Very much a case of 'so what?'.

McLaren 2007 is the only team that fits the "reluctance to stay with good teams" bit. And that was a team & driver mutual decision. Ron wasn't exactly begging him to stay

Ferrari in 2014 looked lost. And things weren't looking up in any way. They didn't have a good handle on the engines. They started chopping the management from the top down. It very much looked like early 90s Ferrari all over again - a particularly messy period in their history. I hate when people claim that they knew Ferrari were going to come good again. Nobody knew. And still, it took 3 years for them to get to the level Alonso felt it was worth staying for


Yes at the time it was hardly a no brainer to stay. it was obvious Ferrari and Renault weren't about to catch Merc in the engine department so jumping on board with Mclaren Honda looked just about the only opportunity to compete for a championship if Merc themselves weren't going to hire you. People at the time even talked about what a massive advantage Honda would have being able to develop for a whole extra season and not be restricted by the ludicrous token system that was in place at the time.


This line of reasoning does Alonso a disservice, if a driver of his calibre who has direct knowledge of what the team is doing and how the restructuring is going and could not see what they were doing even after James Allison begged him to stay according to some on here then it's not wrong to say he makes bad decisions.

Ferrari was not lost in '14 they had a problem with the size of turbo due to the aero teams request for packaging which was going to be corrected the following season due to the limitation of the token system.

Indeed and what Alonso couldn't see didn't put Vettel off joining Ferrari, did Vettel see something that Alonso didn't?

He saw a team his childhood hero became a legend with. And Ricciardo wasn't driving the other car

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:00 pm 
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Alonso might be remembered to be a ruthless character, mostly off the track.

He will also remembers as the driver who deserved more titles than he actually got. Guess his team choices would soon be lost in pages of history. What will remain is:

- He beat Michael Schumacher
- Closely missed three titles
- Put car where it did not deserve to be.
- A tough driver to manage

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