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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:38 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
As a good one, but not a great one, his numbers wont stack up to the very best when the physical memory of his exploits are lost to the mists of time, which probably has a lot to do with his current goal of chasing the Triple Crown, cementing his status in legend in another fashion. Those of us lucky enough to have seen him drive in the flesh will know just how fantastic he was, but as you mention, some poor career decisions and some pretty poor personal choices will ultimately do for his ultimate standing in the pantheon of F1 greats.


There are several great who's numbers don't always stack up - Villeneuve being the most obvious.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel and Alonso both had an equal opportunity to win the 2010 championship. In the end, the better man won.

And I suppose if Webber hadn't been pitted at the wrong time in Abu Dhabi, he would have been the better man than either of them?

Webber had already lost to Vettel before his pit stop. He needed to beat Vettel in that race and was being dropped at a rate of 10 seconds in 15 laps.

Anyway, Webber had the best car in 2010. He had the fastest car minus the unreliability Vettel suffered. Webber would have been a lucky WDC, like Rosberg.

Alonso and Vettel had equal cars in 2010 if you take both speed and reliability into account.


What complete rot. How are cars nearly half a second apart on average be any way near equal? Having to make up that pace deficit will define how you approach every session and Alonso who was also new to the team did too much at times and made mistakes but had at least one reliability issue I can think of in Malaysia as well that meant they had to run his remaining engines on lower damage cycles (less power) to make it through the year as well as that dodgy penalty in GB.

He was only in the title fight because Seb shared too many points with Webber,made his own mistakes and yeah had that unreliability. We also had Lewis and JB sharing points otherwise Lewis would've (deservedly) taken it over both.

Getting into a title fight with a car half a second slower isn't a plus point for Seb and negative for Alonso as you try and make out and that's why the team bosses named Alonso the best driver despite those mistakes, he just shouldn't have been in the fight with that car to begin with. (Lewis was DOTY imo but they at least acknowledge the car difference between the title protagonists by giving it to Alonso)

Calling it equal is like calling this years Red Bull equal to Merc and Ferrari, it's silly. There would've been opportunity for a lead Bull driver with a support act to be in this years title fight because of the plethora of issues the lead drivers have had at Merc/Ferrari (If the Bull was reliable anyway) but it wouldn't make the cars or opportunity they have equal at all. It's being in a position to take advantage of mistakes vs being able to approach the weekend knowing you have the car to top each session like the RB6 gave.

It's chalk and cheese.


Yes, this is pretty clear. Vettel had a much better opportunity at the title in 2010.

If Alonso drove a little better in 2010 he may have sneaked the title at the final race...
If Vettel drove a little better in 2010 it would have been another 2011...even if he had 2 DNFs (he had 1 in 2011), there was still an opportunity for around 10 wins.

That says it all.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:03 pm 
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One of the very greatest without question. An absolute destroyer of teammates. Massa,and Fisichella were considered very good drivers with world champion potential at various times. Alonso trampled all over them them. Against Raikkonen he showed the difference between a very good driver and a great one.

The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007. This cost him a third successive world title and gave him two seasons away from the fight.

Despite this, He looked for all the world to be the mab to lead Ferrari back to sustained glory. The rise of Red Bull and then Mercedes put paid to that.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:07 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:17 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary?

Considering he tried to take back his blackmail attempt I'd suggest it was said in a heated moment where he'd lost his cool so mental disintegration could fit although maybe it's a bit of an exaggerated terminology.

Hissy fit would cover it.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:18 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Now it is called bad luck ahah ok mate.
What about Canada then?

He was close in the points at the end because of Hamilton's disastrous race in China and gearbox failure in Brazil.

Not to mention Hamilton had a rim failure in Qualifying in Germany and didn't participate in Q3. This is the event that triggered and justified Hamilton's actions in Hungary where he refused to give another advantage to Alonso because he felt in Germany Alonso actually had his turn with the lowest amount of fuel since his teammate(Hamilton) had a crash. He felt Hungary was his turn just for Alonso to show he doesn't care.

Hamilton was leading the WDC from the 4th race and lost the lead only after the last race to Kimi.

Please keep it clean and report the facts as they happened in 2007 without fabricating events or bad luck.


Last edited by Pullrod on Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:21 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:55 pm 
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He picked a bad time to go, although he does not say he is retiring, just not driving for Mclaren next year. Read into it what you will.

A bad time for him, because it is so long since he was high in any results, but more so because of the new drivers coning in to F1. It seems that there are a few lean years, when old drivers are nostalgically remembered, and a few fat years with headline grabbers like Max and the youngsters spicing up next year on.

He may get some press if he gets the 'triple crown', but he is not the first man to do it, and it will now become a target, so normalized.

I have never been a big Alonso fan, but everyone has to appreciate and recognise his driving ability and style, so sad to see him go.

What I do wait for is his (and other people concerned) book.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:01 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
What complete rot. How are cars nearly half a second apart on average be any way near equal? Having to make up that pace deficit will define how you approach every session and Alonso who was also new to the team did too much at times and made mistakes but had at least one reliability issue I can think of in Malaysia as well that meant they had to run his remaining engines on lower damage cycles (less power) to make it through the year as well as that dodgy penalty in GB.

Because Vettel lost a net 79 points relative to Alonso in 3 races, I see why that’s so difficult to understand. Vettel lost close to as many points due to unreliability as Raikkonen did in 2005. Everyone agrees that unreliability was a valid reason to why Kimi lost the 2005 championship, yet for some reason it isn’t a valid reason why Vettel nearly lost 2010.

79 points is a huge amount. That’s more than 3 race wins in the 16 races left to make up. Red Bull’s gap to Ferrari was about 0.350s and Ferrari had the better car on 3-5 weekends.

Quote:
Calling it equal is like calling this years Red Bull equal to Merc and Ferrari, it's silly. There would've been opportunity for a lead Bull driver with a support act to be in this years title fight because of the plethora of issues the lead drivers have had at Merc/Ferrari (If the Bull was reliable anyway) but it wouldn't make the cars or opportunity they have equal at all. It's being in a position to take advantage of mistakes vs being able to approach the weekend knowing you have the car to top each session like the RB6 gave.

The fundamental difference is that this years Red Bull is not only slower, but also less reliable than Ferrari/Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:22 pm 
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Comparing 2005 and 2010 is disingenuous, two completely different dynamics. Kimi in 2005 did not makes mistake on top of his bad reliability. That is the key difference.

Off the top of my head, Kimi also lost way more points to reliability too.

Edit- Rough count is 44 points, which in the newer points system is around 110 points. That also isn't including the Malaysian puncture and Nurburgring last lap suspension failure. So with the puncture its more 50 points or 125 points.


Last edited by Johnson on Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:26 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.


What bridges did he burn in 2007 that he could have walked across later in his career? He is clearly driving for McLaren again, unless I'm completely wrong on what you mean with this comment


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:27 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.

yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:28 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.


What bridges did he burn in 2007 that he could have walked across later in his career? He is clearly driving for McLaren again, unless I'm completely wrong on what you mean with this comment

Possibly Mercedes. I think I read somewhere that Mercedes wouldn't touch him because of his actions in 2007, although I could be wrong


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:34 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.


What bridges did he burn in 2007 that he could have walked across later in his career? He is clearly driving for McLaren again, unless I'm completely wrong on what you mean with this comment

Possibly Mercedes. I think I read somewhere that Mercedes wouldn't touch him because of his actions in 2007, although I could be wrong

Of course, thanks Zoue, I was silly thinking only of Macca.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:35 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.

yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.


Last edited by Pullrod on Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:35 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
This feels a bit like an obituary but I don't believe Alonso is finished with F1 just yet, given his present circumstances he was doomed to the F1 midfield for the next 2 years so why suffer that when he can be winning races in Indycars.

The F1 landscape is set to change after 2021, if circumstances become more favourable for him then don't be too surprised to see him back.

Hope you're right pokerman. I do think Alonso is more of a Schumacher than a Hakkinen. But I'll wait until (and celebrate if) we see it

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.

yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash. So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started with best strategy for the race.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

That doesn't justify what Hamilton did and what he said to his team over the radio. The team counted Alonso down in the pitlane and timed it so Hamilton would miss his qualifying lap. Alonso paid the price for it, blew up on Ron and the rest is history

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:45 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
What complete rot. How are cars nearly half a second apart on average be any way near equal? Having to make up that pace deficit will define how you approach every session and Alonso who was also new to the team did too much at times and made mistakes but had at least one reliability issue I can think of in Malaysia as well that meant they had to run his remaining engines on lower damage cycles (less power) to make it through the year as well as that dodgy penalty in GB.

Because Vettel lost a net 79 points relative to Alonso in 3 races, I see why that’s so difficult to understand. Vettel lost close to as many points due to unreliability as Raikkonen did in 2005. Everyone agrees that unreliability was a valid reason to why Kimi lost the 2005 championship, yet for some reason it isn’t a valid reason why Vettel nearly lost 2010.

79 points is a huge amount. That’s more than 3 race wins in the 16 races left to make up. Red Bull’s gap to Ferrari was about 0.350s and Ferrari had the better car on 3-5 weekends.


Of course you can have it as a valid reason, no-one's saying otherwise. You still seem to think 2010 is treated the same as 2012 when it comes to praise but I've just never seen it. Alonso shouldn't have been close enough because his car wasn't good enough on the vast majority of weekends so pointing out any of the reasons why he was still in the hunt is fine, both positive and negative, and Seb's unreliability is one of those reasons. Calling the cars equal because of it is just silly, it was perfectly reliable for the vast majority of the campaign and those points collected due to it's performance are what wins you the title.

I think it was 0.45 but I get that there are differing methods but point is it's far too big a gap at even 0.35. I thought it was the best on maybe 3-4 so not much different there.


Quote:
The fundamental difference is that this years Red Bull is not only slower, but also less reliable than Ferrari/Mercedes.


I did mention reliability but the point above stands. As does how having the fastest car compared to having to make up significant pace deficits can affect how the driver approaches a weekend and how he performs.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:46 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.

yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash. So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started with best strategy for the race.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

That doesn't justify what Hamilton did and what he said to his team over the radio. The team counted Alonso down in the pitlane and timed it so Hamilton would miss his qualifying lap. Alonso paid the price for it, blew up on Ron and the rest is history


This is another lie. The Lollipop was lifted just for Alonso to stay there and waste time. He knew exactly what he was doing and was rightly penalized for impeding a fellow competitor to do his Q3 lap. The rules are clear.


Last edited by Pullrod on Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:47 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?

Again this bad luck, crashing into a wall on a wet track when nobody else did is not bad luck, also it basically took Hamilton to score next to no points in the last 2 races for the points to be close.

So Alonso still matched Hamilton whilst frozen out of the team, Hamilton was matching Alonso at the beginning of the season despite Alonso having preferential treatment.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:50 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.


What bridges did he burn in 2007 that he could have walked across later in his career? He is clearly driving for McLaren again, unless I'm completely wrong on what you mean with this comment

Mercedes.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:51 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:

Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.

yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash. So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started with best strategy for the race.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

That doesn't justify what Hamilton did and what he said to his team over the radio. The team counted Alonso down in the pitlane and timed it so Hamilton would miss his qualifying lap. Alonso paid the price for it, blew up on Ron and the rest is history


This is another lie. The Lollipop was lifted just for Alonso to stay there and waste time. He knew exactly what he was doing and was rightly penalized for impeding a fellow competitor to do his Q3 lap. The rules are clear.


The lollipop lifted to signal that the car was ready to go, he was waiting for the countdown from his race engineer from memory. So it's not a lie


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.


What bridges did he burn in 2007 that he could have walked across later in his career? He is clearly driving for McLaren again, unless I'm completely wrong on what you mean with this comment

Mercedes.


Yes, thank you Poker, Zoue mentioned it above.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:53 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
This feels a bit like an obituary but I don't believe Alonso is finished with F1 just yet, given his present circumstances he was doomed to the F1 midfield for the next 2 years so why suffer that when he can be winning races in Indycars.

The F1 landscape is set to change after 2021, if circumstances become more favourable for him then don't be too surprised to see him back.

Hope you're right pokerman. I do think Alonso is more of a Schumacher than a Hakkinen. But I'll wait until (and celebrate if) we see it

Well it wouldn't surprise me even if it's Liberty Media that has a hand in it especially if Alonso became the Indycar Champion.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:54 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?

Again this bad luck, crashing into a wall on a wet track when nobody else did is not bad luck, also it basically took Hamilton to score next to no points in the last 2 races for the points to be close.

So Alonso still matched Hamilton whilst frozen out of the team, Hamilton was matching Alonso at the beginning of the season despite Alonso having preferential treatment.


Exactly this. :thumbup:
Sometimes I wonder if people did watch the 2007 season. Hamilton was leading the WDC standings after 4 races and before Monaco(where he went to the press) the best qualifying strategies were for Alonso.

It is only the race after that (Canada) when they started to alternate in qualifyings and guess what? Hamilton scored his first pole position and his first win of his F1 career.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:56 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.

yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash. So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started with best strategy for the race.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

That doesn't justify what Hamilton did and what he said to his team over the radio. The team counted Alonso down in the pitlane and timed it so Hamilton would miss his qualifying lap. Alonso paid the price for it, blew up on Ron and the rest is history

I thought that was Alonso's personal assistant that did that and Dennis was not happy with him, did he not grab the headphones off his head?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.


What bridges did he burn in 2007 that he could have walked across later in his career? He is clearly driving for McLaren again, unless I'm completely wrong on what you mean with this comment

Mercedes.


Yes, thank you Poker, Zoue mentioned it above.

Yeah I've seen now.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:01 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
This feels a bit like an obituary but I don't believe Alonso is finished with F1 just yet, given his present circumstances he was doomed to the F1 midfield for the next 2 years so why suffer that when he can be winning races in Indycars.

The F1 landscape is set to change after 2021, if circumstances become more favourable for him then don't be too surprised to see him back.

Hope you're right pokerman. I do think Alonso is more of a Schumacher than a Hakkinen. But I'll wait until (and celebrate if) we see it


I too think he'll be back in 2021 with McLaren. Maybe 2020 if he completes what he's after and McLaren look better. He's staying in the fold there apparently so while Zak is still in charge I think he's viable until at least 43 like Schumacher.

He's in a weirdly bad but leaving good opportunities out if it type situation as he's not protecting anything. He's ruined his stats with years in the backmarkers so driving around well past his best but in the hope he gets a dominant car is no issue as long as he's hungry enough to do it.

If he loses, he's been out the game and is 40 etc..and it'll have little effect on his standing. If he wins or comes close then he's only going to go up in people's view by doing it after being away and out of his prime so he can really wring the neck out of it if a seats there.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.

yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash. So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started with best strategy for the race.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

That doesn't justify what Hamilton did and what he said to his team over the radio. The team counted Alonso down in the pitlane and timed it so Hamilton would miss his qualifying lap. Alonso paid the price for it, blew up on Ron and the rest is history

I thought that was Alonso's personal assistant that did that and Dennis was not happy with him, did he not grab the headphones off his head?

Could have been. Whoever it was, Alonso was following orders from the pitwall. Would a personal assistant have access to a driver during qualifying? Weird setup by McLaren if that was the case

On the original point of this particular comment thread I do think Alonso lost 2007 because he lost the head. He would have won it if he kept his cool at any of Spain, Canada or Hungary post-qualy. Probably throw Fuji in too - he aquaplaned where he did, the rest didn't. And the reason for all of that was simply Lewis Hamilton (and a few Ron-related issues)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:41 pm 
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In terms of pure driving talent he is one of the best there has ever been. In the same league as Clark, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, and Hamilton. Much as Schumacher will always be rated as more successful than all of the others with the possible exception of Hamilton, Alonso will not be rated as being as successful as Hamilton or Vettel. Many people rate him higher than Hamilton. I don't, but its close. I think Alonso is better at adapting to a car (although Lewis is very good) and strategizing during a race. I rate Hamilton as ever so slightly faster and better in the wet. Both are prone to outbursts that have been detrimental to them (as is Vettel) but Alonso's have cost him more dearly than Hamilton's have. I think Hamilton's have cost him points in championship races and while Alonso's have not cost him as many points they have cost him being excluded from driving some of the best cars.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:49 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The biggest blot on his copybook is his mental disintegration against Hamilton in 2007.
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.

yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:

Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.

yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash. So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started with best strategy for the race.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

That doesn't justify what Hamilton did and what he said to his team over the radio. The team counted Alonso down in the pitlane and timed it so Hamilton would miss his qualifying lap. Alonso paid the price for it, blew up on Ron and the rest is history

I thought that was Alonso's personal assistant that did that and Dennis was not happy with him, did he not grab the headphones off his head?


It was his physio Fabrizio Borra, who was rumoured to have been counting with his fingers to show Alonso how long to stay in the box. But Alonso was also having a discussion over the tires with his race engineer Mark Slade, which he claimed was another reason he was late.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:04 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.

yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst


Yes, Alonso didn't want the same advantage that Hamilton had as mentioned above, they had a rotation system that had one driver with an extra lap's fuel in a race by race rotation. In Hungary it was Alonso's turn to have the advantage but Hamilton did not let him pass, justifying his action by saying that Kimi would have also gotten through. This prompted Alonso's retaliation. The rest is history


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:29 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
This feels a bit like an obituary but I don't believe Alonso is finished with F1 just yet, given his present circumstances he was doomed to the F1 midfield for the next 2 years so why suffer that when he can be winning races in Indycars.

The F1 landscape is set to change after 2021, if circumstances become more favourable for him then don't be too surprised to see him back.

Hope you're right pokerman. I do think Alonso is more of a Schumacher than a Hakkinen. But I'll wait until (and celebrate if) we see it


I too think he'll be back in 2021 with McLaren. Maybe 2020 if he completes what he's after and McLaren look better. He's staying in the fold there apparently so while Zak is still in charge I think he's viable until at least 43 like Schumacher.

He's in a weirdly bad but leaving good opportunities out if it type situation as he's not protecting anything. He's ruined his stats with years in the backmarkers so driving around well past his best but in the hope he gets a dominant car is no issue as long as he's hungry enough to do it.

If he loses, he's been out the game and is 40 etc..and it'll have little effect on his standing. If he wins or comes close then he's only going to go up in people's view by doing it after being away and out of his prime so he can really wring the neck out of it if a seats there.

Or...

If Renault get their engine sorted out and Ricciardo trounces Hulk, I could see Renault offering Alonso a HEFTY sum to return home. Maybe a long shot, but if I was running Renault, that’s the best possible scenario. Would love to see him in black and yellow and it would give a very definitive assessment of Ricciardo too.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:33 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.

yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst


Yes, Alonso didn't want the same advantage that Hamilton had as mentioned above, they had a rotation system that had one driver with an extra lap's fuel in a race by race rotation. In Hungary it was Alonso's turn to have the advantage but Hamilton did not let him pass, justifying his action by saying that Kimi would have also gotten through. This prompted Alonso's retaliation. The rest is history


Yes in theory Hungary was Alonso's turn, but since the race before was Hamilton's turn and he could not participate because of the crash in qualifyings, Lewis pretended to make Hungary his. It was only fair from his point of view. The system was designed to keep things fair.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:52 pm 
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Easily one of the greatest drivers to have driven an F1 car. Should've retired two years ago though. His records don't do him justice, and over time people might forget how good a driver he was.

It's a shame I absolutely hated him when he was getting results, trying to deny how good he was. Once I got over it, he just went down the drain.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:53 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst


Yes, Alonso didn't want the same advantage that Hamilton had as mentioned above, they had a rotation system that had one driver with an extra lap's fuel in a race by race rotation. In Hungary it was Alonso's turn to have the advantage but Hamilton did not let him pass, justifying his action by saying that Kimi would have also gotten through. This prompted Alonso's retaliation. The rest is history


Yes in theory Hungary was Alonso's turn, but since the race before was Hamilton's turn and he could not participate because of the crash in qualifyings, Lewis pretended to make Hungary his. It was only fair from his point of view. The system was designed to keep things fair.


True, though as mentioned above, not his call really. He should have discussed this with the team as a minimum.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:56 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash. So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started with best strategy for the race.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

That doesn't justify what Hamilton did and what he said to his team over the radio. The team counted Alonso down in the pitlane and timed it so Hamilton would miss his qualifying lap. Alonso paid the price for it, blew up on Ron and the rest is history

I thought that was Alonso's personal assistant that did that and Dennis was not happy with him, did he not grab the headphones off his head?

Could have been. Whoever it was, Alonso was following orders from the pitwall. Would a personal assistant have access to a driver during qualifying? Weird setup by McLaren if that was the case

On the original point of this particular comment thread I do think Alonso lost 2007 because he lost the head. He would have won it if he kept his cool at any of Spain, Canada or Hungary post-qualy. Probably throw Fuji in too - he aquaplaned where he did, the rest didn't. And the reason for all of that was simply Lewis Hamilton (and a few Ron-related issues)

He was wearing a headset and as far as I'm aware he worked for Alonso.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:06 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst


Yes, Alonso didn't want the same advantage that Hamilton had as mentioned above, they had a rotation system that had one driver with an extra lap's fuel in a race by race rotation. In Hungary it was Alonso's turn to have the advantage but Hamilton did not let him pass, justifying his action by saying that Kimi would have also gotten through. This prompted Alonso's retaliation. The rest is history


Yes in theory Hungary was Alonso's turn, but since the race before was Hamilton's turn and he could not participate because of the crash in qualifyings, Lewis pretended to make Hungary his. It was only fair from his point of view. The system was designed to keep things fair.


So, let's summarize the facts:
- Hamilton violated explicit qualifying team orders to disadvantage Alonso and for his own benefit. Fact.
- Alonso delayed Hamilton in retaliation. Fact.
- Did Alonso act against explicit orders from the team (e.g. shouting at him to drive out of the pits) or did he act in accordance with relevant team representatives (Slade talking to him about tyres ...) or did the team silently condoned his retaliation. AFAIK, this is actually unknown, no version of these events can be called a fact.
- The FIA penalized Alonso for impeding Hamilton but not Hamilton for impeding Alonso (what he evidently also did). Fact.
- Was the FIA verdict fair and/or justified? No fact, matter of opinion.

IMO, Alonso threatening Dennis with blackmailing in the heat of the moment during a hefty discussion was a huge mistake and can be called a mental disintegration - for a few moments. He soon after backtracked, but too late for the events to unfold due to Dennis (over-)reaction. It was the mistake of a 25 year old confronted with new experience of adversity. If that defines his career for some, that is sort of harsh. ;-)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:07 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel and Alonso both had an equal opportunity to win the 2010 championship. In the end, the better man won.

And I suppose if Webber hadn't been pitted at the wrong time in Abu Dhabi, he would have been the better man than either of them?

Webber had already lost to Vettel before his pit stop. He needed to beat Vettel in that race and was being dropped at a rate of 10 seconds in 15 laps.

Anyway, Webber had the best car in 2010. He had the fastest car minus the unreliability Vettel suffered. Webber would have been a lucky WDC, like Rosberg.

Alonso and Vettel had equal cars in 2010 if you take both speed and reliability into account.


What complete rot. How are cars nearly half a second apart on average be any way near equal? Having to make up that pace deficit will define how you approach every session and Alonso who was also new to the team did too much at times and made mistakes but had at least one reliability issue I can think of in Malaysia as well that meant they had to run his remaining engines on lower damage cycles (less power) to make it through the year as well as that dodgy penalty in GB.

He was only in the title fight because Seb shared too many points with Webber,made his own mistakes and yeah had that unreliability. We also had Lewis and JB sharing points otherwise Lewis would've (deservedly) taken it over both.

Getting into a title fight with a car half a second slower isn't a plus point for Seb and negative for Alonso as you try and make out and that's why the team bosses named Alonso the best driver despite those mistakes, he just shouldn't have been in the fight with that car to begin with. (Lewis was DOTY imo but they at least acknowledge the car difference between the title protagonists by giving it to Alonso)

Calling it equal is like calling this years Red Bull equal to Merc and Ferrari, it's silly. There would've been opportunity for a lead Bull driver with a support act to be in this years title fight because of the plethora of issues the lead drivers have had at Merc/Ferrari (If the Bull was reliable anyway) but it wouldn't make the cars or opportunity they have equal at all. It's being in a position to take advantage of mistakes vs being able to approach the weekend knowing you have the car to top each session like the RB6 gave.

It's chalk and cheese.


Yes, this is pretty clear. Vettel had a much better opportunity at the title in 2010.

If Alonso drove a little better in 2010 he may have sneaked the title at the final race...
If Vettel drove a little better in 2010 it would have been another 2011...even if he had 2 DNFs (he had 1 in 2011), there was still an opportunity for around 10 wins.

That says it all.


:thumbup:
Exactly!


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