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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:08 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I don't think he did disintegrate mentally against Hamilton - despite being frozen out of the team he still matched Lewis on points and would have beaten him but for his moment of bad luck in Japan. I believe he was unpleasantly surprised by Hamilton's speed, though he obviously knew how much preparation the team had put him through. But mental disintegration? Do yo see any specific signs of that?


Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.

yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst

You're only seeing the tip of the iceberg though and not all the politics behind the scene, why would Hamilton choose to act so irrationally?

Hamilton actually did an interview after the incident and said he was being left out of strategic meetings which involved Alonso, so I would be guessing that without a voice he acted out on the track.

He doesn't like things to be done behind his back, as we know he wasn't happy to walk into the McLaren factory to find Button and all the race engineers poring over his data.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:10 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash. So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started with best strategy for the race.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

That doesn't justify what Hamilton did and what he said to his team over the radio. The team counted Alonso down in the pitlane and timed it so Hamilton would miss his qualifying lap. Alonso paid the price for it, blew up on Ron and the rest is history

I thought that was Alonso's personal assistant that did that and Dennis was not happy with him, did he not grab the headphones off his head?


It was his physio Fabrizio Borra, who was rumoured to have been counting with his fingers to show Alonso how long to stay in the box. But Alonso was also having a discussion over the tires with his race engineer Mark Slade, which he claimed was another reason he was late.

That being a nice side story.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:12 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.

yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst


Yes, Alonso didn't want the same advantage that Hamilton had as mentioned above, they had a rotation system that had one driver with an extra lap's fuel in a race by race rotation. In Hungary it was Alonso's turn to have the advantage but Hamilton did not let him pass, justifying his action by saying that Kimi would have also gotten through. This prompted Alonso's retaliation. The rest is history

Hamilton lost his turn the previous race when a rim failed in qualifying meaning basically that Alonso got the advantage 3 races on the bounce, fair?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
That doesn't justify what Hamilton did and what he said to his team over the radio. The team counted Alonso down in the pitlane and timed it so Hamilton would miss his qualifying lap. Alonso paid the price for it, blew up on Ron and the rest is history

I thought that was Alonso's personal assistant that did that and Dennis was not happy with him, did he not grab the headphones off his head?


It was his physio Fabrizio Borra, who was rumoured to have been counting with his fingers to show Alonso how long to stay in the box. But Alonso was also having a discussion over the tires with his race engineer Mark Slade, which he claimed was another reason he was late.

That being a nice side story.

What do you mean?

Ron said that he didn't pull the physio out of anger, he denied manhandling him. Ron said that he was trying to get his attention to ask for his help, hence getting his headphones down. He wanted him to accompany him to the parc ferme to calm the two drivers down.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst


Yes, Alonso didn't want the same advantage that Hamilton had as mentioned above, they had a rotation system that had one driver with an extra lap's fuel in a race by race rotation. In Hungary it was Alonso's turn to have the advantage but Hamilton did not let him pass, justifying his action by saying that Kimi would have also gotten through. This prompted Alonso's retaliation. The rest is history

Hamilton lost his turn the previous race when a rim failed in qualifying meaning basically that Alonso got the advantage 3 races on the bounce, fair?


How is that exactly Alonso's problem?

The turns were allocated as per their rotation system, so Hamilton missing his for an unfortunate reason doesn't justify taking the other driver's turn.

And again, it wasn't his decision to take.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:21 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst


Yes, Alonso didn't want the same advantage that Hamilton had as mentioned above, they had a rotation system that had one driver with an extra lap's fuel in a race by race rotation. In Hungary it was Alonso's turn to have the advantage but Hamilton did not let him pass, justifying his action by saying that Kimi would have also gotten through. This prompted Alonso's retaliation. The rest is history


Yes in theory Hungary was Alonso's turn, but since the race before was Hamilton's turn and he could not participate because of the crash in qualifyings, Lewis pretended to make Hungary his. It was only fair from his point of view. The system was designed to keep things fair.


So, let's summarize the facts:
- Hamilton violated explicit qualifying team orders to disadvantage Alonso and for his own benefit. Fact.
- Alonso delayed Hamilton in retaliation. Fact.
- Did Alonso act against explicit orders from the team (e.g. shouting at him to drive out of the pits) or did he act in accordance with relevant team representatives (Slade talking to him about tyres ...) or did the team silently condoned his retaliation. AFAIK, this is actually unknown, no version of these events can be called a fact.
- The FIA penalized Alonso for impeding Hamilton but not Hamilton for impeding Alonso (what he evidently also did). Fact.
- Was the FIA verdict fair and/or justified? No fact, matter of opinion.

IMO, Alonso threatening Dennis with blackmailing in the heat of the moment during a hefty discussion was a huge mistake and can be called a mental disintegration - for a few moments. He soon after backtracked, but too late for the events to unfold due to Dennis (over-)reaction. It was the mistake of a 25 year old confronted with new experience of adversity. If that defines his career for some, that is sort of harsh. ;-)

Ignoring team orders is not an offence.

The tyre talk is just a smoke screen, did the stewards believe it?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:23 pm 
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Posts: 27515
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
That doesn't justify what Hamilton did and what he said to his team over the radio. The team counted Alonso down in the pitlane and timed it so Hamilton would miss his qualifying lap. Alonso paid the price for it, blew up on Ron and the rest is history

I thought that was Alonso's personal assistant that did that and Dennis was not happy with him, did he not grab the headphones off his head?


It was his physio Fabrizio Borra, who was rumoured to have been counting with his fingers to show Alonso how long to stay in the box. But Alonso was also having a discussion over the tires with his race engineer Mark Slade, which he claimed was another reason he was late.

That being a nice side story.

What do you mean?

Ron said that he didn't pull the physio out of anger, he denied manhandling him. Ron said that he was trying to get his attention to ask for his help, hence getting his headphones down. He wanted him to accompany him to the parc ferme to calm the two drivers down.

If Alonso was doing nothing wrong then why did he need calming down?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:26 pm 
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Posts: 2014
pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

Yes in theory Hungary was Alonso's turn, but since the race before was Hamilton's turn and he could not participate because of the crash in qualifyings, Lewis pretended to make Hungary his. It was only fair from his point of view. The system was designed to keep things fair.


So, let's summarize the facts:
- Hamilton violated explicit qualifying team orders to disadvantage Alonso and for his own benefit. Fact.
- Alonso delayed Hamilton in retaliation. Fact.
- Did Alonso act against explicit orders from the team (e.g. shouting at him to drive out of the pits) or did he act in accordance with relevant team representatives (Slade talking to him about tyres ...) or did the team silently condoned his retaliation. AFAIK, this is actually unknown, no version of these events can be called a fact.
- The FIA penalized Alonso for impeding Hamilton but not Hamilton for impeding Alonso (what he evidently also did). Fact.
- Was the FIA verdict fair and/or justified? No fact, matter of opinion.

IMO, Alonso threatening Dennis with blackmailing in the heat of the moment during a hefty discussion was a huge mistake and can be called a mental disintegration - for a few moments. He soon after backtracked, but too late for the events to unfold due to Dennis (over-)reaction. It was the mistake of a 25 year old confronted with new experience of adversity. If that defines his career for some, that is sort of harsh. ;-)



The tyre talk is just a smoke screen, did the stewards believe it?


Source?

As I wrote, none version of events can be called a fact.
;)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:34 pm 
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Posts: 23695
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst


Yes, Alonso didn't want the same advantage that Hamilton had as mentioned above, they had a rotation system that had one driver with an extra lap's fuel in a race by race rotation. In Hungary it was Alonso's turn to have the advantage but Hamilton did not let him pass, justifying his action by saying that Kimi would have also gotten through. This prompted Alonso's retaliation. The rest is history

Hamilton lost his turn the previous race when a rim failed in qualifying meaning basically that Alonso got the advantage 3 races on the bounce, fair?

It's hardly the point. It wasn't Hamilton's decision to make, fair or not. That's undoubtedly what upset him


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Hamilton lost his turn the previous race when a rim failed in qualifying meaning basically that Alonso got the advantage 3 races on the bounce, fair?


I think so. Hamilton was unlucky he missed his turn but he crashed out in the race anyway so it didn't cost him anything.

Either way it wasn't his decision to make.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:

Hungary qualifying 2007. He was Sitting in his car like Michael Douglas at the start of Falling down to make sure Hamilton couldn't pit in time. He even tried to blackmail the team to try and be treated like a number one.

He still drove very well. He just burned some bridges that he could have walked across later in his career.

yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst

You're only seeing the tip of the iceberg though and not all the politics behind the scene, why would Hamilton choose to act so irrationally?

Hamilton actually did an interview after the incident and said he was being left out of strategic meetings which involved Alonso, so I would be guessing that without a voice he acted out on the track.

He doesn't like things to be done behind his back, as we know he wasn't happy to walk into the McLaren factory to find Button and all the race engineers poring over his data.

Yes but in all fairness just because he feels hard done by doesn't mean he can take matters into his own hands. What he likes or dislikes is not the point. And remember we're discussing why Alonso was angry and it seems likely that Hamilton taking matters into his own hands and "stealing" Alonso's "perk" is what set him off. Whether Hamilton was right to feel left out or not isn't strictly speaking relevant in that context. It's his actions which started the ball rolling


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:42 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst


Yes, Alonso didn't want the same advantage that Hamilton had as mentioned above, they had a rotation system that had one driver with an extra lap's fuel in a race by race rotation. In Hungary it was Alonso's turn to have the advantage but Hamilton did not let him pass, justifying his action by saying that Kimi would have also gotten through. This prompted Alonso's retaliation. The rest is history


Yes in theory Hungary was Alonso's turn, but since the race before was Hamilton's turn and he could not participate because of the crash in qualifyings, Lewis pretended to make Hungary his. It was only fair from his point of view. The system was designed to keep things fair.

BIB: it wasn't theory, it was a fact that it was Alonso's turn. That's the whole reason why Alonso got so upset


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:03 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst


Yes, Alonso didn't want the same advantage that Hamilton had as mentioned above, they had a rotation system that had one driver with an extra lap's fuel in a race by race rotation. In Hungary it was Alonso's turn to have the advantage but Hamilton did not let him pass, justifying his action by saying that Kimi would have also gotten through. This prompted Alonso's retaliation. The rest is history


Yes in theory Hungary was Alonso's turn, but since the race before was Hamilton's turn and he could not participate because of the crash in qualifyings, Lewis pretended to make Hungary his. It was only fair from his point of view. The system was designed to keep things fair.


So, let's summarize the facts:
- Hamilton violated explicit qualifying team orders to disadvantage Alonso and for his own benefit. Fact.
- Alonso delayed Hamilton in retaliation. Fact.
- Did Alonso act against explicit orders from the team (e.g. shouting at him to drive out of the pits) or did he act in accordance with relevant team representatives (Slade talking to him about tyres ...) or did the team silently condoned his retaliation. AFAIK, this is actually unknown, no version of these events can be called a fact.
- The FIA penalized Alonso for impeding Hamilton but not Hamilton for impeding Alonso (what he evidently also did). Fact.
- Was the FIA verdict fair and/or justified? No fact, matter of opinion.

IMO, Alonso threatening Dennis with blackmailing in the heat of the moment during a hefty discussion was a huge mistake and can be called a mental disintegration - for a few moments. He soon after backtracked, but too late for the events to unfold due to Dennis (over-)reaction. It was the mistake of a 25 year old confronted with new experience of adversity. If that defines his career for some, that is sort of harsh. ;-)


Alonso carried the extra lap of fuel though so he had that advantage. Alonso wasn't disadvantaged in any real way by Hamilton but by the team in given him hard tyres for his 2nd run. Alonso was also ahead and in the lead position for the 2nd run so Hamilton must have let him by at some point?

I think that is what he was angry with but he still set the pole time with them but Hamilton likely would have beaten it.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:58 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I thought that was Alonso's personal assistant that did that and Dennis was not happy with him, did he not grab the headphones off his head?


It was his physio Fabrizio Borra, who was rumoured to have been counting with his fingers to show Alonso how long to stay in the box. But Alonso was also having a discussion over the tires with his race engineer Mark Slade, which he claimed was another reason he was late.

That being a nice side story.

What do you mean?

Ron said that he didn't pull the physio out of anger, he denied manhandling him. Ron said that he was trying to get his attention to ask for his help, hence getting his headphones down. He wanted him to accompany him to the parc ferme to calm the two drivers down.

If Alonso was doing nothing wrong then why did he need calming down?

Did you conveniently forget that it all started when Hamilton did not let him through? Alonso was furious and he retaliated. Wrongly in my opinion, two wrongs do not make a right, but I can't see how you believe that Alonso shouldn't be aggrieved when the other driver didn't follow the team's protocol, even if that driver is called Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:45 am 
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And once again we are back to a Hamilton versus discussion. Amazing.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:54 am 
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Lojik wrote:
And once again we are back to a Hamilton versus discussion. Amazing.

People have been discussing Alonso's state of mind in this particular incident, which itself set off a chain of events which heavily influenced Alonso's legacy, so it's relevant. And unfortunately Hamilton is involved in this, if only as a catalyst. Where the discussion appears to be getting bogged down is that some are getting hung up on blame, whereas in reality the only real relevance is to point out how it may have affected Alonso's mind and subsequent actions. Who was right or wrong is another discussion entirely


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:24 am 
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Regardless of what has happened in his career and mistakes he made including leaving Ferrari which I think was the biggest mistake of his life, Alonso will still go down in F1 as one of the best ever.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is blinded by their bias or hate. Period.

I am still somewhat angry at Alonso for losing faith in Ferrari, and he did shoot himself in foot by putting faith in McLaren of all teams back then. But that does not change the quality and capabilities of the man and F1 is not better off without him.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:51 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Regardless of what has happened in his career and mistakes he made including leaving Ferrari which I think was the biggest mistake of his life, Alonso will still go down in F1 as one of the best ever.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is blinded by their bias or hate. Period.

I am still somewhat angry at Alonso for losing faith in Ferrari, and he did shoot himself in foot by putting faith in McLaren of all teams back then. But that does not change the quality and capabilities of the man and F1 is not better off without him.

Very well said. I am thinking the same. The man is a unique driver, can cut it with the best of the best. It's only his team choices that have been unfortunate, to say the least.

I too think that his biggest mistake was leaving Ferrari for McLaren. With the emergence of Mercedes as a works team it was fairly evident that McLaren would need to find an engine partner as they wouldn't get the Merc or Ferrari engines. It was somewhat optimistic that Honda would nail it straight away in this period of limited testing and development, but equally no one would have thought it would take them so long to get it right. McLaren also helped by their packaging requests, something for another thread maybe.

I do think that he can be a bit of a nuisance sometimes in a team, he has on occasion thrown the toys out of the pram and he had his fair share of controversy. What can I say, Mediterranean temperament at it's best! But there is absolutely no doubt that he was one of the best drivers we have ever witnessed. What caught my attention was not only his speed and racecraft, but that he was relentless, as close to Schumacher's legendary skill as it can be. You would bet your house to Alonso being there, even in his off day he can deliver something unexpected.

What a driver...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:21 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Regardless of what has happened in his career and mistakes he made including leaving Ferrari which I think was the biggest mistake of his life, Alonso will still go down in F1 as one of the best ever.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is blinded by their bias or hate. Period.

I am still somewhat angry at Alonso for losing faith in Ferrari, and he did shoot himself in foot by putting faith in McLaren of all teams back then. But that does not change the quality and capabilities of the man and F1 is not better off without him.

Very well said. I am thinking the same. The man is a unique driver, can cut it with the best of the best. It's only his team choices that have been unfortunate, to say the least.

I too think that his biggest mistake was leaving Ferrari for McLaren. With the emergence of Mercedes as a works team it was fairly evident that McLaren would need to find an engine partner as they wouldn't get the Merc or Ferrari engines. It was somewhat optimistic that Honda would nail it straight away in this period of limited testing and development, but equally no one would have thought it would take them so long to get it right. McLaren also helped by their packaging requests, something for another thread maybe.

I do think that he can be a bit of a nuisance sometimes in a team, he has on occasion thrown the toys out of the pram and he had his fair share of controversy. What can I say, Mediterranean temperament at it's best! But there is absolutely no doubt that he was one of the best drivers we have ever witnessed. What caught my attention was not only his speed and racecraft, but that he was relentless, as close to Schumacher's legendary skill as it can be. You would bet your house to Alonso being there, even in his off day he can deliver something unexpected.

What a driver...

I think it's only a mistake with hindsight, really. People tend to forget that until very recently McLaren was a behemoth of the sport, up there with Ferrari. And I remember people on here trying at the time to claim that Honda had an unfair advantage because they had had a year behind the scenes where they could learn from others' mistakes and come out with all guns blazing. I think Alonso may be forgiven for thinking it was a sound idea, based on the evidence available at the time.

His big mistake for me, from which everything else followed, was Hungary 2007. Without that he may well have secured the 2007 title (let's face it, he was only 1 point off and it's not hard to imagine that the palpable disharmony in the team after that may have had some impact) and possibly 2008, too, given how many mistakes both Massa and Hamilton made that year. After that is anybody's guess but it's probable that neither Vettel or Hamilton would have the title records they do now and the F1 landscape would look very different.

Hungary 2007. Up there with betting on Microsoft Zune over Apple iPod...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:19 pm 
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Well as with a lot of things it depends on who you ask.

For fans of Alonso they will tell you he's the best of the current generation based on what they think should have happened, and not what actually happened.

For the neutrals they look at him a different way and admire his talent.

In the previous generation the Iceman was seen as the next best thing (as he gave Schumacher a tough time but Mclaren/Mercedes let him down) though Alonso won the titles then.

In this generation you have Vettel and Hamilton, and I wonder how people feel Alonso is better than this guys, both of this guys have a lot of things above Alonso asides driving talent which all 3 have in spades.

I see people saying Alonso was unlucky et all, but miss the fact that somehow Vettel and Hamilton go to teams and drive them forward, whereas with Alonso the opposite happens it cant be a coincidence.
The same plans Ferrari showed to Vettel, Alonso had knowledge of it but felt Mclaren was better, Mclaren last real push for glory was in '12.

One thing people like Schumacher and Vettel understood quickly in F1 is that beating your team mate is good for a driver in midfield who wants to progress to a front running car, if you want to be a serial winner you work towards having a grid beating car and compete for championships, with Alonso its what he can do with someone else's hardwork.

Hamilton too was stuck in this Alonso kind of mindset of beating team mates until he looked at the numbers Vettel was racking up and realised there is no championship for it outside of your fans saying it.

So for his legacy he will be remembered for what could have been not what actually happened, which has always been par for the course with Alonso.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:57 pm 
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Altair wrote:
Alonso will serve as a reminder of how much of this sport is about the car you drive rather than the skills of the driver.

As such, make no moves to alienate the top teams in the sport, otherwise even one of the best will be regulated to the best of the rest series.


I also think that is one of the things Alonso's career reminds us of. F1 is not a good sport for identifying who is the best driver. Cars, teams, reliability, rules, and stewards decisions all affect results.


I used to be a bigger fan of F1. I would like F1 more if the drivers were the biggest factor in results. I'm interested in engineering, but the engineering in F1 is fairly pointless. They could now make cars that are much, much faster, but they couldn't race them and the drivers couldn't drive them.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Regardless of what has happened in his career and mistakes he made including leaving Ferrari which I think was the biggest mistake of his life, Alonso will still go down in F1 as one of the best ever.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is blinded by their bias or hate. Period.

I am still somewhat angry at Alonso for losing faith in Ferrari, and he did shoot himself in foot by putting faith in McLaren of all teams back then. But that does not change the quality and capabilities of the man and F1 is not better off without him.

Very well said. I am thinking the same. The man is a unique driver, can cut it with the best of the best. It's only his team choices that have been unfortunate, to say the least.

I too think that his biggest mistake was leaving Ferrari for McLaren. With the emergence of Mercedes as a works team it was fairly evident that McLaren would need to find an engine partner as they wouldn't get the Merc or Ferrari engines. It was somewhat optimistic that Honda would nail it straight away in this period of limited testing and development, but equally no one would have thought it would take them so long to get it right. McLaren also helped by their packaging requests, something for another thread maybe.

I do think that he can be a bit of a nuisance sometimes in a team, he has on occasion thrown the toys out of the pram and he had his fair share of controversy. What can I say, Mediterranean temperament at it's best! But there is absolutely no doubt that he was one of the best drivers we have ever witnessed. What caught my attention was not only his speed and racecraft, but that he was relentless, as close to Schumacher's legendary skill as it can be. You would bet your house to Alonso being there, even in his off day he can deliver something unexpected.

What a driver...

I think it's only a mistake with hindsight, really. People tend to forget that until very recently McLaren was a behemoth of the sport, up there with Ferrari. And I remember people on here trying at the time to claim that Honda had an unfair advantage because they had had a year behind the scenes where they could learn from others' mistakes and come out with all guns blazing. I think Alonso may be forgiven for thinking it was a sound idea, based on the evidence available at the time.

His big mistake for me, from which everything else followed, was Hungary 2007. Without that he may well have secured the 2007 title (let's face it, he was only 1 point off and it's not hard to imagine that the palpable disharmony in the team after that may have had some impact) and possibly 2008, too, given how many mistakes both Massa and Hamilton made that year. After that is anybody's guess but it's probable that neither Vettel or Hamilton would have the title records they do now and the F1 landscape would look very different.

Hungary 2007. Up there with betting on Microsoft Zune over Apple iPod...

Yeah, true. But I always found it a bit of a romantic idea that they would emulate their previous partnership's success. I also think that part of his decision to go back to McLaren was the big big money that he got, partly funded by Honda. It was also reported that McLaren would not siphon any knowledge from their Mercedes engines, it would be a completely new approach with Honda. A much bigger gamble than it sounds.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:07 pm 
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He was great but this will probably just be another bad career move. I wish him the best


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:23 pm 
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I think in a way Hamilton has perhaps affected his career more than once. Obviously there is 2007, but I think the success Hamilton had with Mercedes showed that if you were serious about a WDC you needed a works deal, hence the risk he took with McLaren.

However you look at it, I think his legacy will always be that of a great driver who ultimately failed to fulfill his true potential. As great a loss as that is for him personally, it's also a loss to all who watch F1.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:06 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton lost his turn the previous race when a rim failed in qualifying meaning basically that Alonso got the advantage 3 races on the bounce, fair?


I think so. Hamilton was unlucky he missed his turn but he crashed out in the race anyway so it didn't cost him anything.

Either way it wasn't his decision to make.

There were a lot of things going on that season, did you know for instance that even before the season started Alonso requested that Hamilton be stepped down from his race seat to be replaced by his compatriot Pedro de la Rosa all because Hamilton crashed the car in pre season testing on a damp track, there were things that were happening that you wouldn't call normal or fair and what might make someone perhaps feel a bit paranoid and react accordingly.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
yeah, but wasn't that in retaliation to something Hamilton had done earlier (trying to remember exactly what). Petulant and childish, most certainly, but not sure it could be called mental disintegration


Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst

You're only seeing the tip of the iceberg though and not all the politics behind the scene, why would Hamilton choose to act so irrationally?

Hamilton actually did an interview after the incident and said he was being left out of strategic meetings which involved Alonso, so I would be guessing that without a voice he acted out on the track.

He doesn't like things to be done behind his back, as we know he wasn't happy to walk into the McLaren factory to find Button and all the race engineers poring over his data.

Yes but in all fairness just because he feels hard done by doesn't mean he can take matters into his own hands. What he likes or dislikes is not the point. And remember we're discussing why Alonso was angry and it seems likely that Hamilton taking matters into his own hands and "stealing" Alonso's "perk" is what set him off. Whether Hamilton was right to feel left out or not isn't strictly speaking relevant in that context. It's his actions which started the ball rolling

There were plenty of things going on in the background, one I mentioned I'm sure other things as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
It was his physio Fabrizio Borra, who was rumoured to have been counting with his fingers to show Alonso how long to stay in the box. But Alonso was also having a discussion over the tires with his race engineer Mark Slade, which he claimed was another reason he was late.

That being a nice side story.

What do you mean?

Ron said that he didn't pull the physio out of anger, he denied manhandling him. Ron said that he was trying to get his attention to ask for his help, hence getting his headphones down. He wanted him to accompany him to the parc ferme to calm the two drivers down.

If Alonso was doing nothing wrong then why did he need calming down?

Did you conveniently forget that it all started when Hamilton did not let him through? Alonso was furious and he retaliated. Wrongly in my opinion, two wrongs do not make a right, but I can't see how you believe that Alonso shouldn't be aggrieved when the other driver didn't follow the team's protocol, even if that driver is called Hamilton.

I'm probably losing track with the claim that Alonso did nothing wrong and was merely having a conversation about whether to change tyres or not.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That being a nice side story.

What do you mean?

Ron said that he didn't pull the physio out of anger, he denied manhandling him. Ron said that he was trying to get his attention to ask for his help, hence getting his headphones down. He wanted him to accompany him to the parc ferme to calm the two drivers down.

If Alonso was doing nothing wrong then why did he need calming down?

Did you conveniently forget that it all started when Hamilton did not let him through? Alonso was furious and he retaliated. Wrongly in my opinion, two wrongs do not make a right, but I can't see how you believe that Alonso shouldn't be aggrieved when the other driver didn't follow the team's protocol, even if that driver is called Hamilton.

I'm probably losing track with the claim that Alonso did nothing wrong and was merely having a conversation about whether to change tyres or not.

Not sure what you are confusing here. I do not think anyone said that Alonso is completely blameless in the whole Hungary 2007 saga. But it all started by Hamilton's decision to jump the order and not let Alonso through as per the team's MO. What is so difficult to understand?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:30 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Well as with a lot of things it depends on who you ask.

For fans of Alonso they will tell you he's the best of the current generation based on what they think should have happened, and not what actually happened.

For the neutrals they look at him a different way and admire his talent.

In the previous generation the Iceman was seen as the next best thing (as he gave Schumacher a tough time but Mclaren/Mercedes let him down) though Alonso won the titles then.

In this generation you have Vettel and Hamilton, and I wonder how people feel Alonso is better than this guys, both of this guys have a lot of things above Alonso asides driving talent which all 3 have in spades.

I see people saying Alonso was unlucky et all, but miss the fact that somehow Vettel and Hamilton go to teams and drive them forward, whereas with Alonso the opposite happens it cant be a coincidence.
The same plans Ferrari showed to Vettel, Alonso had knowledge of it but felt Mclaren was better, Mclaren last real push for glory was in '12.

One thing people like Schumacher and Vettel understood quickly in F1 is that beating your team mate is good for a driver in midfield who wants to progress to a front running car, if you want to be a serial winner you work towards having a grid beating car and compete for championships, with Alonso its what he can do with someone else's hardwork.

Hamilton too was stuck in this Alonso kind of mindset of beating team mates until he looked at the numbers Vettel was racking up and realised there is no championship for it outside of your fans saying it.

So for his legacy he will be remembered for what could have been not what actually happened, which has always been par for the course with Alonso.

Hamilton's mindset actually has always been on winning titles rather than beating teammates, 2011 being a prime example of him losing the plot when Vettel set off like a steam train and then out of desperation Hamilton tried to join Red Bull, at that point of the season he was beating Button, Button was never a concern for him.

However I would say Alonso does prioritise beating teammates, has that ever been detrimental to team harmony apart from 2007 I couldn't say but I wonder why words like he can be divisive within teams by some F1 journalists is used, that's quite a strong word to use although the context of why it's said is never fully explained.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:36 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
I think in a way Hamilton has perhaps affected his career more than once. Obviously there is 2007, but I think the success Hamilton had with Mercedes showed that if you were serious about a WDC you needed a works deal, hence the risk he took with McLaren.

However you look at it, I think his legacy will always be that of a great driver who ultimately failed to fulfill his true potential. As great a loss as that is for him personally, it's also a loss to all who watch F1.

Well Ferrari themselves are very much a works team, he's not a loss to F1 if he's only driving in midfield teams, that's just a waste of talent that's better served in Indycars were he can make the difference.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:46 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lojik wrote:
I think in a way Hamilton has perhaps affected his career more than once. Obviously there is 2007, but I think the success Hamilton had with Mercedes showed that if you were serious about a WDC you needed a works deal, hence the risk he took with McLaren.

However you look at it, I think his legacy will always be that of a great driver who ultimately failed to fulfill his true potential. As great a loss as that is for him personally, it's also a loss to all who watch F1.

Well Ferrari themselves are very much a works team, he's not a loss to F1 if he's only driving in midfield teams, that's just a waste of talent that's better served in Indycars were he can make the difference.


Fair point.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Well as with a lot of things it depends on who you ask.

For fans of Alonso they will tell you he's the best of the current generation based on what they think should have happened, and not what actually happened.

For the neutrals they look at him a different way and admire his talent.

In the previous generation the Iceman was seen as the next best thing (as he gave Schumacher a tough time but Mclaren/Mercedes let him down) though Alonso won the titles then.

In this generation you have Vettel and Hamilton, and I wonder how people feel Alonso is better than this guys, both of this guys have a lot of things above Alonso asides driving talent which all 3 have in spades.

I see people saying Alonso was unlucky et all, but miss the fact that somehow Vettel and Hamilton go to teams and drive them forward, whereas with Alonso the opposite happens it cant be a coincidence.
The same plans Ferrari showed to Vettel, Alonso had knowledge of it but felt Mclaren was better, Mclaren last real push for glory was in '12.

One thing people like Schumacher and Vettel understood quickly in F1 is that beating your team mate is good for a driver in midfield who wants to progress to a front running car, if you want to be a serial winner you work towards having a grid beating car and compete for championships, with Alonso its what he can do with someone else's hardwork.

Hamilton too was stuck in this Alonso kind of mindset of beating team mates until he looked at the numbers Vettel was racking up and realised there is no championship for it outside of your fans saying it.

So for his legacy he will be remembered for what could have been not what actually happened, which has always been par for the course with Alonso.

Hamilton's mindset actually has always been on winning titles rather than beating teammates, 2011 being a prime example of him losing the plot when Vettel set off like a steam train and then out of desperation Hamilton tried to join Red Bull, at that point of the season he was beating Button, Button was never a concern for him.

However I would say Alonso does prioritise beating teammates, has that ever been detrimental to team harmony apart from 2007 I couldn't say but I wonder why words like he can be divisive within teams by some F1 journalists is used, that's quite a strong word to use although the context of why it's said is never fully explained.

I don't see that much difference between them in that respect. Whenever it looked like Hamilton was being beaten by a team mate he'd always let the world know it was down to circumstance. Hence Twittergate. I think both are focused on titles but the first person you have to beat on your way there is your team mate. Alonso is more obviously into self promotion not least because he's spent a lot of time in the positions that don't get a lot of recognition


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:54 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

Read my post above to understand what really happened.

Basically Hamilton didn't participate in the final part of qualifyings the race before Hungary(Germany) because of a rim failure that caused a huge crash.
So Alonso had the lowest amount of fuel and started the race with the best strategy.

The race after that, Hungary, Alonso wanted the same advantage but Hamilton said no because he didn't do the previous Q3.

But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst

You're only seeing the tip of the iceberg though and not all the politics behind the scene, why would Hamilton choose to act so irrationally?

Hamilton actually did an interview after the incident and said he was being left out of strategic meetings which involved Alonso, so I would be guessing that without a voice he acted out on the track.

He doesn't like things to be done behind his back, as we know he wasn't happy to walk into the McLaren factory to find Button and all the race engineers poring over his data.

Yes but in all fairness just because he feels hard done by doesn't mean he can take matters into his own hands. What he likes or dislikes is not the point. And remember we're discussing why Alonso was angry and it seems likely that Hamilton taking matters into his own hands and "stealing" Alonso's "perk" is what set him off. Whether Hamilton was right to feel left out or not isn't strictly speaking relevant in that context. It's his actions which started the ball rolling

There were plenty of things going on in the background, one I mentioned I'm sure other things as well.

Sure there were. But are you trying to pretend Alonso's action had nothing to do with Hamilton's? It's relevant at least


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:56 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Well as with a lot of things it depends on who you ask.

For fans of Alonso they will tell you he's the best of the current generation based on what they think should have happened, and not what actually happened.

For the neutrals they look at him a different way and admire his talent.

In the previous generation the Iceman was seen as the next best thing (as he gave Schumacher a tough time but Mclaren/Mercedes let him down) though Alonso won the titles then.

In this generation you have Vettel and Hamilton, and I wonder how people feel Alonso is better than this guys, both of this guys have a lot of things above Alonso asides driving talent which all 3 have in spades.

I see people saying Alonso was unlucky et all, but miss the fact that somehow Vettel and Hamilton go to teams and drive them forward, whereas with Alonso the opposite happens it cant be a coincidence.
The same plans Ferrari showed to Vettel, Alonso had knowledge of it but felt Mclaren was better, Mclaren last real push for glory was in '12.

One thing people like Schumacher and Vettel understood quickly in F1 is that beating your team mate is good for a driver in midfield who wants to progress to a front running car, if you want to be a serial winner you work towards having a grid beating car and compete for championships, with Alonso its what he can do with someone else's hardwork.

Hamilton too was stuck in this Alonso kind of mindset of beating team mates until he looked at the numbers Vettel was racking up and realised there is no championship for it outside of your fans saying it.

So for his legacy he will be remembered for what could have been not what actually happened, which has always been par for the course with Alonso.

Hamilton's mindset actually has always been on winning titles rather than beating teammates, 2011 being a prime example of him losing the plot when Vettel set off like a steam train and then out of desperation Hamilton tried to join Red Bull, at that point of the season he was beating Button, Button was never a concern for him.

However I would say Alonso does prioritise beating teammates, has that ever been detrimental to team harmony apart from 2007 I couldn't say but I wonder why words like he can be divisive within teams by some F1 journalists is used, that's quite a strong word to use although the context of why it's said is never fully explained.


This is absurd, everyone wants to beat their team mates, they are your yard stick. It can't be any more straight forward than that, with the exception of being a Nr 2 driver of course. Plus, if you want to win the title, surely you'll have to beat your team mate when you are in a top team...

It sounds more like people trying to excuse Lewis for 2011. He had a horrible season by his standards, so many mistakes, if I remember correctly he was in the stewards office more often than the stewards themselves at some point!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:01 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
What do you mean?

Ron said that he didn't pull the physio out of anger, he denied manhandling him. Ron said that he was trying to get his attention to ask for his help, hence getting his headphones down. He wanted him to accompany him to the parc ferme to calm the two drivers down.

If Alonso was doing nothing wrong then why did he need calming down?

Did you conveniently forget that it all started when Hamilton did not let him through? Alonso was furious and he retaliated. Wrongly in my opinion, two wrongs do not make a right, but I can't see how you believe that Alonso shouldn't be aggrieved when the other driver didn't follow the team's protocol, even if that driver is called Hamilton.

I'm probably losing track with the claim that Alonso did nothing wrong and was merely having a conversation about whether to change tyres or not.

Not sure what you are confusing here. I do not think anyone said that Alonso is completely blameless in the whole Hungary 2007 saga. But it all started by Hamilton's decision to jump the order and not let Alonso through as per the team's MO. What is so difficult to understand?

I don't think things were that simplistic, on the face of it Hamilton seems to be unreasonable whilst in the background a certain driver was playing politics about driver preferentiality which Hamilton alluded to in a interview a day after the event.

This is backed up the blackmail story were Hamilton had to be made the #2 driver, did all this make Hamilton paranoid to the point were he ignored team orders, I would say so.

You know a similar thing happened in qualifying this season with Ricciardo were he ignored team protocol in running order, straight away I thought why is Ricciardo being so paranoid and it reminded me of Hungary 2007, weeks later he leaves the team.

It showed perhaps that he felt the team were favouring Verstappen, likewise with Hamilton he felt the team was wavering under the pressure from Alonso which he explained in his interview were he said that strategies were discussed in meetings that included Alonso but not him.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If Alonso was doing nothing wrong then why did he need calming down?

Did you conveniently forget that it all started when Hamilton did not let him through? Alonso was furious and he retaliated. Wrongly in my opinion, two wrongs do not make a right, but I can't see how you believe that Alonso shouldn't be aggrieved when the other driver didn't follow the team's protocol, even if that driver is called Hamilton.

I'm probably losing track with the claim that Alonso did nothing wrong and was merely having a conversation about whether to change tyres or not.

Not sure what you are confusing here. I do not think anyone said that Alonso is completely blameless in the whole Hungary 2007 saga. But it all started by Hamilton's decision to jump the order and not let Alonso through as per the team's MO. What is so difficult to understand?

I don't think things were that simplistic, on the face of it Hamilton seems to be unreasonable whilst in the background a certain driver was playing politics about driver preferentiality which Hamilton alluded to in a interview a day after the event.

This is backed up the blackmail story were Hamilton had to be made the #2 driver, did all this make Hamilton paranoid to the point were he ignored team orders, I would say so.

You know a similar thing happened in qualifying this season with Ricciardo were he ignored team protocol in running order, straight away I thought why is Ricciardo being so paranoid and it reminded me of Hungary 2007, weeks later he leaves the team.

It showed perhaps that he felt the team were favouring Verstappen, likewise with Hamilton he felt the team was wavering under the pressure from Alonso which he explained in his interview were he said that strategies were discussed in meetings that included Alonso but not him.

The blackmail story happened after Hamilton had ignored the team. You got that one back to front.

It seems you are once again ignoring the point being made in an effort to absolve Hamilton of any part in the saga. Whether you believe he was justified or not is irrelevant. The fact he did it contributed to Alonso's own actions. Alonso didn't get upset for no reason


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Well as with a lot of things it depends on who you ask.

For fans of Alonso they will tell you he's the best of the current generation based on what they think should have happened, and not what actually happened.

For the neutrals they look at him a different way and admire his talent.

In the previous generation the Iceman was seen as the next best thing (as he gave Schumacher a tough time but Mclaren/Mercedes let him down) though Alonso won the titles then.

In this generation you have Vettel and Hamilton, and I wonder how people feel Alonso is better than this guys, both of this guys have a lot of things above Alonso asides driving talent which all 3 have in spades.

I see people saying Alonso was unlucky et all, but miss the fact that somehow Vettel and Hamilton go to teams and drive them forward, whereas with Alonso the opposite happens it cant be a coincidence.
The same plans Ferrari showed to Vettel, Alonso had knowledge of it but felt Mclaren was better, Mclaren last real push for glory was in '12.

One thing people like Schumacher and Vettel understood quickly in F1 is that beating your team mate is good for a driver in midfield who wants to progress to a front running car, if you want to be a serial winner you work towards having a grid beating car and compete for championships, with Alonso its what he can do with someone else's hardwork.

Hamilton too was stuck in this Alonso kind of mindset of beating team mates until he looked at the numbers Vettel was racking up and realised there is no championship for it outside of your fans saying it.

So for his legacy he will be remembered for what could have been not what actually happened, which has always been par for the course with Alonso.

Hamilton's mindset actually has always been on winning titles rather than beating teammates, 2011 being a prime example of him losing the plot when Vettel set off like a steam train and then out of desperation Hamilton tried to join Red Bull, at that point of the season he was beating Button, Button was never a concern for him.

However I would say Alonso does prioritise beating teammates, has that ever been detrimental to team harmony apart from 2007 I couldn't say but I wonder why words like he can be divisive within teams by some F1 journalists is used, that's quite a strong word to use although the context of why it's said is never fully explained.

I don't see that much difference between them in that respect. Whenever it looked like Hamilton was being beaten by a team mate he'd always let the world know it was down to circumstance. Hence Twittergate. I think both are focused on titles but the first person you have to beat on your way there is your team mate. Alonso is more obviously into self promotion not least because he's spent a lot of time in the positions that don't get a lot of recognition

Hamilton was in contention for the title unlike Button, it was an abject failure of the team to fully back his title campaign that lead to him leaving the team.

Remember Canada 2011 when Hamilton tried to pass Button but ended up squeezed into the wall and out of the race, Button won the race and Hamilton was seen clapping Button's win and was pleased for him, were was the excuse from Hamilton so I believe you are wrong.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:19 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
But that was never Hamilton's call to make. He acted independently IIRC and that is what set off the chain of evenst

You're only seeing the tip of the iceberg though and not all the politics behind the scene, why would Hamilton choose to act so irrationally?

Hamilton actually did an interview after the incident and said he was being left out of strategic meetings which involved Alonso, so I would be guessing that without a voice he acted out on the track.

He doesn't like things to be done behind his back, as we know he wasn't happy to walk into the McLaren factory to find Button and all the race engineers poring over his data.

Yes but in all fairness just because he feels hard done by doesn't mean he can take matters into his own hands. What he likes or dislikes is not the point. And remember we're discussing why Alonso was angry and it seems likely that Hamilton taking matters into his own hands and "stealing" Alonso's "perk" is what set him off. Whether Hamilton was right to feel left out or not isn't strictly speaking relevant in that context. It's his actions which started the ball rolling

There were plenty of things going on in the background, one I mentioned I'm sure other things as well.

Sure there were. But are you trying to pretend Alonso's action had nothing to do with Hamilton's? It's relevant at least

When did I pretend otherwise?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Well as with a lot of things it depends on who you ask.

For fans of Alonso they will tell you he's the best of the current generation based on what they think should have happened, and not what actually happened.

For the neutrals they look at him a different way and admire his talent.

In the previous generation the Iceman was seen as the next best thing (as he gave Schumacher a tough time but Mclaren/Mercedes let him down) though Alonso won the titles then.

In this generation you have Vettel and Hamilton, and I wonder how people feel Alonso is better than this guys, both of this guys have a lot of things above Alonso asides driving talent which all 3 have in spades.

I see people saying Alonso was unlucky et all, but miss the fact that somehow Vettel and Hamilton go to teams and drive them forward, whereas with Alonso the opposite happens it cant be a coincidence.
The same plans Ferrari showed to Vettel, Alonso had knowledge of it but felt Mclaren was better, Mclaren last real push for glory was in '12.

One thing people like Schumacher and Vettel understood quickly in F1 is that beating your team mate is good for a driver in midfield who wants to progress to a front running car, if you want to be a serial winner you work towards having a grid beating car and compete for championships, with Alonso its what he can do with someone else's hardwork.

Hamilton too was stuck in this Alonso kind of mindset of beating team mates until he looked at the numbers Vettel was racking up and realised there is no championship for it outside of your fans saying it.

So for his legacy he will be remembered for what could have been not what actually happened, which has always been par for the course with Alonso.

Hamilton's mindset actually has always been on winning titles rather than beating teammates, 2011 being a prime example of him losing the plot when Vettel set off like a steam train and then out of desperation Hamilton tried to join Red Bull, at that point of the season he was beating Button, Button was never a concern for him.

However I would say Alonso does prioritise beating teammates, has that ever been detrimental to team harmony apart from 2007 I couldn't say but I wonder why words like he can be divisive within teams by some F1 journalists is used, that's quite a strong word to use although the context of why it's said is never fully explained.

I don't see that much difference between them in that respect. Whenever it looked like Hamilton was being beaten by a team mate he'd always let the world know it was down to circumstance. Hence Twittergate. I think both are focused on titles but the first person you have to beat on your way there is your team mate. Alonso is more obviously into self promotion not least because he's spent a lot of time in the positions that don't get a lot of recognition

Hamilton was in contention for the title unlike Button, it was an abject failure of the team to fully back his title campaign that lead to him leaving the team.

Remember Canada 2011 when Hamilton tried to pass Button but ended up squeezed into the wall and out of the race, Button won the race and Hamilton was seen clapping Button's win and was pleased for him, were was the excuse from Hamilton so I believe you are wrong.

and Alonso's never praised his team mate? er, OK

Like I said, no real difference


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:22 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Did you conveniently forget that it all started when Hamilton did not let him through? Alonso was furious and he retaliated. Wrongly in my opinion, two wrongs do not make a right, but I can't see how you believe that Alonso shouldn't be aggrieved when the other driver didn't follow the team's protocol, even if that driver is called Hamilton.

I'm probably losing track with the claim that Alonso did nothing wrong and was merely having a conversation about whether to change tyres or not.

Not sure what you are confusing here. I do not think anyone said that Alonso is completely blameless in the whole Hungary 2007 saga. But it all started by Hamilton's decision to jump the order and not let Alonso through as per the team's MO. What is so difficult to understand?

I don't think things were that simplistic, on the face of it Hamilton seems to be unreasonable whilst in the background a certain driver was playing politics about driver preferentiality which Hamilton alluded to in a interview a day after the event.

This is backed up the blackmail story were Hamilton had to be made the #2 driver, did all this make Hamilton paranoid to the point were he ignored team orders, I would say so.

You know a similar thing happened in qualifying this season with Ricciardo were he ignored team protocol in running order, straight away I thought why is Ricciardo being so paranoid and it reminded me of Hungary 2007, weeks later he leaves the team.

It showed perhaps that he felt the team were favouring Verstappen, likewise with Hamilton he felt the team was wavering under the pressure from Alonso which he explained in his interview were he said that strategies were discussed in meetings that included Alonso but not him.

The blackmail story happened after Hamilton had ignored the team. You got that one back to front.

It seems you are once again ignoring the point being made in an effort to absolve Hamilton of any part in the saga. Whether you believe he was justified or not is irrelevant. The fact he did it contributed to Alonso's own actions. Alonso didn't get upset for no reason

You put it more elegant that myself, thank you


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