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Sainz Jr's McLaren teammate 2019?
Vandoorne 45%  45%  [ 19 ]
Norris 33%  33%  [ 14 ]
Ocon 14%  14%  [ 6 ]
Perez 5%  5%  [ 2 ]
Albon 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Grosjean 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Other (plus comment below) 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 42
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:04 pm 
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Why not try and go after Perez. I think that would make a great pairing with Carlos. Loan Norris out until 2021 to get some experience.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:38 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
How about they get Massa out of retirement ;)

He's experienced and IMP was about matched with Sainz in his last season. They at least would probably pay him the money he wanted compared to Williams. Unless Massa certainly doesn't want to race any more, I would't say this is 100% impossible. I think he'd still be a fair bit better than Vandoorne.


You know, kidding aside, something like that would probably be good for them.

RK must have a question mark over him, not only his driving capability, but his 'assistance' at Williams otherwise a shoe in.

Button is not going to come back full stop. There are a couple of FE guys may possibly fit, but they have been driving FE cars, so dont know if they could help soon enough. Nico? that has to be laughable. The only one I can bring to mind, and he has a license as he drove for Williams within the time frame, is Di Resta. Not sure how his development and feedback skills are, but he is a solid if not fast driver. Another who has a license and reportedly had very good feedback skills is Will Stevens, but I don't think they would tempt him back to F1 at the level they are.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:46 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
I'll have pity on both drivers that would drive McLaren next year. But history has shown us that when Alonso leaved a team, that specific team would progress once again. Sainz & Vandoorne for me.

I understand where you’re coming from but to be fair to Alonso, he didn’t demand anything while at Renault the first or 2nd time around and since his return to McLaren he’s been doing one thing and one thing only which is try to squeeze every last ounce out of his cars and his team and has been helpful with Vandoorne and got along great with Button.

The only times he was a diva was at McLaren the first time around and then with Ferrari in how he demanded to get priority over his 2 teammates, one of which didn’t much care and got on with his driving how he always has... however the heck he wants according to how the team listen to and consider his input.

I don’t like branding anyone as one thing that defines them as a whole when that’s not the case. It’s unfair to them and the Internet is such that some folks read something and adopt it as their own belief and then reiterate it and it grows until it comes to be believed or perceived as fact.

If McLaren do improve it will be a progression that has evolved from the engineering side and some of it may indeed stem from Alonso’s input.


Once a Diva always a Diva. I dont think your assesment is correct when you try to portray him as a team player. This second stint at McLaren has been a disaster, from the engineering side, engine side and as we have come to learn even chassis side. You can not say that the team will get better because of his lasting input, when now, after a few seasons of his input the team is still lacking. Where is the progression now? You can divide "developement" in as many areas as you want, but the driver, even in the lowest percentage has to be in that equation, I think this is where he lacks. Alonso is not a Team Player he will always look for an advatage, I am not saying is wrong, they all do, but to call him a team player!! A team player would have done things differently. He was instrumental in pushing Honda out to force his way, even when Honda was not the only problem.

He is a great driver, resourceful, fast, he has the talent. But in my view, this super ability that he has to drive a bad car fast, as some of you say, does not help him or the team, in making that bad car any better, placing a greater burden on the engineers. This is why I think, if they give Stoffel the oportunity to stay one more year, you will see a marked improvement, Sainz will provide a fresh view on things, they will help MCLaren improve and a year from now we will be all talking about how teams improve when Alonso leaves and how unlucky the dude is..........when maybe he was part of the problem.

Dont get me wrong, Fernando is a great talent, but I just dont buy this best ever narrative, top 10 maybe, not top 5. Good for him that he will race in other series, but his time in F1 is done.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:16 pm 
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I am really hoping that Vandoorne is out. Alonso is good, but come on. By now there should have been some hint that Vandoorne is capable of at least matching his teammate. Every dog has its day but Vandoorne doesn't look like he's even had half an hour where he might outshine Alonso. And as well as not seeming to have the speed, Vandoorne just comes across as a bit dull. I watch the sport to be entertained and he's not doing it for me on any level.

I'd like to see Norris in the 2nd seat or maybe Perez. I don't think they need to retain Vandoorne just so they can compare the 2018 and 2019 cars. They had the same drivers last year and this year and look how that failed to help develop the car. If not Norris then Checo would be my other choice. I think it's more likely that Ocon will stay at FI (or whatever they are called next year / next week).

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:30 pm 
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klevispin wrote:
I am really hoping that Vandoorne is out. Alonso is good, but come on. By now there should have been some hint that Vandoorne is capable of at least matching his teammate. Every dog has its day but Vandoorne doesn't look like he's even had half an hour where he might outshine Alonso. And as well as not seeming to have the speed, Vandoorne just comes across as a bit dull. I watch the sport to be entertained and he's not doing it for me on any level.

I'd like to see Norris in the 2nd seat or maybe Perez. I don't think they need to retain Vandoorne just so they can compare the 2018 and 2019 cars. They had the same drivers last year and this year and look how that failed to help develop the car. If not Norris then Checo would be my other choice. I think it's more likely that Ocon will stay at FI (or whatever they are called next year / next week).


If your team mates as good as Alonso then you have almost no chance of matching him. Look at Fissichella, Massa and Raikkonen. All good drivers, race winners with over 200 grand prix to their name. None of them ever looked like outshining Alonso.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:59 pm 
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klevispin wrote:
I am really hoping that Vandoorne is out. Alonso is good, but come on. By now there should have been some hint that Vandoorne is capable of at least matching his teammate. Every dog has its day but Vandoorne doesn't look like he's even had half an hour where he might outshine Alonso. And as well as not seeming to have the speed, Vandoorne just comes across as a bit dull. I watch the sport to be entertained and he's not doing it for me on any level.

I'd like to see Norris in the 2nd seat or maybe Perez. I don't think they need to retain Vandoorne just so they can compare the 2018 and 2019 cars. They had the same drivers last year and this year and look how that failed to help develop the car. If not Norris then Checo would be my other choice. I think it's more likely that Ocon will stay at FI (or whatever they are called next year / next week).


I am not a Vandoorne fan nor am I rooting for him, would prefer Lando in on a personal scale, but TBH, we have no idea what went on in the team. I find it surprising that someone with a record like his in the lower series just stalls so consistently.

It could just be intimidation on the big stage, the car did not suit his style or what ever, but it does not ring true.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:52 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
klevispin wrote:
I am really hoping that Vandoorne is out. Alonso is good, but come on. By now there should have been some hint that Vandoorne is capable of at least matching his teammate. Every dog has its day but Vandoorne doesn't look like he's even had half an hour where he might outshine Alonso. And as well as not seeming to have the speed, Vandoorne just comes across as a bit dull. I watch the sport to be entertained and he's not doing it for me on any level.

I'd like to see Norris in the 2nd seat or maybe Perez. I don't think they need to retain Vandoorne just so they can compare the 2018 and 2019 cars. They had the same drivers last year and this year and look how that failed to help develop the car. If not Norris then Checo would be my other choice. I think it's more likely that Ocon will stay at FI (or whatever they are called next year / next week).


If your team mates as good as Alonso then you have almost no chance of matching him. Look at Fissichella, Massa and Raikkonen. All good drivers, race winners with over 200 grand prix to their name. None of them ever looked like outshining Alonso.


I couldn't imagine how hard it is to go up against Alonso in your first year and be expected to do well. Fernando rates him pretty highly, so that's got to mean something.

However I suppose what has been confirmed is that out-of-the-box Vandoorne isn't a Hamilton - and unfortunately that's the level of performance that's expected from highly rated juniors these days.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren drivers 2019
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:12 am 
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shay550 wrote:
First time since 2006 that Mclaren won't have a world champion in the car. Speaks volumes about how low they have dropped. They couldn't even attract Daniel Ricciardo... smh

Maybe they could convince Hakkinen to end his sabbatical

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:22 am 
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mas wrote:
I think Vandoorne has had a good chance to show what he has got and has confirmed to me that he is Button level which is still very good but not leading edge. I would like to see Norris in the seat to see how he compares against Sainz otherwise Ocon. If Norris does not get an F1 seat I would like to see him in Indy with Alonso who rates him very highly.

Vandoorne Button level? Button's qualifying record vs Alonso wasn't 0 - 12 at this point in the season. And his races were not very close to this either. I don't think Vandoorne's seasons have been anywhere close to any of Button's last few at McLaren.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:55 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mas wrote:
I think Vandoorne has had a good chance to show what he has got and has confirmed to me that he is Button level which is still very good but not leading edge. I would like to see Norris in the seat to see how he compares against Sainz otherwise Ocon. If Norris does not get an F1 seat I would like to see him in Indy with Alonso who rates him very highly.

Vandoorne Button level? Button's qualifying record vs Alonso wasn't 0 - 12 at this point in the season. And his races were not very close to this either. I don't think Vandoorne's seasons have been anywhere close to any of Button's last few at McLaren.


It depends what your judging on. Vandoorne is clearly not as good as Button was against Alonso. But if you compare both of them at the same point in their careers.... Button got smashed to bits by Ralf Schumacher and Fissichella in his first two seasons.

People expect too much of rookies. I say it over and over again but the only driver on the grid to outscore a non rookie team mate in his debut season is Bottas. It almost never happens.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:13 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mas wrote:
I think Vandoorne has had a good chance to show what he has got and has confirmed to me that he is Button level which is still very good but not leading edge. I would like to see Norris in the seat to see how he compares against Sainz otherwise Ocon. If Norris does not get an F1 seat I would like to see him in Indy with Alonso who rates him very highly.

Vandoorne Button level? Button's qualifying record vs Alonso wasn't 0 - 12 at this point in the season. And his races were not very close to this either. I don't think Vandoorne's seasons have been anywhere close to any of Button's last few at McLaren.


Button is so under rated. To be honest he looked close to Alonso until it was decided he wouldn’t return for another year. The only teammate I can remember who actually overtook Alonso on track (Monza 2016 I believe). Vandoorne has not shown anything close to that level so far.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:37 am 
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Many of us are ruling out Ocon but he's surely in the mix because it's very likely Perez will be staying with Force India. He has said it's just days left for his automatic extension at FI. This probably would push Ocon closer to the McLaren seat.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren drivers 2019
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:23 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
shay550 wrote:
First time since 2006 that Mclaren won't have a world champion in the car. Speaks volumes about how low they have dropped. They couldn't even attract Daniel Ricciardo... smh

Maybe they could convince Hakkinen to end his sabbatical


His superlicence has expired now 8O


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:03 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mas wrote:
I think Vandoorne has had a good chance to show what he has got and has confirmed to me that he is Button level which is still very good but not leading edge. I would like to see Norris in the seat to see how he compares against Sainz otherwise Ocon. If Norris does not get an F1 seat I would like to see him in Indy with Alonso who rates him very highly.

Vandoorne Button level? Button's qualifying record vs Alonso wasn't 0 - 12 at this point in the season. And his races were not very close to this either. I don't think Vandoorne's seasons have been anywhere close to any of Button's last few at McLaren.


It depends what your judging on. Vandoorne is clearly not as good as Button was against Alonso. But if you compare both of them at the same point in their careers.... Button got smashed to bits by Ralf Schumacher and Fissichella in his first two seasons.

People expect too much of rookies. I say it over and over again but the only driver on the grid to outscore a non rookie team mate in his debut season is Bottas. It almost never happens.

I disagree, the really talented drivers show their ability in F1 right away. Sure they might make a few mistakes or lack a bit of consistency over the season, but you see the speed and occasional flashes of brilliance. We saw it with Hamilton and Vettel, we saw it with Alonso although you had to look a little harder because he was driving a Minardi, and we saw it with Verstappen. And we're seeing it with Leclerc this season. Vandoorne on the other hand, has done nothing of note in one and a half seasons apart from a single strong drive in Sepang last year.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:36 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
How about they get Massa out of retirement ;)

He's experienced and IMP was about matched with Sainz in his last season. They at least would probably pay him the money he wanted compared to Williams. Unless Massa certainly doesn't want to race any more, I would't say this is 100% impossible. I think he'd still be a fair bit better than Vandoorne.

Did you watch some of Massa's seasons against Alonso?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:37 am 
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Toby. wrote:
Unlikely, I admit, but what about Gasly? Renault might like a French driver in one of their teams.

Not sure Red Bull would let him slip away that easily though.

Why would Gasly rather drive for McLaren than Red Bull?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:40 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
I think it's concerning for Vandoorne that Sainz has been announced but not him.

If I had to guess I'd say they're waiting to see how he performs against Sainz and whether Norris wins the F2 title.

Sainz is not joining McLaren until next year.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:47 am 
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Rumour has it that Mercedes are talking to McLaren about having Estaban Ocon on loan there, I can't remember where I've read this but I have.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:09 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mas wrote:
I think Vandoorne has had a good chance to show what he has got and has confirmed to me that he is Button level which is still very good but not leading edge. I would like to see Norris in the seat to see how he compares against Sainz otherwise Ocon. If Norris does not get an F1 seat I would like to see him in Indy with Alonso who rates him very highly.

Vandoorne Button level? Button's qualifying record vs Alonso wasn't 0 - 12 at this point in the season. And his races were not very close to this either. I don't think Vandoorne's seasons have been anywhere close to any of Button's last few at McLaren.


It depends what your judging on. Vandoorne is clearly not as good as Button was against Alonso. But if you compare both of them at the same point in their careers.... Button got smashed to bits by Ralf Schumacher and Fissichella in his first two seasons.
.


In fairness to Button, he was driving a very bad car at the time that did not suite him, plus Flavio hated Button at that time and favoured Fisichella and only supported one driver during those Renault days.. Schumacher, Alonso and Fisichella. Those that were team mates were bumped to the scrap heap!!... Herbert, Button and Brundle..


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:11 am 
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Noni wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mas wrote:
I think Vandoorne has had a good chance to show what he has got and has confirmed to me that he is Button level which is still very good but not leading edge. I would like to see Norris in the seat to see how he compares against Sainz otherwise Ocon. If Norris does not get an F1 seat I would like to see him in Indy with Alonso who rates him very highly.

Vandoorne Button level? Button's qualifying record vs Alonso wasn't 0 - 12 at this point in the season. And his races were not very close to this either. I don't think Vandoorne's seasons have been anywhere close to any of Button's last few at McLaren.


It depends what your judging on. Vandoorne is clearly not as good as Button was against Alonso. But if you compare both of them at the same point in their careers.... Button got smashed to bits by Ralf Schumacher and Fissichella in his first two seasons.
.


In fairness to Button, he was driving a very bad car at the time that did not suite him..

Not in his rookie season, the Williams was quite a good car.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:55 am 
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paulsf1fix wrote:
Rumour has it that Mercedes are talking to McLaren about having Estaban Ocon on loan there, I can't remember where I've read this but I have.


I've read that too. The reason being quite ridiculous. They want to see how Ocon can perform against all the odds at a struggling team!

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:04 am 
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paulsf1fix wrote:
Rumour has it that Mercedes are talking to McLaren about having Estaban Ocon on loan there, I can't remember where I've read this but I have.

I hope not. I've got no problem with Ocon as a driver, but McLaren should be above taking a loan driver from someone else. He could get yanked at any time if Mercedes decide they do want him, so he'd never really be a Macca driver.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:50 am 
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Exediron wrote:
paulsf1fix wrote:
Rumour has it that Mercedes are talking to McLaren about having Estaban Ocon on loan there, I can't remember where I've read this but I have.

I hope not. I've got no problem with Ocon as a driver, but McLaren should be above taking a loan driver from someone else. He could get yanked at any time if Mercedes decide they do want him, so he'd never really be a Macca driver.


Plus why help Mercedes out of a jam with a driver they'll expect to give way to the Mercs on track. Don't train up other peoples drivers when you've got your own in F2 doing more than fine.

Sainz/Norris or Sainz/Vandoorne are both fine for where they're going to be next year at least I think. They've all but admitted they're re-building for 2021 and hopefully a favourable rule set engine and budget wise.

Give Merc the headache of what to do with Russell and Ocon, don't do them a favour unless they're throwing in an engine at least.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:12 am 
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Exediron wrote:
paulsf1fix wrote:
Rumour has it that Mercedes are talking to McLaren about having Estaban Ocon on loan there, I can't remember where I've read this but I have.

I hope not. I've got no problem with Ocon as a driver, but McLaren should be above taking a loan driver from someone else. He could get yanked at any time if Mercedes decide they do want him, so he'd never really be a Macca driver.

Sadly I don't think McLaren are "above" anything any more. They are a midfield team now.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:38 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
I think it's concerning for Vandoorne that Sainz has been announced but not him.

If I had to guess I'd say they're waiting to see how he performs against Sainz and whether Norris wins the F2 title.

Sainz is not joining McLaren until next year.

Yeah I was talking about next year but I didn't consider what would happen if Norris won F2 this year, I guess that would make my initial post irrelevant as in that case Vandoorne may not even get the chance to prove himself against Sainz at all.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:14 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
paulsf1fix wrote:
Rumour has it that Mercedes are talking to McLaren about having Estaban Ocon on loan there, I can't remember where I've read this but I have.

I hope not. I've got no problem with Ocon as a driver, but McLaren should be above taking a loan driver from someone else. He could get yanked at any time if Mercedes decide they do want him, so he'd never really be a Macca driver.


Plus why help Mercedes out of a jam with a driver they'll expect to give way to the Mercs on track. Don't train up other peoples drivers when you've got your own in F2 doing more than fine.

Sainz/Norris or Sainz/Vandoorne are both fine for where they're going to be next year at least I think. They've all but admitted they're re-building for 2021 and hopefully a favourable rule set engine and budget wise.

Give Merc the headache of what to do with Russell and Ocon, don't do them a favour unless they're throwing in an engine at least.

not that I believe it but maybe some technical assistance behind the scenes?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:33 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Give Merc the headache of what to do with Russell and Ocon, don't do them a favour unless they're throwing in an engine at least.

Yep :thumbup:

We'll take him if you give us some engines. Let's get harmonious before 2021 rolls around :D

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:52 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Give Merc the headache of what to do with Russell and Ocon, don't do them a favour unless they're throwing in an engine at least.

Yep :thumbup:

We'll take him if you give us some engines. Let's get harmonious before 2021 rolls around :D

By which time Mercedes will have decided that their little marketing exercise has served its purpose and run its course and Liberty Media will have re-distributed the TV revenue to give them less money, so Mercedes will decide to scale back their involvement.

Meanwhile Renault's investment will start to bear fruit and they'll build a world-beating engine for the new regulations.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:56 am 
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PRFAN wrote:
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UnlikeUday wrote:
I'll have pity on both drivers that would drive McLaren next year. But history has shown us that when Alonso leaved a team, that specific team would progress once again. Sainz & Vandoorne for me.

I understand where you’re coming from but to be fair to Alonso, he didn’t demand anything while at Renault the first or 2nd time around and since his return to McLaren he’s been doing one thing and one thing only which is try to squeeze every last ounce out of his cars and his team and has been helpful with Vandoorne and got along great with Button.

The only times he was a diva was at McLaren the first time around and then with Ferrari in how he demanded to get priority over his 2 teammates, one of which didn’t much care and got on with his driving how he always has... however the heck he wants according to how the team listen to and consider his input.

I don’t like branding anyone as one thing that defines them as a whole when that’s not the case. It’s unfair to them and the Internet is such that some folks read something and adopt it as their own belief and then reiterate it and it grows until it comes to be believed or perceived as fact.

If McLaren do improve it will be a progression that has evolved from the engineering side and some of it may indeed stem from Alonso’s input.


Once a Diva always a Diva. I dont think your assesment is correct when you try to portray him as a team player. This second stint at McLaren has been a disaster, from the engineering side, engine side and as we have come to learn even chassis side. You can not say that the team will get better because of his lasting input, when now, after a few seasons of his input the team is still lacking. Where is the progression now? You can divide "developement" in as many areas as you want, but the driver, even in the lowest percentage has to be in that equation, I think this is where he lacks. Alonso is not a Team Player he will always look for an advatage, I am not saying is wrong, they all do, but to call him a team player!! A team player would have done things differently. He was instrumental in pushing Honda out to force his way, even when Honda was not the only problem.

He is a great driver, resourceful, fast, he has the talent. But in my view, this super ability that he has to drive a bad car fast, as some of you say, does not help him or the team, in making that bad car any better, placing a greater burden on the engineers. This is why I think, if they give Stoffel the oportunity to stay one more year, you will see a marked improvement, Sainz will provide a fresh view on things, they will help MCLaren improve and a year from now we will be all talking about how teams improve when Alonso leaves and how unlucky the dude is..........when maybe he was part of the problem.

Dont get me wrong, Fernando is a great talent, but I just dont buy this best ever narrative, top 10 maybe, not top 5. Good for him that he will race in other series, but his time in F1 is done.

I disagree with most of what you wrote except the last statement.

However, the BIB is purely speculation on your part and in no way fact. No one was happy with Honda but McLaren publicly scorning them only strained the relationship and McLaren also did not want to compromise on their size 0 philosophy which is STILL a bit of an issue in that it does not allow the Renault literal breathing room and have suffered DNF’s because of it.

Vettel is near identical in his approach to integrating within a team yet I don’t hear anyone calling him a Diva or saying he’d a disruptive or negative influence on his teams’ overall Performance or progression. The difference currently is that Kimi does give a flying you know what WHAT Cettrl or anyone thinks and gets on with his own program on his terms and mind tricks and nonsense don’t get under his skin like many others. And in that regard I’ll say Ricciardo is similar in that he’s not interested in being toyed with and basically told Red Bull screw you guys and your golden boy, I’m not gonna be anyone’s doormat... Mamba Out!!!

_________________
HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:57 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
I'll have pity on both drivers that would drive McLaren next year. But history has shown us that when Alonso leaved a team, that specific team would progress once again. Sainz & Vandoorne for me.

I understand where you’re coming from but to be fair to Alonso, he didn’t demand anything while at Renault the first or 2nd time around and since his return to McLaren he’s been doing one thing and one thing only which is try to squeeze every last ounce out of his cars and his team and has been helpful with Vandoorne and got along great with Button.

The only times he was a diva was at McLaren the first time around and then with Ferrari in how he demanded to get priority over his 2 teammates, one of which didn’t much care and got on with his driving how he always has... however the heck he wants according to how the team listen to and consider his input.

I don’t like branding anyone as one thing that defines them as a whole when that’s not the case. It’s unfair to them and the Internet is such that some folks read something and adopt it as their own belief and then reiterate it and it grows until it comes to be believed or perceived as fact.

If McLaren do improve it will be a progression that has evolved from the engineering side and some of it may indeed stem from Alonso’s input.


Once a Diva always a Diva. I dont think your assesment is correct when you try to portray him as a team player. This second stint at McLaren has been a disaster, from the engineering side, engine side and as we have come to learn even chassis side. You can not say that the team will get better because of his lasting input, when now, after a few seasons of his input the team is still lacking. Where is the progression now? You can divide "developement" in as many areas as you want, but the driver, even in the lowest percentage has to be in that equation, I think this is where he lacks. Alonso is not a Team Player he will always look for an advatage, I am not saying is wrong, they all do, but to call him a team player!! A team player would have done things differently. He was instrumental in pushing Honda out to force his way, even when Honda was not the only problem.

He is a great driver, resourceful, fast, he has the talent. But in my view, this super ability that he has to drive a bad car fast, as some of you say, does not help him or the team, in making that bad car any better, placing a greater burden on the engineers. This is why I think, if they give Stoffel the oportunity to stay one more year, you will see a marked improvement, Sainz will provide a fresh view on things, they will help MCLaren improve and a year from now we will be all talking about how teams improve when Alonso leaves and how unlucky the dude is..........when maybe he was part of the problem.

Dont get me wrong, Fernando is a great talent, but I just dont buy this best ever narrative, top 10 maybe, not top 5. Good for him that he will race in other series, but his time in F1 is done.

I disagree with most of what you wrote except the last statement.

However, the BIB is purely speculation on your part and in no way fact. No one was happy with Honda but McLaren publicly scorning them only strained the relationship and McLaren also did not want to compromise on their size 0 philosophy which is STILL a bit of an issue in that it does not allow the Renault literal breathing room and have suffered DNF’s because of it.

Vettel is near identical in his approach to integrating within a team yet I don’t hear anyone calling him a Diva or saying he’d a disruptive or negative influence on his teams’ overall Performance or progression. The difference currently is that Kimi does give a flying you know what WHAT Cettrl or anyone thinks and gets on with his own program on his terms and mind tricks and nonsense don’t get under his skin like many others. And in that regard I’ll say Ricciardo is similar in that he’s not interested in being toyed with and basically told Red Bull screw you guys and your golden boy, I’m not gonna be anyone’s doormat... Mamba Out!!!

BIB: it's also been an issue for Red Bull, who also have a size zero philosophy, even if it's not called that. Red Bull haven't been able to use the latest version of Renault's MGU-K because of packaging constraints. No team is going to win races if they build a barge with a cavern to house the PU. Honda had the car specs and I've not seen any reports that they warned beforehand that they would have issues due to lack of space, so while it seems popular to bash McLaren for producing a tightly-packaged car they were only doing what any top team would have done. It was down to Honda to insist they needed more space, but one of the reasons they didn't do this was because by all accounts they weren't even aware of it themselves. When they found more HP at the beginning of this year due to TR's more generous packaging requirements, they expressed surprise at the revelation. So yeah, size zero is a convenient scapegoat but isn't to blame IMO.

It has to be said Alonso was one of the more vocal critics of Honda (GP2 engine, anyone) and although I agree it's rumour there were plenty of stories floating around at the time that a large part of McLaren deciding to ditch Honda was the threat that Alonso would leave if they didn't. Like with so much surrounding Alonso, though, it's largely speculation but what is not is that he was undoubtedly Honda's fiercest and most public critic


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