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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I think that Ferrari wanted a front row lockout, not worried about the order. Vettel was able to do it without a tow, but Kimi was borderline - so Vettel towing Kimi pretty much guaranteed them 1-2 on the grid.


Vettel was as close to Hamilton as Kimi was to Vettel. They all towed one another along

fair point


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Invade wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
Where is Bottas exactly? Combo of bad form and Hamilton flying?

I think it is a bit of both. Remember Hamilton beat roisberg by over half a second here one year. Bottas was closer than that. Bottas's middle sector was not bad at all. So actually, I'd say it was more that Hamilton was impressive then Bottas being poor. Although almost every lap he did before that was a mess in some way. The gap was 0.362 which still isn't that much compared to the occations he often struggled last year at this stage of the season.


Yeh, in the end he got in a pretty good lap but Hamilton was consistently on it here at, as has been said, one of his strongest tracks. I think Ferrari are 2 tenths faster, as a conservative estimate. For the race I expect similar.

I just feel that Vettel will get Kimi at the start. Kimi IMO generally doesn't have good starts and isn't great at defending. But anyhow, I still think Ferrari should keep Kimi for next year. He is certainly still decent.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I think that Ferrari wanted a front row lockout, not worried about the order. Vettel was able to do it without a tow, but Kimi was borderline - so Vettel towing Kimi pretty much guaranteed them 1-2 on the grid.


Vettel was as close to Hamilton as Kimi was to Vettel. They all towed one another along

In the end it worked out, but leaving the garage they can't count on Hamilton to play ball, so they didn't have the same certainty he would be there for Sebastian on the lap as Vettel would be for Kimi. I'm not saying that Vettel had more of an advantage than Kimi, but just explaining why Ferrari would give their number two driver the more optimal strategy.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:29 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
j man wrote:
One of the Mercedes is very close to the Ferraris, the other is way off. Was Hamilton brilliant or was Bottas terrible?


Easy Bottas was terrible.

Whenever the other driver can extract a time in the car it means its in the car, but normally folks will want to tell you that it is possible to out drive a car.

So it's not possible for any driver to ever put in a brilliant performance because they'd only be driving to the capability of the car? Your post makes no sense to me.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:29 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Bacus wrote:
Yes Kimi!
Vettel, not the most mature reaction (just when I started to warm up to him)


What was Vettels reaction?

*deadpan* "we will talk after"


dont forget the "yessss" thinking he had pole as he had gone p1 and completely disregarding the fact that his teammate even exists and may dare to go quicker. what a ****.
That makes me believe even stronger that Räikkönen isn't supposed to be ahead of Vettel, anytime, anywhere. Which may well mean that Kimi is making a statement. I only hope it isn't a farewell statement. F1 is not a sport really, but still...

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:31 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Bacus wrote:
Yes Kimi!
Vettel, not the most mature reaction (just when I started to warm up to him)


What was Vettels reaction?

*deadpan* "we will talk after"


dont forget the "yessss" thinking he had pole as he had gone p1 and completely disregarding the fact that his teammate even exists and may dare to go quicker. what a ****.


There is nothing he could have done that would not have added to your 1500+ reasons to dislike him.
;)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:34 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Bacus wrote:
Yes Kimi!
Vettel, not the most mature reaction (just when I started to warm up to him)


What was Vettels reaction?

*deadpan* "we will talk after"


dont forget the "yessss" thinking he had pole as he had gone p1 and completely disregarding the fact that his teammate even exists and may dare to go quicker. what a ****.


Bahahahahahaha!!!! :lol:

Yes, more than a bit self centered.

I suspect that Kimi might have gotten a bit of a tow from Seb, but I don't know if it was enough to make up the difference in their times.

Top three close enough that passing will be very difficult except on pit strategy.

I expect that if Kimi is leading after the first chicane we will see places traded in the pits or the dreaded, "Seb is faster than you" radio message. :uhoh:

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Last edited by Mort Canard on Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:37 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
If the cars are like this for the rest of the year, Ferrari will run away with both titles. Ferrari are clearly fastest here. This is one of Lewis's strongest tracks and he did a great job but look at where Valteri is on the board. It's not as close as you seem to want to suggest.

Well so you say but to me it looked neck and neck in P3, Q2 and Q3, the only time it looked like Ferrari being well clear was Q1 and then they all went 7 tenths faster in Q2 anyway so it's probably fair to say it's not representative.

All the evidence suggests they're very close this weekend, which is great for us.

The CARS are not very close

Well based what I just watched I disagree.


0.180 isn’t very close, especially when it’s number 2 driver beating the others number 1. Monza has the most compressed order of any track and is a short lap. So 0.180 translates to more elshewhere.

If Bottas out qualified Vettel by 0.180 on one of Vettels strongest tracks, would it be considered very close?

If Mercedes have good race pace, they can fight but it seems Ferrari is the better car at the moment

I really don't agree with this stance that the number two must necessarily always be considered slower than the number one driver. Kimi has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he still has strong one-lap pace, but is unfortunately prone to making errors. So it's not that hard to believe that he might still be very quick when he doesn't make an error. I don't think it's right to automatically assume that Vettel should have gotten more out of the car whatever Kimi did.

Not saying it's impossible, either. But I think it's a prejudicial viewpoint


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:40 pm 
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What a heart warming picture:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:40 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Bacus wrote:
Yes Kimi!
Vettel, not the most mature reaction (just when I started to warm up to him)


What was Vettels reaction?

*deadpan* "we will talk after"


dont forget the "yessss" thinking he had pole as he had gone p1 and completely disregarding the fact that his teammate even exists and may dare to go quicker. what a ****.


Bahahahahahaha!!!! :lol:

Yes, more than a bit self centered.

I suspect that Kimi might have gotten a bit of a tow from Seb, but I don't know if it was enough to make up the difference in their times.

Top three close enough that passing will be very difficult except on pit strategy.

I expect that if Kimi is leading after the first chicane we will see places traded in the pits or the dreaded, "Seb is faster than you" radio message. :uhoh:

He did have a faster S3 than Seb, but I think the difference was less than the overall lap time difference, so he would have taken pole anyway


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:40 pm 
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Bacus wrote:
Yes Kimi!
Vettel, not the most mature reaction (just when I started to warm up to him)


What was Vettels reaction?

*deadpan* "we will talk after"


dont forget the "yessss" thinking he had pole as he had gone p1 and completely disregarding the fact that his teammate even exists and may dare to go quicker. what a ****.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:42 pm 
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If the feeling is that the tow made the difference, that would make Vettel's "real" lap time slower than Hamiltons...


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:45 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
If the feeling is that the tow made the difference, that would make Vettel's "real" lap time slower than Hamiltons...

Hamilton was towed by Bottas


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
If the feeling is that the tow made the difference, that would make Vettel's "real" lap time slower than Hamiltons...


Vettel might have benefited from a tow from Hamilton. He certainly was pretty close on Lewis heels at the finish line.

Will be interested to hear if Seb expected a tow from Kimi. :?

...if so, why didn't Team Red release them in that order?

Didn't stick to script???
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:53 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Bacus wrote:
Yes Kimi!
Vettel, not the most mature reaction (just when I started to warm up to him)


What was Vettels reaction?

*deadpan* "we will talk after"


dont forget the "yessss" thinking he had pole as he had gone p1 and completely disregarding the fact that his teammate even exists and may dare to go quicker. what a ****.


There is nothing he could have done that would not have added to your 1500+ reasons to dislike him.
;)


15000, but i reckon he can get to 30k before he retires. i am under no illusions though that vettel will probably lead by the end of lap 1 and will have stronger race pace and probably win. just good that he is annoyed at least today.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:54 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Zoue wrote:
If the feeling is that the tow made the difference, that would make Vettel's "real" lap time slower than Hamiltons...


Vettel might have benefited from a tow from Hamilton. He certainly was pretty close on Lewis heels at the finish line.

Will be interested to hear if Seb expected a tow from Kimi. :?

...if so, why didn't Team Red release them in that order?

according to Arrivabene they rotate and today was Vettel's turn to go first


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
j man wrote:
One of the Mercedes is very close to the Ferraris, the other is way off. Was Hamilton brilliant or was Bottas terrible?


Easy Bottas was terrible.

Whenever the other driver can extract a time in the car it means its in the car, but normally folks will want to tell you that it is possible to out drive a car.


Do you not even admit that he was strong in the middle sector? If you don't then it basically should mean that all 4 of them were terrible in that sector. But that wasn't the case. Bottas was the weakest out of all of them overall and a fair way behind Hamilton, but that final attempt wasn't terrible. Hamilton has outqualified Rosberg by a bigger margin than this and also did with Bottas last year. Although that size of a gap was related to Bottas messing up at the start.

If that last attempt today had been with a tow, he may have got another tenth out of it as the end of the session is the time you are likely to set your best time. I don't even remember people calling Hamilton terrible in Russia last year where Bottas beat him by very nearly half a second. I would call that off the pace, but not terrible. If anything, Bottas won't haev had the same advantage as the 3 behind him did. I still am sure he still will have been 4th, but not quite by as much if things had been different.

As Hamilton has been known to be excellent at Monza, I would say he again did a very good job, and Bottas struggled earlier on but eventually put a decent lap in, just not great one. I don't know why it should be called terrible. As I said, he looked as fast as the rest in the middle of the lap.


Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Gasly was "only" .700s down on Max and .300s down on the Renault. Did Max get a tow? Horner spoke about leaving the pits at the right moment to maximize the tow. If the Toro Rosso was able to get P9 without a tow then the Honda engine appears to be working well. Considering RBR is usually faster that the TR, this is starting to really drive home the fact that RBR did made the correct choice by switching next year.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:57 pm 
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15:22 Want to know how close that session was? A tenth separated Gasly - who ended up a comfortable enough 12th - and team-mate Hartley, who was 18th.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/live/2808393/italian-gp-final-practice-and-qualifying-3

8O


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:00 pm 
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One of the benefits of having so few teams is that the gap is quite small between the whole field. Again, in Q1, there was 1.5 seconds from Vettel to Vandoorne (1st to last).


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:03 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
I really don't agree with this stance that the number two must necessarily always be considered slower than the number one driver. Kimi has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he still has strong one-lap pace, but is unfortunately prone to making errors. So it's not that hard to believe that he might still be very quick when he doesn't make an error. I don't think it's right to automatically assume that Vettel should have gotten more out of the car whatever Kimi did.

Not saying it's impossible, either. But I think it's a prejudicial viewpoint


I don't disagree but you have to make certain deductions. If Bottas took pole from Vettel by 0.180 in a Mercedes 1-2, I think you would be rightly laughed at for claiming the cars are 'very close' (not aimed at you).

But you did make a good point regarding best sectors, so it will be interesting to see those times later. Hamilton had maybe another 0.050 on best sectors I believe.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:04 pm 
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I think a lot of people don't understand the tow effect or probably how to get the best of it.

If you have SkyF1 watch the post race and how DiResta explains why the tow helped Raikkonen and not Vettel, probably sure it will be shown before the race tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
If the feeling is that the tow made the difference, that would make Vettel's "real" lap time slower than Hamiltons...


If you are not within the right distance the tow becomes bad it as you don't get the benefit, cue Alonso v Magnussen.


Last edited by Rockie on Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:07 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
j man wrote:
One of the Mercedes is very close to the Ferraris, the other is way off. Was Hamilton brilliant or was Bottas terrible?


Easy Bottas was terrible.

Whenever the other driver can extract a time in the car it means its in the car, but normally folks will want to tell you that it is possible to out drive a car.


I don't even remember people calling Hamilton terrible in Russia last year where Bottas beat him by very nearly half a second. I would call that off the pace, but not terrible.


You remember incorrectly then. That is regarded as Hamilton worst qualifying session in the last 5 years, possibly ever. In fact, I am going with ever as there were no mitigating circumstances, he was just useless.

Hamilton is considered to have had an "off weekend" (performance wise) in China this year because he was 0.050 off Bottas in qualifying and stuck in traffic the entire race after a bad start.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I really don't agree with this stance that the number two must necessarily always be considered slower than the number one driver. Kimi has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he still has strong one-lap pace, but is unfortunately prone to making errors. So it's not that hard to believe that he might still be very quick when he doesn't make an error. I don't think it's right to automatically assume that Vettel should have gotten more out of the car whatever Kimi did.

Not saying it's impossible, either. But I think it's a prejudicial viewpoint


I don't disagree but you have to make certain deductions. If Bottas took pole from Vettel by 0.180 in a Mercedes 1-2, I think you would be rightly laughed at for claiming the cars are 'very close' (not aimed at you).

But you did make a good point regarding best sectors, so it will be interesting to see those times later. Hamilton had maybe another 0.050 on best sectors I believe.

The real problem is that this is the exact reasoning that he used to explain Vettel's pole in races like Canada and Bahrain. Basically saying that because Bottas was the faster qualifying Mercedes, there was time left on the table. He only takes issue with this form of reasoning when the shoe is on the other foot.

For the record, I agree that you cannot just assume that the slower driver will always be slower. These are F1 drivers after all. They're all capable of brilliance on their day.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:14 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I really don't agree with this stance that the number two must necessarily always be considered slower than the number one driver. Kimi has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he still has strong one-lap pace, but is unfortunately prone to making errors. So it's not that hard to believe that he might still be very quick when he doesn't make an error. I don't think it's right to automatically assume that Vettel should have gotten more out of the car whatever Kimi did.

Not saying it's impossible, either. But I think it's a prejudicial viewpoint


I don't disagree but you have to make certain deductions. If Bottas took pole from Vettel by 0.180 in a Mercedes 1-2, I think you would be rightly laughed at for claiming the cars are 'very close' (not aimed at you).

But you did make a good point regarding best sectors, so it will be interesting to see those times later. Hamilton had maybe another 0.050 on best sectors I believe.

The real problem is that this is the exact reasoning that he used to explain Vettel's pole in races like Canada and Bahrain. Basically saying that because Bottas was the faster qualifying Mercedes, there was time left on the table. He only takes issue with this form of reasoning when the shoe is on the other foot.

For the record, I agree that you cannot just assume that the slower driver will always be slower. These are F1 drivers after all. They're all capable of brilliance on their day.


Yes.

Kimi Raikkonen is 38 years old, a number 2 or at best 1.5 driver and was never exceptional over 1 lap.

Valteri Bottas is a number 2 or at best a 1.5 driver, evidence shows he is not a top tier driver.

Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel and 4x WDC's, have there teams main focus and are considered arguably the best two drivers to debut in the last 25 years.

If KR and VB out perform those two, the best deduction is they under performed. Especially when the gap is 0.150+ and not something like 0.005 where it could be the number 2 getting nearly everything out of it.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:15 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
j man wrote:
One of the Mercedes is very close to the Ferraris, the other is way off. Was Hamilton brilliant or was Bottas terrible?


Easy Bottas was terrible.

Whenever the other driver can extract a time in the car it means its in the car, but normally folks will want to tell you that it is possible to out drive a car.


Do you not even admit that he was strong in the middle sector? If you don't then it basically should mean that all 4 of them were terrible in that sector. But that wasn't the case. Bottas was the weakest out of all of them overall and a fair way behind Hamilton, but that final attempt wasn't terrible. Hamilton has outqualified Rosberg by a bigger margin than this and also did with Bottas last year. Although that size of a gap was related to Bottas messing up at the start.

If that last attempt today had been with a tow, he may have got another tenth out of it as the end of the session is the time you are likely to set your best time. I don't even remember people calling Hamilton terrible in Russia last year where Bottas beat him by very nearly half a second. I would call that off the pace, but not terrible. If anything, Bottas won't haev had the same advantage as the 3 behind him did. I still am sure he still will have been 4th, but not quite by as much if things had been different.

As Hamilton has been known to be excellent at Monza, I would say he again did a very good job, and Bottas struggled earlier on but eventually put a decent lap in, just not great one. I don't know why it should be called terrible. As I said, he looked as fast as the rest in the middle of the lap.


Your premise in this post is based on Hamilton finding time that is not in the car.

In Russia Hamilton under performed and was called out for it.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:20 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I really don't agree with this stance that the number two must necessarily always be considered slower than the number one driver. Kimi has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he still has strong one-lap pace, but is unfortunately prone to making errors. So it's not that hard to believe that he might still be very quick when he doesn't make an error. I don't think it's right to automatically assume that Vettel should have gotten more out of the car whatever Kimi did.

Not saying it's impossible, either. But I think it's a prejudicial viewpoint


I don't disagree but you have to make certain deductions. If Bottas took pole from Vettel by 0.180 in a Mercedes 1-2, I think you would be rightly laughed at for claiming the cars are 'very close' (not aimed at you).

But you did make a good point regarding best sectors, so it will be interesting to see those times later. Hamilton had maybe another 0.050 on best sectors I believe.

The real problem is that this is the exact reasoning that he used to explain Vettel's pole in races like Canada and Bahrain. Basically saying that because Bottas was the faster qualifying Mercedes, there was time left on the table. He only takes issue with this form of reasoning when the shoe is on the other foot.

For the record, I agree that you cannot just assume that the slower driver will always be slower. These are F1 drivers after all. They're all capable of brilliance on their day.


Yes.

Kimi Raikkonen is 38 years old, a number 2 or at best 1.5 driver and was never exceptional over 1 lap.

Valteri Bottas is a number 2 or at best a 1.5 driver, evidence shows he is not a top tier driver.

Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel and 4x WDC's, have there teams main focus and are considered arguably the best two drivers to debut in the last 25 years.

If KR and VB out perform those two, the best deduction is they under performed. Especially when the gap is 0.150+ and not something like 0.005 where it could be the number 2 getting nearly everything out of it.

BIB: I would disagree with you quite strongly there. At one point he had a reputation for being exactly that.

Of course recently he has made errors more often than not, but he has shown himself to have a decent turn of one-lap pace


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:40 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
j man wrote:
One of the Mercedes is very close to the Ferraris, the other is way off. Was Hamilton brilliant or was Bottas terrible?


Easy Bottas was terrible.

Whenever the other driver can extract a time in the car it means its in the car, but normally folks will want to tell you that it is possible to out drive a car.


I don't even remember people calling Hamilton terrible in Russia last year where Bottas beat him by very nearly half a second. I would call that off the pace, but not terrible.


You remember incorrectly then. That is regarded as Hamilton worst qualifying session in the last 5 years, possibly ever. In fact, I am going with ever as there were no mitigating circumstances, he was just useless.

Hamilton is considered to have had an "off weekend" (performance wise) in China this year because he was 0.050 off Bottas in qualifying and stuck in traffic the entire race after a bad start.


Ok, I'm not a Hamilton fan, but you are stretching the definition of useless somewhat. Wouldn't useless be more like deciding not to even finish? I know it wasn't great and he was well off the top 3, but extremely or poor useless surely would mean finishing a bit further back than 4th? Even looking in that thread, I think only 1 forum member said Hamilton was terrible. Others didn't use a word quite as strong. But useless seems unrealistic. If you had no use being there, then the car wouldn't be in any position. So Hamilton clearly was useful enough to get 4th...

What I think of as terrible performances are where drivers crash out without setting a decent time. For example, what Hamilton did in Brazil last year and Baku the year before are significantly worse than Russia IMO.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Yeah, Kimi definitely got better tow than Vettel. Both Ferraris were taking little different line through parabolica than mercedes. And it was very clear than 2 Ferraris following close will give better tow to the person who was behind. Does not matter really, it was great end result for Ferrari and Tifosi.
Of all the races, if needed, Ferrari will use team orders to swap the two if required tomorrow in the race provided kimi does keep his place after first lap. We are now getting close and those extra 7 points will be crucial in championships.
Vettel does not really have to be disappointed, and this would be great booster for Kimi. He has openly said that he will play ball if asked to help with championship, so all they need to ensure tomorrow is that they dont tangle with each other at the start tomorrow. Ferrari 1-2 would be great, but if they want WDC, they will need to ensure Vettel wins this.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:59 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I really don't agree with this stance that the number two must necessarily always be considered slower than the number one driver. Kimi has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he still has strong one-lap pace, but is unfortunately prone to making errors. So it's not that hard to believe that he might still be very quick when he doesn't make an error. I don't think it's right to automatically assume that Vettel should have gotten more out of the car whatever Kimi did.

Not saying it's impossible, either. But I think it's a prejudicial viewpoint


I don't disagree but you have to make certain deductions. If Bottas took pole from Vettel by 0.180 in a Mercedes 1-2, I think you would be rightly laughed at for claiming the cars are 'very close' (not aimed at you).

But you did make a good point regarding best sectors, so it will be interesting to see those times later. Hamilton had maybe another 0.050 on best sectors I believe.

The real problem is that this is the exact reasoning that he used to explain Vettel's pole in races like Canada and Bahrain. Basically saying that because Bottas was the faster qualifying Mercedes, there was time left on the table. He only takes issue with this form of reasoning when the shoe is on the other foot.

For the record, I agree that you cannot just assume that the slower driver will always be slower. These are F1 drivers after all. They're all capable of brilliance on their day.


Yes.

Kimi Raikkonen is 38 years old, a number 2 or at best 1.5 driver and was never exceptional over 1 lap.

Valteri Bottas is a number 2 or at best a 1.5 driver, evidence shows he is not a top tier driver.

Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel and 4x WDC's, have there teams main focus and are considered arguably the best two drivers to debut in the last 25 years.

If KR and VB out perform those two, the best deduction is they under performed. Especially when the gap is 0.150+ and not something like 0.005 where it could be the number 2 getting nearly everything out of it.

BIB: I would disagree with you quite strongly there. At one point he had a reputation for being exactly that.

Of course recently he has made errors more often than not, but he has shown himself to have a decent turn of one-lap pace


Agreed, kimi has set numerous fastest lap records throughout his career and still holds records at current tracks

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:07 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Yeah, Kimi definitely got better tow than Vettel. Both Ferraris were taking little different line through parabolica than mercedes. And it was very clear than 2 Ferraris following close will give better tow to the person who was behind. Does not matter really, it was great end result for Ferrari and Tifosi.
Of all the races, if needed, Ferrari will use team orders to swap the two if required tomorrow in the race provided kimi does keep his place after first lap. We are now getting close and those extra 7 points will be crucial in championships.
Vettel does not really have to be disappointed, and this would be great booster for Kimi. He has openly said that he will play ball if asked to help with championship, so all they need to ensure tomorrow is that they dont tangle with each other at the start tomorrow. Ferrari 1-2 would be great, but if they want WDC, they will need to ensure Vettel wins this.

The issue as far as the big picture and the championship is concerned, is that Vettel will be in a somewhat vulnerable position for the race start on the dirty side of the grid. Monza is a race where we frequently see the 2nd place starter lose a position. This is also a time where Ferrari will want to maximize their points haul for Seb in each race. I think their ideal scenario is that Vettel makes a perfect getaway and takes the lead into turn one. Hamilton getting in between Vettel and Kimi would be an absolute nightmare for them.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:10 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
j man wrote:
One of the Mercedes is very close to the Ferraris, the other is way off. Was Hamilton brilliant or was Bottas terrible?


Easy Bottas was terrible.

Whenever the other driver can extract a time in the car it means its in the car, but normally folks will want to tell you that it is possible to out drive a car.


I don't even remember people calling Hamilton terrible in Russia last year where Bottas beat him by very nearly half a second. I would call that off the pace, but not terrible.


You remember incorrectly then. That is regarded as Hamilton worst qualifying session in the last 5 years, possibly ever. In fact, I am going with ever as there were no mitigating circumstances, he was just useless.

Hamilton is considered to have had an "off weekend" (performance wise) in China this year because he was 0.050 off Bottas in qualifying and stuck in traffic the entire race after a bad start.


Ok, I'm not a Hamilton fan, but you are stretching the definition of useless somewhat. Wouldn't useless be more like deciding not to even finish? I know it wasn't great and he was well off the top 3, but extremely or poor useless surely would mean finishing a bit further back than 4th? Even looking in that thread, I think only 1 forum member said Hamilton was terrible. Others didn't use a word quite as strong. But useless seems unrealistic. If you had no use being there, then the car wouldn't be in any position. So Hamilton clearly was useful enough to get 4th...

What I think of as terrible performances are where drivers crash out without setting a decent time. For example, what Hamilton did in Brazil last year and Baku the year before are significantly worse than Russia IMO.


He was 4th in a 4 car race. The gap from Bottas to the first Red Bull was 1.6 seconds.

He is a professional elite athlete, 4 time world champion. That is the standard he is judged against - himself. He has done about 220 qualifying session and that one ranks as number 220 if you order them from best to worst...


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:13 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Easy Bottas was terrible.

Whenever the other driver can extract a time in the car it means its in the car, but normally folks will want to tell you that it is possible to out drive a car.


I don't even remember people calling Hamilton terrible in Russia last year where Bottas beat him by very nearly half a second. I would call that off the pace, but not terrible.


You remember incorrectly then. That is regarded as Hamilton worst qualifying session in the last 5 years, possibly ever. In fact, I am going with ever as there were no mitigating circumstances, he was just useless.

Hamilton is considered to have had an "off weekend" (performance wise) in China this year because he was 0.050 off Bottas in qualifying and stuck in traffic the entire race after a bad start.


Ok, I'm not a Hamilton fan, but you are stretching the definition of useless somewhat. Wouldn't useless be more like deciding not to even finish? I know it wasn't great and he was well off the top 3, but extremely or poor useless surely would mean finishing a bit further back than 4th? Even looking in that thread, I think only 1 forum member said Hamilton was terrible. Others didn't use a word quite as strong. But useless seems unrealistic. If you had no use being there, then the car wouldn't be in any position. So Hamilton clearly was useful enough to get 4th...

What I think of as terrible performances are where drivers crash out without setting a decent time. For example, what Hamilton did in Brazil last year and Baku the year before are significantly worse than Russia IMO.


He was 4th in a 4 car race. The gap from Bottas to the first Red Bull was 1.6 seconds.

He is a professional elite athlete, 4 time world champion. That is the standard he is judged against - himself. He has done about 220 qualifying session and that one ranks as number 220 if you order them from best to worst...

Now that's unfair... surely Brazil last year gets the number 220 spot ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:14 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:

Agreed, kimi has set numerous fastest lap records throughout his career and still holds records at current tracks


Kimi had the reputation for being the fastest guy in F1 circa 2004-2005. That is 14 years ago and based largely on him thrashing DC. Since then he has been out qualified by Massa, Alonso, Vettel (7-0 in seasons) and didn't exactly dominant Grosjean.

He did look good on Michelins and when qualifying was on race fuel though circa 2003-2006.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:51 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I really don't agree with this stance that the number two must necessarily always be considered slower than the number one driver. Kimi has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he still has strong one-lap pace, but is unfortunately prone to making errors. So it's not that hard to believe that he might still be very quick when he doesn't make an error. I don't think it's right to automatically assume that Vettel should have gotten more out of the car whatever Kimi did.

Not saying it's impossible, either. But I think it's a prejudicial viewpoint


I don't disagree but you have to make certain deductions. If Bottas took pole from Vettel by 0.180 in a Mercedes 1-2, I think you would be rightly laughed at for claiming the cars are 'very close' (not aimed at you).

But you did make a good point regarding best sectors, so it will be interesting to see those times later. Hamilton had maybe another 0.050 on best sectors I believe.

The real problem is that this is the exact reasoning that he used to explain Vettel's pole in races like Canada and Bahrain. Basically saying that because Bottas was the faster qualifying Mercedes, there was time left on the table. He only takes issue with this form of reasoning when the shoe is on the other foot.

For the record, I agree that you cannot just assume that the slower driver will always be slower. These are F1 drivers after all. They're all capable of brilliance on their day.


Yes.

Kimi Raikkonen is 38 years old, a number 2 or at best 1.5 driver and was never exceptional over 1 lap.

Valteri Bottas is a number 2 or at best a 1.5 driver, evidence shows he is not a top tier driver.

Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel and 4x WDC's, have there teams main focus and are considered arguably the best two drivers to debut in the last 25 years.

If KR and VB out perform those two, the best deduction is they under performed. Especially when the gap is 0.150+ and not something like 0.005 where it could be the number 2 getting nearly everything out of it.

I think you’re missing the point that this is F1, and as such, equipment is not 100% fool proof or perfect every single time out. There are literally thousands of things on an F1 car they can be not quite right that will prevent a driver from getting the maximum performance compared to a teammate. So while you run out and call it underperforming, said driver may actually be doing a better job than normal to just stay as close as they did in achieving a lesser time.

When it’s that infrequent, I think it’s best to chalk it up to such a possibility because normally certain drivers are consistently superior to their teammates.

Anyhow... how ‘bout the Icemsn today??!?!??

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:01 pm 
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Giant>

Regarding Bottas' best S2, to me his times show how the tow was working today. He was quickest in S2 because he had no tow and therefore no dirty air through Lesmo 1 and Lesmo 2 in S2. This explains why he was so far off in the other sectors. It also seems likely that Kimi got the best overall tow as he is quickest in S1 and S3 but slowest in S2 of the top 3 guys.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... s=7806&p=3

I don't know what the best tow was, whether it be 1.5, 2.0 or 2.5 seconds off the car in front. They all seemed pretty equally spaced.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:55 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I really don't agree with this stance that the number two must necessarily always be considered slower than the number one driver. Kimi has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he still has strong one-lap pace, but is unfortunately prone to making errors. So it's not that hard to believe that he might still be very quick when he doesn't make an error. I don't think it's right to automatically assume that Vettel should have gotten more out of the car whatever Kimi did.

Not saying it's impossible, either. But I think it's a prejudicial viewpoint


I don't disagree but you have to make certain deductions. If Bottas took pole from Vettel by 0.180 in a Mercedes 1-2, I think you would be rightly laughed at for claiming the cars are 'very close' (not aimed at you).

But you did make a good point regarding best sectors, so it will be interesting to see those times later. Hamilton had maybe another 0.050 on best sectors I believe.

The real problem is that this is the exact reasoning that he used to explain Vettel's pole in races like Canada and Bahrain. Basically saying that because Bottas was the faster qualifying Mercedes, there was time left on the table. He only takes issue with this form of reasoning when the shoe is on the other foot.

For the record, I agree that you cannot just assume that the slower driver will always be slower. These are F1 drivers after all. They're all capable of brilliance on their day.


:thumbup: Exactly, was going to say the same thing as you. Specially regarding Canada ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:03 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
j man wrote:
One of the Mercedes is very close to the Ferraris, the other is way off. Was Hamilton brilliant or was Bottas terrible?


Easy Bottas was terrible.

Whenever the other driver can extract a time in the car it means its in the car, but normally folks will want to tell you that it is possible to out drive a car.

That kind of assumes that all drivers are equal.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:05 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Bacus wrote:
Yes Kimi!
Vettel, not the most mature reaction (just when I started to warm up to him)


What was Vettels reaction?

*deadpan* "we will talk after"


dont forget the "yessss" thinking he had pole as he had gone p1 and completely disregarding the fact that his teammate even exists and may dare to go quicker. what a ****.

Which kind of shows how Vettel views Kimi as a driver relative to himself and why he's happy to have him around.

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