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Which driver won each intra-team battle in Italy?
Poll ended at Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:47 pm
Hamilton 12%  12%  [ 36 ]
Bottas 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Vettel 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
Raikkonen 11%  11%  [ 35 ]
Ricciardo 2%  2%  [ 7 ]
Verstappen 7%  7%  [ 23 ]
Perez 3%  3%  [ 9 ]
Ocon 7%  7%  [ 21 ]
Stroll 9%  9%  [ 28 ]
Sirotkin 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
Sainz 7%  7%  [ 23 ]
Hulkenberg 2%  2%  [ 5 ]
Gasly 9%  9%  [ 29 ]
Hartley 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Grosjean 8%  8%  [ 26 ]
Magnussen 1%  1%  [ 3 ]
Alonso 9%  9%  [ 29 ]
Vandoorne 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
Ericsson 1%  1%  [ 4 ]
Leclerc 8%  8%  [ 25 ]
Total votes : 311
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Hamilton 10-3 Bottas (64/36)
Vettel 9-4 Raikkonen (60/40)
Ricciardo 6-7 Verstappen (50/50)
Perez 5-7 Ocon (50/50)
Stroll 8-5 Sirotkin (61/39)
Hulkenberg 7-6 Sainz (58/42)
Gasly 9-4 Hartley (69/31)
Magnussen 9-4 Grosjean (73/27)
Alonso 12-1 Vandoorne (91/9)
Ericsson 6-7 Leclerc (35/65)

- Six wins in a row for Hamilton, and one TMW win from securing victory for the season.
- Vettel extends his lead over Kimi with his third TMW win in four races.
- Max re-takes the lead over Daniel, although Ricciardo has picked up three more votes for the season (217 v 214).
- Perez/Ocon is similarly close with Checo closing the gap to 5-7 and just one vote separating them for the season (187 for Perez v 186 for Ocon).
- The two Williams drivers continue to split wins, with Sirotkin again reducing the gap.
- Sainz's second TMW win in succession tightens up the Renault battle once more, although Hulk has the advantage in terms of voting percentage.
- At Toro Rosso, recently promoted Pierre Gasly takes his fourth TMW win in five races and enjoys a comfortable advantage.
- Meanwhile for the seventh race in a row, a different Haas driver claims the TMW spoils. It would suggest that, since Grosjean's early season struggles, he and KMag have been more evenly matched, something the votes reflect: Grosjean has received 85 over the last seven races while Magnussen has received 86.
- Not even Alonso's first-lap elimination is enough to allow Vandoorne to score a second TMW victory for 2018. 12-1 now. Ouch.
- Lastly, Sauber's drivers seem to be taking it in turns to have a period of dominance. Ericsson won the first three TMW votes, then Leclerc rattled off a season-high seven TMW wins in a row, and now Marcus has responded with another three TMW wins in a row. 7-6 to Charles for the season, albeit with a much less balanced vote percentage!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:57 pm 
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I vote for Bottas, got to love it. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I vote for Bottas, got to love it. :lol:

I swear people do it just to wind others up :uhoh:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:10 pm 
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I just wonder who.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:46 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I vote for Bottas, got to love it. :lol:

I swear people do it just to wind others up :uhoh:


Considering how clear (at least IMO, but backed up by the votes so far) it was which driver in each team warranted the vote, and the fact that there is one vote for a lot of the underperforming drivers, I wonder if it is one person doing it intentionally...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:52 pm 
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I've gone for a couple of against the flow picks here, including one I'm quite surprised is against the flow and I'll happily argue my case for. First, the others:

Hamilton at Mercedes. Bottas was nowhere near his pace all weekend.
Raikkonen at Ferrari. Not only was Kimi quicker in qualifying, he was able to race Hamilton without smashing into his sidepod...
Sainz at Renault. It's hard to draw a comparison with Hulk starting at the back, but Sainz was impressive enough to take it anyway.
Grosjean at Haas. No comparison, really - KMag was pretty poor this weekend.
Alonso at McLaren. Faster in qualifying, ahead when he retired.
Gasly at Toro Rosso. Dominated in qualifying, and since Hartley didn't really race that's all that matters.
Leclerc at Sauber. Ericsson started at the back, admittedly, but I feel Leclerc was a little stronger overall.
Stroll at Williams. This seems to be a strong track for him, and he was clearly ahead this time.

Those are all in keeping with the general feeling. I've voted against the trend on two of them, however:

Ricciardo at Red Bull. He was faster in the only session they both participated in, and unlike his teammate he didn't display the driving of a bully in the race. He kept up with Seb for most of the time they were in traffic, and retired due to no fault of his own. I think he deserves to be a lot closer than the 4/16 he's at when I write this.

But the one that really gets me:

Perez at Force India. Why are people voting for Ocon? Perez set the faster lap on their first runs, and because of that the team thought he didn't need to run again. He was screwed out of Q2 by a miscalculation, and in the race he finished less than a second behind. I believe he was clearly better than Ocon this weekend, and I find it bizarre that the vote is tilted so far in Esteban's favor. Are people looking only at positions with no care for how they came about?

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PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:48 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
I've gone for a couple of against the flow picks here, including one I'm quite surprised is against the flow and I'll happily argue my case for. First, the others:

Hamilton at Mercedes. Bottas was nowhere near his pace all weekend.
Raikkonen at Ferrari. Not only was Kimi quicker in qualifying, he was able to race Hamilton without smashing into his sidepod...
Sainz at Renault. It's hard to draw a comparison with Hulk starting at the back, but Sainz was impressive enough to take it anyway.
Grosjean at Haas. No comparison, really - KMag was pretty poor this weekend.
Alonso at McLaren. Faster in qualifying, ahead when he retired.
Gasly at Toro Rosso. Dominated in qualifying, and since Hartley didn't really race that's all that matters.
Leclerc at Sauber. Ericsson started at the back, admittedly, but I feel Leclerc was a little stronger overall.
Stroll at Williams. This seems to be a strong track for him, and he was clearly ahead this time.

Those are all in keeping with the general feeling. I've voted against the trend on two of them, however:

Ricciardo at Red Bull. He was faster in the only session they both participated in, and unlike his teammate he didn't display the driving of a bully in the race. He kept up with Seb for most of the time they were in traffic, and retired due to no fault of his own. I think he deserves to be a lot closer than the 4/16 he's at when I write this.

But the one that really gets me:

Perez at Force India. Why are people voting for Ocon? Perez set the faster lap on their first runs, and because of that the team thought he didn't need to run again. He was screwed out of Q2 by a miscalculation, and in the race he finished less than a second behind. I believe he was clearly better than Ocon this weekend, and I find it bizarre that the vote is tilted so far in Esteban's favor. Are people looking only at positions with no care for how they came about?


About Ocon, I did vote him as I did think he over all did slight better. He managed to put in a lap that was already good enough to get through to Q2. He couldn't improve with another run so we don't know if Perez could have. All we know is that Ocon's fastest time (his first run) was enough to put him in p7 in the end. 9 places higher then Perez's first run. Perez may not have got another chance, but I still think Ocon performed where it mattered then. Missing just one lap at the end is often the case for many drivers. Ericsson did last weekend at Spa, and who knows, he could have out qualified Leclerc without boxing. The race did look better by Perez, but Ocon didn't look bad.


And with Bottas, I can agree he was not close to Hamilton in qualifying, but in the end, I certainly can't agree that he was nowhere near Hamilton's pace in the race. Yes, he struggled to get past verstappen, but to me, Red Bull were clearly using a low drag setup or it would be dead simple for Bottas to have got him on the straights with the straight line speed advantage. Verstappen didn't actually drop that far behind the leaders compared to in other races. Especially if you compare the pace and look at the gap he had in qualifying. Red Bull's race pace was significantly better on race day. If you consider that Bottas tried to hold Kimi up, and lost around 6 seconds when Verstappen pushed him off (while also possibly messing up his tyres a bit with he contact) he did lose time. It is pretty like he would have been within 10 seconds of Hamilton by the end of it without this. He possibly may have even been able to challenge Kimi considering the state of his tyres. While others may doubt this, i think he will have got Verstappen at that corner or on the next lap. His pace difference at that stage was massive until after he contact where he seemed to be taking things more carefully. I agree that Hamilton should easily get the vote, but on race day, Bottas didn't look to be struggling to me.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:01 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Perez at Force India. Why are people voting for Ocon? Perez set the faster lap on their first runs, and because of that the team thought he didn't need to run again. He was screwed out of Q2 by a miscalculation, and in the race he finished less than a second behind. I believe he was clearly better than Ocon this weekend, and I find it bizarre that the vote is tilted so far in Esteban's favor. Are people looking only at positions with no care for how they came about?

About Ocon, I did vote him as I did think he over all did slight better. He managed to put in a lap that was already good enough to get through to Q2. He couldn't improve with another run so we don't know if Perez could have. All we know is that Ocon's fastest time (his first run) was enough to put him in p7 in the end. 9 places higher then Perez's first run. Perez may not have got another chance, but I still think Ocon performed where it mattered then. Missing just one lap at the end is often the case for many drivers. Ericsson did last weekend at Spa, and who knows, he could have out qualified Leclerc without boxing. The race did look better by Perez, but Ocon didn't look bad.

I had apparently misremembered qualifying, and after going back and watching Q1 you are correct: Perez did not set a banker lap faster than Ocon. I had been thinking that Ocon needed his second lap to improve and Perez was just unlucky, but that's not the case. That makes it a lot more even, but I still feel they shouldn't be nearly as far apart as they are in the poll right now.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:28 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I've gone for a couple of against the flow picks here, including one I'm quite surprised is against the flow and I'll happily argue my case for. First, the others:

Hamilton at Mercedes. Bottas was nowhere near his pace all weekend.
Raikkonen at Ferrari. Not only was Kimi quicker in qualifying, he was able to race Hamilton without smashing into his sidepod...
Sainz at Renault. It's hard to draw a comparison with Hulk starting at the back, but Sainz was impressive enough to take it anyway.
Grosjean at Haas. No comparison, really - KMag was pretty poor this weekend.
Alonso at McLaren. Faster in qualifying, ahead when he retired.
Gasly at Toro Rosso. Dominated in qualifying, and since Hartley didn't really race that's all that matters.
Leclerc at Sauber. Ericsson started at the back, admittedly, but I feel Leclerc was a little stronger overall.
Stroll at Williams. This seems to be a strong track for him, and he was clearly ahead this time.

Those are all in keeping with the general feeling. I've voted against the trend on two of them, however:

Ricciardo at Red Bull. He was faster in the only session they both participated in, and unlike his teammate he didn't display the driving of a bully in the race. He kept up with Seb for most of the time they were in traffic, and retired due to no fault of his own. I think he deserves to be a lot closer than the 4/16 he's at when I write this.

But the one that really gets me:

Perez at Force India. Why are people voting for Ocon? Perez set the faster lap on their first runs, and because of that the team thought he didn't need to run again. He was screwed out of Q2 by a miscalculation, and in the race he finished less than a second behind. I believe he was clearly better than Ocon this weekend, and I find it bizarre that the vote is tilted so far in Esteban's favor. Are people looking only at positions with no care for how they came about?


About Ocon, I did vote him as I did think he over all did slight better. He managed to put in a lap that was already good enough to get through to Q2. He couldn't improve with another run so we don't know if Perez could have. All we know is that Ocon's fastest time (his first run) was enough to put him in p7 in the end. 9 places higher then Perez's first run. Perez may not have got another chance, but I still think Ocon performed where it mattered then. Missing just one lap at the end is often the case for many drivers. Ericsson did last weekend at Spa, and who knows, he could have out qualified Leclerc without boxing. The race did look better by Perez, but Ocon didn't look bad.


And with Bottas, I can agree he was not close to Hamilton in qualifying, but in the end, I certainly can't agree that he was nowhere near Hamilton's pace in the race. Yes, he struggled to get past verstappen, but to me, Red Bull were clearly using a low drag setup or it would be dead simple for Bottas to have got him on the straights with the straight line speed advantage. Verstappen didn't actually drop that far behind the leaders compared to in other races. Especially if you compare the pace and look at the gap he had in qualifying. Red Bull's race pace was significantly better on race day. If you consider that Bottas tried to hold Kimi up, and lost around 6 seconds when Verstappen pushed him off (while also possibly messing up his tyres a bit with he contact) he did lose time. It is pretty like he would have been within 10 seconds of Hamilton by the end of it without this. He possibly may have even been able to challenge Kimi considering the state of his tyres. While others may doubt this, i think he will have got Verstappen at that corner or on the next lap. His pace difference at that stage was massive until after he contact where he seemed to be taking things more carefully. I agree that Hamilton should easily get the vote, but on race day, Bottas didn't look to be struggling to me.

If Bottas hadn't been held up by Verstappen he would have only been 10 seconds behind Hamilton who was being held up by Kimi, that's some gymnastics being played out there.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:08 am 
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Wasn't grosjean DQed? How is he winning?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:41 am 
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Altair wrote:
Wasn't grosjean DQed? How is he winning?

Because he has the same car as KMag which was also illegal but not protested because he didn't score any points.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:07 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Altair wrote:
Wasn't grosjean DQed? How is he winning?

Because he has the same car as KMag which was also illegal but not protested because he didn't score any points.

Indeed. His illegal car doesn't mean anything in terms of beating the other guy driving the same illegal car.

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PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:52 am 
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pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I've gone for a couple of against the flow picks here, including one I'm quite surprised is against the flow and I'll happily argue my case for. First, the others:

Hamilton at Mercedes. Bottas was nowhere near his pace all weekend.
Raikkonen at Ferrari. Not only was Kimi quicker in qualifying, he was able to race Hamilton without smashing into his sidepod...
Sainz at Renault. It's hard to draw a comparison with Hulk starting at the back, but Sainz was impressive enough to take it anyway.
Grosjean at Haas. No comparison, really - KMag was pretty poor this weekend.
Alonso at McLaren. Faster in qualifying, ahead when he retired.
Gasly at Toro Rosso. Dominated in qualifying, and since Hartley didn't really race that's all that matters.
Leclerc at Sauber. Ericsson started at the back, admittedly, but I feel Leclerc was a little stronger overall.
Stroll at Williams. This seems to be a strong track for him, and he was clearly ahead this time.

Those are all in keeping with the general feeling. I've voted against the trend on two of them, however:

Ricciardo at Red Bull. He was faster in the only session they both participated in, and unlike his teammate he didn't display the driving of a bully in the race. He kept up with Seb for most of the time they were in traffic, and retired due to no fault of his own. I think he deserves to be a lot closer than the 4/16 he's at when I write this.

But the one that really gets me:

Perez at Force India. Why are people voting for Ocon? Perez set the faster lap on their first runs, and because of that the team thought he didn't need to run again. He was screwed out of Q2 by a miscalculation, and in the race he finished less than a second behind. I believe he was clearly better than Ocon this weekend, and I find it bizarre that the vote is tilted so far in Esteban's favor. Are people looking only at positions with no care for how they came about?


About Ocon, I did vote him as I did think he over all did slight better. He managed to put in a lap that was already good enough to get through to Q2. He couldn't improve with another run so we don't know if Perez could have. All we know is that Ocon's fastest time (his first run) was enough to put him in p7 in the end. 9 places higher then Perez's first run. Perez may not have got another chance, but I still think Ocon performed where it mattered then. Missing just one lap at the end is often the case for many drivers. Ericsson did last weekend at Spa, and who knows, he could have out qualified Leclerc without boxing. The race did look better by Perez, but Ocon didn't look bad.


And with Bottas, I can agree he was not close to Hamilton in qualifying, but in the end, I certainly can't agree that he was nowhere near Hamilton's pace in the race. Yes, he struggled to get past verstappen, but to me, Red Bull were clearly using a low drag setup or it would be dead simple for Bottas to have got him on the straights with the straight line speed advantage. Verstappen didn't actually drop that far behind the leaders compared to in other races. Especially if you compare the pace and look at the gap he had in qualifying. Red Bull's race pace was significantly better on race day. If you consider that Bottas tried to hold Kimi up, and lost around 6 seconds when Verstappen pushed him off (while also possibly messing up his tyres a bit with he contact) he did lose time. It is pretty like he would have been within 10 seconds of Hamilton by the end of it without this. He possibly may have even been able to challenge Kimi considering the state of his tyres. While others may doubt this, i think he will have got Verstappen at that corner or on the next lap. His pace difference at that stage was massive until after he contact where he seemed to be taking things more carefully. I agree that Hamilton should easily get the vote, but on race day, Bottas didn't look to be struggling to me.

If Bottas hadn't been held up by Verstappen he would have only been 10 seconds behind Hamilton who was being held up by Kimi, that's some gymnastics being played out there.


I guess you have a point there that i missed. But the gap between Hamilton and Verstappen actually decreased a little after Hamilton got by Kimi. This is what maked me thenk that if Bottas had got by Verstappen and possibly Kimi too and not being that far off Hamilton. Kimi's pace appeared to drop significantly near the end.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:41 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I've gone for a couple of against the flow picks here, including one I'm quite surprised is against the flow and I'll happily argue my case for. First, the others:

Hamilton at Mercedes. Bottas was nowhere near his pace all weekend.
Raikkonen at Ferrari. Not only was Kimi quicker in qualifying, he was able to race Hamilton without smashing into his sidepod...
Sainz at Renault. It's hard to draw a comparison with Hulk starting at the back, but Sainz was impressive enough to take it anyway.
Grosjean at Haas. No comparison, really - KMag was pretty poor this weekend.
Alonso at McLaren. Faster in qualifying, ahead when he retired.
Gasly at Toro Rosso. Dominated in qualifying, and since Hartley didn't really race that's all that matters.
Leclerc at Sauber. Ericsson started at the back, admittedly, but I feel Leclerc was a little stronger overall.
Stroll at Williams. This seems to be a strong track for him, and he was clearly ahead this time.

Those are all in keeping with the general feeling. I've voted against the trend on two of them, however:

Ricciardo at Red Bull. He was faster in the only session they both participated in, and unlike his teammate he didn't display the driving of a bully in the race. He kept up with Seb for most of the time they were in traffic, and retired due to no fault of his own. I think he deserves to be a lot closer than the 4/16 he's at when I write this.

But the one that really gets me:

Perez at Force India. Why are people voting for Ocon? Perez set the faster lap on their first runs, and because of that the team thought he didn't need to run again. He was screwed out of Q2 by a miscalculation, and in the race he finished less than a second behind. I believe he was clearly better than Ocon this weekend, and I find it bizarre that the vote is tilted so far in Esteban's favor. Are people looking only at positions with no care for how they came about?


About Ocon, I did vote him as I did think he over all did slight better. He managed to put in a lap that was already good enough to get through to Q2. He couldn't improve with another run so we don't know if Perez could have. All we know is that Ocon's fastest time (his first run) was enough to put him in p7 in the end. 9 places higher then Perez's first run. Perez may not have got another chance, but I still think Ocon performed where it mattered then. Missing just one lap at the end is often the case for many drivers. Ericsson did last weekend at Spa, and who knows, he could have out qualified Leclerc without boxing. The race did look better by Perez, but Ocon didn't look bad.


And with Bottas, I can agree he was not close to Hamilton in qualifying, but in the end, I certainly can't agree that he was nowhere near Hamilton's pace in the race. Yes, he struggled to get past verstappen, but to me, Red Bull were clearly using a low drag setup or it would be dead simple for Bottas to have got him on the straights with the straight line speed advantage. Verstappen didn't actually drop that far behind the leaders compared to in other races. Especially if you compare the pace and look at the gap he had in qualifying. Red Bull's race pace was significantly better on race day. If you consider that Bottas tried to hold Kimi up, and lost around 6 seconds when Verstappen pushed him off (while also possibly messing up his tyres a bit with he contact) he did lose time. It is pretty like he would have been within 10 seconds of Hamilton by the end of it without this. He possibly may have even been able to challenge Kimi considering the state of his tyres. While others may doubt this, i think he will have got Verstappen at that corner or on the next lap. His pace difference at that stage was massive until after he contact where he seemed to be taking things more carefully. I agree that Hamilton should easily get the vote, but on race day, Bottas didn't look to be struggling to me.

If Bottas hadn't been held up by Verstappen he would have only been 10 seconds behind Hamilton who was being held up by Kimi, that's some gymnastics being played out there.


I guess you have a point there that i missed. But the gap between Hamilton and Verstappen actually decreased a little after Hamilton got by Kimi. This is what maked me thenk that if Bottas had got by Verstappen and possibly Kimi too and not being that far off Hamilton. Kimi's pace appeared to drop significantly near the end.

Yes, Kimi's tyres were badly blistered and he was nursing the car home


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:27 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I've gone for a couple of against the flow picks here, including one I'm quite surprised is against the flow and I'll happily argue my case for. First, the others:

Hamilton at Mercedes. Bottas was nowhere near his pace all weekend.
Raikkonen at Ferrari. Not only was Kimi quicker in qualifying, he was able to race Hamilton without smashing into his sidepod...
Sainz at Renault. It's hard to draw a comparison with Hulk starting at the back, but Sainz was impressive enough to take it anyway.
Grosjean at Haas. No comparison, really - KMag was pretty poor this weekend.
Alonso at McLaren. Faster in qualifying, ahead when he retired.
Gasly at Toro Rosso. Dominated in qualifying, and since Hartley didn't really race that's all that matters.
Leclerc at Sauber. Ericsson started at the back, admittedly, but I feel Leclerc was a little stronger overall.
Stroll at Williams. This seems to be a strong track for him, and he was clearly ahead this time.

Those are all in keeping with the general feeling. I've voted against the trend on two of them, however:

Ricciardo at Red Bull. He was faster in the only session they both participated in, and unlike his teammate he didn't display the driving of a bully in the race. He kept up with Seb for most of the time they were in traffic, and retired due to no fault of his own. I think he deserves to be a lot closer than the 4/16 he's at when I write this.

But the one that really gets me:

Perez at Force India. Why are people voting for Ocon? Perez set the faster lap on their first runs, and because of that the team thought he didn't need to run again. He was screwed out of Q2 by a miscalculation, and in the race he finished less than a second behind. I believe he was clearly better than Ocon this weekend, and I find it bizarre that the vote is tilted so far in Esteban's favor. Are people looking only at positions with no care for how they came about?


About Ocon, I did vote him as I did think he over all did slight better. He managed to put in a lap that was already good enough to get through to Q2. He couldn't improve with another run so we don't know if Perez could have. All we know is that Ocon's fastest time (his first run) was enough to put him in p7 in the end. 9 places higher then Perez's first run. Perez may not have got another chance, but I still think Ocon performed where it mattered then. Missing just one lap at the end is often the case for many drivers. Ericsson did last weekend at Spa, and who knows, he could have out qualified Leclerc without boxing. The race did look better by Perez, but Ocon didn't look bad.


And with Bottas, I can agree he was not close to Hamilton in qualifying, but in the end, I certainly can't agree that he was nowhere near Hamilton's pace in the race. Yes, he struggled to get past verstappen, but to me, Red Bull were clearly using a low drag setup or it would be dead simple for Bottas to have got him on the straights with the straight line speed advantage. Verstappen didn't actually drop that far behind the leaders compared to in other races. Especially if you compare the pace and look at the gap he had in qualifying. Red Bull's race pace was significantly better on race day. If you consider that Bottas tried to hold Kimi up, and lost around 6 seconds when Verstappen pushed him off (while also possibly messing up his tyres a bit with he contact) he did lose time. It is pretty like he would have been within 10 seconds of Hamilton by the end of it without this. He possibly may have even been able to challenge Kimi considering the state of his tyres. While others may doubt this, i think he will have got Verstappen at that corner or on the next lap. His pace difference at that stage was massive until after he contact where he seemed to be taking things more carefully. I agree that Hamilton should easily get the vote, but on race day, Bottas didn't look to be struggling to me.

If Bottas hadn't been held up by Verstappen he would have only been 10 seconds behind Hamilton who was being held up by Kimi, that's some gymnastics being played out there.


I guess you have a point there that i missed. But the gap between Hamilton and Verstappen actually decreased a little after Hamilton got by Kimi. This is what maked me thenk that if Bottas had got by Verstappen and possibly Kimi too and not being that far off Hamilton. Kimi's pace appeared to drop significantly near the end.

How fast do you think Hamilton was driving after he passed Kimi on his shot tyres?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:35 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I've gone for a couple of against the flow picks here, including one I'm quite surprised is against the flow and I'll happily argue my case for. First, the others:

Hamilton at Mercedes. Bottas was nowhere near his pace all weekend.
Raikkonen at Ferrari. Not only was Kimi quicker in qualifying, he was able to race Hamilton without smashing into his sidepod...
Sainz at Renault. It's hard to draw a comparison with Hulk starting at the back, but Sainz was impressive enough to take it anyway.
Grosjean at Haas. No comparison, really - KMag was pretty poor this weekend.
Alonso at McLaren. Faster in qualifying, ahead when he retired.
Gasly at Toro Rosso. Dominated in qualifying, and since Hartley didn't really race that's all that matters.
Leclerc at Sauber. Ericsson started at the back, admittedly, but I feel Leclerc was a little stronger overall.
Stroll at Williams. This seems to be a strong track for him, and he was clearly ahead this time.

Those are all in keeping with the general feeling. I've voted against the trend on two of them, however:

Ricciardo at Red Bull. He was faster in the only session they both participated in, and unlike his teammate he didn't display the driving of a bully in the race. He kept up with Seb for most of the time they were in traffic, and retired due to no fault of his own. I think he deserves to be a lot closer than the 4/16 he's at when I write this.

But the one that really gets me:

Perez at Force India. Why are people voting for Ocon? Perez set the faster lap on their first runs, and because of that the team thought he didn't need to run again. He was screwed out of Q2 by a miscalculation, and in the race he finished less than a second behind. I believe he was clearly better than Ocon this weekend, and I find it bizarre that the vote is tilted so far in Esteban's favor. Are people looking only at positions with no care for how they came about?


About Ocon, I did vote him as I did think he over all did slight better. He managed to put in a lap that was already good enough to get through to Q2. He couldn't improve with another run so we don't know if Perez could have. All we know is that Ocon's fastest time (his first run) was enough to put him in p7 in the end. 9 places higher then Perez's first run. Perez may not have got another chance, but I still think Ocon performed where it mattered then. Missing just one lap at the end is often the case for many drivers. Ericsson did last weekend at Spa, and who knows, he could have out qualified Leclerc without boxing. The race did look better by Perez, but Ocon didn't look bad.


And with Bottas, I can agree he was not close to Hamilton in qualifying, but in the end, I certainly can't agree that he was nowhere near Hamilton's pace in the race. Yes, he struggled to get past verstappen, but to me, Red Bull were clearly using a low drag setup or it would be dead simple for Bottas to have got him on the straights with the straight line speed advantage. Verstappen didn't actually drop that far behind the leaders compared to in other races. Especially if you compare the pace and look at the gap he had in qualifying. Red Bull's race pace was significantly better on race day. If you consider that Bottas tried to hold Kimi up, and lost around 6 seconds when Verstappen pushed him off (while also possibly messing up his tyres a bit with he contact) he did lose time. It is pretty like he would have been within 10 seconds of Hamilton by the end of it without this. He possibly may have even been able to challenge Kimi considering the state of his tyres. While others may doubt this, i think he will have got Verstappen at that corner or on the next lap. His pace difference at that stage was massive until after he contact where he seemed to be taking things more carefully. I agree that Hamilton should easily get the vote, but on race day, Bottas didn't look to be struggling to me.

If Bottas hadn't been held up by Verstappen he would have only been 10 seconds behind Hamilton who was being held up by Kimi, that's some gymnastics being played out there.


I guess you have a point there that i missed. But the gap between Hamilton and Verstappen actually decreased a little after Hamilton got by Kimi. This is what maked me thenk that if Bottas had got by Verstappen and possibly Kimi too and not being that far off Hamilton. Kimi's pace appeared to drop significantly near the end.


After Lewis passed Kimi there was no reason for him to run flat out. He managed his race pace and stayed out of DRS range.

Comparison to Max's pace is not worth so much.

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