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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:56 pm 
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All the articles say the exact same thing, so there isn't much info out there. It is funny that the "test" isn't supposed to indicate anything about if it is going to Indycar or not...wink wink. Like any of us believe that.

The most interesting thing wont be if he goes, but what car he will drive and if there is still an issue with honda japan (although the indycars are an HPD, Honda america project, unrelated to the F1 people in Japan). I am a huge Alonso fan, but he has to see the Hondas up front and either has to consider them or hope Honda doesn't blackball him from driving a Honda. It may not be a big deal, as the Chevys and Hondas are really close, but overall, I'd still rather be in a Honda.

I'd love to know what his times looked like at Barber compared to the indy regulars in similar conditions.

Frankly, I am not sure if he will dominate or not. The cars are so close, so his talent should shine through, but indycars and F1 require slightly different styles and he would be new to all the courses, so it could be hard to beat out guys like Rossi, Dixon, Newgarden, Power and Wickens (hoping he gets healthy) right away. That being said, he is competitive as hell, and if he can do as well as he did at indy500 on the oval, road and street courses should be second nature.

Not looking for this thread to be an Alonso bash-fest, as he can be a bit of a dividing figure, but just general thoughts on the situation. I am really looking forward to him going to indycar, and may fly out to COTA to watch indycar instead of F1 next year.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:03 pm 
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I don't believe there will be any comparative lap times released, so we'll have to stick with speculation. As well the conditions were far from ideal, so I don't know if a comparison is even really possible.

I think it's pretty clear that Alonso will be doing at least the 500 next year. As far as the full season, we can only hope!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:40 pm 
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Source for the video "The RACER Channel"



From https://racer.com/2018/09/05/alonso-pleased-with-indycar-barber-test/

"the Spaniard posted unofficial times in the dry afternoon session that were said to be a few tenths below April’s pole set by Team Penske’s Josef Newgarden."

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:12 pm 
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I see the important detail as being the definition of 'test'.
Is Alonso testing the car? is the team testing Alonso? Is he just having a go to see if he likes it?

Even a few laps costs a considerable amount of money, so it would not just be something after lunch while the wife is in the shops. One has something the other wants, and the 'test' is if they can come to an accommodation.

Either Alonso thinks the car/team is or is not up to the job, or the team thinks Alonso is/is no t worth a run in the car.

Options? The team and car are capable of producing a race winner. Alonso will either give them enough glory, cash or airtime. If both sides are not ruling it out, if will probably happen with a bit of negotiation.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:48 pm 
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If the 'unofficial' times are true (and obviously conditions play a huge part too), then Alonso already posting supposedly faster times than what landed Newgarden pole suggests that were he to do a full season, he would hit the ground running. I personally haven't seen the same interest around the series from fans of my area/age since Mansell crossed the pond, could be a huge oppertunity for Indycar.

My one mild worry is that if Alonso goes over and absolutely cleans up.... it'd reinforce the view that Indycar is a step down from F1, and I personally don't want that to be the case.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:01 am 
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Ooooh... but that is indeed the case. Sadly, the days when Indy featured as many top talents as F1 are long gone. There are very few guys that could compete in F1 and realistically I can think of just the one, and he happens to be an F1 caliber driver but without available seats and considerable backing he made the leap across the pond and looks to be staying for some time. Alonso will be one of the top guys should he run the full season.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:20 pm 
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He will do a whole season in a spare rebadged Andretti. This is just the build up but that is where his heart has been leaning since the Indy 500 attempt and winning Le Mans. He's not coming back to F1 unless MaClaren have a proven race winning car and he will brutally supplant whoever is the currently weaker driver when doing so.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:54 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
If the 'unofficial' times are true (and obviously conditions play a huge part too), then Alonso already posting supposedly faster times than what landed Newgarden pole suggests that were he to do a full season, he would hit the ground running. I personally haven't seen the same interest around the series from fans of my area/age since Mansell crossed the pond, could be a huge oppertunity for Indycar.

My one mild worry is that if Alonso goes over and absolutely cleans up.... it'd reinforce the view that Indycar is a step down from F1, and I personally don't want that to be the case.

The fact is that Indycar is a step down from F1. It doesn't take Fernando Alonso to prove it. If Alonso competes for a full season, there's no amount of money too large for me to bet on him taking the title.

I like Indycar for the record and I do think that the top 3-4 drivers in the series are about up to the level of the bottom 3-4 guys in F1 but the top 3-4 F1 drivers would all clean up in that series with ease.


Last edited by sandman1347 on Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:01 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Ooooh... but that is indeed the case. Sadly, the days when Indy featured as many top talents as F1 are long gone. There are very few guys that could compete in F1 and realistically I can think of just the one, and he happens to be an F1 caliber driver but without available seats and considerable backing he made the leap across the pond and looks to be staying for some time. Alonso will be one of the top guys should he run the full season.

I personally think that there are at least 3-4 guys on the IndyCar grid who could compete in F1, but that doesn't mean I think any of them are Alonso's equals. I think only one driver in F1 is Alonso's equal, and none in WEC.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:21 am 
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The timing is interesting. Andretti basically put a deadline on deciding, and Alonso announced he would not be running Formula One in 2019. And make no doubt, this test is a stress on Alonso, he came off a hectic schedule combining WEC and Formula One. Yet, in the middle of his Formula One schedule he is in Alabama driving an Indycar.

No one has announced anything official, no contracts have been announced to the public. Yet Alonso speaks as if he is going to do Indycar next year. But I suspect there are other series also making bids on his services, for example WEC and Formula E. He is the hottest commodity outside of Formula One, he attracts the right kind of publicity and exposure for any sport that is lucky enough to have him in 2019.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:51 am 
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Like ChampCar did that first year in crossing over to compete in the Indy 500 for the first time in over a decade and swept the top 4 spots (if memory serves me - it’s been a looong time), I’d love to see some F1 teams field their own drivers just for the Indy 500 and see what gives.

I’d bet several top spots would be taken by unfamiliar faces.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:58 am 
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Like ChampCar did that first year in crossing over to compete in the Indy 500 for the first time in over a decade and swept the top 4 spots (if memory serves me - it’s been a looong time), I’d love to see some F1 teams field their own drivers just for the Indy 500 and see what gives.

I’d bet several top spots would be taken by unfamiliar faces.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:02 am 
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How much of a win is dictated by team tactics?
I do not watch much of it but when I do it seems groups of cars work together. If Alonso is in a single car, is he at a huge disadvantage?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:06 pm 
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moby wrote:
How much of a win is dictated by team tactics?
I do not watch much of it but when I do it seems groups of cars work together. If Alonso is in a single car, is he at a huge disadvantage?


About the only team tactic practiced in IndyCar is "do not crash into a teammate". Maybe for the last race of the season and if a title is on the line, do they actually help each other. But 99% of the time team mates compete against each other as fiercely as if they were on a different team.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:09 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Ooooh... but that is indeed the case. Sadly, the days when Indy featured as many top talents as F1 are long gone. There are very few guys that could compete in F1 and realistically I can think of just the one, and he happens to be an F1 caliber driver but without available seats and considerable backing he made the leap across the pond and looks to be staying for some time. Alonso will be one of the top guys should he run the full season.



Wait, are you talking about being able to just drive in F1 or are you talking about competing with the top guns? I'd say that most or nearly all indy drivers could drive around in an F1 car (lets not forget that guys like Sato, Estiban, Chilton, etc....aren't exactly killing it in indycar). Yes, Rossi was on track to be an F1 driver, but he isn't due to politics, this could probably be said about most drivers that are very good but never make it to F1 (either DTM, Indycar, F2, WEC, etc...)

I'd say given similar equipment guys like Rossi, Dixon, Newgarden, Power, Wickens, etc.... could compete at the highest level against the best in the world. People forget that the F1 problem is "their problem" and not indycars or anyone elses. Lets all me honest, There is no way Bottas is 2 full seconds quicker than a guy like Fernando, but in F1 thats what we get.

In indycar it is a MUCH MUCH better measure of true driving ability. I use to hate the idea of spec racing but as we continue to see huge differences in F1 lap times and no competition and the more I get into Karting and appreciate wheel to wheel racing, the more I like the idea.

When hamilton piped off about Indycar, I loved Kanaan's reply, something like..."in F1 all you have to do is beat 1 guy, your teammate, and he didn't even do that" (this came after he lost to Nico, and obviously Ham is a better driver than TOny, but lets be honest, AMG sure makes the difference to other drivers look much larger than it really is)


Last edited by rodH on Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:14 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
...
My one mild worry is that if Alonso goes over and absolutely cleans up.... it'd reinforce the view that Indycar is a step down from F1, and I personally don't want that to be the case.



That could be the perception, but when you look at it closer, shouldn't that indeed be the case. Anyone that really knows F1 knows he is a top 3 driver in F1. I'd venture to say that in equal equipment he would smash Vettal (Vettal makes wayy too many mistakes) which to me puts one person maybe on his level, Hamilton.

Again, this is an F1 problem where a guy like Alonso SHOULD be winning, all it does is prove what a joke f1 and competition really is.

The comment I made in my post above about Hamilton and Kannan still baffles me that Hamilton believes what he says. He basically said that, how can indycar have any good drivers if someone (Alonso) can just "walk in on a weekend and almost win the indy500". What a complete jackass for saying that. Look at it another way, Alonso spent a full month in the USA, was on the simulator all the time, had a personal indy500 coach (DeFerren) and got extra practice and was in one of the very best cars. He probably practiced and prepped more for the race than Hamilton has for any single one of his races. In this case shouldn't we expect one of the very best drivers in the world to "compete". He totally downplayed Alonso's hard work and preparation. And like I said, it is an F1 problem that guys like Alonso are 3 seconds back, it isn't an indycar problem. He should be at the front


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:07 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
moby wrote:
How much of a win is dictated by team tactics?
I do not watch much of it but when I do it seems groups of cars work together. If Alonso is in a single car, is he at a huge disadvantage?


About the only team tactic practiced in IndyCar is "do not crash into a teammate". Maybe for the last race of the season and if a title is on the line, do they actually help each other. But 99% of the time team mates compete against each other as fiercely as if they were on a different team.


I thought I remembered cars taking turns to lead and allow teammates to slipstream to save a lap of fuel etc?
Never really been into it so I probably have it wrong.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:10 pm 
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moby wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
moby wrote:
How much of a win is dictated by team tactics?
I do not watch much of it but when I do it seems groups of cars work together. If Alonso is in a single car, is he at a huge disadvantage?


About the only team tactic practiced in IndyCar is "do not crash into a teammate". Maybe for the last race of the season and if a title is on the line, do they actually help each other. But 99% of the time team mates compete against each other as fiercely as if they were on a different team.


I thought I remembered cars taking turns to lead and allow teammates to slipstream to save a lap of fuel etc?
Never really been into it so I probably have it wrong.


on the long ovals this happens a bit but not nearly as much as F1. Also, once it gets close to the end of the race it is everyone for themselves, theres no "pull over to let Hamilton by" garbage. There isn't a constructors or a team championship, so while the team mates will help each other with set up and feedback to a certain extent, it is still a very individual race. You would never see what we saw in Spa with Kimi, happen with indycar.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:24 am 
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Things have hit a big bump in the road.

Alonso's Indycar plans include being on the Andretti team. The Andretti Indycar team uses Honda engines. Honda still remember and smart from Alonso's criticism of their Formula One engines. Honda do not want to supply engines to Alonso.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Things have hit a big bump in the road.

Alonso's Indycar plans include being on the Andretti team. The Andretti Indycar team uses Honda engines. Honda still remember and smart from Alonso's criticism of their Formula One engines. Honda do not want to supply engines to Alonso.


I thought that Honda said they didn't have a problem with FA driving a Honda engine and that the only thing that might prevent them to do so was that they had already hit the limit as to how many teams they could supply. Has this changed? Did they come out and say they did not want to supply FA with an engine although they could, capacity wise?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:15 pm 
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moby wrote:
How much of a win is dictated by team tactics?
I do not watch much of it but when I do it seems groups of cars work together. If Alonso is in a single car, is he at a huge disadvantage?

Whenever I've watched the road races are dictated by SC lotteries.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:19 pm 
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cuco wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Things have hit a big bump in the road.

Alonso's Indycar plans include being on the Andretti team. The Andretti Indycar team uses Honda engines. Honda still remember and smart from Alonso's criticism of their Formula One engines. Honda do not want to supply engines to Alonso.


I thought that Honda said they didn't have a problem with FA driving a Honda engine and that the only thing that might prevent them to do so was that they had already hit the limit as to how many teams they could supply. Has this changed? Did they come out and say they did not want to supply FA with an engine although they could, capacity wise?

https://www.motorsport.com/indycar/news ... -/3177161/

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:29 pm 
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rodH wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Ooooh... but that is indeed the case. Sadly, the days when Indy featured as many top talents as F1 are long gone. There are very few guys that could compete in F1 and realistically I can think of just the one, and he happens to be an F1 caliber driver but without available seats and considerable backing he made the leap across the pond and looks to be staying for some time. Alonso will be one of the top guys should he run the full season.



Wait, are you talking about being able to just drive in F1 or are you talking about competing with the top guns? I'd say that most or nearly all indy drivers could drive around in an F1 car (lets not forget that guys like Sato, Estiban, Chilton, etc....aren't exactly killing it in indycar). Yes, Rossi was on track to be an F1 driver, but he isn't due to politics, this could probably be said about most drivers that are very good but never make it to F1 (either DTM, Indycar, F2, WEC, etc...)

I'd say given similar equipment guys like Rossi, Dixon, Newgarden, Power, Wickens, etc.... could compete at the highest level against the best in the world. People forget that the F1 problem is "their problem" and not indycars or anyone elses. Lets all me honest, There is no way Bottas is 2 full seconds quicker than a guy like Fernando, but in F1 thats what we get.

In indycar it is a MUCH MUCH better measure of true driving ability. I use to hate the idea of spec racing but as we continue to see huge differences in F1 lap times and no competition and the more I get into Karting and appreciate wheel to wheel racing, the more I like the idea.

When hamilton piped off about Indycar, I loved Kanaan's reply, something like..."in F1 all you have to do is beat 1 guy, your teammate, and he didn't even do that" (this came after he lost to Nico, and obviously Ham is a better driver than TOny, but lets be honest, AMG sure makes the difference to other drivers look much larger than it really is)


I agree. There are several Indy car drivers who could be competitive in F1, not just one. Also there are some F1 drivers who could be competitive in Indy Cars. Yes, Alonso could come to the US and compete for wins, no doubt. However, Alonso is the best driver in F1 in my opinion, so it would not be a shock nor should anyone feel that if had had success all F1 drivers would as well.
There is a tendency for F1 fans to think our drivers are the best in the world...period. some might be, most not. They are who we are familiar with and of course we want to think them the best as it fits our view of F1. Reality suggests that there are likely many drivers in many different series around the world who could match up with most F1 drivers in similar situations.
I shall now seek out my helmet and armor.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:09 am 
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pokerman wrote:
moby wrote:
How much of a win is dictated by team tactics?
I do not watch much of it but when I do it seems groups of cars work together. If Alonso is in a single car, is he at a huge disadvantage?

Whenever I've watched the road races are dictated by SC lotteries.

Not any more than F1 races are. We had something like 4 races to start this year that were all dictated by safety cars.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:41 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
moby wrote:
How much of a win is dictated by team tactics?
I do not watch much of it but when I do it seems groups of cars work together. If Alonso is in a single car, is he at a huge disadvantage?

Whenever I've watched the road races are dictated by SC lotteries.

Not any more than F1 races are. We had something like 4 races to start this year that were all dictated by safety cars.

I'm talking about the field getting totally mixed up, the leader falling down to 9th place, a midfield car leading the race and all the places in between similarly mixed up.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:46 pm 
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Blake wrote:
rodH wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Ooooh... but that is indeed the case. Sadly, the days when Indy featured as many top talents as F1 are long gone. There are very few guys that could compete in F1 and realistically I can think of just the one, and he happens to be an F1 caliber driver but without available seats and considerable backing he made the leap across the pond and looks to be staying for some time. Alonso will be one of the top guys should he run the full season.



Wait, are you talking about being able to just drive in F1 or are you talking about competing with the top guns? I'd say that most or nearly all indy drivers could drive around in an F1 car (lets not forget that guys like Sato, Estiban, Chilton, etc....aren't exactly killing it in indycar). Yes, Rossi was on track to be an F1 driver, but he isn't due to politics, this could probably be said about most drivers that are very good but never make it to F1 (either DTM, Indycar, F2, WEC, etc...)

I'd say given similar equipment guys like Rossi, Dixon, Newgarden, Power, Wickens, etc.... could compete at the highest level against the best in the world. People forget that the F1 problem is "their problem" and not indycars or anyone elses. Lets all me honest, There is no way Bottas is 2 full seconds quicker than a guy like Fernando, but in F1 thats what we get.

In indycar it is a MUCH MUCH better measure of true driving ability. I use to hate the idea of spec racing but as we continue to see huge differences in F1 lap times and no competition and the more I get into Karting and appreciate wheel to wheel racing, the more I like the idea.

When hamilton piped off about Indycar, I loved Kanaan's reply, something like..."in F1 all you have to do is beat 1 guy, your teammate, and he didn't even do that" (this came after he lost to Nico, and obviously Ham is a better driver than TOny, but lets be honest, AMG sure makes the difference to other drivers look much larger than it really is)


I agree. There are several Indy car drivers who could be competitive in F1, not just one. Also there are some F1 drivers who could be competitive in Indy Cars. Yes, Alonso could come to the US and compete for wins, no doubt. However, Alonso is the best driver in F1 in my opinion, so it would not be a shock nor should anyone feel that if had had success all F1 drivers would as well.
There is a tendency for F1 fans to think our drivers are the best in the world...period. some might be, most not. They are who we are familiar with and of course we want to think them the best as it fits our view of F1. Reality suggests that there are likely many drivers in many different series around the world who could match up with most F1 drivers in similar situations.
I shall now seek out my helmet and armor.
;)

There are Indycar drivers that could run in the midfield which ones could compete on level terms with the very best F1 drivers, then looking at the midfield drivers in Indycars they simply would not make it in F1.

As an example of the levels Bourdais came into F1 and got trounced by a F1 novice called Vettel.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
rodH wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Ooooh... but that is indeed the case. Sadly, the days when Indy featured as many top talents as F1 are long gone. There are very few guys that could compete in F1 and realistically I can think of just the one, and he happens to be an F1 caliber driver but without available seats and considerable backing he made the leap across the pond and looks to be staying for some time. Alonso will be one of the top guys should he run the full season.



Wait, are you talking about being able to just drive in F1 or are you talking about competing with the top guns? I'd say that most or nearly all indy drivers could drive around in an F1 car (lets not forget that guys like Sato, Estiban, Chilton, etc....aren't exactly killing it in indycar). Yes, Rossi was on track to be an F1 driver, but he isn't due to politics, this could probably be said about most drivers that are very good but never make it to F1 (either DTM, Indycar, F2, WEC, etc...)

I'd say given similar equipment guys like Rossi, Dixon, Newgarden, Power, Wickens, etc.... could compete at the highest level against the best in the world. People forget that the F1 problem is "their problem" and not indycars or anyone elses. Lets all me honest, There is no way Bottas is 2 full seconds quicker than a guy like Fernando, but in F1 thats what we get.

In indycar it is a MUCH MUCH better measure of true driving ability. I use to hate the idea of spec racing but as we continue to see huge differences in F1 lap times and no competition and the more I get into Karting and appreciate wheel to wheel racing, the more I like the idea.

When hamilton piped off about Indycar, I loved Kanaan's reply, something like..."in F1 all you have to do is beat 1 guy, your teammate, and he didn't even do that" (this came after he lost to Nico, and obviously Ham is a better driver than TOny, but lets be honest, AMG sure makes the difference to other drivers look much larger than it really is)


I agree. There are several Indy car drivers who could be competitive in F1, not just one. Also there are some F1 drivers who could be competitive in Indy Cars. Yes, Alonso could come to the US and compete for wins, no doubt. However, Alonso is the best driver in F1 in my opinion, so it would not be a shock nor should anyone feel that if had had success all F1 drivers would as well.
There is a tendency for F1 fans to think our drivers are the best in the world...period. some might be, most not. They are who we are familiar with and of course we want to think them the best as it fits our view of F1. Reality suggests that there are likely many drivers in many different series around the world who could match up with most F1 drivers in similar situations.
I shall now seek out my helmet and armor.
;)

There are Indycar drivers that could run in the midfield which ones could compete on level terms with the very best F1 drivers, then looking at the midfield drivers in Indycars they simply would not make it in F1.

As an example of the levels Bourdais came into F1 and got trounced by a F1 novice called Vettel.



So Bourdais = Raikkonnen then?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:29 pm 
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Herb wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
rodH wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Ooooh... but that is indeed the case. Sadly, the days when Indy featured as many top talents as F1 are long gone. There are very few guys that could compete in F1 and realistically I can think of just the one, and he happens to be an F1 caliber driver but without available seats and considerable backing he made the leap across the pond and looks to be staying for some time. Alonso will be one of the top guys should he run the full season.



Wait, are you talking about being able to just drive in F1 or are you talking about competing with the top guns? I'd say that most or nearly all indy drivers could drive around in an F1 car (lets not forget that guys like Sato, Estiban, Chilton, etc....aren't exactly killing it in indycar). Yes, Rossi was on track to be an F1 driver, but he isn't due to politics, this could probably be said about most drivers that are very good but never make it to F1 (either DTM, Indycar, F2, WEC, etc...)

I'd say given similar equipment guys like Rossi, Dixon, Newgarden, Power, Wickens, etc.... could compete at the highest level against the best in the world. People forget that the F1 problem is "their problem" and not indycars or anyone elses. Lets all me honest, There is no way Bottas is 2 full seconds quicker than a guy like Fernando, but in F1 thats what we get.

In indycar it is a MUCH MUCH better measure of true driving ability. I use to hate the idea of spec racing but as we continue to see huge differences in F1 lap times and no competition and the more I get into Karting and appreciate wheel to wheel racing, the more I like the idea.

When hamilton piped off about Indycar, I loved Kanaan's reply, something like..."in F1 all you have to do is beat 1 guy, your teammate, and he didn't even do that" (this came after he lost to Nico, and obviously Ham is a better driver than TOny, but lets be honest, AMG sure makes the difference to other drivers look much larger than it really is)


I agree. There are several Indy car drivers who could be competitive in F1, not just one. Also there are some F1 drivers who could be competitive in Indy Cars. Yes, Alonso could come to the US and compete for wins, no doubt. However, Alonso is the best driver in F1 in my opinion, so it would not be a shock nor should anyone feel that if had had success all F1 drivers would as well.
There is a tendency for F1 fans to think our drivers are the best in the world...period. some might be, most not. They are who we are familiar with and of course we want to think them the best as it fits our view of F1. Reality suggests that there are likely many drivers in many different series around the world who could match up with most F1 drivers in similar situations.
I shall now seek out my helmet and armor.
;)

There are Indycar drivers that could run in the midfield which ones could compete on level terms with the very best F1 drivers, then looking at the midfield drivers in Indycars they simply would not make it in F1.

As an example of the levels Bourdais came into F1 and got trounced by a F1 novice called Vettel.



So Bourdais = Raikkonnen then?

I guess you missed the part about Vettel being a F1 novice, and then to expand on that in the second season Bourdais was getting beat easily by a rookie called Sebastien Buemi and got dropped mid season.

The present level of F1 is incredibly high even Vettel himself maybe seen as only the 4th best/fastest driver, this the level I don't see any of the top Indycar drivers being able to compete against, however that doesn't mean they wouldn't make decent F1 drivers.

If I look at Alexander Rossi I don't understand why he never got picked up by the Haas F1 team if not just initially as a reserve driver, instead they went with the talent that is Gutierrez.

He had just finished second in GP2 and had earned his F1 spurs so to speak, in the few outings he did have at the back of the grid he looked quite respectable and now he's one of the top drivers in Indycars.

Given Liberty Media's wish to increase American interest in F1 I can't understand why something is not being done to try and get him into F1, presently both Haas drivers look a bit sketchy, so give Hass a bung and get him in there.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:37 pm 
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I missed nothing, I was being flippant.

But comparing drivers from 10 years ago is hardly an effective way of comparing series.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
cuco wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Things have hit a big bump in the road.

Alonso's Indycar plans include being on the Andretti team. The Andretti Indycar team uses Honda engines. Honda still remember and smart from Alonso's criticism of their Formula One engines. Honda do not want to supply engines to Alonso.


I thought that Honda said they didn't have a problem with FA driving a Honda engine and that the only thing that might prevent them to do so was that they had already hit the limit as to how many teams they could supply. Has this changed? Did they come out and say they did not want to supply FA with an engine although they could, capacity wise?

https://www.motorsport.com/indycar/news ... -/3177161/

It's almost poetic. Alonso has managed to burn bridges in a series that he has never even competed in...


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:59 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
I agree. There are several Indy car drivers who could be competitive in F1, not just one. Also there are some F1 drivers who could be competitive in Indy Cars. Yes, Alonso could come to the US and compete for wins, no doubt. However, Alonso is the best driver in F1 in my opinion, so it would not be a shock nor should anyone feel that if had had success all F1 drivers would as well.

There are Indycar drivers that could run in the midfield which ones could compete on level terms with the very best F1 drivers, then looking at the midfield drivers in Indycars they simply would not make it in F1.

As an example of the levels Bourdais came into F1 and got trounced by a F1 novice called Vettel.

First off, I do agree with you on the issue of the midfield drivers in IndyCar being too weak for the F1 grid.

That said, why is it that mediocre F1 drivers who go to IndyCar become mediocre IndyCar drivers? If the F1 field was as superior as you say, why didn't the likes of Sato become top drivers in Indy? Why wasn't Montoya - a high tier two or even tier one driver in F1 - the clear best driver while he was racing in IndyCar, as opposed to simply one of the best?

I believe that Alonso or Hamilton are better than any current Indy drivers, true. Verstappen is probably also quicker than any of them, although he'd kill himself in IndyCar (probably quite literally) so I wouldn't say he's actually better. Vettel may be better. But I personally think that only Hamilton and Alonso are actually better than the best in IndyCar. I'd give Dixon or Power (in their prime) decent odds going up against Vettel. I think Rossi or Newgarden would do the same or better than Bottas.

Obviously, none of this can be proven. But if Alonso goes to IndyCar and does anything other than dominate, the theory of IndyCar drivers being solidly below F1 drivers will be pretty much out the window.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:06 pm 
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Blake wrote:
rodH wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Ooooh... but that is indeed the case. Sadly, the days when Indy featured as many top talents as F1 are long gone. There are very few guys that could compete in F1 and realistically I can think of just the one, and he happens to be an F1 caliber driver but without available seats and considerable backing he made the leap across the pond and looks to be staying for some time. Alonso will be one of the top guys should he run the full season.



Wait, are you talking about being able to just drive in F1 or are you talking about competing with the top guns? I'd say that most or nearly all indy drivers could drive around in an F1 car (lets not forget that guys like Sato, Estiban, Chilton, etc....aren't exactly killing it in indycar). Yes, Rossi was on track to be an F1 driver, but he isn't due to politics, this could probably be said about most drivers that are very good but never make it to F1 (either DTM, Indycar, F2, WEC, etc...)

I'd say given similar equipment guys like Rossi, Dixon, Newgarden, Power, Wickens, etc.... could compete at the highest level against the best in the world. People forget that the F1 problem is "their problem" and not indycars or anyone elses. Lets all me honest, There is no way Bottas is 2 full seconds quicker than a guy like Fernando, but in F1 thats what we get.

In indycar it is a MUCH MUCH better measure of true driving ability. I use to hate the idea of spec racing but as we continue to see huge differences in F1 lap times and no competition and the more I get into Karting and appreciate wheel to wheel racing, the more I like the idea.

When hamilton piped off about Indycar, I loved Kanaan's reply, something like..."in F1 all you have to do is beat 1 guy, your teammate, and he didn't even do that" (this came after he lost to Nico, and obviously Ham is a better driver than TOny, but lets be honest, AMG sure makes the difference to other drivers look much larger than it really is)


I agree. There are several Indy car drivers who could be competitive in F1, not just one. Also there are some F1 drivers who could be competitive in Indy Cars. Yes, Alonso could come to the US and compete for wins, no doubt. However, Alonso is the best driver in F1 in my opinion, so it would not be a shock nor should anyone feel that if had had success all F1 drivers would as well.
There is a tendency for F1 fans to think our drivers are the best in the world...period. some might be, most not. They are who we are familiar with and of course we want to think them the best as it fits our view of F1. Reality suggests that there are likely many drivers in many different series around the world who could match up with most F1 drivers in similar situations.
I shall now seek out my helmet and armor.
;)


Do you think the best IndyCar drivers could come to F1 and drive a Mercedes or Ferrari and immediately compare well to Hamilton or Vettel?

I don't watch IndyCar so I'm being genuine. I don't know enough about the drivers to judge myself.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
There are Indycar drivers that could run in the midfield which ones could compete on level terms with the very best F1 drivers, then looking at the midfield drivers in Indycars they simply would not make it in F1.

As an example of the levels Bourdais came into F1 and got trounced by a F1 novice called Vettel.


these are always kind of funny that people, real fans, actually believe this kind of stuff. When will people realize that the vast majority is dictated by the car. Look at Schumi's come back, look at how poorly some of the "mid-field" F1 drivers have done in indycar, look at how several F1 drivers have done in other disciplines (for some reason they don't even "dominate" other forms with similar racecraft.....I am even a Fernando fan and look at his times compared to his teammates who aren't necessarily considered "top level" drivers, go look at the lap times). The problem is that F1 props up who they want and the cars are so unevenly matched that almost the only and best indicator is how you do against your teammate. Its rather sad, really.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:33 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
rodH wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Ooooh... but that is indeed the case. Sadly, the days when Indy featured as many top talents as F1 are long gone. There are very few guys that could compete in F1 and realistically I can think of just the one, and he happens to be an F1 caliber driver but without available seats and considerable backing he made the leap across the pond and looks to be staying for some time. Alonso will be one of the top guys should he run the full season.



Wait, are you talking about being able to just drive in F1 or are you talking about competing with the top guns? I'd say that most or nearly all indy drivers could drive around in an F1 car (lets not forget that guys like Sato, Estiban, Chilton, etc....aren't exactly killing it in indycar). Yes, Rossi was on track to be an F1 driver, but he isn't due to politics, this could probably be said about most drivers that are very good but never make it to F1 (either DTM, Indycar, F2, WEC, etc...)

I'd say given similar equipment guys like Rossi, Dixon, Newgarden, Power, Wickens, etc.... could compete at the highest level against the best in the world. People forget that the F1 problem is "their problem" and not indycars or anyone elses. Lets all me honest, There is no way Bottas is 2 full seconds quicker than a guy like Fernando, but in F1 thats what we get.

In indycar it is a MUCH MUCH better measure of true driving ability. I use to hate the idea of spec racing but as we continue to see huge differences in F1 lap times and no competition and the more I get into Karting and appreciate wheel to wheel racing, the more I like the idea.

When hamilton piped off about Indycar, I loved Kanaan's reply, something like..."in F1 all you have to do is beat 1 guy, your teammate, and he didn't even do that" (this came after he lost to Nico, and obviously Ham is a better driver than TOny, but lets be honest, AMG sure makes the difference to other drivers look much larger than it really is)


I agree. There are several Indy car drivers who could be competitive in F1, not just one. Also there are some F1 drivers who could be competitive in Indy Cars. Yes, Alonso could come to the US and compete for wins, no doubt. However, Alonso is the best driver in F1 in my opinion, so it would not be a shock nor should anyone feel that if had had success all F1 drivers would as well.
There is a tendency for F1 fans to think our drivers are the best in the world...period. some might be, most not. They are who we are familiar with and of course we want to think them the best as it fits our view of F1. Reality suggests that there are likely many drivers in many different series around the world who could match up with most F1 drivers in similar situations.
I shall now seek out my helmet and armor.
;)


Do you think the best IndyCar drivers could come to F1 and drive a Mercedes or Ferrari and immediately compare well to Hamilton or Vettel?

I don't watch IndyCar so I'm being genuine. I don't know enough about the drivers to judge myself.


I think that there are 5-6 guys, Dixon, Newgarden, Power, Wickens, Rossi that could compete with or beat anyone currently in F1 sans maybe Fernando, hamilton and maybe Daniel Ric, Max and Vettal. Even at that, we would never know because the cars are so dang different. Anyone else is probably fair game, but the variability in F1 is so high based on the cars, you never know.

Lets put this another way, do you think that Hamilton in a Williams could beat Ocon (f1 example) or Dixon (indycar example) in the AMG? See, this is what drives me nuts about F1.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:47 pm 
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rodH wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
rodH wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Ooooh... but that is indeed the case. Sadly, the days when Indy featured as many top talents as F1 are long gone. There are very few guys that could compete in F1 and realistically I can think of just the one, and he happens to be an F1 caliber driver but without available seats and considerable backing he made the leap across the pond and looks to be staying for some time. Alonso will be one of the top guys should he run the full season.



Wait, are you talking about being able to just drive in F1 or are you talking about competing with the top guns? I'd say that most or nearly all indy drivers could drive around in an F1 car (lets not forget that guys like Sato, Estiban, Chilton, etc....aren't exactly killing it in indycar). Yes, Rossi was on track to be an F1 driver, but he isn't due to politics, this could probably be said about most drivers that are very good but never make it to F1 (either DTM, Indycar, F2, WEC, etc...)

I'd say given similar equipment guys like Rossi, Dixon, Newgarden, Power, Wickens, etc.... could compete at the highest level against the best in the world. People forget that the F1 problem is "their problem" and not indycars or anyone elses. Lets all me honest, There is no way Bottas is 2 full seconds quicker than a guy like Fernando, but in F1 thats what we get.

In indycar it is a MUCH MUCH better measure of true driving ability. I use to hate the idea of spec racing but as we continue to see huge differences in F1 lap times and no competition and the more I get into Karting and appreciate wheel to wheel racing, the more I like the idea.

When hamilton piped off about Indycar, I loved Kanaan's reply, something like..."in F1 all you have to do is beat 1 guy, your teammate, and he didn't even do that" (this came after he lost to Nico, and obviously Ham is a better driver than TOny, but lets be honest, AMG sure makes the difference to other drivers look much larger than it really is)


I agree. There are several Indy car drivers who could be competitive in F1, not just one. Also there are some F1 drivers who could be competitive in Indy Cars. Yes, Alonso could come to the US and compete for wins, no doubt. However, Alonso is the best driver in F1 in my opinion, so it would not be a shock nor should anyone feel that if had had success all F1 drivers would as well.
There is a tendency for F1 fans to think our drivers are the best in the world...period. some might be, most not. They are who we are familiar with and of course we want to think them the best as it fits our view of F1. Reality suggests that there are likely many drivers in many different series around the world who could match up with most F1 drivers in similar situations.
I shall now seek out my helmet and armor.
;)


Do you think the best IndyCar drivers could come to F1 and drive a Mercedes or Ferrari and immediately compare well to Hamilton or Vettel?

I don't watch IndyCar so I'm being genuine. I don't know enough about the drivers to judge myself.


I think that there are 5-6 guys, Dixon, Newgarden, Power, Wickens, Rossi that could compete with or beat anyone currently in F1 sans maybe Fernando, hamilton and maybe Daniel Ric, Max and Vettal. Even at that, we would never know because the cars are so dang different. Anyone else is probably fair game, but the variability in F1 is so high based on the cars, you never know.

Lets put this another way, do you think that Hamilton in a Williams could beat Ocon (f1 example) or Dixon (indycar example) in the AMG? See, this is what drives me nuts about F1.

If we're being realistic, it's MUCH harder to make it onto the grid in F1 than in IndyCar. I think that the drivers you named are all F1-caliber drivers in that they could compete in the series and probably not embarrass themselves. I also agree that the top 5 F1 drivers are a cut above all of them.

The real question is; how would someone like Dixon, Power or Rossi match up to someone like Perez, Grosjean or Bottas. I struggle to imagine that the Indy guys would be quicker in an F1 car but I don't think they'd be fish out of water either. In IndyCar, I think the upper-middle of the pack F1 drivers would all be at the front for the most part. That doesn't mean they'd necessarily be winning the titles but it means they would be competitive with anyone. Rossi is really an example of this in some ways as he started out in F1 and then went to Indy. He seemed like a pretty solid driver on the F1 grid in the brief time he was there and I think his career in Indy shows that any F1 driver is likely to be quick there.

Now let's talk about the guys further back. Once you get outside the top handful of drivers in IndyCar, there is a steep drop-off in talent IMO. It's very easy to pay your way onto that grid. You don't need billionaires behind you to make it happen. A millionaire will do the trick. In F1 today, as much though we complain about pay drivers, probably only 2-3 guys on the grid should really be described that way and they are also talented enough to be top 10 drivers in IndyCar. Most of the guys out there have enormous talent and even someone like Stroll would probably be very quick compared to the competition in IndyCar. The depth of the field is where F1 leaves IndyCar behind but there are some very talented drivers in that series.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:00 pm 
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Herb wrote:
I missed nothing, I was being flippant.

But comparing drivers from 10 years ago is hardly an effective way of comparing series.

Bourdais and Vettel are still current drivers.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:26 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
I agree. There are several Indy car drivers who could be competitive in F1, not just one. Also there are some F1 drivers who could be competitive in Indy Cars. Yes, Alonso could come to the US and compete for wins, no doubt. However, Alonso is the best driver in F1 in my opinion, so it would not be a shock nor should anyone feel that if had had success all F1 drivers would as well.

There are Indycar drivers that could run in the midfield which ones could compete on level terms with the very best F1 drivers, then looking at the midfield drivers in Indycars they simply would not make it in F1.

As an example of the levels Bourdais came into F1 and got trounced by a F1 novice called Vettel.

First off, I do agree with you on the issue of the midfield drivers in IndyCar being too weak for the F1 grid.

That said, why is it that mediocre F1 drivers who go to IndyCar become mediocre IndyCar drivers? If the F1 field was as superior as you say, why didn't the likes of Sato become top drivers in Indy? Why wasn't Montoya - a high tier two or even tier one driver in F1 - the clear best driver while he was racing in IndyCar, as opposed to simply one of the best?

I believe that Alonso or Hamilton are better than any current Indy drivers, true. Verstappen is probably also quicker than any of them, although he'd kill himself in IndyCar (probably quite literally) so I wouldn't say he's actually better. Vettel may be better. But I personally think that only Hamilton and Alonso are actually better than the best in IndyCar. I'd give Dixon or Power (in their prime) decent odds going up against Vettel. I think Rossi or Newgarden would do the same or better than Bottas.

Obviously, none of this can be proven. But if Alonso goes to IndyCar and does anything other than dominate, the theory of IndyCar drivers being solidly below F1 drivers will be pretty much out the window.

Sato was in F1 mainly because of Honda, they put him in the works car and he got blown out by Button, likewise Montoya left F1 on the back of getting beat by Kimi, so neither were the pinnacle of F1 and even less so in todays grid.

I did say the top drivers may well make good F1 drivers just that the very top guys aren't as good as the very top guys in F1.

Regarding Alonso is it actually possible to dominate the series given the haphazard nature of many races, speedwise will be no problem for him running at or near the front but I ask the question how hard is it to maximise the performance of spec cars as compared to F1 cars.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:31 pm 
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rodH wrote:
pokerman wrote:
There are Indycar drivers that could run in the midfield which ones could compete on level terms with the very best F1 drivers, then looking at the midfield drivers in Indycars they simply would not make it in F1.

As an example of the levels Bourdais came into F1 and got trounced by a F1 novice called Vettel.


these are always kind of funny that people, real fans, actually believe this kind of stuff. When will people realize that the vast majority is dictated by the car. Look at Schumi's come back, look at how poorly some of the "mid-field" F1 drivers have done in indycar, look at how several F1 drivers have done in other disciplines (for some reason they don't even "dominate" other forms with similar racecraft.....I am even a Fernando fan and look at his times compared to his teammates who aren't necessarily considered "top level" drivers, go look at the lap times). The problem is that F1 props up who they want and the cars are so unevenly matched that almost the only and best indicator is how you do against your teammate. Its rather sad, really.

All Bourdias needed to do is beat his teammates then he would have been in a top car, a Red Bull, he had the same chance as Vettel did.

Schumacher's problem in his comeback was not solely the car it was also Rosberg, Rosberg went on to win many races and the WDC.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:12 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Herb wrote:
I missed nothing, I was being flippant.

But comparing drivers from 10 years ago is hardly an effective way of comparing series.

Bourdais and Vettel are still current drivers.


And look how well Bourdais is doing in Indycar, touche


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:28 am 
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rodH wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Herb wrote:
I missed nothing, I was being flippant.

But comparing drivers from 10 years ago is hardly an effective way of comparing series.

Bourdais and Vettel are still current drivers.

And look how well Bourdais is doing in Indycar, touche

Indeed, Bourdais looks no more than a second tier IndyCar driver on today's grid. He was dominant in late-stage CART where the car mattered as much as it does in F1.

sandman1347 wrote:
Rossi is really an example of this in some ways as he started out in F1 and then went to Indy. He seemed like a pretty solid driver on the F1 grid in the brief time he was there and I think his career in Indy shows that any F1 driver is likely to be quick there.

Now let's talk about the guys further back. Once you get outside the top handful of drivers in IndyCar, there is a steep drop-off in talent IMO. It's very easy to pay your way onto that grid. You don't need billionaires behind you to make it happen. A millionaire will do the trick. In F1 today, as much though we complain about pay drivers, probably only 2-3 guys on the grid should really be described that way and they are also talented enough to be top 10 drivers in IndyCar. Most of the guys out there have enormous talent and even someone like Stroll would probably be very quick compared to the competition in IndyCar. The depth of the field is where F1 leaves IndyCar behind but there are some very talented drivers in that series.

It's very hard to say where Rossi placed on the F1 grid, since his only point of comparison was his fellow Manor drivers. What we can say is that - dumped into the car midseason, with very little practice - he was instantly quicker than Stevens, and by quite a margin. Now, Stevens was almost certainly not F1 material, but we can't really say reliably what Rossi's level in F1 would have been like aside from that he was significantly quicker.

I think you're quite right about the gap between the top Indy drivers and the average Indy drivers, and in terms of grid averages there's no question that today's F1 grid is stronger. I think Stroll would be badly exposed on the Indy grid, however. I personally believe that he is currently being badly flattered by a sub-F1 level teammate. Massa was no faster than the best of IndyCar, and he destroyed Stroll.

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