planetf1.com

It is currently Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:14 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5607
Exediron wrote:
rodH wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Herb wrote:
I missed nothing, I was being flippant.

But comparing drivers from 10 years ago is hardly an effective way of comparing series.

Bourdais and Vettel are still current drivers.

And look how well Bourdais is doing in Indycar, touche

Indeed, Bourdais looks no more than a second tier IndyCar driver on today's grid. He was dominant in late-stage CART where the car mattered as much as it does in F1.

sandman1347 wrote:
Rossi is really an example of this in some ways as he started out in F1 and then went to Indy. He seemed like a pretty solid driver on the F1 grid in the brief time he was there and I think his career in Indy shows that any F1 driver is likely to be quick there.

Now let's talk about the guys further back. Once you get outside the top handful of drivers in IndyCar, there is a steep drop-off in talent IMO. It's very easy to pay your way onto that grid. You don't need billionaires behind you to make it happen. A millionaire will do the trick. In F1 today, as much though we complain about pay drivers, probably only 2-3 guys on the grid should really be described that way and they are also talented enough to be top 10 drivers in IndyCar. Most of the guys out there have enormous talent and even someone like Stroll would probably be very quick compared to the competition in IndyCar. The depth of the field is where F1 leaves IndyCar behind but there are some very talented drivers in that series.

It's very hard to say where Rossi placed on the F1 grid, since his only point of comparison was his fellow Manor drivers. What we can say is that - dumped into the car midseason, with very little practice - he was instantly quicker than Stevens, and by quite a margin. Now, Stevens was almost certainly not F1 material, but we can't really say reliably what Rossi's level in F1 would have been like aside from that he was significantly quicker.

I think you're quite right about the gap between the top Indy drivers and the average Indy drivers, and in terms of grid averages there's no question that today's F1 grid is stronger. I think Stroll would be badly exposed on the Indy grid, however. I personally believe that he is currently being badly flattered by a sub-F1 level teammate. Massa was no faster than the best of IndyCar, and he destroyed Stroll.

I mostly rate Rossi based on his time battling Vandoorne in GP2. Stoff had a dominant year but Rossi had a very strong last few races and he had a few wins in his runner up campaign. Always thought he had what it took to make it in F1 as a journeyman; just never really got the chance.

Not sure I agree with you about Stroll. I don't think you could find 10 IndyCar drivers better than him. He had a rough year as an 18 year old F1 rookie but what 18 year old wouldn't? Not everyone can be Max. His daddy should have bought him a GP2 seat first because I really think he was brought into F1 prematurely and was just hanging on for dear life half the time. He did have a couple of bright spots like the front row qualy in Italy and the podium in Baku. It's hard to assess him this year but he hasn't been very impressive relative to Sirotkin. He seems to be better in the races but worse in qualifying. I still think he's significantly better than the average IndyCar driver.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:11 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6210
Location: Michigan, USA
sandman1347 wrote:
Not sure I agree with you about Stroll. I don't think you could find 10 IndyCar drivers better than him. He had a rough year as an 18 year old F1 rookie but what 18 year old wouldn't? Not everyone can be Max. His daddy should have bought him a GP2 seat first because I really think he was brought into F1 prematurely and was just hanging on for dear life half the time. He did have a couple of bright spots like the front row qualy in Italy and the podium in Baku. It's hard to assess him this year but he hasn't been very impressive relative to Sirotkin. He seems to be better in the races but worse in qualifying. I still think he's significantly better than the average IndyCar driver.

Stroll might be about average in IndyCar - whereas I would rate him in the bottom 3 of F1 - but I don't think he would win a race without exceptional luck.

The way I generally see it, there's a group of drivers in IndyCar who are the serious challengers - about six to eight drivers - and then there's a whole bunch of grid fillers who simply aren't. Stroll might be better than the grid fillers, but against the serious challengers - Rossi, Dixon, Newgarden, etc. - I think he would look quite poor.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5607
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Not sure I agree with you about Stroll. I don't think you could find 10 IndyCar drivers better than him. He had a rough year as an 18 year old F1 rookie but what 18 year old wouldn't? Not everyone can be Max. His daddy should have bought him a GP2 seat first because I really think he was brought into F1 prematurely and was just hanging on for dear life half the time. He did have a couple of bright spots like the front row qualy in Italy and the podium in Baku. It's hard to assess him this year but he hasn't been very impressive relative to Sirotkin. He seems to be better in the races but worse in qualifying. I still think he's significantly better than the average IndyCar driver.

Stroll might be about average in IndyCar - whereas I would rate him in the bottom 3 of F1 - but I don't think he would win a race without exceptional luck.

The way I generally see it, there's a group of drivers in IndyCar who are the serious challengers - about six to eight drivers - and then there's a whole bunch of grid fillers who simply aren't. Stroll might be better than the grid fillers, but against the serious challengers - Rossi, Dixon, Newgarden, etc. - I think he would look quite poor.

Yeah I would tend to agree with that at the moment; though with Stroll's age, it's possible he will improve significantly. Let's see how he does next year in the Force India. For me, 2019 is the year he needs to show that he's more than just a pay driver.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:04 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6210
Location: Michigan, USA
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Not sure I agree with you about Stroll. I don't think you could find 10 IndyCar drivers better than him. He had a rough year as an 18 year old F1 rookie but what 18 year old wouldn't? Not everyone can be Max. His daddy should have bought him a GP2 seat first because I really think he was brought into F1 prematurely and was just hanging on for dear life half the time. He did have a couple of bright spots like the front row qualy in Italy and the podium in Baku. It's hard to assess him this year but he hasn't been very impressive relative to Sirotkin. He seems to be better in the races but worse in qualifying. I still think he's significantly better than the average IndyCar driver.

Stroll might be about average in IndyCar - whereas I would rate him in the bottom 3 of F1 - but I don't think he would win a race without exceptional luck.

The way I generally see it, there's a group of drivers in IndyCar who are the serious challengers - about six to eight drivers - and then there's a whole bunch of grid fillers who simply aren't. Stroll might be better than the grid fillers, but against the serious challengers - Rossi, Dixon, Newgarden, etc. - I think he would look quite poor.

Yeah I would tend to agree with that at the moment; though with Stroll's age, it's possible he will improve significantly. Let's see how he does next year in the Force India. For me, 2019 is the year he needs to show that he's more than just a pay driver.

Agreed. And since it looks like he's going to be going up against either Ocon or Perez, we'll more than likely have a good idea of just how decent Stroll is.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28701
rodH wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Herb wrote:
I missed nothing, I was being flippant.

But comparing drivers from 10 years ago is hardly an effective way of comparing series.

Bourdais and Vettel are still current drivers.


And look how well Bourdais is doing in Indycar, touche

Yet he's still there, spec cars but are the teams actually equal, It seems like Alonso will not drive just for any team?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28701
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
rodH wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Herb wrote:
I missed nothing, I was being flippant.

But comparing drivers from 10 years ago is hardly an effective way of comparing series.

Bourdais and Vettel are still current drivers.

And look how well Bourdais is doing in Indycar, touche

Indeed, Bourdais looks no more than a second tier IndyCar driver on today's grid. He was dominant in late-stage CART where the car mattered as much as it does in F1.

sandman1347 wrote:
Rossi is really an example of this in some ways as he started out in F1 and then went to Indy. He seemed like a pretty solid driver on the F1 grid in the brief time he was there and I think his career in Indy shows that any F1 driver is likely to be quick there.

Now let's talk about the guys further back. Once you get outside the top handful of drivers in IndyCar, there is a steep drop-off in talent IMO. It's very easy to pay your way onto that grid. You don't need billionaires behind you to make it happen. A millionaire will do the trick. In F1 today, as much though we complain about pay drivers, probably only 2-3 guys on the grid should really be described that way and they are also talented enough to be top 10 drivers in IndyCar. Most of the guys out there have enormous talent and even someone like Stroll would probably be very quick compared to the competition in IndyCar. The depth of the field is where F1 leaves IndyCar behind but there are some very talented drivers in that series.

It's very hard to say where Rossi placed on the F1 grid, since his only point of comparison was his fellow Manor drivers. What we can say is that - dumped into the car midseason, with very little practice - he was instantly quicker than Stevens, and by quite a margin. Now, Stevens was almost certainly not F1 material, but we can't really say reliably what Rossi's level in F1 would have been like aside from that he was significantly quicker.

I think you're quite right about the gap between the top Indy drivers and the average Indy drivers, and in terms of grid averages there's no question that today's F1 grid is stronger. I think Stroll would be badly exposed on the Indy grid, however. I personally believe that he is currently being badly flattered by a sub-F1 level teammate. Massa was no faster than the best of IndyCar, and he destroyed Stroll.

I mostly rate Rossi based on his time battling Vandoorne in GP2. Stoff had a dominant year but Rossi had a very strong last few races and he had a few wins in his runner up campaign. Always thought he had what it took to make it in F1 as a journeyman; just never really got the chance.

Not sure I agree with you about Stroll. I don't think you could find 10 IndyCar drivers better than him. He had a rough year as an 18 year old F1 rookie but what 18 year old wouldn't? Not everyone can be Max. His daddy should have bought him a GP2 seat first because I really think he was brought into F1 prematurely and was just hanging on for dear life half the time. He did have a couple of bright spots like the front row qualy in Italy and the podium in Baku. It's hard to assess him this year but he hasn't been very impressive relative to Sirotkin. He seems to be better in the races but worse in qualifying. I still think he's significantly better than the average IndyCar driver.

I heard the Stroll's did not want to risk Lance in GP2 as soon as they got enough super license points then they headed straight for F1.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:39 am
Posts: 772
Honda won't supply engines to a team that wants to field Alonso.

Andretti is some how involved with the Harding team but I think they use Chevrolet engines and Andretti use Honda ones.

Also Fernando will announce his 2019 plans in October he said.

So would a Harding-McLaren backed Andretti run car be the answer? interesting stuff...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28701
paulsf1fix wrote:
Honda won't supply engines to a team that wants to field Alonso.

Andretti is some how involved with the Harding team but I think they use Chevrolet engines and Andretti use Honda ones.

Also Fernando will announce his 2019 plans in October he said.

So would a Harding-McLaren backed Andretti run car be the answer? interesting stuff...

I hope we are not talking of a burned bridge here because Alonso never does that? :)

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:50 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6210
Location: Michigan, USA
pokerman wrote:
paulsf1fix wrote:
Honda won't supply engines to a team that wants to field Alonso.

I hope we are not talking of a burned bridge here because Alonso never does that? :)

It's probably at least in part due to his acrimonious past with Honda, but from what I've read the fact that he's currently a Toyota driver in LMP1 has a lot more to do with it. They don't want to supply a driver of their arch-rival in another series.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28701
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
paulsf1fix wrote:
Honda won't supply engines to a team that wants to field Alonso.

I hope we are not talking of a burned bridge here because Alonso never does that? :)

It's probably at least in part due to his acrimonious past with Honda, but from what I've read the fact that he's currently a Toyota driver in LMP1 has a lot more to do with it. They don't want to supply a driver of their arch-rival in another series.

Yes that doesn't help either, it will be interesting to see if Honda will supply him with engines in 2020 if he is in Indycars?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 5012
pokerman wrote:
cuco wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Things have hit a big bump in the road.

Alonso's Indycar plans include being on the Andretti team. The Andretti Indycar team uses Honda engines. Honda still remember and smart from Alonso's criticism of their Formula One engines. Honda do not want to supply engines to Alonso.


I thought that Honda said they didn't have a problem with FA driving a Honda engine and that the only thing that might prevent them to do so was that they had already hit the limit as to how many teams they could supply. Has this changed? Did they come out and say they did not want to supply FA with an engine although they could, capacity wise?

https://www.motorsport.com/indycar/news ... -/3177161/


In the original Autosport piece there's no quotes about Honda not wanting Alonso, just quotes from Yamamoto and Andretti saying the exact opposite and they've no problem with him at all so I don't think the F1 issue has anything to do with it.

Driving for Toyota obviously does though for 2019 and I've yet to see the same sort of "We've no problem working with..." quotes about McLaren from HPD like we have with Alonso and it's a McLaren backed project Alonso wants to run with so that could be a snag too.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 5012
Apparently AMuS wrote a couple of days ago that he'll only do the Indy500 next year with Andretti-Honda. Didn't like the Road Course car configuration, felt it was sluggish with the handling and lacked power. Will test for McLaren and may do some FE to fatten out the calendar along with his WEC duties next year instead.

I'll hunt around for the link later but not sure how much I'm buying of that tbh. He seemed positive about his recent test although admittedly that could be just for show.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28701
Lotus49 wrote:
Apparently AMuS wrote a couple of days ago that he'll only do the Indy500 next year with Andretti-Honda. Didn't like the Road Course car configuration, felt it was sluggish with the handling and lacked power. Will test for McLaren and may do some FE to fatten out the calendar along with his WEC duties next year instead.

I'll hunt around for the link later but not sure how much I'm buying of that tbh. He seemed positive about his recent test although admittedly that could be just for show.

It sounds feasible to me, the cars are going to feel fast on ovals but then sluggish on road courses compared to F1 cars.

That's why I asked the question how much of an extra difference can Alonso make in such cars which I presume are easier to drive than F1 cars?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 5012
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Apparently AMuS wrote a couple of days ago that he'll only do the Indy500 next year with Andretti-Honda. Didn't like the Road Course car configuration, felt it was sluggish with the handling and lacked power. Will test for McLaren and may do some FE to fatten out the calendar along with his WEC duties next year instead.

I'll hunt around for the link later but not sure how much I'm buying of that tbh. He seemed positive about his recent test although admittedly that could be just for show.

It sounds feasible to me, the cars are going to feel fast on ovals but then sluggish on road courses compared to F1 cars.

That's why I asked the question how much of an extra difference can Alonso make in such cars which I presume are easier to drive than F1 cars?


I dunno, I'm not sure if they will be easier tbh. Super Formula cars are apparently harder to drive than F1 according to Stoff,Gasly and I think K-Mag that said it, mainly because of no power steering but I'm unsure about IndyCar with regards to that.

There's not many that think F1 cars are hard to drive to be fair. Mega grip, the most d/f, pretty much perfect driveability,balance and power steering won't make it too tricky compared to some other series with less advanced cars.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28701
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Apparently AMuS wrote a couple of days ago that he'll only do the Indy500 next year with Andretti-Honda. Didn't like the Road Course car configuration, felt it was sluggish with the handling and lacked power. Will test for McLaren and may do some FE to fatten out the calendar along with his WEC duties next year instead.

I'll hunt around for the link later but not sure how much I'm buying of that tbh. He seemed positive about his recent test although admittedly that could be just for show.

It sounds feasible to me, the cars are going to feel fast on ovals but then sluggish on road courses compared to F1 cars.

That's why I asked the question how much of an extra difference can Alonso make in such cars which I presume are easier to drive than F1 cars?


I dunno, I'm not sure if they will be easier tbh. Super Formula cars are apparently harder to drive than F1 according to Stoff,Gasly and I think K-Mag that said it, mainly because of no power steering but I'm unsure about IndyCar with regards to that.

There's not many that think F1 cars are hard to drive to be fair. Mega grip, the most d/f, pretty much perfect driveability,balance and power steering won't make it too tricky compared to some other series with less advanced cars.

I mean harder to find the limit, I believe super formula cars corner faster than Indycars?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6422
Location: Nebraska, USA
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Apparently AMuS wrote a couple of days ago that he'll only do the Indy500 next year with Andretti-Honda. Didn't like the Road Course car configuration, felt it was sluggish with the handling and lacked power. Will test for McLaren and may do some FE to fatten out the calendar along with his WEC duties next year instead.

I'll hunt around for the link later but not sure how much I'm buying of that tbh. He seemed positive about his recent test although admittedly that could be just for show.

It sounds feasible to me, the cars are going to feel fast on ovals but then sluggish on road courses compared to F1 cars.

That's why I asked the question how much of an extra difference can Alonso make in such cars which I presume are easier to drive than F1 cars?


I dunno, I'm not sure if they will be easier tbh. Super Formula cars are apparently harder to drive than F1 according to Stoff,Gasly and I think K-Mag that said it, mainly because of no power steering but I'm unsure about IndyCar with regards to that.

There's not many that think F1 cars are hard to drive.


I believe that even some F1 drivers had made reference to this about the F1 cars.

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28701
Blake wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Apparently AMuS wrote a couple of days ago that he'll only do the Indy500 next year with Andretti-Honda. Didn't like the Road Course car configuration, felt it was sluggish with the handling and lacked power. Will test for McLaren and may do some FE to fatten out the calendar along with his WEC duties next year instead.

I'll hunt around for the link later but not sure how much I'm buying of that tbh. He seemed positive about his recent test although admittedly that could be just for show.

It sounds feasible to me, the cars are going to feel fast on ovals but then sluggish on road courses compared to F1 cars.

That's why I asked the question how much of an extra difference can Alonso make in such cars which I presume are easier to drive than F1 cars?


I dunno, I'm not sure if they will be easier tbh. Super Formula cars are apparently harder to drive than F1 according to Stoff,Gasly and I think K-Mag that said it, mainly because of no power steering but I'm unsure about IndyCar with regards to that.

There's not many that think F1 cars are hard to drive.


I believe that even some F1 drivers had made reference to this about the F1 cars.

The 2014-16 cars not the present cars because they are that much quicker, Alonso has said he enjoys driving the cars probably because they are more challenging, an Indycar not so much in comparison it seems?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6422
Location: Nebraska, USA
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:


There's not many that think F1 cars are hard to drive.


I believe that even some F1 drivers had made reference to this about the F1 cars.

The 2014-16 cars not the present cars because they are that much quicker, Alonso has said he enjoys driving the cars probably because they are more challenging, an Indycar not so much in comparison it seems?


Alonso put down the IndyCar as not being challenging to drive? When and where did he say that?

Do you know for sure that the drivers who said that F1 cars were not that hard to drive have changed their mind with the 2017 & 2018 cars? Where do I find verification of their having changed their stance?

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:08 am
Posts: 27
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:


There's not many that think F1 cars are hard to drive.


I believe that even some F1 drivers had made reference to this about the F1 cars.

The 2014-16 cars not the present cars because they are that much quicker, Alonso has said he enjoys driving the cars probably because they are more challenging, an Indycar not so much in comparison it seems?


Alonso put down the IndyCar as not being challenging to drive? When and where did he say that?

Do you know for sure that the drivers who said that F1 cars were not that hard to drive have changed their mind with the 2017 & 2018 cars? Where do I find verification of their having changed their stance?


Here are a few links that may be relevant:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... CMEkW.html

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... ndo-alonso

What I see here being confused is what I see confused on pretty much every motorsport forum: how difficult the vehicle is to manipulate/keep on track/get to do what you want with the physical experience on or in the vehicle. Admittedly, the demarcation between the two can be subtle and they do shade into the other; and yet the they ARE distinguishable. The 2014-2016 cars were much twitchier; you had to square your corners off more and be more patient to apply throttle; you probably had to apply more lock more frequently at various points along a track; you couldn't lean your front into corners like you can now;you had to be even more meticulous in managing slip on your wheels (with those Pirellis) into or out of corners or you would cook them (probably the area that, because he couldn't master it like Perez or Ricciardo, prevented the full manifestation of Hulkenberg's talent during that era). They were also, in comparison to the 2017-2018 cars, much less exhausting to drive over a race distance; your neck didn't receive anything like the workout it does now, demands on reaction time were less, etc. We've also seen that though the current cars hug the the ground incredibly well, when they do break adhesion it's in a fashion that's far more quick, violent, and hard to foresense or do anything to manage than it was for the cars of the previous regulations.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6422
Location: Nebraska, USA
Thanks, breathemyexhaust. Interesting info. It doesn't totally answer my questions as to driver perceptions of how Alonso views IndyCars, but certainly helps a technical illiterate like myself.

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28701
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:


There's not many that think F1 cars are hard to drive.


I believe that even some F1 drivers had made reference to this about the F1 cars.

The 2014-16 cars not the present cars because they are that much quicker, Alonso has said he enjoys driving the cars probably because they are more challenging, an Indycar not so much in comparison it seems?


Alonso put down the IndyCar as not being challenging to drive? When and where did he say that?

Do you know for sure that the drivers who said that F1 cars were not that hard to drive have changed their mind with the 2017 & 2018 cars? Where do I find verification of their having changed their stance?

Maybe when he said the cars were sluggish in their handling and lacked power, that and the fact it seems he's not keen on racing the cars, do you think that was a compliment?

Alonso is complimentary of the present F1 cars, he enjoys driving them, the 2014-16 cars were slower yet still faster than Indycars, if F1 drivers were critical of these cars then do you think they would be approving of Indycars?

Finding articles is hard to do.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 28701
breathemyexhaust wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:


There's not many that think F1 cars are hard to drive.


I believe that even some F1 drivers had made reference to this about the F1 cars.

The 2014-16 cars not the present cars because they are that much quicker, Alonso has said he enjoys driving the cars probably because they are more challenging, an Indycar not so much in comparison it seems?


Alonso put down the IndyCar as not being challenging to drive? When and where did he say that?

Do you know for sure that the drivers who said that F1 cars were not that hard to drive have changed their mind with the 2017 & 2018 cars? Where do I find verification of their having changed their stance?


Here are a few links that may be relevant:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... CMEkW.html

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... ndo-alonso

What I see here being confused is what I see confused on pretty much every motorsport forum: how difficult the vehicle is to manipulate/keep on track/get to do what you want with the physical experience on or in the vehicle. Admittedly, the demarcation between the two can be subtle and they do shade into the other; and yet the they ARE distinguishable. The 2014-2016 cars were much twitchier; you had to square your corners off more and be more patient to apply throttle; you probably had to apply more lock more frequently at various points along a track; you couldn't lean your front into corners like you can now;you had to be even more meticulous in managing slip on your wheels (with those Pirellis) into or out of corners or you would cook them (probably the area that, because he couldn't master it like Perez or Ricciardo, prevented the full manifestation of Hulkenberg's talent during that era). They were also, in comparison to the 2017-2018 cars, much less exhausting to drive over a race distance; your neck didn't receive anything like the workout it does now, demands on reaction time were less, etc. We've also seen that though the current cars hug the the ground incredibly well, when they do break adhesion it's in a fashion that's far more quick, violent, and hard to foresense or do anything to manage than it was for the cars of the previous regulations.

Cheers :thumbup:

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 5012
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Apparently AMuS wrote a couple of days ago that he'll only do the Indy500 next year with Andretti-Honda. Didn't like the Road Course car configuration, felt it was sluggish with the handling and lacked power. Will test for McLaren and may do some FE to fatten out the calendar along with his WEC duties next year instead.

I'll hunt around for the link later but not sure how much I'm buying of that tbh. He seemed positive about his recent test although admittedly that could be just for show.

It sounds feasible to me, the cars are going to feel fast on ovals but then sluggish on road courses compared to F1 cars.

That's why I asked the question how much of an extra difference can Alonso make in such cars which I presume are easier to drive than F1 cars?


I dunno, I'm not sure if they will be easier tbh. Super Formula cars are apparently harder to drive than F1 according to Stoff,Gasly and I think K-Mag that said it, mainly because of no power steering but I'm unsure about IndyCar with regards to that.

There's not many that think F1 cars are hard to drive to be fair. Mega grip, the most d/f, pretty much perfect driveability,balance and power steering won't make it too tricky compared to some other series with less advanced cars.

I mean harder to find the limit, I believe super formula cars corner faster than Indycars?


I've no idea tbh. I still can't find the original AMuS article but to be clear they weren't quoting Alonso first hand but by sluggish they do mean he doesn't like not having power steering and that the cars are 10s slower. https://twitter.com/ed_thatch/status/10 ... 24064?s=21

Whole thing doesn't ring true to me. He praised it publicly after the test, he knew full well they didn't have power steering as he's driven one at Indy and 10s slower than what? Neither he or F1 have driven at Barber so what's the comparison?

I think I'd have to call BS on the AMuS article tbh.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:11 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 6210
Location: Michigan, USA
Lotus49 wrote:
Whole thing doesn't ring true to me. He praised it publicly after the test, he knew full well they didn't have power steering as he's driven one at Indy and 10s slower than what? Neither he or F1 have driven at Barber so what's the comparison?

I think I'd have to call BS on the AMuS article tbh.

We'll know next year when they both run at COTA! 8)

As for the best direct comparison I could find, the last time the two series raced on the same track was I believe at the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve in 2006. At the time the series was still split, but the Champ Car pole time was 1:20.0 compared to a fastest lap (not pole) of 1:14.7 for F1.

Now, how does a modern IndyCar compare to a 2006 Champ Car? It's probably a little faster. How does a modern F1 car compare to a 2006 F1 car? It's a lot faster. Let's do some quick and dirty math!

For F1, we can compare a 2006 car at Montreal directly to a 2018 car at Montreal. Pole this year was 1:10.7, which is 5.3% faster. I'm ignoring the differences in qualifying formats.

For IndyCar, we can't compare at the same circuit, since they don't race in Montreal anymore. There are plenty of other tracks in common between 2006 and 2018 however, I've gone with the Long Beach street circuit, since it has the same layout for both years and was a dry qualifying in both years. The 2006 pole was 1:06.6, compared to a 1:06.5 for 2018. Based on that, IndyCars have barely got faster at all in the intervening years - a 0.002% improvement.

Therefore, with all that quick and dirty math out of the way, we can assume that a modern IndyCar would still set a time very much like 1:20.0 at Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, while a modern F1 car would be in the 1:10s. In other words, 10 seconds is a surprisingly accurate guess for the difference in pace between the two. Which I suppose makes sense, since engineers would have the data to calculate that a lot more accurately than I would. 8)

Next year, with a simplified front wing in F1 to hopefully help close racing, the gap should have reduced a little.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 5012
That's some impressive stats, nice work. Does look weirdly similar and I'd forgot about them both doing COTA next year so we'll get an answer for sure yeah. (Now it'll rain in one of them, you watch!)

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Mayox, Zoue and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group