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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:55 pm 
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In the last couple of years we've seen Jenson Button and Felipe Massa retire from F1. This year it looks like both Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen will be bowing out of the series as well. It seems to me that this is truly the end of an era. The very last of the drivers who came along during the V10 era will be gone by 2019. Even more strange is the fact that Lewis Hamilton will effectively become F1's elder statesman! Some of the younger forumers might not find that strange but for me, it's extremely bizarre. I remember Hamilton's rookie year like it was yesterday and still think of him as a youngster in many ways. With Rosberg's early retirement, Lewis will truly be the grey beard in the field next year! Grosjean and Vettel are the next oldest believe it or not.

In place of the outgoing generation we have a new breed of youngsters who have come into the sport over the last couple of years. Max Verstappen, Charles Leclerc, Esteban Ocon and Pierre Gasly are all in their early 20s and have shown the potential to be great. Three of the 4 will be at a top three team by next year. In the blink of an eye, we've seen massive turnover in F1; even among the teams at the tip of the spear! I only wish that Mercedes had gone with Ocon instead of Bottas (that would drive home the point even further).

The interesting thing is the "lost generation" in between Hamilton/Vettel's time and Max/Charles's time. The likes of Daniel Ricciardo, Sergio Perez, Nico Hulkenberg and Valteri Bottas all came along a little after Hamilton and Vettel and have watched those two win a total of 8 titles (soon to be 9) while never breaking through themselves. In fact, in the last decade, only Jenson Button and Nico Rosberg have broken Hamilton and Vettel's lock on the titles. It's sort of like the tennis generation that followed Federer, Nadal and Djokovic. Those guys dominated for so long that there's an entire generation that never saw the #1 spot.

What are your thoughts guys? How would you compare this new younger generation to the outgoing drivers? When do you think Hamilton and Vettel's hold on the WDC will be broken by one of these youngsters? Or do you think Ricciardo will break through and win one for the lost generation?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:48 pm 
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I think there has always been 'lost generations' down the years. I think drivers like Alesi or Berger who would have won so much more were Senna and Prost not around, who were then followed by Schumacher and Hakinnen, even someone like Mansell, who needed one of the most dominant cars of all time to finally win a title against those big boys. I'm sure people better versed in earlier era's would be able to pinpoint drivers who fell in between the dynastys of the all time greats.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:43 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
I think there has always been 'lost generations' down the years. I think drivers like Alesi or Berger who would have won so much more were Senna and Prost not around, who were then followed by Schumacher and Hakinnen, even someone like Mansell, who needed one of the most dominant cars of all time to finally win a title against those big boys. I'm sure people better versed in earlier era's would be able to pinpoint drivers who fell in between the dynastys of the all time greats.

I actually think Mansell was a bit unlucky at times (and unfairly treated at others). I find it amazing to this day that he ended up with only 1 WDC in his career. Outside of Senna, he might have had the most raw talent of all of the 1980s drivers. He wasn't the obsessive, professionalized, highly fit performer that Senna made the norm in F1 though. I feel like Mansell would have been better off if he had come along a decade or two earlier.

Ricciardo also seems to be the victim of poor timing. Mark Webber really stood in his way while Red Bull had the best car. When the path finally cleared, Mercedes was dominant. I really do wonder if Daniel will get his WDC before his career ends. Hard to believe he'll be 30 next year.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:00 pm 
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"Lost generation" sounds like such a tennis term.

HAM and VET reign to last until through 2020 at bare minimum. Unless Leclerc is hot shizzle.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:51 pm 
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The 'lost generation' were a strange bunch, they didn't lack success through a lack of talent with the exception of Bottas, they just never got to sit in a title contending car at any point.

Ricciardo was arguably driver of the year twice in the turbo era, 2014 and 2016, and smoked Seb's boots head to head in the same team but the Red Bull he sat in just wasn't good enough for a title charge and so he's now gambling on 2021 and Renault.

Perez's one and only year in a top team was also in a year the car simply wasn't good enough, he didn't settle well and apparently had some attitude issues but it's not like McLaren returned to the top so he never missed a title chance through that failing and despite being arguably the best midfielder over the past 5 years he never got the call again from a top team.

Hulk switched teams too often through little fault of his own, had a great battle with Perez which was tight but despite being on the shortlist for about 7 years didn't even get a shot in a top team unlike the other two despite being one of those stand outs in the midfield so there were no top cars for him to pit his wits with the best either.

Bottas at least got a shot in a top team with a top car to take on Seb and Lewis but was comfortably beaten last year by Lewis and despite another promising start to this year has fallen away again but he like Rosberg at least got a shot unlike the other three so can't have too many complaints.

It's a strange one but because we had two dominant car periods and not a lot of manufacturer interest there's been a lack of competitive machinery for that particular generation and even being a Red Bull junior doesn't help if the rules happen to strangle their competitiveness while you're with them as Dan's time showed. Hopefully Liberty's vision for a more level playing field post 2021 will help this type of thing from happening again to other generations down the line.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:36 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I think there has always been 'lost generations' down the years. I think drivers like Alesi or Berger who would have won so much more were Senna and Prost not around, who were then followed by Schumacher and Hakinnen, even someone like Mansell, who needed one of the most dominant cars of all time to finally win a title against those big boys. I'm sure people better versed in earlier era's would be able to pinpoint drivers who fell in between the dynastys of the all time greats.

I actually think Mansell was a bit unlucky at times (and unfairly treated at others). I find it amazing to this day that he ended up with only 1 WDC in his career. Outside of Senna, he might have had the most raw talent of all of the 1980s drivers. He wasn't the obsessive, professionalized, highly fit performer that Senna made the norm in F1 though. I feel like Mansell would have been better off if he had come along a decade or two earlier.

Ricciardo also seems to be the victim of poor timing. Mark Webber really stood in his way while Red Bull had the best car. When the path finally cleared, Mercedes was dominant. I really do wonder if Daniel will get his WDC before his career ends. Hard to believe he'll be 30 next year.

From what I've heard Mansell did himself no favours with the engineers and rubbed them up the wrong way. Great driver, supported him then and still have a soft spot now and a shame he didn't get at least one more title.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:00 pm 
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In the mid 90s to early 2000s I certainly feel there was a bit of a sparsity of great talent on the grid outside Schumacher and Hakkinen until Raikkonen and Alonso really emerged in 2002 and 2003 respectively. Greats like Senna, Mansell and Prost had departed, the lower Formula's weren't what they are today.

Alesi wasted his talent with poor decisions. Damon Hill improved greatly but was very good rather than great. Jacques had raw talent but that BAR switch robbed him of any real chance to prove himself as anything better than Hill or Rosberg tier (and I suspect he was a fair bit short of Hakkinen's level let alone Schumacher). Coulthard was a level below that. Montoya had speed but wasn't mentally strong. Ralf was solid but not spectacular.

Raikkonen and Alonso also exposed drivers who had previously been touted as world champions of the future with Kimi beating Coulthard and Alonso later beating Fisichella.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:11 am 
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Formula One is a young man's game, and it is very rare to see any driver reach twenty years, not less fifteen in the sport. And there are cyclical bottlenecks, very talented drivers reach the top very quickly, then control the playing field for many years. The situation is heightened when there are just a few teams that are capable of winning. That leaves very few seats that have the potential for a title.

But the parade next ceases. There will be older drivers at the top who will retire within five years, and there is always fresh talent standing in the wings.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:15 am 
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F1 race starts all time:

1 Brazil Rubens Barrichello 1993–2011 326
2 United Kingdom Jenson Button 2000–2017 309
3 Germany Michael Schumacher 1991–2006, 2010–2012 308
4 Spain Fernando Alonso 2001, 2003–2018 307
5 Finland Kimi Räikkönen 2001–2009, 2012–2018 287
6 Brazil Felipe Massa 2002, 2004–2017 272
7 Italy Riccardo Patrese 1977–1993 257
8 Italy Jarno Trulli 1997–2011 256
9 United Kingdom David Coulthard 1994–2008 247
10 Italy Giancarlo Fisichella 1996–2009 231

From wikipedia.

Interesting that 9 of the top 10 of all time race starts have finished their career after 2000.

Very impressive effort by Riccardo Patrese to clock up 257 race starts back then as they had much fewer races per year.

We will be back to only 2 WDC in the field next year... (down from 6 at the end of the year Rosberg finished)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:58 am 
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If drivers come in to F1 at 22-25, drive a decade with a flow off to other disciplines and we have a lost generation, what is going to happen with drivers coming in at 18 and driving for 2 decades and only 20 cars on the grid and not many distractions in other series?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:48 am 
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I think a big part of the reason for having a "lost" generation is that for much of the past decade there has been one team with a clearly faster car than the others. Thus you have the situation where that team is satisfied with the drivers they have because they are winning the titles, while the teams in 2nd, 3rd, 4th are also satisfied with their drivers because they know that it is not the drivers' fault that they are not in front, it is that the car cannot match the team that is out in front. From the the drivers' point of view, obviously the drivers at the top team are not going to want to go anywhere and those in the second tier are not looking elsewhere either because they know there is no point in moving.

If Liberty Media do succeed in making the sport more even and competitive then I think this problem will disappear. If anything we could end up with the opposite situation where the top teams ruthlessly ditch their drivers when they don't deliver the title, because from their point of view the car is competitive enough and it is the driver that has fallen short. I think we are starting to see this happening this year, with rumours of Ferrari's discontent with Vettel after just 18 months of being in a championship contending car. This could lead to quite a merry-go-round of drivers where they all swap teams every couple of years, a bit like what happens with head coaches in football.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Just to echo what others have said.

In the last 10yrs there really hasn't that been much opportunity to get into a race winning seat. In terms of competitiveness, the last 10yrs have seen 2x 4yr dominations by a single team, with Mercedes having probably the most dominant period in history.

Add in reliability, and its no surprise that nearly every podium for the last 4-5yrs has been a rotation of the same 5-6 faces.

Despite the grid, at times over the last decade, being as talent rich as any point in time, F1 really hasn't delivered the golden era it should have.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:48 pm 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
Just to echo what others have said.

In the last 10yrs there really hasn't that been much opportunity to get into a race winning seat. In terms of competitiveness, the last 10yrs have seen 2x 4yr dominations by a single team, with Mercedes having probably the most dominant period in history.

Add in reliability, and its no surprise that nearly every podium for the last 4-5yrs has been a rotation of the same 5-6 faces.

Despite the grid, at times over the last decade, being as talent rich as any point in time, F1 really hasn't delivered the golden era it should have.


I don't think the grid right now is as strong as it has been. The front end is probably as good as ever but the middling drivers were better a 10-15 years ago than they are now IMO.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:52 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
Just to echo what others have said.

In the last 10yrs there really hasn't that been much opportunity to get into a race winning seat. In terms of competitiveness, the last 10yrs have seen 2x 4yr dominations by a single team, with Mercedes having probably the most dominant period in history.

Add in reliability, and its no surprise that nearly every podium for the last 4-5yrs has been a rotation of the same 5-6 faces.

Despite the grid, at times over the last decade, being as talent rich as any point in time, F1 really hasn't delivered the golden era it should have.


I don't think the grid right now is as strong as it has been. The front end is probably as good as ever but the middling drivers were better a 10-15 years ago than they are now IMO.


I actually agree with that, but at times over the last decade we have had 5-6-7 drivers who are top tier or very near top tier and could be multiple champions if the car was there for them.

The talent at the front of the grid certainly should have provided a better era than it ultimately did, and I think the sport has robbed the fans of that.

I mean in the 2010's, in terms of driver moves, only really Verstappen, Ricciardo, Kyvat and Bottas have been hired into a (potential) race winning seat, from outside a (potential) race winning seat.

The rest have inherited it, or moved having already been established in race winning seats.

Very little opportunity. Even somebody who appears to be an outstanding talent in Verstappen, will maybe be a 5-6-7yr veteran before he gets the chance in a championship contending car. You can add Gasly to that list next year, and very possibly Leclerc - so maybe only 5 moves to potential winning cars in a whole decade.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:16 pm 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
Just to echo what others have said.

In the last 10yrs there really hasn't that been much opportunity to get into a race winning seat. In terms of competitiveness, the last 10yrs have seen 2x 4yr dominations by a single team, with Mercedes having probably the most dominant period in history.

Add in reliability, and its no surprise that nearly every podium for the last 4-5yrs has been a rotation of the same 5-6 faces.

Despite the grid, at times over the last decade, being as talent rich as any point in time, F1 really hasn't delivered the golden era it should have.


I don't think the grid right now is as strong as it has been. The front end is probably as good as ever but the middling drivers were better a 10-15 years ago than they are now IMO.


I actually agree with that, but at times over the last decade we have had 5-6-7 drivers who are top tier or very near top tier and could be multiple champions if the car was there for them.

The talent at the front of the grid certainly should have provided a better era than it ultimately did, and I think the sport has robbed the fans of that.

I mean in the 2010's, in terms of driver moves, only really Verstappen, Ricciardo, Kyvat and Bottas have been hired into a (potential) race winning seat, from outside a (potential) race winning seat.

The rest have inherited it, or moved having already been established in race winning seats.

Very little opportunity. Even somebody who appears to be an outstanding talent in Verstappen, will maybe be a 5-6-7yr veteran before he gets the chance in a championship contending car. You can add Gasly to that list next year, and very possibly Leclerc - so maybe only 5 moves to potential winning cars in a whole decade.


Yes, teams have become very risk averse with driver signings and seem to be much happier sticking with the status quo rather than making a change. Drivers too can't afford to change teams as the order at the front is set with little chance of change. Red Bull for example have only decided to get rid of 1 driver since 2007. Merc the same but since 2010.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:55 am 
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It's just crazy that, with Raikkonen and Alonso retiring after this season, Hamilton and Vettel will literally be the only two drivers in the field who have ever won a WDC! I don't think I can remember a time where there were only two former WDCs in the field.

Leclerc is taking the first shot for the younger generation. He will likely have the car underneath him to win with and, if he's the same caliber of driver as Sebastian Vettel, we will know so right away.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:40 am 
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Have i missed something as I read the KIMI F1 "0bituary"? Is it fact that KIMI is retiring this year? That he is being replaced at Ferrari by Leclerc in 2019? Or is it 2020?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:45 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
It's just crazy that, with Raikkonen and Alonso retiring after this season, Hamilton and Vettel will literally be the only two drivers in the field who have ever won a WDC! I don't think I can remember a time where there were only two former WDCs in the field.

Leclerc is taking the first shot for the younger generation. He will likely have the car underneath him to win with and, if he's the same caliber of driver as Sebastian Vettel, we will know so right away.


I know many in here have little respect for Vettel, but is it fair to expect a driver with a little experience in F1, much less at Ferrari, as Leclerc, to match Vettel right away or we will know right away that he is not of the same caliber? Crikey, give the kid a chance!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:16 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
It's just crazy that, with Raikkonen and Alonso retiring after this season, Hamilton and Vettel will literally be the only two drivers in the field who have ever won a WDC! I don't think I can remember a time where there were only two former WDCs in the field.

Leclerc is taking the first shot for the younger generation. He will likely have the car underneath him to win with and, if he's the same caliber of driver as Sebastian Vettel, we will know so right away.

How about the start of the 1996 season? Was Schumi the only WDC?

Good, thought-provoking thread BTW :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:20 am 
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Covalent wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It's just crazy that, with Raikkonen and Alonso retiring after this season, Hamilton and Vettel will literally be the only two drivers in the field who have ever won a WDC! I don't think I can remember a time where there were only two former WDCs in the field.

Leclerc is taking the first shot for the younger generation. He will likely have the car underneath him to win with and, if he's the same caliber of driver as Sebastian Vettel, we will know so right away.

How about the start of the 1996 season? Was Schumi the only WDC?

Good, thought-provoking thread BTW :thumbup:
Go back to 1994 and there was a (brief) period, between the tragic loss of Senna and Mansell stepping in, that there were no WDCs on the grid.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:23 am 
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Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It's just crazy that, with Raikkonen and Alonso retiring after this season, Hamilton and Vettel will literally be the only two drivers in the field who have ever won a WDC! I don't think I can remember a time where there were only two former WDCs in the field.

Leclerc is taking the first shot for the younger generation. He will likely have the car underneath him to win with and, if he's the same caliber of driver as Sebastian Vettel, we will know so right away.


I know many in here have little respect for Vettel, but is it fair to expect a driver with a little experience in F1, much less at Ferrari, as Leclerc, to match Vettel right away or we will know right away that he is not of the same caliber? Crikey, give the kid a chance!


The good news for him is that Ferrari are the team who show most patience with their drivers. He'll get a couple of seasons to develop. He has a lot of momentum right now though. GP3 champion, F2 Champion and now doing well in F1. I don't actually think his rookie year has been as amazing as some seem to but drivers do usually improve in their second season quite a bit. I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do.

Edit - And almost everyone has lots of respect for Vettel. I doubt their is anyone sensible who would think he was anything lower than the 4th best driver in F1 once Alonso retires. He's just getting criticised for the amount of mistakes he's made recently. Other drivers at the front get criticised for making mistakes as well. See Verstappen.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:23 am 
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Blake wrote:
Have i missed something as I read the KIMI F1 "0bituary"? Is it fact that KIMI is retiring this year? That he is being replaced at Ferrari by Leclerc in 2019? Or is it 2020?

Yeah it is a little off that the rumours which were so sure of Leclerc's impending promotion stated confidently that it was going to be announced last Thursday. Could just be the timing they've got wrong but it does raise questions over how good their source is.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:37 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Have i missed something as I read the KIMI F1 "0bituary"? Is it fact that KIMI is retiring this year? That he is being replaced at Ferrari by Leclerc in 2019? Or is it 2020?

Yeah it is a little off that the rumours which were so sure of Leclerc's impending promotion stated confidently that it was going to be announced last Thursday. Could just be the timing they've got wrong but it does raise questions over how good their source is.

There was an article very recently with Binotti where he was saying that a major reason for their recent success is their stability and the fact they haven't changed things, including personnel, for a while now. I could be totally misreading but seems to me that this might point to a bit of an internal war - or at least lobbying - to maintain the status quo and this could be holding up the announcement.

Still think there are too many reports of Leclerc's impending announcement to ignore and the most recent hastily withdrawn tweet by a sponsor does suggest it's a done deal, but the fact that they still haven't made an announcement does tend to indicate that there are at least some contractual wranglings going on


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:58 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
It's just crazy that, with Raikkonen and Alonso retiring after this season, Hamilton and Vettel will literally be the only two drivers in the field who have ever won a WDC! I don't think I can remember a time where there were only two former WDCs in the field.

Leclerc is taking the first shot for the younger generation. He will likely have the car underneath him to win with and, if he's the same caliber of driver as Sebastian Vettel, we will know so right away.

Really not often, but 1981 springs to mind, with only Jones and Andretti being WDC's after Scheckter and Fittipaldi retired at the end of 1980. Rosberg, Prost, Mansell and Piquet were yet to become champs.
There is also 1979 second half of the season with only 2 WDC's, after Hunt retired, with Lauda and Andretti.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:26 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It's just crazy that, with Raikkonen and Alonso retiring after this season, Hamilton and Vettel will literally be the only two drivers in the field who have ever won a WDC! I don't think I can remember a time where there were only two former WDCs in the field.

Leclerc is taking the first shot for the younger generation. He will likely have the car underneath him to win with and, if he's the same caliber of driver as Sebastian Vettel, we will know so right away.

Really not often, but 1981 springs to mind, with only Jones and Andretti being WDC's after Scheckter and Fittipaldi retired at the end of 1980. Rosberg, Prost, Mansell and Piquet were yet to become champs.
There is also 1979 second half of the season with only 2 WDC's, after Hunt retired, with Lauda and Andretti.

as recently as 2007 we only had one. And he's leaving now!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:34 pm 
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Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It's just crazy that, with Raikkonen and Alonso retiring after this season, Hamilton and Vettel will literally be the only two drivers in the field who have ever won a WDC! I don't think I can remember a time where there were only two former WDCs in the field.

Leclerc is taking the first shot for the younger generation. He will likely have the car underneath him to win with and, if he's the same caliber of driver as Sebastian Vettel, we will know so right away.


I know many in here have little respect for Vettel, but is it fair to expect a driver with a little experience in F1, much less at Ferrari, as Leclerc, to match Vettel right away or we will know right away that he is not of the same caliber? Crikey, give the kid a chance!

First of all, I don't think there's a lack of respect for Vettel. Secondly, I'm not saying that we should expect Charles to beat Vettel in the points next year. You should read what I actually said. I'm not talking about points; I'm talking about pace. If Charles is the real deal, he will be quick right away. He may have some hiccups and growing pains but he will be on it from day 1 if he's got the kind of ceiling that people think he does.

Personally, I would be surprised if Charles outscores Sebastian in his first year with the team. I would imagine that the challenge of adapting combined with his lack of experience will work against him in the matchup. That said, I do expect him to be MUCH more of a threat in qualifying than Raikkonen ever was and I expect him to get better as the season progresses. I won't pretend to actually know how good this kid is. You can only tell that by bench-marking him against someone like Vettel so we'll have to wait and see how he measures up.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:54 pm 
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Great comments about the years with very few WDCs in the field. I had forgotten about that period in 1994 after Senna's death where there was literally no one in the field who had been champion. The early 90s were possibly the most radical period of turnover in F1's history from that standpoint. Piquet retired in 91', Mansell retired in 92', Prost retired in 93' and Senna died in 94'. Mansell came back briefly that year but, by 1995, the grid was really depleted. Schumacher and Hakkinen were really the only top-level talents in the field from that point. The late 90s are arguably one of the weakest periods in F1 history talent-wise. Guys who were big names then like Damon Hill, David Coulthard and Jaques Villeneuve wouldn't even be top 10 drivers in F1 today.

The guys who came in from 2000-2001 were pretty special though. At that time, Jenson Button, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen, Felipe Massa and Juan Montoya all came into the sport. Montoya was older and was the first of them to fight at the front but he didn't really have the mental toughness or the level of dedication to be a true rival to Michael. Jenson took quite a few years to develop into a real title threat. It was Alonso and Raikkonen who first upset the apple cart in the Michael Schumacher era.

That generation achieved quite a lot. It produced 3 WDCs (winning a total of 4) and a ton of race wins. The next great generation has been even more succesful. The group that came along in 2006-2007 is one of the most dominant generations in F1 history. Nico Rosberg, Robert Kubica, Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel all came into the sport in that time frame and they have been dominant ever since. Since 2008, they have won 10 of the 11 WDCs (assuming either Hamilton or Vettel win this year) and this year will make 9 in a row!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:05 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Great comments about the years with very few WDCs in the field. I had forgotten about that period in 1994 after Senna's death where there was literally no one in the field who had been champion. The early 90s were possibly the most radical period of turnover in F1's history from that standpoint. Piquet retired in 91', Mansell retired in 92', Prost retired in 93' and Senna died in 94'. Mansell came back briefly that year but, by 1995, the grid was really depleted. Schumacher and Hakkinen were really the only top-level talents in the field from that point. The late 90s are arguably one of the weakest periods in F1 history talent-wise. Guys who were big names then like Damon Hill, David Coulthard and Jaques Villeneuve wouldn't even be top 10 drivers in F1 today.

The guys who came in from 2000-2001 were pretty special though. At that time, Jenson Button, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen, Felipe Massa and Juan Montoya all came into the sport. Montoya was older and was the first of them to fight at the front but he didn't really have the mental toughness or the level of dedication to be a true rival to Michael. Jenson took quite a few years to develop into a real title threat. It was Alonso and Raikkonen who first upset the apple cart in the Michael Schumacher era.

That generation achieved quite a lot. It produced 3 WDCs (winning a total of 4) and a ton of race wins. The next great generation has been even more succesful. The group that came along in 2006-2007 is one of the most dominant generations in F1 history. Nico Rosberg, Robert Kubica, Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel all came into the sport in that time frame and they have been dominant ever since. Since 2008, they have won 10 of the 11 WDCs (assuming either Hamilton or Vettel win this year) and this year will make 9 in a row!


I think Hill, Villenueve or Coulthard at their best would all definitely be in the top 10 on the grid next season. I think you're well underrating that generation. Coulthard was a pretty good match for Hakkinen in every year apart from 98. He gets well underrated.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Great comments about the years with very few WDCs in the field. I had forgotten about that period in 1994 after Senna's death where there was literally no one in the field who had been champion. The early 90s were possibly the most radical period of turnover in F1's history from that standpoint. Piquet retired in 91', Mansell retired in 92', Prost retired in 93' and Senna died in 94'. Mansell came back briefly that year but, by 1995, the grid was really depleted. Schumacher and Hakkinen were really the only top-level talents in the field from that point. The late 90s are arguably one of the weakest periods in F1 history talent-wise. Guys who were big names then like Damon Hill, David Coulthard and Jaques Villeneuve wouldn't even be top 10 drivers in F1 today.

The guys who came in from 2000-2001 were pretty special though. At that time, Jenson Button, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen, Felipe Massa and Juan Montoya all came into the sport. Montoya was older and was the first of them to fight at the front but he didn't really have the mental toughness or the level of dedication to be a true rival to Michael. Jenson took quite a few years to develop into a real title threat. It was Alonso and Raikkonen who first upset the apple cart in the Michael Schumacher era.

That generation achieved quite a lot. It produced 3 WDCs (winning a total of 4) and a ton of race wins. The next great generation has been even more succesful. The group that came along in 2006-2007 is one of the most dominant generations in F1 history. Nico Rosberg, Robert Kubica, Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel all came into the sport in that time frame and they have been dominant ever since. Since 2008, they have won 10 of the 11 WDCs (assuming either Hamilton or Vettel win this year) and this year will make 9 in a row!


I think Hill, Villenueve or Coulthard at their best would all definitely be in the top 10 on the grid next season. I think you're well underrating that generation. Coulthard was a pretty good match for Hakkinen in every year apart from 98. He gets well underrated.

I think Mika was clearly the better driver. Coulthard also got a chance to team up with Kimi Raikkonen and Mark Webber later on and he was slower than both. Villeneuve also later drove alongside the likes of Jenson Button and was soundly defeated. Damon Hill showed during his years as teammate to the likes of Mansell, Prost and Senna how he stacks up against top shelf talent.

I don't think any of those guys would be quicker than a Nico Hulkenberg or Romain Grosjean to be blunt and certainly nowhere near the top 5.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:25 pm 
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Top thread but...
sandman1347 wrote:
Guys who were big names then like Damon Hill, David Coulthard and Jaques Villeneuve wouldn't even be top 10 drivers in F1 today.
Can't let this go without comment... The same Hill who beat Schumacher in the wet at Suzuka, the same Coulthard who caught and passed Schumacher at Magny-Cours and the same Villeneuve who passed Schumacher round the outside at Estoril...

IMO the best of the rest in F1 today wouldn't get close - Ocon is no quicker than Perez who couldn't catch a cold from Button in their year together, Hulkenberg beat Perez, just, while Alonso thrashed Massa who was quicker than Raikonnen who beat Grosjean.

I can't imagine any of the tier 2 drivers in F1 today getting close to Schumacher in his prime.

Quite likely Vandoorne is as quick if not quicker than all of them given his performances against Alonso.

I predict that should LeClerc get the Ferrari drive he'll be comfortably beating Vettel by the end of next season, some guy on here once suggested that Vettel was the luckiest F1 kid ever since he was given the fastest car in F1 in his second year in the sport (and for the next few years). Let's see how Leclerc does if he gets the same chance.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:30 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Great comments about the years with very few WDCs in the field. I had forgotten about that period in 1994 after Senna's death where there was literally no one in the field who had been champion. The early 90s were possibly the most radical period of turnover in F1's history from that standpoint. Piquet retired in 91', Mansell retired in 92', Prost retired in 93' and Senna died in 94'. Mansell came back briefly that year but, by 1995, the grid was really depleted. Schumacher and Hakkinen were really the only top-level talents in the field from that point. The late 90s are arguably one of the weakest periods in F1 history talent-wise. Guys who were big names then like Damon Hill, David Coulthard and Jaques Villeneuve wouldn't even be top 10 drivers in F1 today.

The guys who came in from 2000-2001 were pretty special though. At that time, Jenson Button, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen, Felipe Massa and Juan Montoya all came into the sport. Montoya was older and was the first of them to fight at the front but he didn't really have the mental toughness or the level of dedication to be a true rival to Michael. Jenson took quite a few years to develop into a real title threat. It was Alonso and Raikkonen who first upset the apple cart in the Michael Schumacher era.

That generation achieved quite a lot. It produced 3 WDCs (winning a total of 4) and a ton of race wins. The next great generation has been even more succesful. The group that came along in 2006-2007 is one of the most dominant generations in F1 history. Nico Rosberg, Robert Kubica, Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel all came into the sport in that time frame and they have been dominant ever since. Since 2008, they have won 10 of the 11 WDCs (assuming either Hamilton or Vettel win this year) and this year will make 9 in a row!


I think Hill, Villenueve or Coulthard at their best would all definitely be in the top 10 on the grid next season. I think you're well underrating that generation. Coulthard was a pretty good match for Hakkinen in every year apart from 98. He gets well underrated.

I think Mika was clearly the better driver. Coulthard also got a chance to team up with Kimi Raikkonen and Mark Webber later on and he was slower than both. Villeneuve also later drove alongside the likes of Jenson Button and was soundly defeated. Damon Hill showed during his years as teammate to the likes of Mansell, Prost and Senna how he stacks up against top shelf talent.

I don't think any of those guys would be quicker than a Nico Hulkenberg or Romain Grosjean to be blunt and certainly nowhere near the top 5.


If you rate Hakkinen as any good at all you simply have to rate Coulthard as well. Villeneuve handily beat Frentzen and Panis and wasn't a million miles away from Button despite team politics. Hill was better than Ralf Schumacher who was very nearly as good as Montoya.

And given that the top 10 next year may even have to include the guy Hulkenberg has handily put away this year then I think they'd all easily make it. I think all three of them are at least as good the Bottas, Perez, Hulk tier 2 axis.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:52 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Great comments about the years with very few WDCs in the field. I had forgotten about that period in 1994 after Senna's death where there was literally no one in the field who had been champion. The early 90s were possibly the most radical period of turnover in F1's history from that standpoint. Piquet retired in 91', Mansell retired in 92', Prost retired in 93' and Senna died in 94'. Mansell came back briefly that year but, by 1995, the grid was really depleted. Schumacher and Hakkinen were really the only top-level talents in the field from that point. The late 90s are arguably one of the weakest periods in F1 history talent-wise. Guys who were big names then like Damon Hill, David Coulthard and Jaques Villeneuve wouldn't even be top 10 drivers in F1 today.

The guys who came in from 2000-2001 were pretty special though. At that time, Jenson Button, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen, Felipe Massa and Juan Montoya all came into the sport. Montoya was older and was the first of them to fight at the front but he didn't really have the mental toughness or the level of dedication to be a true rival to Michael. Jenson took quite a few years to develop into a real title threat. It was Alonso and Raikkonen who first upset the apple cart in the Michael Schumacher era.

That generation achieved quite a lot. It produced 3 WDCs (winning a total of 4) and a ton of race wins. The next great generation has been even more succesful. The group that came along in 2006-2007 is one of the most dominant generations in F1 history. Nico Rosberg, Robert Kubica, Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel all came into the sport in that time frame and they have been dominant ever since. Since 2008, they have won 10 of the 11 WDCs (assuming either Hamilton or Vettel win this year) and this year will make 9 in a row!


I think Hill, Villenueve or Coulthard at their best would all definitely be in the top 10 on the grid next season. I think you're well underrating that generation. Coulthard was a pretty good match for Hakkinen in every year apart from 98. He gets well underrated.

I think Mika was clearly the better driver. Coulthard also got a chance to team up with Kimi Raikkonen and Mark Webber later on and he was slower than both. Villeneuve also later drove alongside the likes of Jenson Button and was soundly defeated. Damon Hill showed during his years as teammate to the likes of Mansell, Prost and Senna how he stacks up against top shelf talent.

I don't think any of those guys would be quicker than a Nico Hulkenberg or Romain Grosjean to be blunt and certainly nowhere near the top 5.


If you rate Hakkinen as any good at all you simply have to rate Coulthard as well. Villeneuve handily beat Frentzen and Panis and wasn't a million miles away from Button despite team politics. Hill was better than Ralf Schumacher who was very nearly as good as Montoya.

And given that the top 10 next year may even have to include the guy Hulkenberg has handily put away this year then I think they'd all easily make it. I think all three of them are at least as good the Bottas, Perez, Hulk tier 2 axis.

Couldn't disagree with you more. For me, the best of them is Damon Hill and he's probably the only one who might still be top 10 today. Villeneuve was average by today's standards as was DC. You seem to think that DC was as good as Hakkinen but I disagree with you on that pretty strongly. Hakkinen was comprehensively superior to DC.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:27 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
It's just crazy that, with Raikkonen and Alonso retiring after this season, Hamilton and Vettel will literally be the only two drivers in the field who have ever won a WDC! I don't think I can remember a time where there were only two former WDCs in the field.

Leclerc is taking the first shot for the younger generation. He will likely have the car underneath him to win with and, if he's the same caliber of driver as Sebastian Vettel, we will know so right away.

It's quite amazing to consider that Hamilton would be the oldest driver in F1, were did all those years go?

Then consider he will be at that the oldest driver and only 34 years old, next year will surely be the youngest field of drivers there has ever been?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:34 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Great comments about the years with very few WDCs in the field. I had forgotten about that period in 1994 after Senna's death where there was literally no one in the field who had been champion. The early 90s were possibly the most radical period of turnover in F1's history from that standpoint. Piquet retired in 91', Mansell retired in 92', Prost retired in 93' and Senna died in 94'. Mansell came back briefly that year but, by 1995, the grid was really depleted. Schumacher and Hakkinen were really the only top-level talents in the field from that point. The late 90s are arguably one of the weakest periods in F1 history talent-wise. Guys who were big names then like Damon Hill, David Coulthard and Jaques Villeneuve wouldn't even be top 10 drivers in F1 today.

The guys who came in from 2000-2001 were pretty special though. At that time, Jenson Button, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen, Felipe Massa and Juan Montoya all came into the sport. Montoya was older and was the first of them to fight at the front but he didn't really have the mental toughness or the level of dedication to be a true rival to Michael. Jenson took quite a few years to develop into a real title threat. It was Alonso and Raikkonen who first upset the apple cart in the Michael Schumacher era.

That generation achieved quite a lot. It produced 3 WDCs (winning a total of 4) and a ton of race wins. The next great generation has been even more succesful. The group that came along in 2006-2007 is one of the most dominant generations in F1 history. Nico Rosberg, Robert Kubica, Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel all came into the sport in that time frame and they have been dominant ever since. Since 2008, they have won 10 of the 11 WDCs (assuming either Hamilton or Vettel win this year) and this year will make 9 in a row!


I think Hill, Villenueve or Coulthard at their best would all definitely be in the top 10 on the grid next season. I think you're well underrating that generation. Coulthard was a pretty good match for Hakkinen in every year apart from 98. He gets well underrated.

I think Mika was clearly the better driver. Coulthard also got a chance to team up with Kimi Raikkonen and Mark Webber later on and he was slower than both. Villeneuve also later drove alongside the likes of Jenson Button and was soundly defeated. Damon Hill showed during his years as teammate to the likes of Mansell, Prost and Senna how he stacks up against top shelf talent.

I don't think any of those guys would be quicker than a Nico Hulkenberg or Romain Grosjean to be blunt and certainly nowhere near the top 5.


If you rate Hakkinen as any good at all you simply have to rate Coulthard as well. Villeneuve handily beat Frentzen and Panis and wasn't a million miles away from Button despite team politics. Hill was better than Ralf Schumacher who was very nearly as good as Montoya.

And given that the top 10 next year may even have to include the guy Hulkenberg has handily put away this year then I think they'd all easily make it. I think all three of them are at least as good the Bottas, Perez, Hulk tier 2 axis.

Couldn't disagree with you more. For me, the best of them is Damon Hill and he's probably the only one who might still be top 10 today. Villeneuve was average by today's standards as was DC. You seem to think that DC was as good as Hakkinen but I disagree with you on that pretty strongly. Hakkinen was comprehensively superior to DC.


I think Hakkinen was better but DC at his best 2000-01 was very close to Hakkinen at his best. For Coulthard at his best not to be in next season's top 10 you'd have to believe Hakkinen to be barely better than Perez or Hulk IMO. Hill was an inconsistent driver but again, at his best was very good.

No way are those drivers Inferior to the likes of Grosjean, Sainz or Magnussen.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:48 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I think Hakkinen was better but DC at his best 2000-01 was very close to Hakkinen at his best. For Coulthard at his best not to be in next season's top 10 you'd have to believe Hakkinen to be barely better than Perez or Hulk IMO. Hill was an inconsistent driver but again, at his best was very good.

No way are those drivers Inferior to the likes of Grosjean, Sainz or Magnussen.


By 2000-01 i'm of the opinion that Hakinnen was phoning it in, hence the eventual sabbatical that became his retirement. I think Hill is still criminally underated, at his peak i'd happily put him in the same tier 1.5~ that the likes of Rosberg, Button, Montoya et all have resided in down the years. Villeneueve is an odd one. Looked great in his debut season but ultimately came up short, in '97 he did his absolute best to lose that championship in a car that started out the best part of 2 seconds a lap faster than anything else with a teammate in HHF who found himself in an environment made of kryptonite, wheras after that Williams were nowhere and then he pledged the rest of his best years to a project that seemed more about the money than the car. Ultimately though, I think Villenueve was just as quick as anyone in the midfield of today, just the utter guff he comes out with in the years since added to the underwhelming end to his time in F1 has horribly eroded what reputation he might have had.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:18 pm 
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I think what History has shown us is that the likes of Hill, Villenueve and Coulthard were not really that good, Coulthard that got beat by an inexperienced Kimi who is getting beat by Vettel yet Vettel is overrated and Coulthard was good?

Kimi also beat Montoya who perhaps edged Ralf Schumacher who are we giving Hill credit for beating/edging?

Whilst Villenueve managed to become Massa's only victim apart from the talent that is Lance Stroll.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:18 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I think what History has shown us is that the likes of Hill, Villenueve and Coulthard were not really that good, Coulthard that got beat by an inexperienced Kimi who is getting beat by Vettel yet Vettel is overrated and Coulthard was good?

Kimi also beat Montoya who perhaps edged Ralf Schumacher who are we giving Hill credit for beating/edging?

Whilst Villenueve managed to become Massa's only victim apart from the talent that is Lance Stroll.


Are we seriously saying that current day Kimi is driving to the same standard as 2003-06 Kimi? I'm not saying these drivers were as good as our current front runners. Just good enough to be considered better than half of next years grid. Hardly a bold statement. Villenueve is the only one with a slight question mark.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:21 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think Hakkinen was better but DC at his best 2000-01 was very close to Hakkinen at his best. For Coulthard at his best not to be in next season's top 10 you'd have to believe Hakkinen to be barely better than Perez or Hulk IMO. Hill was an inconsistent driver but again, at his best was very good.

No way are those drivers Inferior to the likes of Grosjean, Sainz or Magnussen.


By 2000-01 i'm of the opinion that Hakinnen was phoning it in, hence the eventual sabbatical that became his retirement. I think Hill is still criminally underated, at his peak i'd happily put him in the same tier 1.5~ that the likes of Rosberg, Button, Montoya et all have resided in down the years. Villeneueve is an odd one. Looked great in his debut season but ultimately came up short, in '97 he did his absolute best to lose that championship in a car that started out the best part of 2 seconds a lap faster than anything else with a teammate in HHF who found himself in an environment made of kryptonite, wheras after that Williams were nowhere and then he pledged the rest of his best years to a project that seemed more about the money than the car. Ultimately though, I think Villenueve was just as quick as anyone in the midfield of today, just the utter guff he comes out with in the years since added to the underwhelming end to his time in F1 has horribly eroded what reputation he might have had.


Coulthard was as good as Hakkinen in 96 and 97 as well. There was a small window where Hakkinen was better than Coulthard. Was Hakkinen under performing in 96,97 and 00 or was Coulthard under performing in 98 and 99?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think Hakkinen was better but DC at his best 2000-01 was very close to Hakkinen at his best. For Coulthard at his best not to be in next season's top 10 you'd have to believe Hakkinen to be barely better than Perez or Hulk IMO. Hill was an inconsistent driver but again, at his best was very good.

No way are those drivers Inferior to the likes of Grosjean, Sainz or Magnussen.


By 2000-01 i'm of the opinion that Hakinnen was phoning it in, hence the eventual sabbatical that became his retirement. I think Hill is still criminally underated, at his peak i'd happily put him in the same tier 1.5~ that the likes of Rosberg, Button, Montoya et all have resided in down the years. Villeneueve is an odd one. Looked great in his debut season but ultimately came up short, in '97 he did his absolute best to lose that championship in a car that started out the best part of 2 seconds a lap faster than anything else with a teammate in HHF who found himself in an environment made of kryptonite, wheras after that Williams were nowhere and then he pledged the rest of his best years to a project that seemed more about the money than the car. Ultimately though, I think Villenueve was just as quick as anyone in the midfield of today, just the utter guff he comes out with in the years since added to the underwhelming end to his time in F1 has horribly eroded what reputation he might have had.

I agree. He went from dominating Coulthard to just barely beating him. There's a reason he retired so young. He didn't have the fire anymore.

In terms of raw pace, I'd put Coulthard about even with the likes of Nick Heidfeld at best. He was pretty quick in his day but never above average by comparison to the current grid. Guys like DC and Damon had their careers elevated to disproportionate heights due to the timing of when they came into the sport (In the vacuum left behind by Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell). Hakkinen, for me, is probably about the same level as Rosberg/Button overall.

Not top 10 might be a bit harsh for Damon Hill but the point is that these guys were considered top 5 back in the day and none of them would be in that conversation today.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:46 pm 
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Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It's just crazy that, with Raikkonen and Alonso retiring after this season, Hamilton and Vettel will literally be the only two drivers in the field who have ever won a WDC! I don't think I can remember a time where there were only two former WDCs in the field.

Leclerc is taking the first shot for the younger generation. He will likely have the car underneath him to win with and, if he's the same caliber of driver as Sebastian Vettel, we will know so right away.


I know many in here have little respect for Vettel, but is it fair to expect a driver with a little experience in F1, much less at Ferrari, as Leclerc, to match Vettel right away or we will know right away that he is not of the same caliber? Crikey, give the kid a chance!

I don't think he has to match Vettel over the season for us to tell if he of the same calibre, but if he is that good then I'd expect him to be close most weekends and beat him on occasion. Experience may bring a driver consistency, adaptability and general racecraft, but natural talent is always evident from the first time they sit in an F1 car. If you think of all the best drivers in recent history, they all looked seriously impressive right away: Hamilton is the most famous example because he had a reigning world champion alongside him but remember Vettel's points-scoring debut for BMW-Sauber? Alonso putting the Minardi where it shouldn't be? Kimi arriving with very little racing experience and putting the Sauber in the points? Or going further back, Schumacher in the Jordan? We're told Leclerc is in that category so I expect nothing less.


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