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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:49 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think Hakkinen was better but DC at his best 2000-01 was very close to Hakkinen at his best. For Coulthard at his best not to be in next season's top 10 you'd have to believe Hakkinen to be barely better than Perez or Hulk IMO. Hill was an inconsistent driver but again, at his best was very good.

No way are those drivers Inferior to the likes of Grosjean, Sainz or Magnussen.


By 2000-01 i'm of the opinion that Hakinnen was phoning it in, hence the eventual sabbatical that became his retirement. I think Hill is still criminally underated, at his peak i'd happily put him in the same tier 1.5~ that the likes of Rosberg, Button, Montoya et all have resided in down the years. Villeneueve is an odd one. Looked great in his debut season but ultimately came up short, in '97 he did his absolute best to lose that championship in a car that started out the best part of 2 seconds a lap faster than anything else with a teammate in HHF who found himself in an environment made of kryptonite, wheras after that Williams were nowhere and then he pledged the rest of his best years to a project that seemed more about the money than the car. Ultimately though, I think Villenueve was just as quick as anyone in the midfield of today, just the utter guff he comes out with in the years since added to the underwhelming end to his time in F1 has horribly eroded what reputation he might have had.

I agree. He went from dominating Coulthard to just barely beating him. There's a reason he retired so young. He didn't have the fire anymore.

In terms of raw pace, I'd put Coulthard about even with the likes of Nick Heidfeld at best. He was pretty quick in his day but never above average by comparison to the current grid. Guys like DC and Damon had their careers elevated to disproportionate heights due to the timing of when they came into the sport (In the vacuum left behind by Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell). Hakkinen, for me, is probably about the same level as Rosberg/Button overall.

Not top 10 might be a bit harsh for Damon Hill but the point is that these guys were considered top 5 back in the day and none of them would be in that conversation today.


Heidfeld is another driver that would be in the top 10 in next years grid. I would put Hakkinen at peak as good as anyone on the current grid aside from Alonso and Hamilton. His peak was brief though.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:10 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think Hakkinen was better but DC at his best 2000-01 was very close to Hakkinen at his best. For Coulthard at his best not to be in next season's top 10 you'd have to believe Hakkinen to be barely better than Perez or Hulk IMO. Hill was an inconsistent driver but again, at his best was very good.

No way are those drivers Inferior to the likes of Grosjean, Sainz or Magnussen.


By 2000-01 i'm of the opinion that Hakinnen was phoning it in, hence the eventual sabbatical that became his retirement. I think Hill is still criminally underated, at his peak i'd happily put him in the same tier 1.5~ that the likes of Rosberg, Button, Montoya et all have resided in down the years. Villeneueve is an odd one. Looked great in his debut season but ultimately came up short, in '97 he did his absolute best to lose that championship in a car that started out the best part of 2 seconds a lap faster than anything else with a teammate in HHF who found himself in an environment made of kryptonite, wheras after that Williams were nowhere and then he pledged the rest of his best years to a project that seemed more about the money than the car. Ultimately though, I think Villenueve was just as quick as anyone in the midfield of today, just the utter guff he comes out with in the years since added to the underwhelming end to his time in F1 has horribly eroded what reputation he might have had.

I agree. He went from dominating Coulthard to just barely beating him. There's a reason he retired so young. He didn't have the fire anymore.

In terms of raw pace, I'd put Coulthard about even with the likes of Nick Heidfeld at best. He was pretty quick in his day but never above average by comparison to the current grid. Guys like DC and Damon had their careers elevated to disproportionate heights due to the timing of when they came into the sport (In the vacuum left behind by Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell). Hakkinen, for me, is probably about the same level as Rosberg/Button overall.

Not top 10 might be a bit harsh for Damon Hill but the point is that these guys were considered top 5 back in the day and none of them would be in that conversation today.


Heidfeld is another driver that would be in the top 10 in next years grid. I would put Hakkinen at peak as good as anyone on the current grid aside from Alonso and Hamilton. His peak was brief though.


The Adelaide accident that very nearly took his life took its toll. He lost a couple of speed percentages after that but more important was that he mentally exhausted much quicker. Thus also his early retirement.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:12 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Heidfeld is another driver that would be in the top 10 in next years grid. I would put Hakkinen at peak as good as anyone on the current grid aside from Alonso and Hamilton. His peak was brief though.

The Adelaide accident that very nearly took his life took its toll. He lost a couple of speed percentages after that but more important was that he mentally exhausted much quicker. Thus also his early retirement.

This is actually a question Mika directly addresses in Autosport's recent interview with him. His response (don't recall it word-for-word) is that he didn't lose any speed, but it did definitely play a major role in why he decided to give it up so young.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:42 pm 
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Battle Far wrote:
Top thread but...
sandman1347 wrote:
Guys who were big names then like Damon Hill, David Coulthard and Jaques Villeneuve wouldn't even be top 10 drivers in F1 today.
Can't let this go without comment... The same Hill who beat Schumacher in the wet at Suzuka, the same Coulthard who caught and passed Schumacher at Magny-Cours and the same Villeneuve who passed Schumacher round the outside at Estoril...

IMO the best of the rest in F1 today wouldn't get close - Ocon is no quicker than Perez who couldn't catch a cold from Button in their year together, Hulkenberg beat Perez, just, while Alonso thrashed Massa who was quicker than Raikonnen who beat Grosjean.

I can't imagine any of the tier 2 drivers in F1 today getting close to Schumacher in his prime.

Quite likely Vandoorne is as quick if not quicker than all of them given his performances against Alonso.

I predict that should LeClerc get the Ferrari drive he'll be comfortably beating Vettel by the end of next season, some guy on here once suggested that Vettel was the luckiest F1 kid ever since he was given the fastest car in F1 in his second year in the sport (and for the next few years). Let's see how Leclerc does if he gets the same chance.


Perez beat Hulkenberg and generally outperformed him on race day. Hulk was quicker in qualifying though.

Perez and Button were close imo. Perez initially struggled to settle in that team and it was his first year while Button had been there a while. Pace wise I didn't think there was much between them.

That is quite a bold prediction about Leclerc. I think he will do quite well against Vettel in qualifying, but on race day I think Vettel will generallly finish in front. Though he can be error prone Vettel is an absolute beast on race day. IMO in general he has better pace on race day than in qualifying.

I have been very critical of Vandoorne, but even I have to admit I want to see him go up against another driver. I am one to believe it's not easy driving Alonso's cars.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:40 am 
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kleefton wrote:
That is quite a bold prediction about Leclerc. I think he will do quite well against Vettel in qualifying, but on race day I think Vettel will generallly finish in front. Though he can be error prone Vettel is an absolute beast on race day. IMO in general he has better pace on race day than in qualifying.

People said the same thing about Ricciardo, and Vettel lost more heavily in the race against Dan than he did in qualifying - significantly so.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:25 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Battle Far wrote:
Top thread but...
sandman1347 wrote:
Guys who were big names then like Damon Hill, David Coulthard and Jaques Villeneuve wouldn't even be top 10 drivers in F1 today.
Can't let this go without comment... The same Hill who beat Schumacher in the wet at Suzuka, the same Coulthard who caught and passed Schumacher at Magny-Cours and the same Villeneuve who passed Schumacher round the outside at Estoril...

IMO the best of the rest in F1 today wouldn't get close - Ocon is no quicker than Perez who couldn't catch a cold from Button in their year together, Hulkenberg beat Perez, just, while Alonso thrashed Massa who was quicker than Raikonnen who beat Grosjean.

I can't imagine any of the tier 2 drivers in F1 today getting close to Schumacher in his prime.

Quite likely Vandoorne is as quick if not quicker than all of them given his performances against Alonso.

I predict that should LeClerc get the Ferrari drive he'll be comfortably beating Vettel by the end of next season, some guy on here once suggested that Vettel was the luckiest F1 kid ever since he was given the fastest car in F1 in his second year in the sport (and for the next few years). Let's see how Leclerc does if he gets the same chance.


Perez beat Hulkenberg and generally outperformed him on race day. Hulk was quicker in qualifying though.

Perez and Button were close imo. Perez initially struggled to settle in that team and it was his first year while Button had been there a while. Pace wise I didn't think there was much between them.

That is quite a bold prediction about Leclerc. I think he will do quite well against Vettel in qualifying, but on race day I think Vettel will generallly finish in front. Though he can be error prone Vettel is an absolute beast on race day. IMO in general he has better pace on race day than in qualifying.

I have been very critical of Vandoorne, but even I have to admit I want to see him go up against another driver. I am one to believe it's not easy driving Alonso's cars.

I recently got a lot of flak in here for suggesting the same. Just a heads up.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:23 am 
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Covalent wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Battle Far wrote:
Top thread but...
sandman1347 wrote:
Guys who were big names then like Damon Hill, David Coulthard and Jaques Villeneuve wouldn't even be top 10 drivers in F1 today.
Can't let this go without comment... The same Hill who beat Schumacher in the wet at Suzuka, the same Coulthard who caught and passed Schumacher at Magny-Cours and the same Villeneuve who passed Schumacher round the outside at Estoril...

IMO the best of the rest in F1 today wouldn't get close - Ocon is no quicker than Perez who couldn't catch a cold from Button in their year together, Hulkenberg beat Perez, just, while Alonso thrashed Massa who was quicker than Raikonnen who beat Grosjean.

I can't imagine any of the tier 2 drivers in F1 today getting close to Schumacher in his prime.

Quite likely Vandoorne is as quick if not quicker than all of them given his performances against Alonso.

I predict that should LeClerc get the Ferrari drive he'll be comfortably beating Vettel by the end of next season, some guy on here once suggested that Vettel was the luckiest F1 kid ever since he was given the fastest car in F1 in his second year in the sport (and for the next few years). Let's see how Leclerc does if he gets the same chance.


Perez beat Hulkenberg and generally outperformed him on race day. Hulk was quicker in qualifying though.

Perez and Button were close imo. Perez initially struggled to settle in that team and it was his first year while Button had been there a while. Pace wise I didn't think there was much between them.

That is quite a bold prediction about Leclerc. I think he will do quite well against Vettel in qualifying, but on race day I think Vettel will generallly finish in front. Though he can be error prone Vettel is an absolute beast on race day. IMO in general he has better pace on race day than in qualifying.

I have been very critical of Vandoorne, but even I have to admit I want to see him go up against another driver. I am one to believe it's not easy driving Alonso's cars.

I recently got a lot of flak in here for suggesting the same. Just a heads up.


Yes, I think I remember that. :lol:

There is plenty of history to back that up though, whether one agrees with it or not.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:27 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Covalent wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Battle Far wrote:
Top thread but...
sandman1347 wrote:
Guys who were big names then like Damon Hill, David Coulthard and Jaques Villeneuve wouldn't even be top 10 drivers in F1 today.
Can't let this go without comment... The same Hill who beat Schumacher in the wet at Suzuka, the same Coulthard who caught and passed Schumacher at Magny-Cours and the same Villeneuve who passed Schumacher round the outside at Estoril...

IMO the best of the rest in F1 today wouldn't get close - Ocon is no quicker than Perez who couldn't catch a cold from Button in their year together, Hulkenberg beat Perez, just, while Alonso thrashed Massa who was quicker than Raikonnen who beat Grosjean.

I can't imagine any of the tier 2 drivers in F1 today getting close to Schumacher in his prime.

Quite likely Vandoorne is as quick if not quicker than all of them given his performances against Alonso.

I predict that should LeClerc get the Ferrari drive he'll be comfortably beating Vettel by the end of next season, some guy on here once suggested that Vettel was the luckiest F1 kid ever since he was given the fastest car in F1 in his second year in the sport (and for the next few years). Let's see how Leclerc does if he gets the same chance.


Perez beat Hulkenberg and generally outperformed him on race day. Hulk was quicker in qualifying though.

Perez and Button were close imo. Perez initially struggled to settle in that team and it was his first year while Button had been there a while. Pace wise I didn't think there was much between them.

That is quite a bold prediction about Leclerc. I think he will do quite well against Vettel in qualifying, but on race day I think Vettel will generallly finish in front. Though he can be error prone Vettel is an absolute beast on race day. IMO in general he has better pace on race day than in qualifying.

I have been very critical of Vandoorne, but even I have to admit I want to see him go up against another driver. I am one to believe it's not easy driving Alonso's cars.

I recently got a lot of flak in here for suggesting the same. Just a heads up.


Yes, I think I remember that. :lol:

There is plenty of history to back that up though, whether one agrees with it or not.
indeed. There is precedent with Schumacher, where other drivers stated they found his setup almost impossible to drive


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:34 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think what History has shown us is that the likes of Hill, Villenueve and Coulthard were not really that good, Coulthard that got beat by an inexperienced Kimi who is getting beat by Vettel yet Vettel is overrated and Coulthard was good?

Kimi also beat Montoya who perhaps edged Ralf Schumacher who are we giving Hill credit for beating/edging?

Whilst Villenueve managed to become Massa's only victim apart from the talent that is Lance Stroll.


Are we seriously saying that current day Kimi is driving to the same standard as 2003-06 Kimi? I'm not saying these drivers were as good as our current front runners. Just good enough to be considered better than half of next years grid. Hardly a bold statement. Villenueve is the only one with a slight question mark.

I think it's a convenient thing to say that a driver got worse rather than the opposition got better, Kimi over the hill at 28?

Presently we don't know what next year's grid is going to be or the quality of the grid.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:36 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think Hakkinen was better but DC at his best 2000-01 was very close to Hakkinen at his best. For Coulthard at his best not to be in next season's top 10 you'd have to believe Hakkinen to be barely better than Perez or Hulk IMO. Hill was an inconsistent driver but again, at his best was very good.

No way are those drivers Inferior to the likes of Grosjean, Sainz or Magnussen.


By 2000-01 i'm of the opinion that Hakinnen was phoning it in, hence the eventual sabbatical that became his retirement. I think Hill is still criminally underated, at his peak i'd happily put him in the same tier 1.5~ that the likes of Rosberg, Button, Montoya et all have resided in down the years. Villeneueve is an odd one. Looked great in his debut season but ultimately came up short, in '97 he did his absolute best to lose that championship in a car that started out the best part of 2 seconds a lap faster than anything else with a teammate in HHF who found himself in an environment made of kryptonite, wheras after that Williams were nowhere and then he pledged the rest of his best years to a project that seemed more about the money than the car. Ultimately though, I think Villenueve was just as quick as anyone in the midfield of today, just the utter guff he comes out with in the years since added to the underwhelming end to his time in F1 has horribly eroded what reputation he might have had.


Coulthard was as good as Hakkinen in 96 and 97 as well. There was a small window where Hakkinen was better than Coulthard. Was Hakkinen under performing in 96,97 and 00 or was Coulthard under performing in 98 and 99?

I think it's no coincidence that the 2 years that McLaren had a title contending car Hakkinen beat Coulthard easily, Hakkinen stepped up his game.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:38 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think Hakkinen was better but DC at his best 2000-01 was very close to Hakkinen at his best. For Coulthard at his best not to be in next season's top 10 you'd have to believe Hakkinen to be barely better than Perez or Hulk IMO. Hill was an inconsistent driver but again, at his best was very good.

No way are those drivers Inferior to the likes of Grosjean, Sainz or Magnussen.


By 2000-01 i'm of the opinion that Hakinnen was phoning it in, hence the eventual sabbatical that became his retirement. I think Hill is still criminally underated, at his peak i'd happily put him in the same tier 1.5~ that the likes of Rosberg, Button, Montoya et all have resided in down the years. Villeneueve is an odd one. Looked great in his debut season but ultimately came up short, in '97 he did his absolute best to lose that championship in a car that started out the best part of 2 seconds a lap faster than anything else with a teammate in HHF who found himself in an environment made of kryptonite, wheras after that Williams were nowhere and then he pledged the rest of his best years to a project that seemed more about the money than the car. Ultimately though, I think Villenueve was just as quick as anyone in the midfield of today, just the utter guff he comes out with in the years since added to the underwhelming end to his time in F1 has horribly eroded what reputation he might have had.

I agree. He went from dominating Coulthard to just barely beating him. There's a reason he retired so young. He didn't have the fire anymore.

In terms of raw pace, I'd put Coulthard about even with the likes of Nick Heidfeld at best. He was pretty quick in his day but never above average by comparison to the current grid. Guys like DC and Damon had their careers elevated to disproportionate heights due to the timing of when they came into the sport (In the vacuum left behind by Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell). Hakkinen, for me, is probably about the same level as Rosberg/Button overall.

Not top 10 might be a bit harsh for Damon Hill but the point is that these guys were considered top 5 back in the day and none of them would be in that conversation today.


Heidfeld is another driver that would be in the top 10 in next years grid. I would put Hakkinen at peak as good as anyone on the current grid aside from Alonso and Hamilton. His peak was brief though.

Verstappen?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think Hakkinen was better but DC at his best 2000-01 was very close to Hakkinen at his best. For Coulthard at his best not to be in next season's top 10 you'd have to believe Hakkinen to be barely better than Perez or Hulk IMO. Hill was an inconsistent driver but again, at his best was very good.

No way are those drivers Inferior to the likes of Grosjean, Sainz or Magnussen.


By 2000-01 i'm of the opinion that Hakinnen was phoning it in, hence the eventual sabbatical that became his retirement. I think Hill is still criminally underated, at his peak i'd happily put him in the same tier 1.5~ that the likes of Rosberg, Button, Montoya et all have resided in down the years. Villeneueve is an odd one. Looked great in his debut season but ultimately came up short, in '97 he did his absolute best to lose that championship in a car that started out the best part of 2 seconds a lap faster than anything else with a teammate in HHF who found himself in an environment made of kryptonite, wheras after that Williams were nowhere and then he pledged the rest of his best years to a project that seemed more about the money than the car. Ultimately though, I think Villenueve was just as quick as anyone in the midfield of today, just the utter guff he comes out with in the years since added to the underwhelming end to his time in F1 has horribly eroded what reputation he might have had.

I agree. He went from dominating Coulthard to just barely beating him. There's a reason he retired so young. He didn't have the fire anymore.

In terms of raw pace, I'd put Coulthard about even with the likes of Nick Heidfeld at best. He was pretty quick in his day but never above average by comparison to the current grid. Guys like DC and Damon had their careers elevated to disproportionate heights due to the timing of when they came into the sport (In the vacuum left behind by Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell). Hakkinen, for me, is probably about the same level as Rosberg/Button overall.

Not top 10 might be a bit harsh for Damon Hill but the point is that these guys were considered top 5 back in the day and none of them would be in that conversation today.


Heidfeld is another driver that would be in the top 10 in next years grid. I would put Hakkinen at peak as good as anyone on the current grid aside from Alonso and Hamilton. His peak was brief though.


The Adelaide accident that very nearly took his life took its toll. He lost a couple of speed percentages after that but more important was that he mentally exhausted much quicker. Thus also his early retirement.

You mean temporary because there was nothing slow about Hakkinen in his title winning years?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:41 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Heidfeld is another driver that would be in the top 10 in next years grid. I would put Hakkinen at peak as good as anyone on the current grid aside from Alonso and Hamilton. His peak was brief though.

The Adelaide accident that very nearly took his life took its toll. He lost a couple of speed percentages after that but more important was that he mentally exhausted much quicker. Thus also his early retirement.

This is actually a question Mika directly addresses in Autosport's recent interview with him. His response (don't recall it word-for-word) is that he didn't lose any speed, but it did definitely play a major role in why he decided to give it up so young.

Yeah I can see that he won his titles and the car was no longer a title contender.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Battle Far wrote:
Top thread but...
sandman1347 wrote:
Guys who were big names then like Damon Hill, David Coulthard and Jaques Villeneuve wouldn't even be top 10 drivers in F1 today.
Can't let this go without comment... The same Hill who beat Schumacher in the wet at Suzuka, the same Coulthard who caught and passed Schumacher at Magny-Cours and the same Villeneuve who passed Schumacher round the outside at Estoril...

IMO the best of the rest in F1 today wouldn't get close - Ocon is no quicker than Perez who couldn't catch a cold from Button in their year together, Hulkenberg beat Perez, just, while Alonso thrashed Massa who was quicker than Raikonnen who beat Grosjean.

I can't imagine any of the tier 2 drivers in F1 today getting close to Schumacher in his prime.

Quite likely Vandoorne is as quick if not quicker than all of them given his performances against Alonso.

I predict that should LeClerc get the Ferrari drive he'll be comfortably beating Vettel by the end of next season, some guy on here once suggested that Vettel was the luckiest F1 kid ever since he was given the fastest car in F1 in his second year in the sport (and for the next few years). Let's see how Leclerc does if he gets the same chance.


Perez beat Hulkenberg and generally outperformed him on race day. Hulk was quicker in qualifying though.

Perez and Button were close imo. Perez initially struggled to settle in that team and it was his first year while Button had been there a while. Pace wise I didn't think there was much between them.

That is quite a bold prediction about Leclerc. I think he will do quite well against Vettel in qualifying, but on race day I think Vettel will generallly finish in front. Though he can be error prone Vettel is an absolute beast on race day. IMO in general he has better pace on race day than in qualifying.

I have been very critical of Vandoorne, but even I have to admit I want to see him go up against another driver. I am one to believe it's not easy driving Alonso's cars.

I recently got a lot of flak in here for suggesting the same. Just a heads up.

Not from me, there is some smoke. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:53 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think Hakkinen was better but DC at his best 2000-01 was very close to Hakkinen at his best. For Coulthard at his best not to be in next season's top 10 you'd have to believe Hakkinen to be barely better than Perez or Hulk IMO. Hill was an inconsistent driver but again, at his best was very good.

No way are those drivers Inferior to the likes of Grosjean, Sainz or Magnussen.


By 2000-01 i'm of the opinion that Hakinnen was phoning it in, hence the eventual sabbatical that became his retirement. I think Hill is still criminally underated, at his peak i'd happily put him in the same tier 1.5~ that the likes of Rosberg, Button, Montoya et all have resided in down the years. Villeneueve is an odd one. Looked great in his debut season but ultimately came up short, in '97 he did his absolute best to lose that championship in a car that started out the best part of 2 seconds a lap faster than anything else with a teammate in HHF who found himself in an environment made of kryptonite, wheras after that Williams were nowhere and then he pledged the rest of his best years to a project that seemed more about the money than the car. Ultimately though, I think Villenueve was just as quick as anyone in the midfield of today, just the utter guff he comes out with in the years since added to the underwhelming end to his time in F1 has horribly eroded what reputation he might have had.

I agree. He went from dominating Coulthard to just barely beating him. There's a reason he retired so young. He didn't have the fire anymore.

In terms of raw pace, I'd put Coulthard about even with the likes of Nick Heidfeld at best. He was pretty quick in his day but never above average by comparison to the current grid. Guys like DC and Damon had their careers elevated to disproportionate heights due to the timing of when they came into the sport (In the vacuum left behind by Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell). Hakkinen, for me, is probably about the same level as Rosberg/Button overall.

Not top 10 might be a bit harsh for Damon Hill but the point is that these guys were considered top 5 back in the day and none of them would be in that conversation today.


Heidfeld is another driver that would be in the top 10 in next years grid. I would put Hakkinen at peak as good as anyone on the current grid aside from Alonso and Hamilton. His peak was brief though.

Verstappen?


Verstappen now is not as good as peak Hakkinen. Even if he's as quick his race craft still clearly needs work. He's still improving though.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:10 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
By 2000-01 i'm of the opinion that Hakinnen was phoning it in, hence the eventual sabbatical that became his retirement. I think Hill is still criminally underated, at his peak i'd happily put him in the same tier 1.5~ that the likes of Rosberg, Button, Montoya et all have resided in down the years. Villeneueve is an odd one. Looked great in his debut season but ultimately came up short, in '97 he did his absolute best to lose that championship in a car that started out the best part of 2 seconds a lap faster than anything else with a teammate in HHF who found himself in an environment made of kryptonite, wheras after that Williams were nowhere and then he pledged the rest of his best years to a project that seemed more about the money than the car. Ultimately though, I think Villenueve was just as quick as anyone in the midfield of today, just the utter guff he comes out with in the years since added to the underwhelming end to his time in F1 has horribly eroded what reputation he might have had.

I agree. He went from dominating Coulthard to just barely beating him. There's a reason he retired so young. He didn't have the fire anymore.

In terms of raw pace, I'd put Coulthard about even with the likes of Nick Heidfeld at best. He was pretty quick in his day but never above average by comparison to the current grid. Guys like DC and Damon had their careers elevated to disproportionate heights due to the timing of when they came into the sport (In the vacuum left behind by Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell). Hakkinen, for me, is probably about the same level as Rosberg/Button overall.

Not top 10 might be a bit harsh for Damon Hill but the point is that these guys were considered top 5 back in the day and none of them would be in that conversation today.


Heidfeld is another driver that would be in the top 10 in next years grid. I would put Hakkinen at peak as good as anyone on the current grid aside from Alonso and Hamilton. His peak was brief though.

Verstappen?


Verstappen now is not as good as peak Hakkinen. Even if he's as quick his race craft still clearly needs work. He's still improving though.

I'm not thinking about racecraft ultimately you need to be fast.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I'm not thinking about racecraft ultimately you need to be fast.


Yes but right now Verstappen is not as good as peak Hakkinen which is what we are talking about. Seed is an element at play sure but we are discussing how good they are not just how fast.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen now is not as good as peak Hakkinen. Even if he's as quick his race craft still clearly needs work. He's still improving though.

I'm not thinking about racecraft ultimately you need to be fast.

You need both. Racecraft is why Verstappen (and, I would say, Vettel) isn't a good as Hamilton or Alonso (yet, in the case of Verstappen).

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:36 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen now is not as good as peak Hakkinen. Even if he's as quick his race craft still clearly needs work. He's still improving though.

I'm not thinking about racecraft ultimately you need to be fast.

You need both. Racecraft is why Verstappen (and, I would say, Vettel) isn't a good as Hamilton or Alonso (yet, in the case of Verstappen).



Yep, but if I had to choose a driver for Ferrari or Mercedes out of Verstappen (raw speed) and Ricciardo (racecraft) I'd take a punt on Verstappen, even if he was much older like Vettel and we assumed he wouldn't make much further ground regarding racecraft. Ricciardo is very good but Verstappen is comprehensively beating him in qualifying and in the end that consistent better track position should matter more at the very top... in theory. I tend to think that his pace advantage also tends to carry over into races.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:41 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen now is not as good as peak Hakkinen. Even if he's as quick his race craft still clearly needs work. He's still improving though.

I'm not thinking about racecraft ultimately you need to be fast.

You need both. Racecraft is why Verstappen (and, I would say, Vettel) isn't a good as Hamilton or Alonso (yet, in the case of Verstappen).



Yep, but if I had to choose a driver for Ferrari or Mercedes out of Verstappen (raw speed) and Ricciardo (racecraft) I'd take a punt on Verstappen, even if he was much older like Vettel and we assumed he wouldn't make much further ground regarding racecraft. Ricciardo is very good but Verstappen is comprehensively beating him in qualifying and in the end that consistent better track position should matter more at the very top... in theory. I tend to think that his pace advantage also tends to carry over into races.


This is true but nobody has claimed that Ricciardo is better than Verstappen or Hakkinen so I'm not sure it's relevant in this discussion?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:28 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen now is not as good as peak Hakkinen. Even if he's as quick his race craft still clearly needs work. He's still improving though.

I'm not thinking about racecraft ultimately you need to be fast.

You need both. Racecraft is why Verstappen (and, I would say, Vettel) isn't a good as Hamilton or Alonso (yet, in the case of Verstappen).



Yep, but if I had to choose a driver for Ferrari or Mercedes out of Verstappen (raw speed) and Ricciardo (racecraft) I'd take a punt on Verstappen, even if he was much older like Vettel and we assumed he wouldn't make much further ground regarding racecraft. Ricciardo is very good but Verstappen is comprehensively beating him in qualifying and in the end that consistent better track position should matter more at the very top... in theory. I tend to think that his pace advantage also tends to carry over into races.


This is true but nobody has claimed that Ricciardo is better than Verstappen or Hakkinen so I'm not sure it's relevant in this discussion?


Who cares? It's just a little extra furthering a discussion on paradigm.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:31 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
By 2000-01 i'm of the opinion that Hakinnen was phoning it in, hence the eventual sabbatical that became his retirement. I think Hill is still criminally underated, at his peak i'd happily put him in the same tier 1.5~ that the likes of Rosberg, Button, Montoya et all have resided in down the years. Villeneueve is an odd one. Looked great in his debut season but ultimately came up short, in '97 he did his absolute best to lose that championship in a car that started out the best part of 2 seconds a lap faster than anything else with a teammate in HHF who found himself in an environment made of kryptonite, wheras after that Williams were nowhere and then he pledged the rest of his best years to a project that seemed more about the money than the car. Ultimately though, I think Villenueve was just as quick as anyone in the midfield of today, just the utter guff he comes out with in the years since added to the underwhelming end to his time in F1 has horribly eroded what reputation he might have had.

I agree. He went from dominating Coulthard to just barely beating him. There's a reason he retired so young. He didn't have the fire anymore.

In terms of raw pace, I'd put Coulthard about even with the likes of Nick Heidfeld at best. He was pretty quick in his day but never above average by comparison to the current grid. Guys like DC and Damon had their careers elevated to disproportionate heights due to the timing of when they came into the sport (In the vacuum left behind by Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell). Hakkinen, for me, is probably about the same level as Rosberg/Button overall.

Not top 10 might be a bit harsh for Damon Hill but the point is that these guys were considered top 5 back in the day and none of them would be in that conversation today.


Heidfeld is another driver that would be in the top 10 in next years grid. I would put Hakkinen at peak as good as anyone on the current grid aside from Alonso and Hamilton. His peak was brief though.

Verstappen?


Verstappen now is not as good as peak Hakkinen. Even if he's as quick his race craft still clearly needs work. He's still improving though.

I would be of the belief that Verstappen is faster, Ricciardo has better racecraft than Verstappen but who did Red Bull target as their first priority to sign long term?

A steadier driver is always going to be in trouble against a faster driver reliant on that driver to make mistakes.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:36 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen now is not as good as peak Hakkinen. Even if he's as quick his race craft still clearly needs work. He's still improving though.

I'm not thinking about racecraft ultimately you need to be fast.

You need both. Racecraft is why Verstappen (and, I would say, Vettel) isn't a good as Hamilton or Alonso (yet, in the case of Verstappen).

I agree you need both but lacking race craft is perhaps better than lacking latent speed, Kimi has better race craft than Vettel but not the speed to beat him.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:46 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen now is not as good as peak Hakkinen. Even if he's as quick his race craft still clearly needs work. He's still improving though.

I'm not thinking about racecraft ultimately you need to be fast.

You need both. Racecraft is why Verstappen (and, I would say, Vettel) isn't a good as Hamilton or Alonso (yet, in the case of Verstappen).

I agree you need both but lacking race craft is perhaps better than lacking latent speed, Kimi has better race craft than Vettel but not the speed to beat him.


Yeah... you can learn racecraft, you can't learn outright speed.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:07 am 
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Grosjean
Perez
Hulkenberg
Bottas
Ricciardo

A group of drivers who debuted at the wrong time, at the start of the Hamilton-Vettel era. They've spend their entire career fighting for scraps while Hamilton and Vettel have won something like 60% of the races in this decade.

Out of that group, I feel the most for Perez and Hulkenberg, because they never even drove a top car. Bottas has had a WDC capable car for at least two seasons now. Ricciardo and Grosjean drove race winning cars with Red Bull and Lotus respectively.

In the next generation (2020 onward), we will have Leclerc at Ferrari, Verstappen and Gasly at Red Bull, and perhaps Russell at Mercedes occupying the top seats. The likes of Ric, Hulk, and Perez might sadly never get a chance.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:12 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Heidfeld is another driver that would be in the top 10 in next years grid. I would put Hakkinen at peak as good as anyone on the current grid aside from Alonso and Hamilton. His peak was brief though.

I think that peak Vettel > peak Hakkinen

Raw speed is difficult to compare, but Vettel's advantage over Webber was at least as big as Hakkinen's advantage over Coulthard.

People criticized Vettel for his mistakes, but Hakkinen threw away two race wins from the lead in 1999.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:37 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Heidfeld is another driver that would be in the top 10 in next years grid. I would put Hakkinen at peak as good as anyone on the current grid aside from Alonso and Hamilton. His peak was brief though.

I think that peak Vettel > peak Hakkinen

Raw speed is difficult to compare, but Vettel's advantage over Webber was at least as big as Hakkinen's advantage over Coulthard.

People criticized Vettel for his mistakes, but Hakkinen threw away two race wins from the lead in 1999.


In fairness that would only be one in modern F1.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:48 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Grosjean
Perez
Hulkenberg
Bottas
Ricciardo

A group of drivers who debuted at the wrong time, at the start of the Hamilton-Vettel era. They've spend their entire career fighting for scraps while Hamilton and Vettel have won something like 60% of the races in this decade.

Out of that group, I feel the most for Perez and Hulkenberg, because they never even drove a top car. Bottas has had a WDC capable car for at least two seasons now. Ricciardo and Grosjean drove race winning cars with Red Bull and Lotus respectively.

In the next generation (2020 onward), we will have Leclerc at Ferrari, Verstappen and Gasly at Red Bull, and perhaps Russell at Mercedes occupying the top seats. The likes of Ric, Hulk, and Perez might sadly never get a chance.

I don't see a list of potential world champions there, their misfortune is being up against drivers that have been that bit better.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:50 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Heidfeld is another driver that would be in the top 10 in next years grid. I would put Hakkinen at peak as good as anyone on the current grid aside from Alonso and Hamilton. His peak was brief though.

I think that peak Vettel > peak Hakkinen

Raw speed is difficult to compare, but Vettel's advantage over Webber was at least as big as Hakkinen's advantage over Coulthard.

People criticized Vettel for his mistakes, but Hakkinen threw away two race wins from the lead in 1999.

All of Coulthard's teamates seemed to have a similar speed advantage over him, that being Hakkinen, Kimi and Webber.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:29 am 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Grosjean
Perez
Hulkenberg
Bottas
Ricciardo

I don't see a list of potential world champions there, their misfortune is being up against drivers that have been that bit better.

I think Ricciardo definitely has the misfortune of the Red Bull no longer competing for championships. If he had performed the same against his teammate as he did from 2014-2018 but the car was as quick as it was from 2009-2013, he would have won a championship by now (most likely 3). That Verstappen is probably faster than him doesn't really matter, since this is on course to be the first year where Max has actually outscored him.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:21 am 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Grosjean
Perez
Hulkenberg
Bottas
Ricciardo

A group of drivers who debuted at the wrong time, at the start of the Hamilton-Vettel era. They've spend their entire career fighting for scraps while Hamilton and Vettel have won something like 60% of the races in this decade.

Out of that group, I feel the most for Perez and Hulkenberg, because they never even drove a top car. Bottas has had a WDC capable car for at least two seasons now. Ricciardo and Grosjean drove race winning cars with Red Bull and Lotus respectiv

In the next generation (2020 onward), we will have Leclerc at Ferrari, Verstappen and Gasly at Red Bull, and perhaps Russell at Mercedes occupying the top seats. The likes of Ric, Hulk, and Perez might sadly never get a chance.

I don't see a list of potential world champions there, their misfortune is being up against drivers that have been that bit better.


Ricciardo certainly has the potential, he was in the conversation for driver of the year twice in the turbo era, only the car has got in his way really otherwise he could have had at least 1 title. We see it nearly every year when the Red Bull is competitive he can take the spoils, he just needs the car. That Max can beat him says more about Max I think.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:20 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It's just crazy that, with Raikkonen and Alonso retiring after this season, Hamilton and Vettel will literally be the only two drivers in the field who have ever won a WDC! I don't think I can remember a time where there were only two former WDCs in the field.

Leclerc is taking the first shot for the younger generation. He will likely have the car underneath him to win with and, if he's the same caliber of driver as Sebastian Vettel, we will know so right away.

How about the start of the 1996 season? Was Schumi the only WDC?

Good, thought-provoking thread BTW :thumbup:

2007, Alonso was the only WDC!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:40 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Heidfeld is another driver that would be in the top 10 in next years grid. I would put Hakkinen at peak as good as anyone on the current grid aside from Alonso and Hamilton. His peak was brief though.

I think that peak Vettel > peak Hakkinen

Raw speed is difficult to compare, but Vettel's advantage over Webber was at least as big as Hakkinen's advantage over Coulthard.

People criticized Vettel for his mistakes, but Hakkinen threw away two race wins from the lead in 1999.

I actually agree that Vettel is probably a bit faster than Hakkinen. Hard to judge because they never drove the same cars (or even under the same regs) but, for me, Vettel has one of the higher ceilings in F1 history in terms of just speed.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Grosjean
Perez
Hulkenberg
Bottas
Ricciardo

A group of drivers who debuted at the wrong time, at the start of the Hamilton-Vettel era. They've spend their entire career fighting for scraps while Hamilton and Vettel have won something like 60% of the races in this decade.

Out of that group, I feel the most for Perez and Hulkenberg, because they never even drove a top car. Bottas has had a WDC capable car for at least two seasons now. Ricciardo and Grosjean drove race winning cars with Red Bull and Lotus respectiv

In the next generation (2020 onward), we will have Leclerc at Ferrari, Verstappen and Gasly at Red Bull, and perhaps Russell at Mercedes occupying the top seats. The likes of Ric, Hulk, and Perez might sadly never get a chance.

I don't see a list of potential world champions there, their misfortune is being up against drivers that have been that bit better.


Ricciardo certainly has the potential, he was in the conversation for driver of the year twice in the turbo era, only the car has got in his way really otherwise he could have had at least 1 title. We see it nearly every year when the Red Bull is competitive he can take the spoils, he just needs the car. That Max can beat him says more about Max I think.

Well that's what I meant, given how much better Verstappen is then it's hard for me to see him as a future world champion unless Renault can produce the best car, that's a big ask?

Just because Ricciardo beat Vettel in 2014 I don't understand how you extrapolate it was only the car that stopped him being world champion unless again we are giving him the best car because I don't rate him as good as Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:17 pm 
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I have always had the impression that if Vettel is out in front driving his own race, he is way up there.
Its when he has to interact and actually race he seems to lose out. A combination of this, and the blown Red Bull being to his liking while others struggle with the way they had to be driven put him in a bracket of his own for a couple of years.

Not saying that he is not a good driver now, he just seems not to be at his best if he has to handle anything except going as fast as he can. I think Max may well be the same type of driver, full on or distracted.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:20 pm 
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moby wrote:
I have always had the impression that if Vettel is out in front driving his own race, he is way up there.
Its when he has to interact and actually race he seems to lose out. A combination of this, and the blown Red Bull being to his liking while others struggle with the way they had to be driven put him in a bracket of his own for a couple of years.

Not saying that he is not a good driver now, he just seems not to be at his best if he has to handle anything except going as fast as he can. I think Max may well be the same type of driver, full on or distracted.

What makes you think that other drivers, not being Webber, struggled to drive the exhaust blown cars?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:27 pm 
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They said so. It means the throttle had to be down when cornering which is contrary to instinct. More throttle = more flow = more downforce, slight lift, loss of downforce mid bend.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:30 pm 
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moby wrote:
They said so. It means the throttle had to be down when cornering which is contrary to instinct. More throttle = more flow = more downforce, slight lift, loss of downforce mid bend.

They said it about Webber and there's nothing new about exhaust blown downforce, they had them back in the 80s.

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