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 Post subject: Privateer's Championship
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:26 pm 
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It would be nice if there was championship tables and stats for privateer / non works teams and drivers back to 1950 so we can see who the real talent is without the additional engine / moneybags advantages the car manufacturers get. Maybe someone like Dolomite could bring these stats up please? ;) ;) ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:59 pm 
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Who exactly are we counting as privateers here? We could say:

Red Bull [but are they really a privateer?]
RPFI
Williams
Toro Rosso [but Honda works team?]
Haas [but surely they're effectively a satellite Ferrari team?]
McLaren
Sauber [but again, Ferrari satellite?]

Answer that one and I'll build a new spreadsheet for that and see what it churns out.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:41 am 
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I think anyone not a manufacturer of road cars counts as a true privateer alothpugh strictly speaking a privateer ought to be privately owned. For example, McLaren began as a privateer but as they began producing road cars they transformed into a larger bluechip business structure.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:59 am 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
I think anyone not a manufacturer of road cars counts as a true privateer alothpugh strictly speaking a privateer ought to be privately owned. For example, McLaren began as a privateer but as they began producing road cars they transformed into a larger bluechip business structure.


Even that's not black and white. Haven't Sauber produced a road car and I know you can definantely buy a Ligier road car. What about the team called Caterham or Lotus? I don't think we really have privateers at all now anyway. It's car manufacturers, big business or capital investment firms.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:10 pm 
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Anyone without works support could be classified as a privateer.

Its hard to define.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:41 pm 
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I'd say a privateer is any team where the decision making is still being done by a private individual who runs the team and not a corporate entity. Williams is still a privateer. Force India certainly was, although I don't know what they'll look like now. Haas is a privateer. Sauber I would say no longer is, following what is effectively a Ferrari takeover. McLaren is definitely not a privateer anymore - the board and the middle eastern investors make all the calls in the end.

So yeah, I'd say just Williams, Haas and probably Force India.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
I'd say a privateer is any team where the decision making is still being done by a private individual who runs the team and not a corporate entity. Williams is still a privateer. Force India certainly was, although I don't know what they'll look like now. Haas is a privateer. Sauber I would say no longer is, following what is effectively a Ferrari takeover. McLaren is definitely not a privateer anymore - the board and the middle eastern investors make all the calls in the end.

So yeah, I'd say just Williams, Haas and probably Force India.


I don't think Haas is anymore a privateer than Red Bull.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:14 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I'd say a privateer is any team where the decision making is still being done by a private individual who runs the team and not a corporate entity. Williams is still a privateer. Force India certainly was, although I don't know what they'll look like now. Haas is a privateer. Sauber I would say no longer is, following what is effectively a Ferrari takeover. McLaren is definitely not a privateer anymore - the board and the middle eastern investors make all the calls in the end.

So yeah, I'd say just Williams, Haas and probably Force India.

I don't think Haas is anymore a privateer than Red Bull.

Red Bull is a weird one, and in a lot of ways they do actually fit the bill for being a privateer, since I have the impression that all decisions ultimately end with Mateschitz if he wants them to. They also don't make any road cars, so they'd fit that definition as well. I suppose one could argue that Red Bull is just a very, very well funded privateer.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:36 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I'd say a privateer is any team where the decision making is still being done by a private individual who runs the team and not a corporate entity. Williams is still a privateer. Force India certainly was, although I don't know what they'll look like now. Haas is a privateer. Sauber I would say no longer is, following what is effectively a Ferrari takeover. McLaren is definitely not a privateer anymore - the board and the middle eastern investors make all the calls in the end.

So yeah, I'd say just Williams, Haas and probably Force India.

I don't think Haas is anymore a privateer than Red Bull.

Red Bull is a weird one, and in a lot of ways they do actually fit the bill for being a privateer, since I have the impression that all decisions ultimately end with Mateschitz if he wants them to. They also don't make any road cars, so they'd fit that definition as well. I suppose one could argue that Red Bull is just a very, very well funded privateer.


I think they fit just about any sensible definition that wouldn't exclude every other team on the grid.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:16 pm 
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Williams have had their name on road cars, as have Brabham, Cooper, and probably several more that do not immediately come to mind. Lotus, Caterham, Ligier, etc would also be excluded as would cosworth


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