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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:52 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
He (Moss) is held in a very high standard even though he never won anything.
He didn't exactly never win anything...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:00 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
He (Moss) is held in a very high standard even though he never won anything.
He didn't exactly never win anything...


We are talking in WDC terms, I should have been more specific I guess


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:49 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Maybe because Hawthorn died a long time ago and we see Moss around from time to time?


Dying young didn't do any harm for the fame of many other WDC's.

Are we talking about avid fans or the general public?


I guess in this context people are talking generally about fans of F1.


In any case, the OP does not mention much regarding the fans, he opened this thread in this forum, where most of the fans are somewhat educated in this difficult sport compared to the Youtube fanboys. People here read books, watch old races, hell the older members actually attended a few as well. So I suspect (Invade will have to confirm his intentions I guess) that this thread is meant for us. This is why I was arguing with MB-BOB, an avid fan from what he says in the other post, that we do know a few stuff about Moss and how he is praised by his contemporaries. He is held in a very high standard even though he never won anything.


In the sixties, I recall that Stirling Moss was regarded as a British driver who won (dominated) the 1955 thousand-mile Mille Miglia road race in Italy. Several racing press hailed it as a drive to be remembered forever. And it was.

Focus on this single accomplishment masked more interesting facts about Moss, and illustrates my point. That drivers will be known for their principle achievements, even among serious racing fans.

One has to dig deeper to realize that Moss won 212 of the 529 races he entered across several categories of competition. Between 1955 and 1961 Moss finished as F1 championship runner-up four times and third the remaining three. This earned him the unofficial title, "the greatest driver never to win the World Championship."

But the first thing that comes to mind today about Moss (for this involved F1 fan)... is his epic Mille Miglia win.... Not all the niggly ifs, ands, and buts, or how Moss aided Hawthorn in beating him to Hawthorn's single 1958 WDC. (Look it up).

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:42 pm 
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MB-BOB wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Are we talking about avid fans or the general public?


I guess in this context people are talking generally about fans of F1.


In any case, the OP does not mention much regarding the fans, he opened this thread in this forum, where most of the fans are somewhat educated in this difficult sport compared to the Youtube fanboys. People here read books, watch old races, hell the older members actually attended a few as well. So I suspect (Invade will have to confirm his intentions I guess) that this thread is meant for us. This is why I was arguing with MB-BOB, an avid fan from what he says in the other post, that we do know a few stuff about Moss and how he is praised by his contemporaries. He is held in a very high standard even though he never won anything.


In the sixties, I recall that Stirling Moss was regarded as a British driver who won (dominated) the 1955 thousand-mile Mille Miglia road race in Italy. Several racing press hailed it as a drive to be remembered forever. And it was.

Focus on this single accomplishment masked more interesting facts about Moss, and illustrates my point. That drivers will be known for their principle achievements, even among serious racing fans.

One has to dig deeper to realize that Moss won 212 of the 529 races he entered across several categories of competition. Between 1955 and 1961 Moss finished as F1 championship runner-up four times and third the remaining three. This earned him the unofficial title, "the greatest driver never to win the World Championship."

But the first thing that comes to mind today about Moss (for this involved F1 fan)... is his epic Mille Miglia win.... Not all the niggly ifs, ands, and buts, or how Moss aided Hawthorn in beating him to Hawthorn's single 1958 WDC. (Look it up).


I beg to differ. Open any website and you'll see the bold part first, not that he won the Mille Miglia or the Targa Florio. Also, his career high is often considered his epic Monaco drive in an old Lotus against the mighty Ferraris, or beating Fangio by three whole minutes (I can't remember which race that was), but that is I guess down to preference.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Are we talking about avid fans or the general public?


I guess in this context people are talking generally about fans of F1.


In any case, the OP does not mention much regarding the fans, he opened this thread in this forum, where most of the fans are somewhat educated in this difficult sport compared to the Youtube fanboys. People here read books, watch old races, hell the older members actually attended a few as well. So I suspect (Invade will have to confirm his intentions I guess) that this thread is meant for us. This is why I was arguing with MB-BOB, an avid fan from what he says in the other post, that we do know a few stuff about Moss and how he is praised by his contemporaries. He is held in a very high standard even though he never won anything.


In the sixties, I recall that Stirling Moss was regarded as a British driver who won (dominated) the 1955 thousand-mile Mille Miglia road race in Italy. Several racing press hailed it as a drive to be remembered forever. And it was.

Focus on this single accomplishment masked more interesting facts about Moss, and illustrates my point. That drivers will be known for their principle achievements, even among serious racing fans.

One has to dig deeper to realize that Moss won 212 of the 529 races he entered across several categories of competition. Between 1955 and 1961 Moss finished as F1 championship runner-up four times and third the remaining three. This earned him the unofficial title, "the greatest driver never to win the World Championship."

But the first thing that comes to mind today about Moss (for this involved F1 fan)... is his epic Mille Miglia win.... Not all the niggly ifs, ands, and buts, or how Moss aided Hawthorn in beating him to Hawthorn's single 1958 WDC. (Look it up).


I beg to differ. Open any website and you'll see the bold part first, not that he won the Mille Miglia or the Targa Florio. Also, his career high is often considered his epic Monaco drive in an old Lotus against the mighty Ferraris, or beating Fangio by three whole minutes (I can't remember which race that was), but that is I guess down to preference.

At this website, Moss' Mille Miglia episode comprises a full 10 paragraph narrative, followed by a 6 paragraph (only) summary of his entire F1 career. This included 3 sentences regarding the underpowered Lotus, and the masterful (my words) 3.6 second win in the 1961 Monaco GP, against three ill-handling Ferraris.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_Moss

I do not intend to quibble back and forth regarding my first person memories of Moss' memorable career. Indeed he will be remembered BOTH for his Mille Miglia WIN, and being, "the greatest driver never to win the World Championship."

Ask Stirling Moss which he cherishes more, as he's given several gleeful interviews about the Mille Miglia (can't find any about almost winning a WDC).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07CiCpf9kek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWlI2ANL_u8

In this clip, he describes the Mille Miglia as his finest race, ever (1:52)... that he prefered -- and performed best -- racing "sports cars" cars over F1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nke5V0q4ZbQ

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:03 pm 
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MB-BOB wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

In any case, the OP does not mention much regarding the fans, he opened this thread in this forum, where most of the fans are somewhat educated in this difficult sport compared to the Youtube fanboys. People here read books, watch old races, hell the older members actually attended a few as well. So I suspect (Invade will have to confirm his intentions I guess) that this thread is meant for us. This is why I was arguing with MB-BOB, an avid fan from what he says in the other post, that we do know a few stuff about Moss and how he is praised by his contemporaries. He is held in a very high standard even though he never won anything.


In the sixties, I recall that Stirling Moss was regarded as a British driver who won (dominated) the 1955 thousand-mile Mille Miglia road race in Italy. Several racing press hailed it as a drive to be remembered forever. And it was.

Focus on this single accomplishment masked more interesting facts about Moss, and illustrates my point. That drivers will be known for their principle achievements, even among serious racing fans.

One has to dig deeper to realize that Moss won 212 of the 529 races he entered across several categories of competition. Between 1955 and 1961 Moss finished as F1 championship runner-up four times and third the remaining three. This earned him the unofficial title, "the greatest driver never to win the World Championship."

But the first thing that comes to mind today about Moss (for this involved F1 fan)... is his epic Mille Miglia win.... Not all the niggly ifs, ands, and buts, or how Moss aided Hawthorn in beating him to Hawthorn's single 1958 WDC. (Look it up).


I beg to differ. Open any website and you'll see the bold part first, not that he won the Mille Miglia or the Targa Florio. Also, his career high is often considered his epic Monaco drive in an old Lotus against the mighty Ferraris, or beating Fangio by three whole minutes (I can't remember which race that was), but that is I guess down to preference.

At this website, Moss' Mille Miglia episode comprises a full 10 paragraph narrative, followed by a 6 paragraph (only) summary of his entire F1 career. This included 3 sentences regarding the underpowered Lotus, and the masterful (my words) 3.6 second win in the 1961 Monaco GP, against three ill-handling Ferraris.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_Moss

I do not intend to quibble back and forth regarding my first person memories of Moss' memorable career. Indeed he will be remembered BOTH for his Mille Miglia WIN, and being, "the greatest driver never to win the World Championship."

Ask Stirling Moss which he cherishes more, as he's given several gleeful interviews about the Mille Miglia (can't find any about almost winning a WDC).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07CiCpf9kek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWlI2ANL_u8

In this clip, he describes the Mille Miglia as his finest race, ever (1:52)... that he prefered -- and performed best -- racing "sports cars" cars over F1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nke5V0q4ZbQ

Not sure I'm following, the wiki article you quoted has the "the greatest driver never to win the World Championship" quote in the opening paragraph with no mention of the Mille Miglia race. You do realise that this is going into silly arguments now, right?

The whole point is that people still remember and rate highly drivers like Moss, Gille Villeneuve, von Trip, etc. without them ever winning a WDC.


As for Moss, I'm not sure how much it matters here what he cherishes as his finest moment really


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:03 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

In any case, the OP does not mention much regarding the fans, he opened this thread in this forum, where most of the fans are somewhat educated in this difficult sport compared to the Youtube fanboys. People here read books, watch old races, hell the older members actually attended a few as well. So I suspect (Invade will have to confirm his intentions I guess) that this thread is meant for us. This is why I was arguing with MB-BOB, an avid fan from what he says in the other post, that we do know a few stuff about Moss and how he is praised by his contemporaries. He is held in a very high standard even though he never won anything.


In the sixties, I recall that Stirling Moss was regarded as a British driver who won (dominated) the 1955 thousand-mile Mille Miglia road race in Italy. Several racing press hailed it as a drive to be remembered forever. And it was.

Focus on this single accomplishment masked more interesting facts about Moss, and illustrates my point. That drivers will be known for their principle achievements, even among serious racing fans.

One has to dig deeper to realize that Moss won 212 of the 529 races he entered across several categories of competition. Between 1955 and 1961 Moss finished as F1 championship runner-up four times and third the remaining three. This earned him the unofficial title, "the greatest driver never to win the World Championship."

But the first thing that comes to mind today about Moss (for this involved F1 fan)... is his epic Mille Miglia win.... Not all the niggly ifs, ands, and buts, or how Moss aided Hawthorn in beating him to Hawthorn's single 1958 WDC. (Look it up).


I beg to differ. Open any website and you'll see the bold part first, not that he won the Mille Miglia or the Targa Florio. Also, his career high is often considered his epic Monaco drive in an old Lotus against the mighty Ferraris, or beating Fangio by three whole minutes (I can't remember which race that was), but that is I guess down to preference.

At this website, Moss' Mille Miglia episode comprises a full 10 paragraph narrative, followed by a 6 paragraph (only) summary of his entire F1 career. This included 3 sentences regarding the underpowered Lotus, and the masterful (my words) 3.6 second win in the 1961 Monaco GP, against three ill-handling Ferraris.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_Moss

I do not intend to quibble back and forth regarding my first person memories of Moss' memorable career. Indeed he will be remembered BOTH for his Mille Miglia WIN, and being, "the greatest driver never to win the World Championship."

Ask Stirling Moss which he cherishes more, as he's given several gleeful interviews about the Mille Miglia (can't find any about almost winning a WDC).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07CiCpf9kek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWlI2ANL_u8

In this clip, he describes the Mille Miglia as his finest race, ever (1:52)... that he prefered -- and performed best -- racing "sports cars" cars over F1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nke5V0q4ZbQ

Not sure I'm following, the wiki article you quoted has the "the greatest driver never to win the World Championship" quote in the opening paragraph with no mention of the Mille Miglia race. You do realise that this is going into silly arguments now, right?

The whole point is that people still remember and rate highly drivers like Moss, Gille Villeneuve, von Trip, etc. without them ever winning a WDC.


As for Moss, I'm not sure how much it matters here what he cherishes as his finest moment really
Yes indeed, silly. You chide me for pointing out major accomplishments as more important than the ticky-dot details, while asserting that the opening paragraph in the very lengthy Wiki article is the only (important) point worth mentioning. Silly, indeed.

You will find all the references I noted further below for all the nitty-gritty details that people love to cite when it supports an opinion and to pick apart when it does not. Read the entire wiki reference and watch the videos. I have.

If someone mentions an event in their life as the most notable among several -- specifically noting his sports car victorys as more important than Formula 1 -- then I believe such 1st hand experience and opinion from the person who lived it trumps everyone's arm-chair opinion, both yours and mine.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:30 pm 
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MB-BOB wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:

In the sixties, I recall that Stirling Moss was regarded as a British driver who won (dominated) the 1955 thousand-mile Mille Miglia road race in Italy. Several racing press hailed it as a drive to be remembered forever. And it was.

Focus on this single accomplishment masked more interesting facts about Moss, and illustrates my point. That drivers will be known for their principle achievements, even among serious racing fans.

One has to dig deeper to realize that Moss won 212 of the 529 races he entered across several categories of competition. Between 1955 and 1961 Moss finished as F1 championship runner-up four times and third the remaining three. This earned him the unofficial title, "the greatest driver never to win the World Championship."

But the first thing that comes to mind today about Moss (for this involved F1 fan)... is his epic Mille Miglia win.... Not all the niggly ifs, ands, and buts, or how Moss aided Hawthorn in beating him to Hawthorn's single 1958 WDC. (Look it up).


I beg to differ. Open any website and you'll see the bold part first, not that he won the Mille Miglia or the Targa Florio. Also, his career high is often considered his epic Monaco drive in an old Lotus against the mighty Ferraris, or beating Fangio by three whole minutes (I can't remember which race that was), but that is I guess down to preference.

At this website, Moss' Mille Miglia episode comprises a full 10 paragraph narrative, followed by a 6 paragraph (only) summary of his entire F1 career. This included 3 sentences regarding the underpowered Lotus, and the masterful (my words) 3.6 second win in the 1961 Monaco GP, against three ill-handling Ferraris.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_Moss

I do not intend to quibble back and forth regarding my first person memories of Moss' memorable career. Indeed he will be remembered BOTH for his Mille Miglia WIN, and being, "the greatest driver never to win the World Championship."

Ask Stirling Moss which he cherishes more, as he's given several gleeful interviews about the Mille Miglia (can't find any about almost winning a WDC).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07CiCpf9kek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWlI2ANL_u8

In this clip, he describes the Mille Miglia as his finest race, ever (1:52)... that he prefered -- and performed best -- racing "sports cars" cars over F1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nke5V0q4ZbQ

Not sure I'm following, the wiki article you quoted has the "the greatest driver never to win the World Championship" quote in the opening paragraph with no mention of the Mille Miglia race. You do realise that this is going into silly arguments now, right?

The whole point is that people still remember and rate highly drivers like Moss, Gille Villeneuve, von Trip, etc. without them ever winning a WDC.


As for Moss, I'm not sure how much it matters here what he cherishes as his finest moment really
Yes indeed, silly. You chide me for pointing out major accomplishments as more important than the ticky-dot details, while asserting that the opening paragraph in the very lengthy Wiki article is the only (important) point worth mentioning. Silly, indeed.

You will find all the references I noted further below for all the nitty-gritty details that people love to cite when it supports an opinion and to pick apart when it does not. Read the entire wiki reference and watch the videos. I have.

If someone mentions an event in their life as the most notable among several -- specifically noting his sports car victorys as more important than Formula 1 -- then I believe such 1st hand experience and opinion from the person who lived it trumps everyone's arm-chair opinion, both yours and mine.

Chiding you? We are having a discussion, I'm not chiding nor scolding anyone, I'm not anyone's parent here!!!

So you assert the importance by the length of the paragraphs? The opening paragraph is the most important bit I'd think, a short summary of what he is remembered by, don't you think? Also, the Mille Milgia is a narrative of the whole race, if you do that for every race in his F1 career you'd have a different narrative.

And this website has two lines mentioning the Mille Miglia only: (http://www.grandprixhistory.org/moss_bio.htm). ESPN (http://en.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/driver/534.html) only mentions "That year he also won the gruelling Mille Miglia". What does this prove?

Also, when asking the public for their view, it really does not make much difference what the driver thinks.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:37 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Also, when asking the public for their view, it really does not make much difference what the driver thinks.


This assertion is ludicrous. But never mind. I do have a life, and more important things to do than eat, drink, and sleep Formula One. I'm done with this. Carry on...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:45 am 
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MB-BOB wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Also, when asking the public for their view, it really does not make much difference what the driver thinks.


This assertion is ludicrous. But never mind. I do have a life, and more important things to do than eat, drink, and sleep Formula One. I'm done with this. Carry on...


And the rest of us don't? Ok, disagree with my opinion if you wish, just leave alone the silly comments aside. Talking about F1 (you seem to forget about this) I do not put too much weight on the race he cherishes most outside F1. It's rate the multi F1 WDCs, emphasis on the F1 career.

Forget Moss, take any other great driver that did not win the WDC. See how they are remembered even if they did not win any titles. See how fans remember and rate Gilles and then tell me that only numbers count... That is what is ludicrous. Numbers are good to back some claims, but do not always give the whole picture.

Carry on indeed


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:01 am 
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1:
Michael Schumacher

2:
Alain Prost
Aryton Senna
Sebastian Vettel

3:
Niki Lauda
Lewis Hamilton
Nelson Piquet

4:
Mika Häkkinen
Fernando Alonso

Emeritus:

Jim Clark
Juan Manuel Fangio
Alberto Ascari
Graham Hill
Emerson Fittipaldi
Jack Brabham
Jackie Stewart


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:56 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
1:
Michael Schumacher

2:
Alain Prost
Aryton Senna
Sebastian Vettel

3:
Niki Lauda
Lewis Hamilton
Nelson Piquet

4:
Mika Häkkinen
Fernando Alonso

Emeritus:

Jim Clark
Juan Manuel Fangio
Alberto Ascari
Graham Hill
Emerson Fittipaldi
Jack Brabham
Jackie Stewart

Could I ask what your criteria are? You have some that seem to go against the general trend, certainly. Hakkinen above both Fangio and Clark would be the standout that I'd disagree with, but putting Vettel a whole category above Hamilton is also a bit unorthodox to say the least.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:42 pm 
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Here is a metric that makes the most sense to me. Winning Percentage. Number of races entered/Wins.

1. Juan Manual Fangio - 52 Entries - 24 Wins - WP 46.15%
2. Alberto Ascari - 33 Entries - 13 Wins - WP 39.39%
3. Jim Clark - 73 Entries - 25 Wins - WP 34.25%
4. Lewis Hamilton - 223 Entries - 69 Wins - WP 30.94% *
5. Michael Schumacher - 308 Entries - 91Wins - WP 29.55%
6. Jackie Stewart - 100 Entries - 27 Wins - WP 27.00%
7. Ayrton Senna - 106 Entries - 41 Wins - WP 25.31%
8. Alain Prost - 202 Entries - 51 Wins - WP 25.25%
9. Sebastian Vettel - 215 Entries - 52Wins - WP 24.19% *
10. Niki Lauda - 177 Entries - 25 Wins - WP 14.12%
11. Mika Häkkinen - 165 Entries - 20 Wins - WP 12.12%
12. Nelson Piquet - 207 Entries - 23 Wins - WP 11.11%
13. Jack Brabham - 128 Entries - 14 Wins - WP 10.94%
14. Fernando Alonso - 309 Entries - 32 Wins - WP 10.36% *
15. Emerson Fittipaldi - 149 Entries - 14 Wins - WP 09.40%
16. Graham Hill - 179 Entries - 14 Wins - WP 07.82%

* Current driver whose career is not yet finished.

It's not a perfect yardstick but does equalize for length of career. It also shows how dominant each champion was during their racing days.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:37 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
1:
Michael Schumacher

2:
Alain Prost
Aryton Senna
Sebastian Vettel

3:
Niki Lauda
Lewis Hamilton
Nelson Piquet

4:
Mika Häkkinen
Fernando Alonso

Emeritus:

Jim Clark
Juan Manuel Fangio
Alberto Ascari
Graham Hill
Emerson Fittipaldi
Jack Brabham
Jackie Stewart

Could I ask what your criteria are? You have some that seem to go against the general trend, certainly. Hakkinen above both Fangio and Clark would be the standout that I'd disagree with, but putting Vettel a whole category above Hamilton is also a bit unorthodox to say the least.

I was willing to give Vettel the benefit of the doubt after 2014 season, but he has soiled the bed in 2017 and 2018 so much so that he is now not even in my top 10 despite his 4 championships. He especially will not be able to live down 2018 given the car Ferrari produced. He really needed to at least take it down to the last race. And it won’t get easier next year too because if he doesn’t absolutely beat Leclerc he might find himself replaced with nowhere to go in the top 3 teams.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:42 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Here is a metric that makes the most sense to me. Winning Percentage. Number of races entered/Wins.

1. Juan Manual Fangio - 52 Entries - 24 Wins - WP 46.15%
2. Alberto Ascari - 33 Entries - 13 Wins - WP 39.39%
3. Jim Clark - 73 Entries - 25 Wins - WP 34.25%
4. Lewis Hamilton - 223 Entries - 69 Wins - WP 30.94% *
5. Michael Schumacher - 308 Entries - 91Wins - WP 29.55%
6. Jackie Stewart - 100 Entries - 27 Wins - WP 27.00%
7. Ayrton Senna - 106 Entries - 41 Wins - WP 25.31%
8. Alain Prost - 202 Entries - 51 Wins - WP 25.25%
9. Sebastian Vettel - 215 Entries - 52Wins - WP 24.19% *
10. Niki Lauda - 177 Entries - 25 Wins - WP 14.12%
11. Mika Häkkinen - 165 Entries - 20 Wins - WP 12.12%
12. Nelson Piquet - 207 Entries - 23 Wins - WP 11.11%
13. Jack Brabham - 128 Entries - 14 Wins - WP 10.94%
14. Fernando Alonso - 309 Entries - 32 Wins - WP 10.36% *
15. Emerson Fittipaldi - 149 Entries - 14 Wins - WP 09.40%
16. Graham Hill - 179 Entries - 14 Wins - WP 07.82%

* Current driver whose career is not yet finished.

It's not a perfect yardstick but does equalize for length of career. It also shows how dominant each champion was during their racing days.


Way too relient on machinery though. For example Alonso has won about 5% of races 2007-2018.

For fun I worked out career wins per WDC for selected WDC’s


Schumacher: 13
Fangio: 4.8
Hamilton (using 5 WDC): 14.2
Vettel: 12.75
Prost: 12.75
Senna: 13.67

Alonso: 16


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:25 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Here is a metric that makes the most sense to me. Winning Percentage. Number of races entered/Wins.

1. Juan Manual Fangio - 52 Entries - 24 Wins - WP 46.15%
2. Alberto Ascari - 33 Entries - 13 Wins - WP 39.39%
3. Jim Clark - 73 Entries - 25 Wins - WP 34.25%
4. Lewis Hamilton - 223 Entries - 69 Wins - WP 30.94% *
5. Michael Schumacher - 308 Entries - 91Wins - WP 29.55%
6. Jackie Stewart - 100 Entries - 27 Wins - WP 27.00%
7. Ayrton Senna - 106 Entries - 41 Wins - WP 25.31%
8. Alain Prost - 202 Entries - 51 Wins - WP 25.25%
9. Sebastian Vettel - 215 Entries - 52Wins - WP 24.19% *
10. Niki Lauda - 177 Entries - 25 Wins - WP 14.12%
11. Mika Häkkinen - 165 Entries - 20 Wins - WP 12.12%
12. Nelson Piquet - 207 Entries - 23 Wins - WP 11.11%
13. Jack Brabham - 128 Entries - 14 Wins - WP 10.94%
14. Fernando Alonso - 309 Entries - 32 Wins - WP 10.36% *
15. Emerson Fittipaldi - 149 Entries - 14 Wins - WP 09.40%
16. Graham Hill - 179 Entries - 14 Wins - WP 07.82%

* Current driver whose career is not yet finished.

It's not a perfect yardstick but does equalize for length of career. It also shows how dominant each champion was during their racing days.


Way too relient on machinery though. For example Alonso has won about 5% of races 2007-2018.

For fun I worked out career wins per WDC for selected WDC’s


Schumacher: 13
Fangio: 4.8
Hamilton (using 5 WDC): 14.2
Vettel: 12.75
Prost: 12.75
Senna: 13.67

Alonso: 16


Interesting approach. However current drivers have a lot more races per year (and per championship) than Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Brabham, & Hill....

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:50 am 
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Exediron wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
1:
Michael Schumacher

2:
Alain Prost
Aryton Senna
Sebastian Vettel

3:
Niki Lauda
Lewis Hamilton
Nelson Piquet

4:
Mika Häkkinen
Fernando Alonso

Emeritus:

Jim Clark
Juan Manuel Fangio
Alberto Ascari
Graham Hill
Emerson Fittipaldi
Jack Brabham
Jackie Stewart

Could I ask what your criteria are? You have some that seem to go against the general trend, certainly. Hakkinen above both Fangio and Clark would be the standout that I'd disagree with, but putting Vettel a whole category above Hamilton is also a bit unorthodox to say the least.

Bourbon is a Vettel fan I believe?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:29 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Could I ask what your criteria are? You have some that seem to go against the general trend, certainly. Hakkinen above both Fangio and Clark would be the standout that I'd disagree with, but putting Vettel a whole category above Hamilton is also a bit unorthodox to say the least.

Bourbon is a Vettel fan I believe?

Sure, and I'm an Alonso fan. I still wouldn't put him a whole category above Hamilton. There's being a fan, and then there's being just plain unreasonable.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:42 am 
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Deleted... not worth it.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:57 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Could I ask what your criteria are? You have some that seem to go against the general trend, certainly. Hakkinen above both Fangio and Clark would be the standout that I'd disagree with, but putting Vettel a whole category above Hamilton is also a bit unorthodox to say the least.

Bourbon is a Vettel fan I believe?

Sure, and I'm an Alonso fan. I still wouldn't put him a whole category above Hamilton. There's being a fan, and then there's being just plain unreasonable.

Well I was just putting you in the picture.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:53 pm 
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James Allison has weighed in and said he thinks Hamilton would beat Alonso, Schumacher and Vettel more often than not.

Appreciate that given they currently work for the same team you could argue that it is in his interest to praise Hamilton, but at the same time we are talking about some of the best, and think you could just as easily argue if he felt differently then it wouldn’t be unreasonable to at least put them equal without jeopardizing any relationships or demotivating anyone. I certainly don’t see how he could have done much more against the current generation. Hopefully we can look forward to future tussles with Verstappen and the other emerging talent to help cement his legacy. Do think we should wait until the current driver’s careers are over for a complete picture.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/46131677


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:21 pm 
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WHoff78 wrote:
James Allison has weighed in and said he thinks Hamilton would beat Alonso, Schumacher and Vettel more often than not.

Appreciate that given they currently work for the same team you could argue that it is in his interest to praise Hamilton, but at the same time we are talking about some of the best, and think you could just as easily argue if he felt differently then it wouldn’t be unreasonable to at least put them equal without jeopardizing any relationships or demotivating anyone. I certainly don’t see how he could have done much more against the current generation. Hopefully we can look forward to future tussles with Verstappen and the other emerging talent to help cement his legacy. Do think we should wait until the current driver’s careers are over for a complete picture.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/46131677

There's 12 years between Verstappen and Hamilton, would they be seen as being in the same generation, for example there is 14 years between Schumacher and Prost and I guess they would be seen as being in different generations?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:05 pm 
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Not sure it matters either way but the point is that Verstappen is clearly very quick and will be around for a long time, so will get compared to the current crop as well as future drivers who aren’t even yet on the radar. If there are competitive seasons between Max and Hamilton/Vettel in the future then it should shed a little more light on the competitive order.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:27 am 
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Who is the best none multiple champion of the modern era and all F1 history?

Modern era (1984 onwards - split F1 history in half) champions would be - Rosberg, Raikkonen, Button, JV, Hill and Mansell.

Pre 84 - Rosberg, Andretti, Hunt, Jones... plus others.

For me it is Mansell for both.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:24 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Who is the best none multiple champion of the modern era and all F1 history?

Modern era (1984 onwards - split F1 history in half) champions would be - Rosberg, Raikkonen, Button, JV, Hill and Mansell.

Pre 84 - Rosberg, Andretti, Hunt, Jones... plus others.

For me it is Mansell for both.

First we draw a line and say that 1984 defines the "modern era" and then say that Mansell was the best one time WDC for both eras? How is that? How can Mansell be a one time WDC in two different eras without being a multiple champion?
;)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:55 am 
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Blake wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Who is the best none multiple champion of the modern era and all F1 history?

Modern era (1984 onwards - split F1 history in half) champions would be - Rosberg, Raikkonen, Button, JV, Hill and Mansell.

Pre 84 - Rosberg, Andretti, Hunt, Jones... plus others.

For me it is Mansell for both.

First we draw a line and say that 1984 defines the "modern era" and then say that Mansell was the best one time WDC for both eras? How is that? How can Mansell be a one time WDC in two different eras without being a multiple champion?
;)


Without trying to speak for him/her/whatever else, I think can understand what Johnson means. Johnson has asked 2 questions.

1. Who is the best non multiple champ of the modern era (84- onwards)?
2. Who is the best non multiple champ of all time?

It's perfectly understandable that Mansell, or anyone else post 84 for that matter, could fill both categories.

Pre 84 single year champs would only get a look in if they were considered the best single year champ of all time.

For me i'd go Mansell post 84.

All time? Tough one & it'd only be an educated guess. Maybe Andretti?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:12 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Who is the best none multiple champion of the modern era and all F1 history?

Modern era (1984 onwards - split F1 history in half) champions would be - Rosberg, Raikkonen, Button, JV, Hill and Mansell.

Pre 84 - Rosberg, Andretti, Hunt, Jones... plus others.

For me it is Mansell for both.


Surtees pre 1984. Mansell post 1984.

Surtees the greatest of all.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:21 am 
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Unpopular opinion, perhaps, but I think Mansell is hugely overrated.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:23 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Unpopular opinion, perhaps, but I think Mansell is hugely overrated.


Depends how you rate him I guess but he raced in a very strong era and was generally able to hold his own. No match for Prost over a season but extremely few would be.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:21 am 
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I think these rating the multiple WDC needs to look a what they did in their different eras.

Schumacher stands heads and shoulders above everyone else.

In every sport one individual comes along and the sport becomes synonymous with is name, just like Tiger woods with golf or Phelps with swimming.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Who is the best none multiple champion of the modern era and all F1 history?

Modern era (1984 onwards - split F1 history in half) champions would be - Rosberg, Raikkonen, Button, JV, Hill and Mansell.

Pre 84 - Rosberg, Andretti, Hunt, Jones... plus others.

For me it is Mansell for both.

First we draw a line and say that 1984 defines the "modern era" and then say that Mansell was the best one time WDC for both eras? How is that? How can Mansell be a one time WDC in two different eras without being a multiple champion?
;)


Yes, modern and all. I drew the line through the middle 34 years each because basically nobody has an excellent knowledge of 50/60/70’s races anymore and you can’t re-watch the races and the coverage back then was terrible anyway.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:52 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Unpopular opinion, perhaps, but I think Mansell is hugely overrated.


Depends how you rate him I guess but he raced in a very strong era and was generally able to hold his own. No match for Prost over a season but extremely few would be.


I think this would have been a close fight if the FIA rules on cars weights came in earlier. It wasn’t until 1995 car and driver were weighed. 1990 they just weighed the car.

Mansell was 15kg heavier than Prost. He spent the entire season carrying with the equivalent of a small-medium sized dog in his car in comparison to Prost. Mansell still out performed Prost on 3-4 occasions too. Prosts advantage was 0.4-0.6 per lap which incredible that it took until 1995 to change this rule.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4a/20/8e ... a82cbf.jpg


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:59 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Unpopular opinion, perhaps, but I think Mansell is hugely overrated.


Depends how you rate him I guess but he raced in a very strong era and was generally able to hold his own. No match for Prost over a season but extremely few would be.


I think this would have been a close fight if the FIA rules on cars weights came in earlier. It wasn’t until 1995 car and driver were weighed. 1990 they just weighed the car.

Mansell was 15kg heavier than Prost. He spent the entire season carrying with the equivalent of a small-medium sized dog in his car in comparison to Prost. Mansell still out performed Prost on 3-4 occasions too. Prosts advantage was 0.4-0.6 per lap which incredible that it took until 1995 to change this rule.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4a/20/8e ... a82cbf.jpg

Indeed although I guess it's something you have to largely overlook otherwise it throws some shade on who exactly was good pre 1995?

Like you say Prost in particular had quite a big advantage over most drivers because of his weight but there's no way of really being able to make an adjustment for his weight.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:27 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Who is the best none multiple champion of the modern era and all F1 history?

Modern era (1984 onwards - split F1 history in half) champions would be - Rosberg, Raikkonen, Button, JV, Hill and Mansell.

Pre 84 - Rosberg, Andretti, Hunt, Jones... plus others.

For me it is Mansell for both.


"modern": N. Rosberg
"old": Andretti or Rindt
all: Andretti/Rindt


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:35 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Who is the best none multiple champion of the modern era and all F1 history?

Modern era (1984 onwards - split F1 history in half) champions would be - Rosberg, Raikkonen, Button, JV, Hill and Mansell.

Pre 84 - Rosberg, Andretti, Hunt, Jones... plus others.

For me it is Mansell for both.


"modern": N. Rosberg
"old": Andretti or Rindt
all: Andretti/Rindt

For a change, Paolo, I have to agree with your choices...especially Andretti.
;)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:50 pm 
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I think I'd have Button over Rosberg. Better in the wet and on a Sunday generally but weaker in quali.

Maybe if the car was in a tight group with like 4 others I'd prefer Nico as he'd be making a bigger impact with his one lap speed and track position being more important but in "normal" situations I think I'd prefer JB.

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