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How will Vettel/Leclerc Compare
Vettel will win by a mile 20%  20%  [ 16 ]
Vettel will win but it will be close 48%  48%  [ 39 ]
Leclerc will win but it will be close 28%  28%  [ 23 ]
Leclerc will win by a mile 4%  4%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 81
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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:04 pm 
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Not much Vettel vs Leclerc talk going on in here right now. Now I appreciate that this is an old topic that has been bumped, but there is already a warning in here about veering off topic.

I trust you will all swerve it back on track ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:24 am 
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Mod Yellow wrote:
Not much Vettel vs Leclerc talk going on in here right now. Now I appreciate that this is an old topic that has been bumped, but there is already a warning in here about veering off topic.

I trust you will all swerve it back on track ;)


Trust bringing Hamilton into a Vettel conversation to get it derailed!

I think it is somewhat relevant when assessing how good Vettel was/is. We don't have much about Leclerc just yet, so Vettel's relative performance is what we can comment on.

So far it hasn't descended in name calling or anything nasty, so please do not lock it.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:46 am 
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So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:03 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

I'd be interested to see the full list. I think it would be heavily skewed in favour of the Mercedes and Ferrari drivers since they hold back until the final runs whereas others don't have that luxury.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:09 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

I think that sounds a bit confused, driving consistently at your maximum isn't the same as getting the most out of the car, you can be very consistent but also quite slow, although I wouldn't be labeling Vettel as being that, however you are getting the most out of yourself.

In respect to Leclerc is that really fair, he's driving a Sauber and battling quite hard to get into Q3 probably using two sets of new tyres in Q2 in order to try and achieve that?

This then leaves him just the one new set of tyres in Q3 to nail every sector better than the two attempts he had in Q2, whereas Vettel is able to cruise through Q2 on one set of new tyres giving him two new sets for Q3 were he is going to be pushing much harder.

However fair do to Vettel in his ability to nail one perfect lap for himself out of the two laps.

_________________
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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Last edited by pokerman on Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:10 pm 
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Posts: 30701
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

I'd be interested to see the full list. I think it would be heavily skewed in favour of the Mercedes and Ferrari drivers since they hold back until the final runs whereas others don't have that luxury.

Yeah I have said similar in respect to the midfield drivers.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:48 pm 
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Posts: 25083
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

I'd be interested to see the full list. I think it would be heavily skewed in favour of the Mercedes and Ferrari drivers since they hold back until the final runs whereas others don't have that luxury.

I would, too! :nod:

But OTOH if Vettel was the best with 11 out of 21 and managed 3 more than the next best, that still means even the front runners aren't getting perfect runs the majority of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:55 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

I think that sounds a bit confused, driving consistently at your maximum isn't the same as getting the most out of the car, you can be very consistent but also quite slow, although I wouldn't be labeling Vettel as being that, however you are getting the most out of yourself.

In respect to Leclerc is that really fair, he's driving a Sauber and battling quite hard to get into Q3 probably using two sets of new tyres in Q2 in order to try and achieve that?

This then leaves him just the one new set of tyres in Q3 to nail every sector better than the two attempts he had in Q2, whereas Vettel is able to cruise through Q2 on one set of new tyres giving him two new sets for Q3 were he is going to be pushing much harder.

However fair do to Vettel in his ability to nail one perfect lap for himself out of the two laps.

I meant consistent in terms of getting the best out of the car in qualifying. If you read the article it's talking about fastest sectors for each car, not just driver. So it takes both into account. You can only really judge how fast a car is by the evidence, to be fair. So it's not just about getting the best out of yourself. Of course, it doesn't mean another driver couldn't possibly get more but there isn't any evidence that time's been left on the table. Whereas here there is

Everybody gets an extra set in Q3, don't forget, so they're all in the same boat there. Their final runs will all be on fresh rubber and they don't have to worry about whether it can take the punishment as they hand it back after. From that perspective it's a pretty level playing field


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:05 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:


Based on this article, it can be said Vettel was the best qualifier on the grid.

I suspect this is not going to go down well with some folks.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:45 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

I'd be interested to see the full list. I think it would be heavily skewed in favour of the Mercedes and Ferrari drivers since they hold back until the final runs whereas others don't have that luxury.

I would, too! :nod:

But OTOH if Vettel was the best with 11 out of 21 and managed 3 more than the next best, that still means even the front runners aren't getting perfect runs the majority of the time.

Yeah Vettel is clearly one of the best at getting his best lap when it matters, not that anyone will really find that surprising tbh given his experience and credentials. I'd be pretty shocked if Hamilton wasn't second on the list.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:02 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

Combining your three best sectors doesn't equate to getting the most out of the car at all. With these tires you often have to hold back during part of your Q3 lap otherwise face a loss of grip before the lap is over (Singapore comes to mind). The article overreaches pretty dramatically. I'm not sure how Vettel could possibly be considered the best qualifier of 2018 when he frequently failed to get pole despite having the quickest car on the day. In races like Spa, Monza and Hungary Vettel bottled it when it mattered most in Q3.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:38 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

Combining your three best sectors doesn't equate to getting the most out of the car at all. With these tires you often have to hold back during part of your Q3 lap otherwise face a loss of grip before the lap is over (Singapore comes to mind). The article overreaches pretty dramatically. I'm not sure how Vettel could possibly be considered the best qualifier of 2018 when he frequently failed to get pole despite having the quickest car on the day. In races like Spa, Monza and Hungary Vettel bottled it when it mattered most in Q3.

It does not say such a thing if you read it. Just that he combined his best sectors more often than the others.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:53 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

Combining your three best sectors doesn't equate to getting the most out of the car at all. With these tires you often have to hold back during part of your Q3 lap otherwise face a loss of grip before the lap is over (Singapore comes to mind). The article overreaches pretty dramatically. I'm not sure how Vettel could possibly be considered the best qualifier of 2018 when he frequently failed to get pole despite having the quickest car on the day. In races like Spa, Monza and Hungary Vettel bottled it when it mattered most in Q3.


Actually it does atleast what is humanly possible, it shows consistency and also when you start from the point Vettel is not a slow driver 3rd overall all time pole sitter, putting two fast laps together under pressure, your favourite couldn't do it from the article.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:13 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

I think that sounds a bit confused, driving consistently at your maximum isn't the same as getting the most out of the car, you can be very consistent but also quite slow, although I wouldn't be labeling Vettel as being that, however you are getting the most out of yourself.

In respect to Leclerc is that really fair, he's driving a Sauber and battling quite hard to get into Q3 probably using two sets of new tyres in Q2 in order to try and achieve that?

This then leaves him just the one new set of tyres in Q3 to nail every sector better than the two attempts he had in Q2, whereas Vettel is able to cruise through Q2 on one set of new tyres giving him two new sets for Q3 were he is going to be pushing much harder.

However fair do to Vettel in his ability to nail one perfect lap for himself out of the two laps.

I meant consistent in terms of getting the best out of the car in qualifying. If you read the article it's talking about fastest sectors for each car, not just driver. So it takes both into account. You can only really judge how fast a car is by the evidence, to be fair. So it's not just about getting the best out of yourself. Of course, it doesn't mean another driver couldn't possibly get more but there isn't any evidence that time's been left on the table. Whereas here there is

Everybody gets an extra set in Q3, don't forget, so they're all in the same boat there. Their final runs will all be on fresh rubber and they don't have to worry about whether it can take the punishment as they hand it back after. From that perspective it's a pretty level playing field

No the midfield drivers have used all 3 sets by the time they get to Q3 and then only have the extra set left so comparison with Leclerc is somewhat unfair.

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2013: 5th Place
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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:14 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

Combining your three best sectors doesn't equate to getting the most out of the car at all. With these tires you often have to hold back during part of your Q3 lap otherwise face a loss of grip before the lap is over (Singapore comes to mind). The article overreaches pretty dramatically. I'm not sure how Vettel could possibly be considered the best qualifier of 2018 when he frequently failed to get pole despite having the quickest car on the day. In races like Spa, Monza and Hungary Vettel bottled it when it mattered most in Q3.

I disagree. I think Singapore was more the exception than the rule and generally speaking the fastest sectors do add up to the best time possible for the car. There's certainly been a lot of debate on these forums where it's regularly pointed out that Driver X left time on the table because he didn't get his best sector time on any given lap, so I don't know why that should suddenly be invalid.

I'm inclined to believe that a publication like Motorsport.com would know a thing or two about stuff like this so I don't see a reason to question the concept. It doesn't necessarily mean that Vettel is the best qualifier as we don't know whether another driver could have done even better (as I already pointed out above), but it does suggest that he's at least doing the very best that he could do and not leaving any obvious time on the table. Whereas Leclerc shows that he still has the potential to improve and will likely have to do so if he wants to beat Vettel


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

I think that sounds a bit confused, driving consistently at your maximum isn't the same as getting the most out of the car, you can be very consistent but also quite slow, although I wouldn't be labeling Vettel as being that, however you are getting the most out of yourself.

In respect to Leclerc is that really fair, he's driving a Sauber and battling quite hard to get into Q3 probably using two sets of new tyres in Q2 in order to try and achieve that?

This then leaves him just the one new set of tyres in Q3 to nail every sector better than the two attempts he had in Q2, whereas Vettel is able to cruise through Q2 on one set of new tyres giving him two new sets for Q3 were he is going to be pushing much harder.

However fair do to Vettel in his ability to nail one perfect lap for himself out of the two laps.

I meant consistent in terms of getting the best out of the car in qualifying. If you read the article it's talking about fastest sectors for each car, not just driver. So it takes both into account. You can only really judge how fast a car is by the evidence, to be fair. So it's not just about getting the best out of yourself. Of course, it doesn't mean another driver couldn't possibly get more but there isn't any evidence that time's been left on the table. Whereas here there is

Everybody gets an extra set in Q3, don't forget, so they're all in the same boat there. Their final runs will all be on fresh rubber and they don't have to worry about whether it can take the punishment as they hand it back after. From that perspective it's a pretty level playing field

No the midfield drivers have used all 3 sets by the time they get to Q3 and then only have the extra set left so comparison with Leclerc is somewhat unfair.

That extra set is the one drivers set their best laps on, usually, so I don't really see what's unfair about it


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:20 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

Combining your three best sectors doesn't equate to getting the most out of the car at all. With these tires you often have to hold back during part of your Q3 lap otherwise face a loss of grip before the lap is over (Singapore comes to mind). The article overreaches pretty dramatically. I'm not sure how Vettel could possibly be considered the best qualifier of 2018 when he frequently failed to get pole despite having the quickest car on the day. In races like Spa, Monza and Hungary Vettel bottled it when it mattered most in Q3.

Yes there are plenty of holes like experimenting with going hard in sector one or going more gently in sector one after finding out the tyres were going off, another hole is having a very poor lap then the good lap has all the best sectors as opposed to a driver that's had two good laps but not all the best sectors in one lap so the driver didn't maximise any lap although two close laps might suggest he was very close to it as opposed to a driver who could only manage one good lap after totally messing up the other one.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:23 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

Combining your three best sectors doesn't equate to getting the most out of the car at all. With these tires you often have to hold back during part of your Q3 lap otherwise face a loss of grip before the lap is over (Singapore comes to mind). The article overreaches pretty dramatically. I'm not sure how Vettel could possibly be considered the best qualifier of 2018 when he frequently failed to get pole despite having the quickest car on the day. In races like Spa, Monza and Hungary Vettel bottled it when it mattered most in Q3.

It does not say such a thing if you read it. Just that he combined his best sectors more often than the others.

Yes indeed that's what it says which immediately got translated that Vettel gets more out of the car than other divers hence the replies.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

Combining your three best sectors doesn't equate to getting the most out of the car at all. With these tires you often have to hold back during part of your Q3 lap otherwise face a loss of grip before the lap is over (Singapore comes to mind). The article overreaches pretty dramatically. I'm not sure how Vettel could possibly be considered the best qualifier of 2018 when he frequently failed to get pole despite having the quickest car on the day. In races like Spa, Monza and Hungary Vettel bottled it when it mattered most in Q3.

It does not say such a thing if you read it. Just that he combined his best sectors more often than the others.

Yes indeed that's what it says which immediately got translated that Vettel gets more out of the car than other divers hence the replies.


Well no, it is really simple. He gets his personal best times stiched together in one lap more often than not. It does not mean that these times were better than Hamilton's for example, just that he is the driver that puts all his "purples" in the same lap. Why would people translate this that he is the best qualifier is a bit of a mystery.

A bit of unnecessary statistic to be honest.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:16 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

Combining your three best sectors doesn't equate to getting the most out of the car at all. With these tires you often have to hold back during part of your Q3 lap otherwise face a loss of grip before the lap is over (Singapore comes to mind). The article overreaches pretty dramatically. I'm not sure how Vettel could possibly be considered the best qualifier of 2018 when he frequently failed to get pole despite having the quickest car on the day. In races like Spa, Monza and Hungary Vettel bottled it when it mattered most in Q3.


Actually it does atleast what is humanly possible, it shows consistency and also when you start from the point Vettel is not a slow driver 3rd overall all time pole sitter, putting two fast laps together under pressure, your favourite couldn't do it from the article.

It does not tell you anything about whether or not he got the most out of the car. That's the point I was making. It only says that he got his best sector times on his hot lap 11 times. Getting your own personal best sector times does not mean that you maximized the car's capability.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:37 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

I think that sounds a bit confused, driving consistently at your maximum isn't the same as getting the most out of the car, you can be very consistent but also quite slow, although I wouldn't be labeling Vettel as being that, however you are getting the most out of yourself.

In respect to Leclerc is that really fair, he's driving a Sauber and battling quite hard to get into Q3 probably using two sets of new tyres in Q2 in order to try and achieve that?

This then leaves him just the one new set of tyres in Q3 to nail every sector better than the two attempts he had in Q2, whereas Vettel is able to cruise through Q2 on one set of new tyres giving him two new sets for Q3 were he is going to be pushing much harder.

However fair do to Vettel in his ability to nail one perfect lap for himself out of the two laps.

I meant consistent in terms of getting the best out of the car in qualifying. If you read the article it's talking about fastest sectors for each car, not just driver. So it takes both into account. You can only really judge how fast a car is by the evidence, to be fair. So it's not just about getting the best out of yourself. Of course, it doesn't mean another driver couldn't possibly get more but there isn't any evidence that time's been left on the table. Whereas here there is

Everybody gets an extra set in Q3, don't forget, so they're all in the same boat there. Their final runs will all be on fresh rubber and they don't have to worry about whether it can take the punishment as they hand it back after. From that perspective it's a pretty level playing field

It's talking about Vettel's own personal sectors, I actually don't understand the relevance, it's only comparing Vettel with himself?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:41 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

Combining your three best sectors doesn't equate to getting the most out of the car at all. With these tires you often have to hold back during part of your Q3 lap otherwise face a loss of grip before the lap is over (Singapore comes to mind). The article overreaches pretty dramatically. I'm not sure how Vettel could possibly be considered the best qualifier of 2018 when he frequently failed to get pole despite having the quickest car on the day. In races like Spa, Monza and Hungary Vettel bottled it when it mattered most in Q3.


Actually it does atleast what is humanly possible, it shows consistency and also when you start from the point Vettel is not a slow driver 3rd overall all time pole sitter, putting two fast laps together under pressure, your favourite couldn't do it from the article.

Were does it mention 2 fast laps, if you mess up one lap then it's so much easier to post all 3 fastest sectors in the other lap, it's like it's some new made up thing?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

I think that sounds a bit confused, driving consistently at your maximum isn't the same as getting the most out of the car, you can be very consistent but also quite slow, although I wouldn't be labeling Vettel as being that, however you are getting the most out of yourself.

In respect to Leclerc is that really fair, he's driving a Sauber and battling quite hard to get into Q3 probably using two sets of new tyres in Q2 in order to try and achieve that?

This then leaves him just the one new set of tyres in Q3 to nail every sector better than the two attempts he had in Q2, whereas Vettel is able to cruise through Q2 on one set of new tyres giving him two new sets for Q3 were he is going to be pushing much harder.

However fair do to Vettel in his ability to nail one perfect lap for himself out of the two laps.

I meant consistent in terms of getting the best out of the car in qualifying. If you read the article it's talking about fastest sectors for each car, not just driver. So it takes both into account. You can only really judge how fast a car is by the evidence, to be fair. So it's not just about getting the best out of yourself. Of course, it doesn't mean another driver couldn't possibly get more but there isn't any evidence that time's been left on the table. Whereas here there is

Everybody gets an extra set in Q3, don't forget, so they're all in the same boat there. Their final runs will all be on fresh rubber and they don't have to worry about whether it can take the punishment as they hand it back after. From that perspective it's a pretty level playing field

It's talking about Vettel's own personal sectors, I actually don't understand the relevance, it's only comparing Vettel with himself?

No, it isn't


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:45 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

I think that sounds a bit confused, driving consistently at your maximum isn't the same as getting the most out of the car, you can be very consistent but also quite slow, although I wouldn't be labeling Vettel as being that, however you are getting the most out of yourself.

In respect to Leclerc is that really fair, he's driving a Sauber and battling quite hard to get into Q3 probably using two sets of new tyres in Q2 in order to try and achieve that?

This then leaves him just the one new set of tyres in Q3 to nail every sector better than the two attempts he had in Q2, whereas Vettel is able to cruise through Q2 on one set of new tyres giving him two new sets for Q3 were he is going to be pushing much harder.

However fair do to Vettel in his ability to nail one perfect lap for himself out of the two laps.

I meant consistent in terms of getting the best out of the car in qualifying. If you read the article it's talking about fastest sectors for each car, not just driver. So it takes both into account. You can only really judge how fast a car is by the evidence, to be fair. So it's not just about getting the best out of yourself. Of course, it doesn't mean another driver couldn't possibly get more but there isn't any evidence that time's been left on the table. Whereas here there is

Everybody gets an extra set in Q3, don't forget, so they're all in the same boat there. Their final runs will all be on fresh rubber and they don't have to worry about whether it can take the punishment as they hand it back after. From that perspective it's a pretty level playing field

No the midfield drivers have used all 3 sets by the time they get to Q3 and then only have the extra set left so comparison with Leclerc is somewhat unfair.

That extra set is the one drivers set their best laps on, usually, so I don't really see what's unfair about it

Because his one lap in Q3 is being compared with 2 laps on the limit in Q2, whereas Vettel is just being compared with one other fast lap in Q3 and not the one other in Q2 because there's not the need to be on the limit.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:49 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

Combining your three best sectors doesn't equate to getting the most out of the car at all. With these tires you often have to hold back during part of your Q3 lap otherwise face a loss of grip before the lap is over (Singapore comes to mind). The article overreaches pretty dramatically. I'm not sure how Vettel could possibly be considered the best qualifier of 2018 when he frequently failed to get pole despite having the quickest car on the day. In races like Spa, Monza and Hungary Vettel bottled it when it mattered most in Q3.

It does not say such a thing if you read it. Just that he combined his best sectors more often than the others.

Yes indeed that's what it says which immediately got translated that Vettel gets more out of the car than other divers hence the replies.


Well no, it is really simple. He gets his personal best times stiched together in one lap more often than not. It does not mean that these times were better than Hamilton's for example, just that he is the driver that puts all his "purples" in the same lap. Why would people translate this that he is the best qualifier is a bit of a mystery.

A bit of unnecessary statistic to be honest.

Yes I agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:52 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

I think that sounds a bit confused, driving consistently at your maximum isn't the same as getting the most out of the car, you can be very consistent but also quite slow, although I wouldn't be labeling Vettel as being that, however you are getting the most out of yourself.

In respect to Leclerc is that really fair, he's driving a Sauber and battling quite hard to get into Q3 probably using two sets of new tyres in Q2 in order to try and achieve that?

This then leaves him just the one new set of tyres in Q3 to nail every sector better than the two attempts he had in Q2, whereas Vettel is able to cruise through Q2 on one set of new tyres giving him two new sets for Q3 were he is going to be pushing much harder.

However fair do to Vettel in his ability to nail one perfect lap for himself out of the two laps.

I meant consistent in terms of getting the best out of the car in qualifying. If you read the article it's talking about fastest sectors for each car, not just driver. So it takes both into account. You can only really judge how fast a car is by the evidence, to be fair. So it's not just about getting the best out of yourself. Of course, it doesn't mean another driver couldn't possibly get more but there isn't any evidence that time's been left on the table. Whereas here there is

Everybody gets an extra set in Q3, don't forget, so they're all in the same boat there. Their final runs will all be on fresh rubber and they don't have to worry about whether it can take the punishment as they hand it back after. From that perspective it's a pretty level playing field

It's talking about Vettel's own personal sectors, I actually don't understand the relevance, it's only comparing Vettel with himself?

No, it isn't

It certainly doesn't mean what you said.

Quote:
Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think that sounds a bit confused, driving consistently at your maximum isn't the same as getting the most out of the car, you can be very consistent but also quite slow, although I wouldn't be labeling Vettel as being that, however you are getting the most out of yourself.

In respect to Leclerc is that really fair, he's driving a Sauber and battling quite hard to get into Q3 probably using two sets of new tyres in Q2 in order to try and achieve that?

This then leaves him just the one new set of tyres in Q3 to nail every sector better than the two attempts he had in Q2, whereas Vettel is able to cruise through Q2 on one set of new tyres giving him two new sets for Q3 were he is going to be pushing much harder.

However fair do to Vettel in his ability to nail one perfect lap for himself out of the two laps.

I meant consistent in terms of getting the best out of the car in qualifying. If you read the article it's talking about fastest sectors for each car, not just driver. So it takes both into account. You can only really judge how fast a car is by the evidence, to be fair. So it's not just about getting the best out of yourself. Of course, it doesn't mean another driver couldn't possibly get more but there isn't any evidence that time's been left on the table. Whereas here there is

Everybody gets an extra set in Q3, don't forget, so they're all in the same boat there. Their final runs will all be on fresh rubber and they don't have to worry about whether it can take the punishment as they hand it back after. From that perspective it's a pretty level playing field

It's talking about Vettel's own personal sectors, I actually don't understand the relevance, it's only comparing Vettel with himself?

No, it isn't

It certainly doesn't mean what you said.

Quote:
Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car

yes, fair enough, I don't think I expressed myself properly. I meant to say he was statistically the best at getting the theoretical maximum out of the car. Compare with Leclerc, who currently leaves a lot of time on the table


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think that sounds a bit confused, driving consistently at your maximum isn't the same as getting the most out of the car, you can be very consistent but also quite slow, although I wouldn't be labeling Vettel as being that, however you are getting the most out of yourself.

In respect to Leclerc is that really fair, he's driving a Sauber and battling quite hard to get into Q3 probably using two sets of new tyres in Q2 in order to try and achieve that?

This then leaves him just the one new set of tyres in Q3 to nail every sector better than the two attempts he had in Q2, whereas Vettel is able to cruise through Q2 on one set of new tyres giving him two new sets for Q3 were he is going to be pushing much harder.

However fair do to Vettel in his ability to nail one perfect lap for himself out of the two laps.

I meant consistent in terms of getting the best out of the car in qualifying. If you read the article it's talking about fastest sectors for each car, not just driver. So it takes both into account. You can only really judge how fast a car is by the evidence, to be fair. So it's not just about getting the best out of yourself. Of course, it doesn't mean another driver couldn't possibly get more but there isn't any evidence that time's been left on the table. Whereas here there is

Everybody gets an extra set in Q3, don't forget, so they're all in the same boat there. Their final runs will all be on fresh rubber and they don't have to worry about whether it can take the punishment as they hand it back after. From that perspective it's a pretty level playing field

No the midfield drivers have used all 3 sets by the time they get to Q3 and then only have the extra set left so comparison with Leclerc is somewhat unfair.

That extra set is the one drivers set their best laps on, usually, so I don't really see what's unfair about it

Because his one lap in Q3 is being compared with 2 laps on the limit in Q2, whereas Vettel is just being compared with one other fast lap in Q3 and not the one other in Q2 because there's not the need to be on the limit.

no that's not really true. The comparison was made with all the drivers and Vettel came out best and Leclerc worst. It illustrates that Leclerc still has a fair bit of work to do


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:23 pm 
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Pretty rubbish article.
Leclerc is going to have a chance to prove himself against Seb. So let’s see how that goes before assuming that vettel already proved he is the better qualifier through some meaningless data shall we?
I can’t count how many times vettel admitted that he left time on the table.
Imo Leclerc will struggle to match Seb in the beginning of the season all due to experience but I fully expect Charles to catch up by seasons end and show up Seb in quali eventually. So let’s wait and see how it pans out. Let’s go Charles!


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:37 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Pretty rubbish article.
Leclerc is going to have a chance to prove himself against Seb. So let’s see how that goes before assuming that vettel already proved he is the better qualifier through some meaningless data shall we?
I can’t count how many times vettel admitted that he left time on the table.
Imo Leclerc will struggle to match Seb in the beginning of the season all due to experience but I fully expect Charles to catch up by seasons end and show up Seb in quali eventually. So let’s wait and see how it pans out. Let’s go Charles!

I don't think it's rubbish. I think it makes a valid point - Vettel tends to deliver his best effort (however good that may be) in Q3 when it counts, and that ability to string together his best sectors has been the difference between him and Kimi on many occasions. That's not to say that Vettel is faster than other drivers who don't combine their sectors as often, just that he's more capable of reliably accessing his own potential at the decisive moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:49 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I meant consistent in terms of getting the best out of the car in qualifying. If you read the article it's talking about fastest sectors for each car, not just driver. So it takes both into account. You can only really judge how fast a car is by the evidence, to be fair. So it's not just about getting the best out of yourself. Of course, it doesn't mean another driver couldn't possibly get more but there isn't any evidence that time's been left on the table. Whereas here there is

Everybody gets an extra set in Q3, don't forget, so they're all in the same boat there. Their final runs will all be on fresh rubber and they don't have to worry about whether it can take the punishment as they hand it back after. From that perspective it's a pretty level playing field

It's talking about Vettel's own personal sectors, I actually don't understand the relevance, it's only comparing Vettel with himself?

No, it isn't

It certainly doesn't mean what you said.

Quote:
Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car

yes, fair enough, I don't think I expressed myself properly. I meant to say he was statistically the best at getting the theoretical maximum out of the car. Compare with Leclerc, who currently leaves a lot of time on the table

That's still saying the same thing, all Vettel is doing is stringing his own theoretical best lap together more often than other drivers.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:56 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I meant consistent in terms of getting the best out of the car in qualifying. If you read the article it's talking about fastest sectors for each car, not just driver. So it takes both into account. You can only really judge how fast a car is by the evidence, to be fair. So it's not just about getting the best out of yourself. Of course, it doesn't mean another driver couldn't possibly get more but there isn't any evidence that time's been left on the table. Whereas here there is

Everybody gets an extra set in Q3, don't forget, so they're all in the same boat there. Their final runs will all be on fresh rubber and they don't have to worry about whether it can take the punishment as they hand it back after. From that perspective it's a pretty level playing field

No the midfield drivers have used all 3 sets by the time they get to Q3 and then only have the extra set left so comparison with Leclerc is somewhat unfair.

That extra set is the one drivers set their best laps on, usually, so I don't really see what's unfair about it

Because his one lap in Q3 is being compared with 2 laps on the limit in Q2, whereas Vettel is just being compared with one other fast lap in Q3 and not the one other in Q2 because there's not the need to be on the limit.

no that's not really true. The comparison was made with all the drivers and Vettel came out best and Leclerc worst. It illustrates that Leclerc still has a fair bit of work to do

I'm comparing specifically with Leclerc which the article is about after all and in that respect the comparison is unfair and somewhat bogus, the whole idea that a driver is a better qualifier because he happens to purple his best laps more than other drivers is also somewhat suspect.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's talking about Vettel's own personal sectors, I actually don't understand the relevance, it's only comparing Vettel with himself?

No, it isn't

It certainly doesn't mean what you said.

Quote:
Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car

yes, fair enough, I don't think I expressed myself properly. I meant to say he was statistically the best at getting the theoretical maximum out of the car. Compare with Leclerc, who currently leaves a lot of time on the table

That's still saying the same thing, all Vettel is doing is stringing his own theoretical best lap together more often than other drivers.

*All* he's doing? If he's stringing his best possible lap together more often than anyone else, then he's getting the best he possibly can, surely? Which is the point the article is making


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No the midfield drivers have used all 3 sets by the time they get to Q3 and then only have the extra set left so comparison with Leclerc is somewhat unfair.

That extra set is the one drivers set their best laps on, usually, so I don't really see what's unfair about it

Because his one lap in Q3 is being compared with 2 laps on the limit in Q2, whereas Vettel is just being compared with one other fast lap in Q3 and not the one other in Q2 because there's not the need to be on the limit.

no that's not really true. The comparison was made with all the drivers and Vettel came out best and Leclerc worst. It illustrates that Leclerc still has a fair bit of work to do

I'm comparing specifically with Leclerc which the article is about after all and in that respect the comparison is unfair and somewhat bogus, the whole idea that a driver is a better qualifier because he happens to purple his best laps more than other drivers is also somewhat suspect.

The context is important, though. The fact is that they are going to partner next year and ifVettel is the best at this particular task and Leclerc the worst (which is where the context comes in), then Leclerc needs to raise his game a fair amount in order to be able to take the fight to Vettel. That's all that's being said here.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:20 am 
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Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Pretty rubbish article.
Leclerc is going to have a chance to prove himself against Seb. So let’s see how that goes before assuming that vettel already proved he is the better qualifier through some meaningless data shall we?
I can’t count how many times vettel admitted that he left time on the table.
Imo Leclerc will struggle to match Seb in the beginning of the season all due to experience but I fully expect Charles to catch up by seasons end and show up Seb in quali eventually. So let’s wait and see how it pans out. Let’s go Charles!

I don't think it's rubbish. I think it makes a valid point - Vettel tends to deliver his best effort (however good that may be) in Q3 when it counts, and that ability to string together his best sectors has been the difference between him and Kimi on many occasions. That's not to say that Vettel is faster than other drivers who don't combine their sectors as often, just that he's more capable of reliably accessing his own potential at the decisive moment.



Comparing a Ferrari driver who can pretty much make q3 with the car on cruise control to a Sauber driver that is going flat out from q1 is ridiculous.

All the top guys do in q1 and q2 is trying to get through and they don’t even have the engine settings to the max until sometimes the very last lap in q3. This means that they might not set their true theoretical best lap in q3 if the track had more grip prior to q3. The midfield drivers are obviously pushing all the time and sometimes you can see these guys set a better time in q2 than in q3 or in q1 than in q2. You never see that with the top 4 cars.

And even if Seb manages to often be able to save his best for last, as the article portrays, it won’t help him much if Leclerc is just flat out faster, because Seb just wouldn’t be able to match his best times. So yeah... I think it was a pretty rubbish comparison.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:52 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Pretty rubbish article.
Leclerc is going to have a chance to prove himself against Seb. So let’s see how that goes before assuming that vettel already proved he is the better qualifier through some meaningless data shall we?
I can’t count how many times vettel admitted that he left time on the table.
Imo Leclerc will struggle to match Seb in the beginning of the season all due to experience but I fully expect Charles to catch up by seasons end and show up Seb in quali eventually. So let’s wait and see how it pans out. Let’s go Charles!

I don't think it's rubbish. I think it makes a valid point - Vettel tends to deliver his best effort (however good that may be) in Q3 when it counts, and that ability to string together his best sectors has been the difference between him and Kimi on many occasions. That's not to say that Vettel is faster than other drivers who don't combine their sectors as often, just that he's more capable of reliably accessing his own potential at the decisive moment.



Comparing a Ferrari driver who can pretty much make q3 with the car on cruise control to a Sauber driver that is going flat out from q1 is ridiculous.

All the top guys do in q1 and q2 is trying to get through and they don’t even have the engine settings to the max until sometimes the very last lap in q3. This means that they might not set their true theoretical best lap in q3 if the track had more grip prior to q3. The midfield drivers are obviously pushing all the time and sometimes you can see these guys set a better time in q2 than in q3 or in q1 than in q2. You never see that with the top 4 cars.

And even if Seb manages to often be able to save his best for last, as the article portrays, it won’t help him much if Leclerc is just flat out faster, because Seb just wouldn’t be able to match his best times. So yeah... I think it was a pretty rubbish comparison.

It isn't, really. The point is that Leclerc has the worst record of anyone on the grid and he can't claim to be the only midfield driver, so it's clearly an area where he can improve to be even better than he is. He's clearly quick, but maybe a bit rough around the edges. And now he's up against a team mate who has the best record of all of them, so including his own peers, which means that there's a benchmark for Leclerc to aim for. Bit puzzling why that should be controversial, tbh.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:38 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Pretty rubbish article.
Leclerc is going to have a chance to prove himself against Seb. So let’s see how that goes before assuming that vettel already proved he is the better qualifier through some meaningless data shall we?
I can’t count how many times vettel admitted that he left time on the table.
Imo Leclerc will struggle to match Seb in the beginning of the season all due to experience but I fully expect Charles to catch up by seasons end and show up Seb in quali eventually. So let’s wait and see how it pans out. Let’s go Charles!

I don't think it's rubbish. I think it makes a valid point - Vettel tends to deliver his best effort (however good that may be) in Q3 when it counts, and that ability to string together his best sectors has been the difference between him and Kimi on many occasions. That's not to say that Vettel is faster than other drivers who don't combine their sectors as often, just that he's more capable of reliably accessing his own potential at the decisive moment.



Comparing a Ferrari driver who can pretty much make q3 with the car on cruise control to a Sauber driver that is going flat out from q1 is ridiculous.

All the top guys do in q1 and q2 is trying to get through and they don’t even have the engine settings to the max until sometimes the very last lap in q3. This means that they might not set their true theoretical best lap in q3 if the track had more grip prior to q3. The midfield drivers are obviously pushing all the time and sometimes you can see these guys set a better time in q2 than in q3 or in q1 than in q2. You never see that with the top 4 cars.

And even if Seb manages to often be able to save his best for last, as the article portrays, it won’t help him much if Leclerc is just flat out faster, because Seb just wouldn’t be able to match his best times. So yeah... I think it was a pretty rubbish comparison.

I agree it heavily favours the top guys who can hold back until the final moments of Q3.

However the fact that Leclerc is bottom of the pile, even including drivers who are in a similar position of having to push all qualifying long, and that Vettel is top, even including drivers who can hold back until Q3, does indicate that there is something that could be taken away from this data: Vettel is relentlessly consistent in qualifying, whereas Leclerc hasn't been.

The fact one is a 4 time champion and the other is a rookie makes that hardly surprising, but I wouldn't have guessed that Vettel would be top and Leclerc bottom of everyone on the grid. So it points out just how strong/weak they have been in this area, and the huge challenge Leclerc will face this coming season.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:49 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Pretty rubbish article.
Leclerc is going to have a chance to prove himself against Seb. So let’s see how that goes before assuming that vettel already proved he is the better qualifier through some meaningless data shall we?
I can’t count how many times vettel admitted that he left time on the table.
Imo Leclerc will struggle to match Seb in the beginning of the season all due to experience but I fully expect Charles to catch up by seasons end and show up Seb in quali eventually. So let’s wait and see how it pans out. Let’s go Charles!

I don't think it's rubbish. I think it makes a valid point - Vettel tends to deliver his best effort (however good that may be) in Q3 when it counts, and that ability to string together his best sectors has been the difference between him and Kimi on many occasions. That's not to say that Vettel is faster than other drivers who don't combine their sectors as often, just that he's more capable of reliably accessing his own potential at the decisive moment.



Comparing a Ferrari driver who can pretty much make q3 with the car on cruise control to a Sauber driver that is going flat out from q1 is ridiculous.

All the top guys do in q1 and q2 is trying to get through and they don’t even have the engine settings to the max until sometimes the very last lap in q3. This means that they might not set their true theoretical best lap in q3 if the track had more grip prior to q3. The midfield drivers are obviously pushing all the time and sometimes you can see these guys set a better time in q2 than in q3 or in q1 than in q2. You never see that with the top 4 cars.

And even if Seb manages to often be able to save his best for last, as the article portrays, it won’t help him much if Leclerc is just flat out faster, because Seb just wouldn’t be able to match his best times. So yeah... I think it was a pretty rubbish comparison.

I agree it heavily favours the top guys who can hold back until the final moments of Q3.

However the fact that Leclerc is bottom of the pile, even including drivers who are in a similar position of having to push all qualifying long, and that Vettel is top, even including drivers who can hold back until Q3, does indicate that there is something that could be taken away from this data: Vettel is relentlessly consistent in qualifying, whereas Leclerc hasn't been.

The fact one is a 4 time champion and the other is a rookie makes that hardly surprising, but I wouldn't have guessed that Vettel would be top and Leclerc bottom of everyone on the grid. So it points out just how strong/weak they have been in this area, and the huge challenge Leclerc will face this coming season.

:thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:33 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Exediron wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Pretty rubbish article.
Leclerc is going to have a chance to prove himself against Seb. So let’s see how that goes before assuming that vettel already proved he is the better qualifier through some meaningless data shall we?
I can’t count how many times vettel admitted that he left time on the table.
Imo Leclerc will struggle to match Seb in the beginning of the season all due to experience but I fully expect Charles to catch up by seasons end and show up Seb in quali eventually. So let’s wait and see how it pans out. Let’s go Charles!

I don't think it's rubbish. I think it makes a valid point - Vettel tends to deliver his best effort (however good that may be) in Q3 when it counts, and that ability to string together his best sectors has been the difference between him and Kimi on many occasions. That's not to say that Vettel is faster than other drivers who don't combine their sectors as often, just that he's more capable of reliably accessing his own potential at the decisive moment.





Comparing a Ferrari driver who can pretty much make q3 with the car on cruise control to a Sauber driver that is going flat out from q1 is ridiculous.

All the top guys do in q1 and q2 is trying to get through and they don’t even have the engine settings to the max until sometimes the very last lap in q3. This means that they might not set their true theoretical best lap in q3 if the track had more grip prior to q3. The midfield drivers are obviously pushing all the time and sometimes you can see these guys set a better time in q2 than in q3 or in q1 than in q2. You never see that with the top 4 cars.

And even if Seb manages to often be able to save his best for last, as the article portrays, it won’t help him much if Leclerc is just flat out faster, because Seb just wouldn’t be able to match his best times. So yeah... I think it was a pretty rubbish comparison.

I agree it heavily favours the top guys who can hold back until the final moments of Q3.

However the fact that Leclerc is bottom of the pile, even including drivers who are in a similar position of having to push all qualifying long, and that Vettel is top, even including drivers who can hold back until Q3, does indicate that there is something that could be taken away from this data: Vettel is relentlessly consistent in qualifying, whereas Leclerc hasn't been.

The fact one is a 4 time champion and the other is a rookie makes that hardly surprising, but I wouldn't have guessed that Vettel would be top and Leclerc bottom of everyone on the grid. So it points out just how strong/weak they have been in this area, and the huge challenge Leclerc will face this coming season.


Well said!

The problem arising here is that folks cant bring themselves to accept Vettel strength at qualifying.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:37 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1787
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So interesting article on motorsport.com comparing Leclerc and Vettel in qualifying. In a nutshell, it says that while Leclerc had some excellent qualifying performances and generally qualified higher than one would expect his car to be, it also suggested that he was fairly inconsistent overall. Comparing with Vettel, who apparently had the best qualifying record of anyone as regards getting the very best out of the car - which no doubt will be contentious for some - and Leclerc still has some catching up to do in qualifying at least.

Of course the flipside is that Leclerc still has room for improvement, while Vettel doesn't in theory have much more scope, but it suggests that Leclerc may have his work cut out matching Vettel in qualifying.

However, Leclerc also had the worst record of the entire grid for piecing together his theoretical best lap in qualifying.
On only three occasions did Leclerc combine his three best sectors on the same lap, and he also had the second-biggest average deficit between his actual lap time and his theoretical best, lapping 0.132s slower than he could have.

While this seems like harsh criticism, it is worth noting that Leclerc's 2019 Ferrari teammate Sebastian Vettel led the way for both theoretical-best metrics.

Vettel combined his three best sectors in 11 of 21 qualifying sessions, three more than any other driver. He was also top of the pile for his average deficit, giving away only 0.025s over the campaign.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vettel-qualifying-benchmark-leclerc-respond/4325186/

Discuss :twisted:

Combining your three best sectors doesn't equate to getting the most out of the car at all. With these tires you often have to hold back during part of your Q3 lap otherwise face a loss of grip before the lap is over (Singapore comes to mind). The article overreaches pretty dramatically. I'm not sure how Vettel could possibly be considered the best qualifier of 2018 when he frequently failed to get pole despite having the quickest car on the day. In races like Spa, Monza and Hungary Vettel bottled it when it mattered most in Q3.


Actually it does atleast what is humanly possible, it shows consistency and also when you start from the point Vettel is not a slow driver 3rd overall all time pole sitter, putting two fast laps together under pressure, your favourite couldn't do it from the article.

Were does it mention 2 fast laps, if you mess up one lap then it's so much easier to post all 3 fastest sectors in the other lap, it's like it's some new made up thing?


if someone puts their best sectors together you do understand, it is not from one lap you make a comparison right?


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