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How will Vettel/Leclerc Compare
Vettel will win by a mile 20%  20%  [ 18 ]
Vettel will win but it will be close 48%  48%  [ 44 ]
Leclerc will win but it will be close 29%  29%  [ 27 ]
Leclerc will win by a mile 3%  3%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 92
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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:22 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.


Not much of a measure. Giovinazzi could be a world class qualifier for all we know.


Could be true for all we know but it does seem ludicrous on the face of it. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:41 am 
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Lewis says, "I’m always just looking to improve and I really love being in this sport.” Peter Windsor agrees with him. He says he continually sees Lewis trying new things and finding new ways to be fast. Windsor it's a host of very small elements to Lewis driving that make the difference between Lewis and drivers like Valtteri. Things like moving your line through a turn by an inch or two each lap as your fuel load gets lighter.

I suspect that we will continue to see Lewis elevate his race craft for quite a while yet. I also have no doubt that he will occasionally put on qualifying performances that absolutely stagger everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:21 am 
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I guess there just wasn't enough Lewis Hamilton in the Vettel vs Leclerc thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:23 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.


Not much of a measure. Giovinazzi could be a world class qualifier for all we know.

I could have used more examples of Kimi not being a top class qualifier.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:36 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.

I think it's entirely possible that Hamilton has finally reached the stage in his career where his outright single lap pace is just beginning to diminish. That might be a premature statement and it might just be that this was a slightly down year for him in qualifying but Valteri was generally more competitive on Saturdays this year than he has been in the past and, if I recall correctly, 2003 was about the time I first started to feel like Michael might be on the down-swing too (he was also 34 that year). I'd say 2018 was Hamilton at the peak of his powers and, IMO, he hasn't quite matched that level overall this year.

Oddly, somehow 33 seems to be the age that a lot of the legendary drivers reached their absolute peak. Was Michael ever better than 2002? Was Senna ever better than 1993?

Senna poled every race he took part in the following season in a slower car than what Schumacher had, qualifying is not lineal, there can be ebbs and flows, I think it's just not been a strong year for Hamilton and we're merely talking about him being down about 0.04s, that's how finite it can be and the kind of difference it can make.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:37 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.


They were not his fault though. Without team orders, vettel lost a win with a DNF in Russia and a likely 5th place at the last race with a DNF. Leclerc has had 2 DNFs with himself totally to blame.

Vettel was behind Leclerc in Russia.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:40 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

In respect to Austin, Hamilton had a brake issue on his first run in Q3, the second run was slower for all drivers.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:41 pm 
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Liket wrote:
I guess there just wasn't enough Lewis Hamilton in the Vettel vs Leclerc thread.

Good point.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:07 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

But the suspension failure "could" be why Seb didn't have a brilliant qualifying session. It could be that something was slightly off during qualy which hindered his ability to challenge for pole.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:29 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

In respect to Austin, Hamilton had a brake issue on his first run in Q3, the second run was slower for all drivers.

Wasn't this covered elsewhere that the breaking wasn't what cost him time but corner exits, besides the only report I've read about the brake issue mentions that it affected only the second run.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:12 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

In respect to Austin, Hamilton had a brake issue on his first run in Q3, the second run was slower for all drivers.

Wasn't this covered elsewhere that the breaking wasn't what cost him time but corner exits, besides the only report I've read about the brake issue mentions that it affected only the second run.

From the horses mouth so to speak, it's actually the engine braking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzwyFgTNarc

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:21 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

In respect to Austin, Hamilton had a brake issue on his first run in Q3, the second run was slower for all drivers.

Wasn't this covered elsewhere that the breaking wasn't what cost him time but corner exits, besides the only report I've read about the brake issue mentions that it affected only the second run.

From the horses mouth so to speak, it's actually the engine braking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzwyFgTNarc

Ok thanks, so it seems it was costing time towards the end of the lap. Combined with his poor corner exits it would probably explain the deficit.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:02 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

But the suspension failure "could" be why Seb didn't have a brilliant qualifying session. It could be that something was slightly off during qualy which hindered his ability to challenge for pole.


No that is impossible, its Vettel that is being discussed here.

People will always find fault, cue sky trying to say he ran over the sausage kerb introduced when you could see the suspension giving way before the corner.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:13 pm 
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Can you have progressive suspension failure? Its not as though the bushes have worm out over time is it. Its either a broken arm or its not surely!


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:49 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

But the suspension failure "could" be why Seb didn't have a brilliant qualifying session. It could be that something was slightly off during qualy which hindered his ability to challenge for pole.


No that is impossible, its Vettel that is being discussed here.

People will always find fault, cue sky trying to say he ran over the sausage kerb introduced when you could see the suspension giving way before the corner.

I'm not sure why my post is quoted here. I didn't actually say anything about Vettel or his suspension failure or qualifying performance.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:29 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Can you have progressive suspension failure? Its not as though the bushes have worm out over time is it. Its either a broken arm or its not surely!

The image I saw on the broadcast looked like the lower wishbone arm failed - as in the arm itself, not where it joins to the car. I'm no expert but it may be possible the carbon weave can weaken over time before the catastrophic failure?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:01 am 
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jono794 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Can you have progressive suspension failure? Its not as though the bushes have worm out over time is it. Its either a broken arm or its not surely!

The image I saw on the broadcast looked like the lower wishbone arm failed - as in the arm itself, not where it joins to the car. I'm no expert but it may be possible the carbon weave can weaken over time before the catastrophic failure?


I appreciate that, its just that its still working even if weakened isn't it, if it is intact then the distances are the same so the geometry of the suspension still works. I'd have though Vettel's poor start was more down to not working than suspension issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:25 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Nah, Hamilton is still blindingly fast over a single lap as well as complete race distances. Hasn't lost a step. the Mercedes this year seems to be difficult to set up just how he prefers on most weekends and he's still managed to snatch pole from the clutches of the Ferraris as well as race wins. You have to keep in mind that with the tires being as cruddy as they are, what he did in Mexico and almost pulled off at COTA is thought to be damn near impossible. He made the tires last incredible distances while still pushing close to the limit.

Mexico and COTA were both brilliant and he is very much still at his peak on race day. I think that COTA was a poor qualifying performance though and if you compare 2019 to his previous several years, it is decidedly less impressive from the standpoint of qualifying alone. Like I said, it might just be a slightly down year. I never suggested he lost a step. If anything maybe just a half step and only in qualifying. If he has then at this stage, he is more than able to make up for it with his added experience and savvy.

But the suspension failure "could" be why Seb didn't have a brilliant qualifying session. It could be that something was slightly off during qualy which hindered his ability to challenge for pole.


No that is impossible, its Vettel that is being discussed here.

People will always find fault, cue sky trying to say he ran over the sausage kerb introduced when you could see the suspension giving way before the corner.

In regards to qualifying he out qualified his teammate so why would anyone look to criticise his qualifying plus I don't believe anyone actually did anyway?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:33 pm 
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I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:07 pm 
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SlipstreamF1 wrote:
I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.



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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:27 pm 
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SlipstreamF1 wrote:
I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.


You thought Ricciardo was fast until Vettel came along?!?? Care to explain?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:59 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
SlipstreamF1 wrote:
I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.


You thought Ricciardo was fast until Vettel came along?!?? Care to explain?

I think there's more to explain than that like Alonso and Button being past their primes when teamed against Hamilton, Alonso in particular was the reigning double world champion and aged just 26, whilst Button was not as fast as Hamilton anyway.

In respect to Ricciardo and Vettel it sounds like some kind of alternate universe were in 2014 we had a different outcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:13 pm 
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SlipstreamF1 wrote:
I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.

As a fan of both Button and Alonso, that's simply not true. Lewis partnered with both of them while they were reigning World Champions. Neither was out of their prime, and Button was never equal to Lewis in speed.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
SlipstreamF1 wrote:
I thought Kimi and Ricciardo were fast until Vettel came along. Then I thought Vettel was fast until Leclerk. I know Max is fast. I think everyone knows that Max is fast. I know Mika, Massa, Montoya were not. I know Michael was fast, because he made the Bennetton as fast as the Williams who allowed mediocre drivers to win, but MS's teammates could never do anything with the Bennetton. He did amazing things when the Ferrari was uncompetitive as well. Button and Alonso were fast but Lewis was only equal to them while being much younger while they were out of their primes. So basically, I don't think Lewis is fast. Even if he beat Nico, we have no one to compare Nico to aside from an aging MS.


You thought Ricciardo was fast until Vettel came along?!?? Care to explain?

I think there's more to explain than that like Alonso and Button being past their primes when teamed against Hamilton, Alonso in particular was the reigning double world champion and aged just 26, whilst Button was not as fast as Hamilton anyway.

In respect to Ricciardo and Vettel it sounds like some kind of alternate universe were in 2014 we had a different outcome.


I fully agree with you. Just thought I statt with the first one. No answer just supports my impression: just a troll.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:13 pm 
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This guy has made possibly the most ridiculous post in recent forum history. Top to bottom it reads like an alternate reality lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:05 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
This guy has made possibly the most ridiculous post in recent forum history. Top to bottom it reads like an alternate reality lol.

I don't know, I can think of some competition... 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:01 am 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
This guy has made possibly the most ridiculous post in recent forum history. Top to bottom it reads like an alternate reality lol.

I don't know, I can think of some competition... 8)


It hasn’t been long since Hamilton’s broken floor gave him an advantage because of the weight reduction :lol:


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