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How will Vettel/Leclerc Compare
Vettel will win by a mile 20%  20%  [ 18 ]
Vettel will win but it will be close 48%  48%  [ 44 ]
Leclerc will win but it will be close 29%  29%  [ 27 ]
Leclerc will win by a mile 3%  3%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 92
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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:31 pm 
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Liket wrote:
Vettel needs team protection from his new team mate in the very first race, sick.

I think it clearly shows the number 1 & 2 mindset of Ferrari going into this season but in terms of pace when they were on the same tyres Leclerc was getting dropped by Vettel and Verstappen. He came on strong at the end of the race but hes going to need to do better if he wants to drop the number 2 label, I want that impressed this weekend personally.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:43 pm 
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Formula 1 has never been about talent alone. Vettel is elite, experienced and has been at Ferrari for years. Leclerc is still learning the ropes. I was actually impressed with how close he is already, to be fair. If we look at other scenarios where a new guy comes in versus an established member of the team they often seem to struggle. Ocon couldn't outqualify Perez in their first year together, Sainz got bludgeoned by Hulkenberg. Even Lewis struggled initially against Rosberg in 13'. Every F1 team definitely have systems in place that take a while to learn. Leclerc is just not there yet in terms of the team dynamics, so give him time.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:44 pm 
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Posts: 6869
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Liket wrote:
Vettel needs team protection from his new team mate in the very first race, sick.

I think it clearly shows the number 1 & 2 mindset of Ferrari going into this season but in terms of pace when they were on the same tyres Leclerc was getting dropped by Vettel and Verstappen. He came on strong at the end of the race but hes going to need to do better if he wants to drop the number 2 label, I want that impressed this weekend personally.

All true. Ferrari really made a mess of the weekend. Vettel's strategy was absolutely ridiculous. They ruined his race and then they made a huge mistake with Charles at the end by not letting him attack Vettel and also not letting him go after the FL. Embarrassing weekend for Ferrari but I agree that Vettel was the better performer than Leclerc.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:59 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Liket wrote:
Vettel needs team protection from his new team mate in the very first race, sick.

I think it clearly shows the number 1 & 2 mindset of Ferrari going into this season but in terms of pace when they were on the same tyres Leclerc was getting dropped by Vettel and Verstappen. He came on strong at the end of the race but hes going to need to do better if he wants to drop the number 2 label, I want that impressed this weekend personally.

All true. Ferrari really made a mess of the weekend. Vettel's strategy was absolutely ridiculous. They ruined his race and then they made a huge mistake with Charles at the end by not letting him attack Vettel and also not letting him go after the FL. Embarrassing weekend for Ferrari but I agree that Vettel was the better performer than Leclerc.


:thumbup: :nod:

Don't know if Charles could have gotten the point from Valtteri but there was very little cost in giving him the chance to try.

_________________
Mission WinLater


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:42 pm 
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Posts: 2026
Well, I think Bottas is looking a fair bit closer to Hamilton than Leclerc is to Vettel. In qualifying, it is 4 - 1 to Vettel and 3 - 2 for Bottas. Leclerc will have had 1 win vs none for Vettel, but without any team orders, I'm certain Vettel will have beaten leclerc in all the others. Vettel maybe wasn't good in Bahrain, but he was better IMO than Leclerc in Baku. Some say Leclerc was good on race day, but it wasn't just the strategy that resulted in him being 60 seconds behind Vettel. Take away 25 seconds for the extra pit stop and another 15 for the fact he apparently wasn't always pushing. That still leaves him over 15 seconds behind Vettel on one of the easiest tracks of the year to overtake on. Gasly impressed a fair bit more that race to me.

The latest weekend for Leclerc was not that impressive either. 0.316 behind Vettel in qualifying and also behind Verstappen. Even in the race, despite vettel messing up a bit at the start, his pace still looked and turned out to be a fair bit better than Leclerc.
It seemed at the start of the season, many expected Bottas to be nearly the weakest of the top 6 drivers (in the top 3 teams) But I'd say both Ferrari drivers are looking worse than him and Vettel is looking better than Leclerc. Gasly is not impressive at all. Verstappen is very hard to judge IMO. I think Gasly is making him look a little better than he is. And if Verstappen had been Kvyat, you can almost guarantee he would have been given some sort of penalty for ending Sainz's race in Bahrain. His race was good, but that move could have ended his race like it did when he had a risky attempt on Hamilton the previous year. I wouldn't argue if some think he's been about the best driver this year though. Just a bit hard to tell so i wouldn't say that yet. But him, Hamilton and Bottas are all looking better than Ferrari and their 2 drivers.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 3:02 pm 
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Posts: 16050
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I think Bottas is looking a fair bit closer to Hamilton than Leclerc is to Vettel. In qualifying, it is 4 - 1 to Vettel and 3 - 2 for Bottas. Leclerc will have had 1 win vs none for Vettel, but without any team orders, I'm certain Vettel will have beaten leclerc in all the others. Vettel maybe wasn't good in Bahrain, but he was better IMO than Leclerc in Baku. Some say Leclerc was good on race day, but it wasn't just the strategy that resulted in him being 60 seconds behind Vettel. Take away 25 seconds for the extra pit stop and another 15 for the fact he apparently wasn't always pushing. That still leaves him over 15 seconds behind Vettel on one of the easiest tracks of the year to overtake on. Gasly impressed a fair bit more that race to me.

The latest weekend for Leclerc was not that impressive either. 0.316 behind Vettel in qualifying and also behind Verstappen. Even in the race, despite vettel messing up a bit at the start, his pace still looked and turned out to be a fair bit better than Leclerc.
It seemed at the start of the season, many expected Bottas to be nearly the weakest of the top 6 drivers (in the top 3 teams) But I'd say both Ferrari drivers are looking worse than him and Vettel is looking better than Leclerc. Gasly is not impressive at all. Verstappen is very hard to judge IMO. I think Gasly is making him look a little better than he is. And if Verstappen had been Kvyat, you can almost guarantee he would have been given some sort of penalty for ending Sainz's race in Bahrain. His race was good, but that move could have ended his race like it did when he had a risky attempt on Hamilton the previous year. I wouldn't argue if some think he's been about the best driver this year though. Just a bit hard to tell so i wouldn't say that yet. But him, Hamilton and Bottas are all looking better than Ferrari and their 2 drivers.


Lord knows what you think he should have done differently with Sainz. He was crowded onto the inside curb and bounced into him - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18OE3O_t7mM

It's not like he could've gone anywhere else.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 9:35 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I think Bottas is looking a fair bit closer to Hamilton than Leclerc is to Vettel. In qualifying, it is 4 - 1 to Vettel and 3 - 2 for Bottas. Leclerc will have had 1 win vs none for Vettel, but without any team orders, I'm certain Vettel will have beaten leclerc in all the others. Vettel maybe wasn't good in Bahrain, but he was better IMO than Leclerc in Baku. Some say Leclerc was good on race day, but it wasn't just the strategy that resulted in him being 60 seconds behind Vettel. Take away 25 seconds for the extra pit stop and another 15 for the fact he apparently wasn't always pushing. That still leaves him over 15 seconds behind Vettel on one of the easiest tracks of the year to overtake on. Gasly impressed a fair bit more that race to me.

The latest weekend for Leclerc was not that impressive either. 0.316 behind Vettel in qualifying and also behind Verstappen. Even in the race, despite vettel messing up a bit at the start, his pace still looked and turned out to be a fair bit better than Leclerc.
It seemed at the start of the season, many expected Bottas to be nearly the weakest of the top 6 drivers (in the top 3 teams) But I'd say both Ferrari drivers are looking worse than him and Vettel is looking better than Leclerc. Gasly is not impressive at all. Verstappen is very hard to judge IMO. I think Gasly is making him look a little better than he is. And if Verstappen had been Kvyat, you can almost guarantee he would have been given some sort of penalty for ending Sainz's race in Bahrain. His race was good, but that move could have ended his race like it did when he had a risky attempt on Hamilton the previous year. I wouldn't argue if some think he's been about the best driver this year though. Just a bit hard to tell so i wouldn't say that yet. But him, Hamilton and Bottas are all looking better than Ferrari and their 2 drivers.


Max isn't really hard to judge. He's been excellent for a year now, and it's continuing with force in 2019.

2019 rankings.

Verstappen
Hamilton
Bottas

Vettel
Leclerc



Gasly


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 10:07 pm 
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Posts: 25158
Invade wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I think Bottas is looking a fair bit closer to Hamilton than Leclerc is to Vettel. In qualifying, it is 4 - 1 to Vettel and 3 - 2 for Bottas. Leclerc will have had 1 win vs none for Vettel, but without any team orders, I'm certain Vettel will have beaten leclerc in all the others. Vettel maybe wasn't good in Bahrain, but he was better IMO than Leclerc in Baku. Some say Leclerc was good on race day, but it wasn't just the strategy that resulted in him being 60 seconds behind Vettel. Take away 25 seconds for the extra pit stop and another 15 for the fact he apparently wasn't always pushing. That still leaves him over 15 seconds behind Vettel on one of the easiest tracks of the year to overtake on. Gasly impressed a fair bit more that race to me.

The latest weekend for Leclerc was not that impressive either. 0.316 behind Vettel in qualifying and also behind Verstappen. Even in the race, despite vettel messing up a bit at the start, his pace still looked and turned out to be a fair bit better than Leclerc.
It seemed at the start of the season, many expected Bottas to be nearly the weakest of the top 6 drivers (in the top 3 teams) But I'd say both Ferrari drivers are looking worse than him and Vettel is looking better than Leclerc. Gasly is not impressive at all. Verstappen is very hard to judge IMO. I think Gasly is making him look a little better than he is. And if Verstappen had been Kvyat, you can almost guarantee he would have been given some sort of penalty for ending Sainz's race in Bahrain. His race was good, but that move could have ended his race like it did when he had a risky attempt on Hamilton the previous year. I wouldn't argue if some think he's been about the best driver this year though. Just a bit hard to tell so i wouldn't say that yet. But him, Hamilton and Bottas are all looking better than Ferrari and their 2 drivers.


Max isn't really hard to judge. He's been excellent for a year now, and it's continuing with force in 2019.

2019 rankings.

Verstappen
Hamilton
Bottas

Vettel
Leclerc



Gasly
I don't know, jury's out for me on Bottas. He seems to be qualifying well I'm not completely convinced by his race pace so far


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 10:53 pm 
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Posts: 6869
Invade wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I think Bottas is looking a fair bit closer to Hamilton than Leclerc is to Vettel. In qualifying, it is 4 - 1 to Vettel and 3 - 2 for Bottas. Leclerc will have had 1 win vs none for Vettel, but without any team orders, I'm certain Vettel will have beaten leclerc in all the others. Vettel maybe wasn't good in Bahrain, but he was better IMO than Leclerc in Baku. Some say Leclerc was good on race day, but it wasn't just the strategy that resulted in him being 60 seconds behind Vettel. Take away 25 seconds for the extra pit stop and another 15 for the fact he apparently wasn't always pushing. That still leaves him over 15 seconds behind Vettel on one of the easiest tracks of the year to overtake on. Gasly impressed a fair bit more that race to me.

The latest weekend for Leclerc was not that impressive either. 0.316 behind Vettel in qualifying and also behind Verstappen. Even in the race, despite vettel messing up a bit at the start, his pace still looked and turned out to be a fair bit better than Leclerc.
It seemed at the start of the season, many expected Bottas to be nearly the weakest of the top 6 drivers (in the top 3 teams) But I'd say both Ferrari drivers are looking worse than him and Vettel is looking better than Leclerc. Gasly is not impressive at all. Verstappen is very hard to judge IMO. I think Gasly is making him look a little better than he is. And if Verstappen had been Kvyat, you can almost guarantee he would have been given some sort of penalty for ending Sainz's race in Bahrain. His race was good, but that move could have ended his race like it did when he had a risky attempt on Hamilton the previous year. I wouldn't argue if some think he's been about the best driver this year though. Just a bit hard to tell so i wouldn't say that yet. But him, Hamilton and Bottas are all looking better than Ferrari and their 2 drivers.


Max isn't really hard to judge. He's been excellent for a year now, and it's continuing with force in 2019.

2019 rankings.

Verstappen
Hamilton
Bottas

Vettel
Leclerc



Gasly

Out of curiosity; is the Verstappen ranking for 2019 based on the sheer size of the margin to Gasly in most races?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 5:51 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16050
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I think Bottas is looking a fair bit closer to Hamilton than Leclerc is to Vettel. In qualifying, it is 4 - 1 to Vettel and 3 - 2 for Bottas. Leclerc will have had 1 win vs none for Vettel, but without any team orders, I'm certain Vettel will have beaten leclerc in all the others. Vettel maybe wasn't good in Bahrain, but he was better IMO than Leclerc in Baku. Some say Leclerc was good on race day, but it wasn't just the strategy that resulted in him being 60 seconds behind Vettel. Take away 25 seconds for the extra pit stop and another 15 for the fact he apparently wasn't always pushing. That still leaves him over 15 seconds behind Vettel on one of the easiest tracks of the year to overtake on. Gasly impressed a fair bit more that race to me.

The latest weekend for Leclerc was not that impressive either. 0.316 behind Vettel in qualifying and also behind Verstappen. Even in the race, despite vettel messing up a bit at the start, his pace still looked and turned out to be a fair bit better than Leclerc.
It seemed at the start of the season, many expected Bottas to be nearly the weakest of the top 6 drivers (in the top 3 teams) But I'd say both Ferrari drivers are looking worse than him and Vettel is looking better than Leclerc. Gasly is not impressive at all. Verstappen is very hard to judge IMO. I think Gasly is making him look a little better than he is. And if Verstappen had been Kvyat, you can almost guarantee he would have been given some sort of penalty for ending Sainz's race in Bahrain. His race was good, but that move could have ended his race like it did when he had a risky attempt on Hamilton the previous year. I wouldn't argue if some think he's been about the best driver this year though. Just a bit hard to tell so i wouldn't say that yet. But him, Hamilton and Bottas are all looking better than Ferrari and their 2 drivers.


Max isn't really hard to judge. He's been excellent for a year now, and it's continuing with force in 2019.

2019 rankings.

Verstappen
Hamilton
Bottas

Vettel
Leclerc



Gasly

Out of curiosity; is the Verstappen ranking for 2019 based on the sheer size of the margin to Gasly in most races?


For me Verstappen has been the driver of 2019 because he's maximised every single race. I don't think he;s left a point on the table.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:23 pm 
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Posts: 6869
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I think Bottas is looking a fair bit closer to Hamilton than Leclerc is to Vettel. In qualifying, it is 4 - 1 to Vettel and 3 - 2 for Bottas. Leclerc will have had 1 win vs none for Vettel, but without any team orders, I'm certain Vettel will have beaten leclerc in all the others. Vettel maybe wasn't good in Bahrain, but he was better IMO than Leclerc in Baku. Some say Leclerc was good on race day, but it wasn't just the strategy that resulted in him being 60 seconds behind Vettel. Take away 25 seconds for the extra pit stop and another 15 for the fact he apparently wasn't always pushing. That still leaves him over 15 seconds behind Vettel on one of the easiest tracks of the year to overtake on. Gasly impressed a fair bit more that race to me.

The latest weekend for Leclerc was not that impressive either. 0.316 behind Vettel in qualifying and also behind Verstappen. Even in the race, despite vettel messing up a bit at the start, his pace still looked and turned out to be a fair bit better than Leclerc.
It seemed at the start of the season, many expected Bottas to be nearly the weakest of the top 6 drivers (in the top 3 teams) But I'd say both Ferrari drivers are looking worse than him and Vettel is looking better than Leclerc. Gasly is not impressive at all. Verstappen is very hard to judge IMO. I think Gasly is making him look a little better than he is. And if Verstappen had been Kvyat, you can almost guarantee he would have been given some sort of penalty for ending Sainz's race in Bahrain. His race was good, but that move could have ended his race like it did when he had a risky attempt on Hamilton the previous year. I wouldn't argue if some think he's been about the best driver this year though. Just a bit hard to tell so i wouldn't say that yet. But him, Hamilton and Bottas are all looking better than Ferrari and their 2 drivers.


Max isn't really hard to judge. He's been excellent for a year now, and it's continuing with force in 2019.

2019 rankings.

Verstappen
Hamilton
Bottas

Vettel
Leclerc



Gasly

Out of curiosity; is the Verstappen ranking for 2019 based on the sheer size of the margin to Gasly in most races?


For me Verstappen has been the driver of 2019 because he's maximised every single race. I don't think he;s left a point on the table.

And you base that on the fact that he has been miles ahead of Gasly? Just asking, not disagreeing.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:42 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1946
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I think Bottas is looking a fair bit closer to Hamilton than Leclerc is to Vettel. In qualifying, it is 4 - 1 to Vettel and 3 - 2 for Bottas. Leclerc will have had 1 win vs none for Vettel, but without any team orders, I'm certain Vettel will have beaten leclerc in all the others. Vettel maybe wasn't good in Bahrain, but he was better IMO than Leclerc in Baku. Some say Leclerc was good on race day, but it wasn't just the strategy that resulted in him being 60 seconds behind Vettel. Take away 25 seconds for the extra pit stop and another 15 for the fact he apparently wasn't always pushing. That still leaves him over 15 seconds behind Vettel on one of the easiest tracks of the year to overtake on. Gasly impressed a fair bit more that race to me.

The latest weekend for Leclerc was not that impressive either. 0.316 behind Vettel in qualifying and also behind Verstappen. Even in the race, despite vettel messing up a bit at the start, his pace still looked and turned out to be a fair bit better than Leclerc.
It seemed at the start of the season, many expected Bottas to be nearly the weakest of the top 6 drivers (in the top 3 teams) But I'd say both Ferrari drivers are looking worse than him and Vettel is looking better than Leclerc. Gasly is not impressive at all. Verstappen is very hard to judge IMO. I think Gasly is making him look a little better than he is. And if Verstappen had been Kvyat, you can almost guarantee he would have been given some sort of penalty for ending Sainz's race in Bahrain. His race was good, but that move could have ended his race like it did when he had a risky attempt on Hamilton the previous year. I wouldn't argue if some think he's been about the best driver this year though. Just a bit hard to tell so i wouldn't say that yet. But him, Hamilton and Bottas are all looking better than Ferrari and their 2 drivers.


Max isn't really hard to judge. He's been excellent for a year now, and it's continuing with force in 2019.

2019 rankings.

Verstappen
Hamilton
Bottas

Vettel
Leclerc



Gasly

Out of curiosity; is the Verstappen ranking for 2019 based on the sheer size of the margin to Gasly in most races?


For me Verstappen has been the driver of 2019 because he's maximised every single race. I don't think he;s left a point on the table.

And you base that on the fact that he has been miles ahead of Gasly? Just asking, not disagreeing.


His point is in his answer, Max has not left any point on the table.

Being miles ahead of Gasly is a bonus.

His performance so far is akin to Vettel in '15 where he would split the Mercedes drivers and at times even beat them.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:48 pm 
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Posts: 6869
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Out of curiosity; is the Verstappen ranking for 2019 based on the sheer size of the margin to Gasly in most races?


For me Verstappen has been the driver of 2019 because he's maximised every single race. I don't think he;s left a point on the table.

And you base that on the fact that he has been miles ahead of Gasly? Just asking, not disagreeing.


His point is in his answer, Max has not left any point on the table.

Being miles ahead of Gasly is a bonus.

His performance so far is akin to Vettel in '15 where he would split the Mercedes drivers and at times even beat them.

The idea that he hasn't left points on the table comes from an assertion that he couldn't have done better in the car that he's driving. What I'm getting at is how exactly one comes to that conclusion.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:55 pm 
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Posts: 1946
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Out of curiosity; is the Verstappen ranking for 2019 based on the sheer size of the margin to Gasly in most races?


For me Verstappen has been the driver of 2019 because he's maximised every single race. I don't think he;s left a point on the table.

And you base that on the fact that he has been miles ahead of Gasly? Just asking, not disagreeing.


His point is in his answer, Max has not left any point on the table.

Being miles ahead of Gasly is a bonus.

His performance so far is akin to Vettel in '15 where he would split the Mercedes drivers and at times even beat them.

The idea that he hasn't left points on the table comes from an assertion that he couldn't have done better in the car that he's driving. What I'm getting at is how exactly one comes to that conclusion.


Maybe by watching a race weekend to start with, except you are here to argue the Redbull is faster than the Ferrari!


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 3:03 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 6869
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The idea that he hasn't left points on the table comes from an assertion that he couldn't have done better in the car that he's driving. What I'm getting at is how exactly one comes to that conclusion.


Maybe by watching a race weekend to start with, except you are here to argue the Redbull is faster than the Ferrari!

I'm not here to argue anything. You are the only one in this conversation being argumentative. I watch every race weekend and I also think that Max has performed excellently. Don't put words in my mouth and stop making up positions that no one ever actually expressed. I most certainly didn't say that the Red Bull is faster than the Ferrari nor is that what I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 3:03 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16050
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I think Bottas is looking a fair bit closer to Hamilton than Leclerc is to Vettel. In qualifying, it is 4 - 1 to Vettel and 3 - 2 for Bottas. Leclerc will have had 1 win vs none for Vettel, but without any team orders, I'm certain Vettel will have beaten leclerc in all the others. Vettel maybe wasn't good in Bahrain, but he was better IMO than Leclerc in Baku. Some say Leclerc was good on race day, but it wasn't just the strategy that resulted in him being 60 seconds behind Vettel. Take away 25 seconds for the extra pit stop and another 15 for the fact he apparently wasn't always pushing. That still leaves him over 15 seconds behind Vettel on one of the easiest tracks of the year to overtake on. Gasly impressed a fair bit more that race to me.

The latest weekend for Leclerc was not that impressive either. 0.316 behind Vettel in qualifying and also behind Verstappen. Even in the race, despite vettel messing up a bit at the start, his pace still looked and turned out to be a fair bit better than Leclerc.
It seemed at the start of the season, many expected Bottas to be nearly the weakest of the top 6 drivers (in the top 3 teams) But I'd say both Ferrari drivers are looking worse than him and Vettel is looking better than Leclerc. Gasly is not impressive at all. Verstappen is very hard to judge IMO. I think Gasly is making him look a little better than he is. And if Verstappen had been Kvyat, you can almost guarantee he would have been given some sort of penalty for ending Sainz's race in Bahrain. His race was good, but that move could have ended his race like it did when he had a risky attempt on Hamilton the previous year. I wouldn't argue if some think he's been about the best driver this year though. Just a bit hard to tell so i wouldn't say that yet. But him, Hamilton and Bottas are all looking better than Ferrari and their 2 drivers.


Max isn't really hard to judge. He's been excellent for a year now, and it's continuing with force in 2019.

2019 rankings.

Verstappen
Hamilton
Bottas

Vettel
Leclerc



Gasly

Out of curiosity; is the Verstappen ranking for 2019 based on the sheer size of the margin to Gasly in most races?


For me Verstappen has been the driver of 2019 because he's maximised every single race. I don't think he;s left a point on the table.

And you base that on the fact that he has been miles ahead of Gasly? Just asking, not disagreeing.


Obviously Gasly plays a part as his team mate. We also have a good idea of how he generally compares to Vettel.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 3:10 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1946
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The idea that he hasn't left points on the table comes from an assertion that he couldn't have done better in the car that he's driving. What I'm getting at is how exactly one comes to that conclusion.


Maybe by watching a race weekend to start with, except you are here to argue the Redbull is faster than the Ferrari!

I'm not here to argue anything. You are the only one in this conversation being argumentative. I watch every race weekend and I also think that Max has performed excellently. Don't put words in my mouth and stop making up positions that no one ever actually expressed. I most certainly didn't say that the Red Bull is faster than the Ferrari nor is that what I think.


How am I being argumentative?

You are asking questions that are obvious to the casual viewer hence why I'm asking you the question.

If the pecking order so far has been 1 Mercedes 2 Ferrari 3 Redbull, and Verstappen has been splitting the Ferrari's and finishing ahead of them irrespective of Ferrari's mistakes, why do you need to take Gasly's performance into account?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 3:16 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Out of curiosity; is the Verstappen ranking for 2019 based on the sheer size of the margin to Gasly in most races?


For me Verstappen has been the driver of 2019 because he's maximised every single race. I don't think he;s left a point on the table.

And you base that on the fact that he has been miles ahead of Gasly? Just asking, not disagreeing.


Obviously Gasly plays a part as his team mate. We also have a good idea of how he generally compares to Vettel.

I see. Yeah, I think Max is doing a great job this year. He has really rounded out his game a lot. I don't see the unnecessary risks (and subsequent incidents) that once held him back. I see consistency from Max really starting around the middle of the season last year and carrying through to this year. Other than the incident in Brazil, he has stayed out of trouble for the most part while still being blindingly quick both on Saturdays and Sundays.

Overall, after the first 5 rounds, I would also rate Max #1. I think he has been as good as Lewis on Sundays but better on Saturdays thus far in 2019. I think Vettel has had a couple of significant mistakes already this year as has Leclerc. Bottas's consistency and pace have both been impressive. During the races he has been less special than in qualifying but he hasn't made any big errors and he has been competitive with Hamilton in the same car.

Gasly has been nowhere though and I think it's to a point where you'd have to say that he has been poor. I think teaming up with Verstappen is a massive challenge for anyone but I just don't see Gasly as being in the same league as the top drivers. He doesn't seem to belong up there at the front.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 3:20 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The idea that he hasn't left points on the table comes from an assertion that he couldn't have done better in the car that he's driving. What I'm getting at is how exactly one comes to that conclusion.


Maybe by watching a race weekend to start with, except you are here to argue the Redbull is faster than the Ferrari!

I'm not here to argue anything. You are the only one in this conversation being argumentative. I watch every race weekend and I also think that Max has performed excellently. Don't put words in my mouth and stop making up positions that no one ever actually expressed. I most certainly didn't say that the Red Bull is faster than the Ferrari nor is that what I think.


How am I being argumentative?

You are asking questions that are obvious to the casual viewer hence why I'm asking you the question.

If the pecking order so far has been 1 Mercedes 2 Ferrari 3 Redbull, and Verstappen has been splitting the Ferrari's and finishing ahead of them irrespective of Ferrari's mistakes, why do you need to take Gasly's performance into account?

You didn't ask me a question. You made a statement; which was that I am "here to argue the Redbull is faster than the Ferrari!". That was a totally false statement. You seem to have assumed that I wanted to argue that Max wasn't the #1 performer of the first 5 races but that wasn't my aim. I actually tried to make that clear when I said that I was not disagreeing but I suppose that, for someone like yourself, that just doesn't compute...


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 3:21 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Out of curiosity; is the Verstappen ranking for 2019 based on the sheer size of the margin to Gasly in most races?


For me Verstappen has been the driver of 2019 because he's maximised every single race. I don't think he;s left a point on the table.

And you base that on the fact that he has been miles ahead of Gasly? Just asking, not disagreeing.


Obviously Gasly plays a part as his team mate. We also have a good idea of how he generally compares to Vettel.

I see. Yeah, I think Max is doing a great job this year. He has really rounded out his game a lot. I don't see the unnecessary risks (and subsequent incidents) that once held him back. I see consistency from Max really starting around the middle of the season last year and carrying through to this year. Other than the incident in Brazil, he has stayed out of trouble for the most part while still being blindingly quick both on Saturdays and Sundays.

Overall, after the first 5 rounds, I would also rate Max #1. I think he has been as good as Lewis on Sundays but better on Saturdays thus far in 2019. I think Vettel has had a couple of significant mistakes already this year as has Leclerc. Bottas's consistency and pace have both been impressive. During the races he has been less special than in qualifying but he hasn't made any big errors and he has been competitive with Hamilton in the same car.

Gasly has been nowhere though and I think it's to a point where you'd have to say that he has been poor. I think teaming up with Verstappen is a massive challenge for anyone but I just don't see Gasly as being in the same league as the top drivers. He doesn't seem to belong up there at the front.


I wouldn't say Gasly has been hugely poor outside the first 2 races. I think he is showing what an average driver looks alongside an exceptional one.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 9:02 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I wouldn't say Gasly has been hugely poor outside the first 2 races. I think he is showing what an average driver looks alongside an exceptional one.

Average is poor when you're in a top car. He's further off Max than Vandoorne was off Alonso, and poor Stoff got flamed to high heaven for being a terrible F1 driver.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:05 am 
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Being consitently about half a second off your teammate can only be because of below average performance. Sorry, I don't care if it's Max. Gasly should not be that far off.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:22 am 
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I popped in to see what was up in the Vettel/Leclerc thread and it's all about Max/Pierre, lol. I'm doing this year mostly in solitude, but good to see things are still lively.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 1:31 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I think Bottas is looking a fair bit closer to Hamilton than Leclerc is to Vettel. In qualifying, it is 4 - 1 to Vettel and 3 - 2 for Bottas. Leclerc will have had 1 win vs none for Vettel, but without any team orders, I'm certain Vettel will have beaten leclerc in all the others. Vettel maybe wasn't good in Bahrain, but he was better IMO than Leclerc in Baku. Some say Leclerc was good on race day, but it wasn't just the strategy that resulted in him being 60 seconds behind Vettel. Take away 25 seconds for the extra pit stop and another 15 for the fact he apparently wasn't always pushing. That still leaves him over 15 seconds behind Vettel on one of the easiest tracks of the year to overtake on. Gasly impressed a fair bit more that race to me.

The latest weekend for Leclerc was not that impressive either. 0.316 behind Vettel in qualifying and also behind Verstappen. Even in the race, despite vettel messing up a bit at the start, his pace still looked and turned out to be a fair bit better than Leclerc.
It seemed at the start of the season, many expected Bottas to be nearly the weakest of the top 6 drivers (in the top 3 teams) But I'd say both Ferrari drivers are looking worse than him and Vettel is looking better than Leclerc. Gasly is not impressive at all. Verstappen is very hard to judge IMO. I think Gasly is making him look a little better than he is. And if Verstappen had been Kvyat, you can almost guarantee he would have been given some sort of penalty for ending Sainz's race in Bahrain. His race was good, but that move could have ended his race like it did when he had a risky attempt on Hamilton the previous year. I wouldn't argue if some think he's been about the best driver this year though. Just a bit hard to tell so i wouldn't say that yet. But him, Hamilton and Bottas are all looking better than Ferrari and their 2 drivers.


Max isn't really hard to judge. He's been excellent for a year now, and it's continuing with force in 2019.

2019 rankings.

Verstappen
Hamilton
Bottas

Vettel
Leclerc



Gasly

Out of curiosity; is the Verstappen ranking for 2019 based on the sheer size of the margin to Gasly in most races?


No, I don't know how to gauge Gasly other than to say he's not that good.

Consistency over Saturday and Sunday plus besting the Ferrari pair, despite Ferrari making a mess of things. Ham has been fine for the most part on Saturday but hasn't been putting Bottas away. Max is under absolutely zero pressure from Gasly though so it's a free ride in some respect.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 1:46 pm 
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Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I think Bottas is looking a fair bit closer to Hamilton than Leclerc is to Vettel. In qualifying, it is 4 - 1 to Vettel and 3 - 2 for Bottas. Leclerc will have had 1 win vs none for Vettel, but without any team orders, I'm certain Vettel will have beaten leclerc in all the others. Vettel maybe wasn't good in Bahrain, but he was better IMO than Leclerc in Baku. Some say Leclerc was good on race day, but it wasn't just the strategy that resulted in him being 60 seconds behind Vettel. Take away 25 seconds for the extra pit stop and another 15 for the fact he apparently wasn't always pushing. That still leaves him over 15 seconds behind Vettel on one of the easiest tracks of the year to overtake on. Gasly impressed a fair bit more that race to me.

The latest weekend for Leclerc was not that impressive either. 0.316 behind Vettel in qualifying and also behind Verstappen. Even in the race, despite vettel messing up a bit at the start, his pace still looked and turned out to be a fair bit better than Leclerc.
It seemed at the start of the season, many expected Bottas to be nearly the weakest of the top 6 drivers (in the top 3 teams) But I'd say both Ferrari drivers are looking worse than him and Vettel is looking better than Leclerc. Gasly is not impressive at all. Verstappen is very hard to judge IMO. I think Gasly is making him look a little better than he is. And if Verstappen had been Kvyat, you can almost guarantee he would have been given some sort of penalty for ending Sainz's race in Bahrain. His race was good, but that move could have ended his race like it did when he had a risky attempt on Hamilton the previous year. I wouldn't argue if some think he's been about the best driver this year though. Just a bit hard to tell so i wouldn't say that yet. But him, Hamilton and Bottas are all looking better than Ferrari and their 2 drivers.


Max isn't really hard to judge. He's been excellent for a year now, and it's continuing with force in 2019.

2019 rankings.

Verstappen
Hamilton
Bottas

Vettel
Leclerc



Gasly

Out of curiosity; is the Verstappen ranking for 2019 based on the sheer size of the margin to Gasly in most races?


No, I don't know how to gauge Gasly other than to say he's not that good.

Consistency over Saturday and Sunday plus besting the Ferrari pair, despite Ferrari making a mess of things. Ham has been fine for the most part on Saturday but hasn't been putting Bottas away. Max is under absolutely zero pressure from Gasly though so it's a free ride in some respect.

From my perspective I've no qualms with Verstappen being seen as the best driver thus far, the Ferrari is better than the Red Bull yet he leads both Ferraris whilst it's widely acknowledged that Hamilton is not yet up to full speed.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:13 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I wouldn't say Gasly has been hugely poor outside the first 2 races. I think he is showing what an average driver looks alongside an exceptional one.

Average is poor when you're in a top car. He's further off Max than Vandoorne was off Alonso, and poor Stoff got flamed to high heaven for being a terrible F1 driver.



That's a good point. There's no room to be average in a top drive. (Though on my spreadsheets for the season so far he actually comes out below average.)


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 4:52 pm 
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What is happening with Leclerc? I think he's just showing that he's just not as good as people thought he was. Pushing as hard as he did after that puncture was idiotic. The spin he had that caused it barely caused any damage. He caused virtually all of it by carelessly driving around far to quickly and cost himself the race. One of the most silly things I've seen from a driver in quite some time given that he had a long time to think about preventing this damage. It is hard to believe that Ferrari won't have told him to slow down, but I am guessing he will have just been ignoring them and was just so desperate to get back. Very costly mistake from such a tiny contact.

Vettel is not having a strong start to the season but overall, easily is doing better and is not making mistakes to the same level as Leclerc. Out of the top 3 teams drivers, Verstappen, Hamilton and Bottas are all impressive, then Vettel certainly not as much and can i say this? - Leclerc has overall been a fair bit worse than Vettel. Then Gasly has not been good either. This is not the way people seemed to expect leclerc to perform but he is really disappointing. Given how much Bottas was being criticised at the end of last year, i doubt anyone expected him to look this much better than Leclerc, or even Vettel.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 4:56 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
What is happening with Leclerc? I think he's just showing that he's just not as good as people thought he was. Pushing as hard as he did after that puncture was idiotic. The spin he had that caused it barely caused any damage. He caused virtually all of it by carelessly driving around far to quickly and cost himself the race. One of the most silly things I've seen from a driver in quite some time given that he had a long time to think about preventing this damage. It is hard to believe that Ferrari won't have told him to slow down, but I am guessing he will have just been ignoring them and was just so desperate to get back. Very costly mistake from such a tiny contact.

Vettel is not having a strong start to the season but overall, easily is doing better and is not making mistakes to the same level as Leclerc. Out of the top 3 teams drivers, Verstappen, Hamilton and Bottas are all impressive, then Vettel certainly not as much and can i say this? - Leclerc has overall been a fair bit worse than Vettel. Then Gasly has not been good either. This is not the way people seemed to expect leclerc to perform but he is really disappointing. Given how much Bottas was being criticised at the end of last year, i doubt anyone expected him to look this much better than Leclerc, or even Vettel.


Looking at the poll in this thread it looks like most people got it about right. He drove like a dick with the puncture today but overall I think he's done a good job for a guy in only his second season, his first with a new team and with a world champion as a team mate. I think he's showing he has the potential to be a WDC whilst not quite being there as yet. He's got loads of upside. I would expect him to improve throughout the year.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:01 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
What is happening with Leclerc? I think he's just showing that he's just not as good as people thought he was. Pushing as hard as he did after that puncture was idiotic. The spin he had that caused it barely caused any damage. He caused virtually all of it by carelessly driving around far to quickly and cost himself the race. One of the most silly things I've seen from a driver in quite some time given that he had a long time to think about preventing this damage. It is hard to believe that Ferrari won't have told him to slow down, but I am guessing he will have just been ignoring them and was just so desperate to get back. Very costly mistake from such a tiny contact.

Vettel is not having a strong start to the season but overall, easily is doing better and is not making mistakes to the same level as Leclerc. Out of the top 3 teams drivers, Verstappen, Hamilton and Bottas are all impressive, then Vettel certainly not as much and can i say this? - Leclerc has overall been a fair bit worse than Vettel. Then Gasly has not been good either. This is not the way people seemed to expect leclerc to perform but he is really disappointing. Given how much Bottas was being criticised at the end of last year, i doubt anyone expected him to look this much better than Leclerc, or even Vettel.


Looking at the poll in this thread it looks like most people got it about right. He drove like a dick with the puncture today but overall I think he's done a good job for a guy in only his second season, his first with a new team and with a world champion as a team mate. I think he's showing he has the potential to be a WDC whilst not quite being there as yet. He's got loads of upside. I would expect him to improve throughout the year.

Yea, he has shown that he can be very strong, but he is not consistent and is quite error prone so far. The fact that he's making bigger mistakes at a top team compared to last year is not good at all though.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:11 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
What is happening with Leclerc? I think he's just showing that he's just not as good as people thought he was. Pushing as hard as he did after that puncture was idiotic. The spin he had that caused it barely caused any damage. He caused virtually all of it by carelessly driving around far to quickly and cost himself the race. One of the most silly things I've seen from a driver in quite some time given that he had a long time to think about preventing this damage. It is hard to believe that Ferrari won't have told him to slow down, but I am guessing he will have just been ignoring them and was just so desperate to get back. Very costly mistake from such a tiny contact.

Vettel is not having a strong start to the season but overall, easily is doing better and is not making mistakes to the same level as Leclerc. Out of the top 3 teams drivers, Verstappen, Hamilton and Bottas are all impressive, then Vettel certainly not as much and can i say this? - Leclerc has overall been a fair bit worse than Vettel. Then Gasly has not been good either. This is not the way people seemed to expect leclerc to perform but he is really disappointing. Given how much Bottas was being criticised at the end of last year, i doubt anyone expected him to look this much better than Leclerc, or even Vettel.


Looking at the poll in this thread it looks like most people got it about right. He drove like a dick with the puncture today but overall I think he's done a good job for a guy in only his second season, his first with a new team and with a world champion as a team mate. I think he's showing he has the potential to be a WDC whilst not quite being there as yet. He's got loads of upside. I would expect him to improve throughout the year.

Yea, he has shown that he can be very strong, but he is not consistent and is quite error prone so far. The fact that he's making bigger mistakes at a top team compared to last year is not good at all though.


I don't know really. It's kind of what you'd expect with a guy in only his second season? He's got the speed which is the main thing. He can dial out the mistakes. If you remember both Hamilton and Vettel made loads of errors in their second seasons. You can't expect someone so inexperienced to be bullet proof.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:32 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
What is happening with Leclerc? I think he's just showing that he's just not as good as people thought he was. Pushing as hard as he did after that puncture was idiotic. The spin he had that caused it barely caused any damage. He caused virtually all of it by carelessly driving around far to quickly and cost himself the race. One of the most silly things I've seen from a driver in quite some time given that he had a long time to think about preventing this damage. It is hard to believe that Ferrari won't have told him to slow down, but I am guessing he will have just been ignoring them and was just so desperate to get back. Very costly mistake from such a tiny contact.

Vettel is not having a strong start to the season but overall, easily is doing better and is not making mistakes to the same level as Leclerc. Out of the top 3 teams drivers, Verstappen, Hamilton and Bottas are all impressive, then Vettel certainly not as much and can i say this? - Leclerc has overall been a fair bit worse than Vettel. Then Gasly has not been good either. This is not the way people seemed to expect leclerc to perform but he is really disappointing. Given how much Bottas was being criticised at the end of last year, i doubt anyone expected him to look this much better than Leclerc, or even Vettel.


Looking at the poll in this thread it looks like most people got it about right. He drove like a dick with the puncture today but overall I think he's done a good job for a guy in only his second season, his first with a new team and with a world champion as a team mate. I think he's showing he has the potential to be a WDC whilst not quite being there as yet. He's got loads of upside. I would expect him to improve throughout the year.

Yea, he has shown that he can be very strong, but he is not consistent and is quite error prone so far. The fact that he's making bigger mistakes at a top team compared to last year is not good at all though.


I don't know really. It's kind of what you'd expect with a guy in only his second season? He's got the speed which is the main thing. He can dial out the mistakes. If you remember both Hamilton and Vettel made loads of errors in their second seasons. You can't expect someone so inexperienced to be bullet proof.

:thumbup: he's shown the potential to be great, he's never looked completely blown away by Vettel in raw speed and he's actually done the opposite in Bahrain. Worth remembering he's going up against one of the best in the business here.

Give him time to iron out the cracks and he will be there. Given Ferrari took him on after only 1 season they have to expect a bit of this tbh, if they wanted a more complete driver they should have given him another season or 2 at Alfa.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:39 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
What is happening with Leclerc? I think he's just showing that he's just not as good as people thought he was. Pushing as hard as he did after that puncture was idiotic. The spin he had that caused it barely caused any damage. He caused virtually all of it by carelessly driving around far to quickly and cost himself the race. One of the most silly things I've seen from a driver in quite some time given that he had a long time to think about preventing this damage. It is hard to believe that Ferrari won't have told him to slow down, but I am guessing he will have just been ignoring them and was just so desperate to get back. Very costly mistake from such a tiny contact.

Vettel is not having a strong start to the season but overall, easily is doing better and is not making mistakes to the same level as Leclerc. Out of the top 3 teams drivers, Verstappen, Hamilton and Bottas are all impressive, then Vettel certainly not as much and can i say this? - Leclerc has overall been a fair bit worse than Vettel. Then Gasly has not been good either. This is not the way people seemed to expect leclerc to perform but he is really disappointing. Given how much Bottas was being criticised at the end of last year, i doubt anyone expected him to look this much better than Leclerc, or even Vettel.


Looking at the poll in this thread it looks like most people got it about right. He drove like a dick with the puncture today but overall I think he's done a good job for a guy in only his second season, his first with a new team and with a world champion as a team mate. I think he's showing he has the potential to be a WDC whilst not quite being there as yet. He's got loads of upside. I would expect him to improve throughout the year.

Yea, he has shown that he can be very strong, but he is not consistent and is quite error prone so far. The fact that he's making bigger mistakes at a top team compared to last year is not good at all though.


I don't know really. It's kind of what you'd expect with a guy in only his second season? He's got the speed which is the main thing. He can dial out the mistakes. If you remember both Hamilton and Vettel made loads of errors in their second seasons. You can't expect someone so inexperienced to be bullet proof.

But my point is that his mistakes last year never resulted in a retirement, nor a crash in qualifying. Making these mistakes in a top team with a car that is probably a lot easier to drive is what I think is poor. Given as a rookie, in a way he was a bit more consistent.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:42 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
What is happening with Leclerc? I think he's just showing that he's just not as good as people thought he was. Pushing as hard as he did after that puncture was idiotic. The spin he had that caused it barely caused any damage. He caused virtually all of it by carelessly driving around far to quickly and cost himself the race. One of the most silly things I've seen from a driver in quite some time given that he had a long time to think about preventing this damage. It is hard to believe that Ferrari won't have told him to slow down, but I am guessing he will have just been ignoring them and was just so desperate to get back. Very costly mistake from such a tiny contact.

Vettel is not having a strong start to the season but overall, easily is doing better and is not making mistakes to the same level as Leclerc. Out of the top 3 teams drivers, Verstappen, Hamilton and Bottas are all impressive, then Vettel certainly not as much and can i say this? - Leclerc has overall been a fair bit worse than Vettel. Then Gasly has not been good either. This is not the way people seemed to expect leclerc to perform but he is really disappointing. Given how much Bottas was being criticised at the end of last year, i doubt anyone expected him to look this much better than Leclerc, or even Vettel.


Looking at the poll in this thread it looks like most people got it about right. He drove like a dick with the puncture today but overall I think he's done a good job for a guy in only his second season, his first with a new team and with a world champion as a team mate. I think he's showing he has the potential to be a WDC whilst not quite being there as yet. He's got loads of upside. I would expect him to improve throughout the year.

Yea, he has shown that he can be very strong, but he is not consistent and is quite error prone so far. The fact that he's making bigger mistakes at a top team compared to last year is not good at all though.


I don't know really. It's kind of what you'd expect with a guy in only his second season? He's got the speed which is the main thing. He can dial out the mistakes. If you remember both Hamilton and Vettel made loads of errors in their second seasons. You can't expect someone so inexperienced to be bullet proof.

:thumbup: he's shown the potential to be great, he's never looked completely blown away by Vettel in raw speed and he's actually done the opposite in Bahrain. Worth remembering he's going up against one of the best in the business here.

Give him time to iron out the cracks and he will be there. Given Ferrari took him on after only 1 season they have to expect a bit of this tbh, if they wanted a more complete driver they should have given him another season or 2 at Alfa.

Totally agree. He's had some bumpy race weekends but his team hasn't done him any favors. They have basically messed up 3 of his races and he had a mechanical failure in another one. As a young driver in a top car for the first time; it would be nice to have a solid team around him that can leave him to just focus on his driving. Instead he's dealing with team orders, botched strategies and all manner of issues which will divert his focus from the cockpit.

Honestly what I have seen from him confirms to me that he is a future super star. I think his level of performance has been comparable to Vettel (though not better) for the most part. It just hasn't been a smooth season for him or Ferrari. It has been sloppy and they need to clean things up a bit (both he and the team).


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:44 pm 
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What are you guys talking about? Considering how horribly Ferrari has been making a mess of his race and qualifying in the last few races anyone would have a meltdown

Charles may have let his emotions get the best of him today but after Ferrari's stupidity can we blame him. Especially on a track like this where if your lawn mower is 2 meters wide then a F1 car behind it can't overtake.

Let's not forget his qualifying from last here in changing conditions when his team called him back in and he said 1 more lap and got through.

I would say I am glad about what happened today. This will make up the higher ups at Ferrari sit up and take notice because Charles just game the bird


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:52 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
What is happening with Leclerc? I think he's just showing that he's just not as good as people thought he was. Pushing as hard as he did after that puncture was idiotic. The spin he had that caused it barely caused any damage. He caused virtually all of it by carelessly driving around far to quickly and cost himself the race. One of the most silly things I've seen from a driver in quite some time given that he had a long time to think about preventing this damage. It is hard to believe that Ferrari won't have told him to slow down, but I am guessing he will have just been ignoring them and was just so desperate to get back. Very costly mistake from such a tiny contact.

Vettel is not having a strong start to the season but overall, easily is doing better and is not making mistakes to the same level as Leclerc. Out of the top 3 teams drivers, Verstappen, Hamilton and Bottas are all impressive, then Vettel certainly not as much and can i say this? - Leclerc has overall been a fair bit worse than Vettel. Then Gasly has not been good either. This is not the way people seemed to expect leclerc to perform but he is really disappointing. Given how much Bottas was being criticised at the end of last year, i doubt anyone expected him to look this much better than Leclerc, or even Vettel.


Looking at the poll in this thread it looks like most people got it about right. He drove like a dick with the puncture today but overall I think he's done a good job for a guy in only his second season, his first with a new team and with a world champion as a team mate. I think he's showing he has the potential to be a WDC whilst not quite being there as yet. He's got loads of upside. I would expect him to improve throughout the year.

Yea, he has shown that he can be very strong, but he is not consistent and is quite error prone so far. The fact that he's making bigger mistakes at a top team compared to last year is not good at all though.


I don't know really. It's kind of what you'd expect with a guy in only his second season? He's got the speed which is the main thing. He can dial out the mistakes. If you remember both Hamilton and Vettel made loads of errors in their second seasons. You can't expect someone so inexperienced to be bullet proof.

But my point is that his mistakes last year never resulted in a retirement, nor a crash in qualifying. Making these mistakes in a top team with a car that is probably a lot easier to drive is what I think is poor. Given as a rookie, in a way he was a bit more consistent.


This happens very often to be honest. We see time and time again drivers making more errors in season 2 as they start to push the limits more. I doubt Ferrari are concerned.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 8:55 pm 
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d_dingbat wrote:
What are you guys talking about? Considering how horribly Ferrari has been making a mess of his race and qualifying in the last few races anyone would have a meltdown

Charles may have let his emotions get the best of him today but after Ferrari's stupidity can we blame him. Especially on a track like this where if your lawn mower is 2 meters wide then a F1 car behind it can't overtake.

Let's not forget his qualifying from last here in changing conditions when his team called him back in and he said 1 more lap and got through.

I would say I am glad about what happened today. This will make up the higher ups at Ferrari sit up and take notice because Charles just game the bird


That was Brazil not Monaco.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 8:57 pm 
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What is funny with folks defending Leclerc is they didn't give Verstappen this same pass they are ready to give Leclerc.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 9:04 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
What is funny with folks defending Leclerc is they didn't give Verstappen this same pass they are ready to give Leclerc.


This crossed my mind earlier today but I would see that it's not really a fair comparison - Verstappen is three years more experienced in F1 than Leclerc


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:44 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
What is funny with folks defending Leclerc is they didn't give Verstappen this same pass they are ready to give Leclerc.

From my observation, Vettel and Verstappen are the two drivers with the least amount of leeway. Everyone on here and other F1 forums will jump on them at the sight of a mistake.

At the moment Leclerc, like Ricciardo, is a media darling who can do no wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 12:11 am 
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Clearly Ferrari screwed his race the day before but I'm not much impressed by Leclerc saying he didn't care if he crashed given that's exactly what he did.

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