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How will Vettel/Leclerc Compare
Vettel will win by a mile 19%  19%  [ 18 ]
Vettel will win but it will be close 48%  48%  [ 45 ]
Leclerc will win but it will be close 30%  30%  [ 28 ]
Leclerc will win by a mile 3%  3%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 94
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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 12:21 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
trento wrote:
pokerman wrote:

Vettel is not filthy rich himself?

yes but earning another 20 million or so would mean more to him than Rosberg, whose family networth far exceeds that of Vettel.

I'm not sure it would. Once you have enough, don't you have enough? I've never really got the vibe from Vettel that he's motivated by being super rich (beyond just being set for life, which he already very much is).

Indeed Vettel comes across as someone with simple needs, he has more than enough money to lead the lifestyle he requires.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 12:37 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
trento wrote:
pokerman wrote:

Vettel is not filthy rich himself?

yes but earning another 20 million or so would mean more to him than Rosberg, whose family networth far exceeds that of Vettel.

I'm not sure it would. Once you have enough, don't you have enough? I've never really got the vibe from Vettel that he's motivated by being super rich (beyond just being set for life, which he already very much is).


I think once you have $100 million another $20 million probably isn't going to make that much difference to your lifestyle. Especially as Vettel doesn't seem to be interested in the high life.



I saw an interesting vlog on this; although unfortunately I cant remember whose it was, maybe Saward, Windsor? They were making the point that Vettel and Hamilton have the same outlook on retirement. They both avoid F1 unless they are obligated to be involved; Hamilton jumping out of airplanes or off mountains, whilst Vettel can't wait to get home to his family, classic bikes and Beatles memorabilia. Quite simply the current F1 circus bores them. And both need one thing to keep them in the sport, having a chance to drive a car capable of winning races. Once that chance disappears, so will they.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:44 am 
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Well, when this pole started I voted that Vettel would best Leclerc in 2019 by a slim margin. After Silverstone, Charles is three points behind Seb and on the charge with four podiums in a row.

Seb has on ocasion looked good at times this year but not often. The last race he finished on the podium was Montreal which can not be said to be a success for him. He was caught and forced into a significant error by Lewis when he lost it under braking.

We have Germany and Hungary before the summer break. I would tentatively predict that Charles will be leading Sebastian by the summer break. At this point I am also rooting for Charles to outperform Vettel for the rest of the year.

I still like Seb but for the last year, (Since Germany last year) he has had a lot of problems with his racecraft and doesn't seem to be totally involved.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:58 am 
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I said that Vettel will win but it will be close, that could still happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:13 pm 
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I said Leclerc will win but it will be close, so I'm feeling fairly comfortable with that prediction at present. If the momentum continues the way it is right now, the main danger is how close it will be.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:29 pm 
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Yes, Im in that category too (CL but close), interesting that it is/was 68:32 in favour of Vettel. The problem for Ferrari is Red Bull's speed at the moment and MV in particular who will start splitting the Ferraris and so affecting the points for Vettel and Leclerc.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:17 pm 
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Germany should be a strong venue for Ferrari. There are a lot of flat out sections. We also have Spa and Monza coming up after the break. I think that first Ferrari win is probably going to come soon and I'd love to see the odds on which one of them gets it.

For me, Leclerc looks stronger overall by a slim margin. He had some bumpy races early in the year but, since France, he has seemed firmly in control in a way that Vettel never did. Charles continues to get the short end of the stick when it comes to strategy and he certainly made his share of mistakes early in the year but he has been the quicker driver lately and that's what I'm paying the most attention to.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:28 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Germany should be a strong venue for Ferrari. There are a lot of flat out sections. We also have Spa and Monza coming up after the break. I think that first Ferrari win is probably going to come soon and I'd love to see the odds on which one of them gets it.

For me, Leclerc looks stronger overall by a slim margin. He had some bumpy races early in the year but, since France, he has seemed firmly in control in a way that Vettel never did. Charles continues to get the short end of the stick when it comes to strategy and he certainly made his share of mistakes early in the year but he has been the quicker driver lately and that's what I'm paying the most attention to.


Skybet odds for the win in Germany: Vettel 9-1 and Leclerc 10-1. Verstappen is also 9-1 out of interest.

I don't see anything other than Merc being fastest in Germany. You could be right about Spa and Monza though, although they will take some pain in sector 2 at Spa


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:14 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Germany should be a strong venue for Ferrari. There are a lot of flat out sections. We also have Spa and Monza coming up after the break. I think that first Ferrari win is probably going to come soon and I'd love to see the odds on which one of them gets it.

For me, Leclerc looks stronger overall by a slim margin. He had some bumpy races early in the year but, since France, he has seemed firmly in control in a way that Vettel never did. Charles continues to get the short end of the stick when it comes to strategy and he certainly made his share of mistakes early in the year but he has been the quicker driver lately and that's what I'm paying the most attention to.

Skybet odds for the win in Germany: Vettel 9-1 and Leclerc 10-1. Verstappen is also 9-1 out of interest.

I don't see anything other than Merc being fastest in Germany. You could be right about Spa and Monza though, although they will take some pain in sector 2 at Spa

I think Monza is almost a guaranteed Ferrari win, the way the cars are this year. Spa is a lot less certain, with some key low speed corners for Mercedes to make gains on.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:41 pm 
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One thing is clear; both of them lose out by being teammates. They will continue to lose out to teams that have one driver clearly superior to the other. Vettel and Leclerc step on each other's toes almost every race. Leclerc in particular has lost out quite a lot due to strategy and even Vettel has been compromised. Contrary to what the fans want to see; it does not help a team to have two drivers of a similar caliber.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:45 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
One thing is clear; both of them lose out by being teammates. They will continue to lose out to teams that have one driver clearly superior to the other. Vettel and Leclerc step on each other's toes almost every race. Leclerc in particular has lost out quite a lot due to strategy and even Vettel has been compromised. Contrary to what the fans want to see; it does not help a team to have two drivers of a similar caliber.


I agree but why would we care?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:16 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
One thing is clear; both of them lose out by being teammates. They will continue to lose out to teams that have one driver clearly superior to the other. Vettel and Leclerc step on each other's toes almost every race. Leclerc in particular has lost out quite a lot due to strategy and even Vettel has been compromised. Contrary to what the fans want to see; it does not help a team to have two drivers of a similar caliber.


I agree but why would we care?

Well you would care if you were a Ferrari fan and wanted to see them winning titles again. You would also care if you were a fan of either of their two drivers and wanted to see your favorite driver given the best possible chance to succeed. Being on the same team basically guarantees that neither of them will win the title without also having a dominant car.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:25 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
One thing is clear; both of them lose out by being teammates. They will continue to lose out to teams that have one driver clearly superior to the other. Vettel and Leclerc step on each other's toes almost every race. Leclerc in particular has lost out quite a lot due to strategy and even Vettel has been compromised. Contrary to what the fans want to see; it does not help a team to have two drivers of a similar caliber.

Vettel kind of brought it on himself with all the mistakes he's made these past 2 years after they gave him a comfortable teammate in Kimi.

However the strategy was given a WDC capable car that Vettel would be the preferred driver, with the car not being that good it doesn't really matter.

Next year could be a more of a problem if Ferrari do have a WDC capable car for winning that title but they sure would be strong in respect to winning the WCC title.

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Last edited by pokerman on Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:57 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
One thing is clear; both of them lose out by being teammates. They will continue to lose out to teams that have one driver clearly superior to the other. Vettel and Leclerc step on each other's toes almost every race. Leclerc in particular has lost out quite a lot due to strategy and even Vettel has been compromised. Contrary to what the fans want to see; it does not help a team to have two drivers of a similar caliber.


I agree but why would we care?

Well you would care if you were a Ferrari fan and wanted to see them winning titles again. You would also care if you were a fan of either of their two drivers and wanted to see your favorite driver given the best possible chance to succeed. Being on the same team basically guarantees that neither of them will win the title without also having a dominant car.


If you were a Ferrari fan you would be pleased it would increase your chances in the constructors championship though.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:31 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
One thing is clear; both of them lose out by being teammates. They will continue to lose out to teams that have one driver clearly superior to the other. Vettel and Leclerc step on each other's toes almost every race. Leclerc in particular has lost out quite a lot due to strategy and even Vettel has been compromised. Contrary to what the fans want to see; it does not help a team to have two drivers of a similar caliber.


I agree but why would we care?

Well you would care if you were a Ferrari fan and wanted to see them winning titles again. You would also care if you were a fan of either of their two drivers and wanted to see your favorite driver given the best possible chance to succeed. Being on the same team basically guarantees that neither of them will win the title without also having a dominant car.


Well, last season Ferrari fans had all of it: the best car, a clear number one driver (Vettel), a submissive and slower number two (Räikkönen). Just that Vettel blew it and they lost two world championships.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:12 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
One thing is clear; both of them lose out by being teammates. They will continue to lose out to teams that have one driver clearly superior to the other. Vettel and Leclerc step on each other's toes almost every race. Leclerc in particular has lost out quite a lot due to strategy and even Vettel has been compromised. Contrary to what the fans want to see; it does not help a team to have two drivers of a similar caliber.


I agree but why would we care?

Well you would care if you were a Ferrari fan and wanted to see them winning titles again. You would also care if you were a fan of either of their two drivers and wanted to see your favorite driver given the best possible chance to succeed. Being on the same team basically guarantees that neither of them will win the title without also having a dominant car.


If you were a Ferrari fan you would be pleased it would increase your chances in the constructors championship though.

This is a bit of a myth. It hurts your chances in the constructor's if you have one driver who is very poor but it does not hurt you to have one driver who is decidedly better than the other. Most constructor's championships are won that way. With two equally strong drivers you will have two points scorers but you will also have two guys who's strategies are compromised in the interest of fairness and potentially you will have on-track incidents between them.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:21 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
One thing is clear; both of them lose out by being teammates. They will continue to lose out to teams that have one driver clearly superior to the other. Vettel and Leclerc step on each other's toes almost every race. Leclerc in particular has lost out quite a lot due to strategy and even Vettel has been compromised. Contrary to what the fans want to see; it does not help a team to have two drivers of a similar caliber.


I agree but why would we care?

Well you would care if you were a Ferrari fan and wanted to see them winning titles again. You would also care if you were a fan of either of their two drivers and wanted to see your favorite driver given the best possible chance to succeed. Being on the same team basically guarantees that neither of them will win the title without also having a dominant car.


If you were a Ferrari fan you would be pleased it would increase your chances in the constructors championship though.

This is a bit of a myth. It hurts your chances in the constructor's if you have one driver who is very poor but it does not hurt you to have one driver who is decidedly better than the other. Most constructor's championships are won that way. With two equally strong drivers you will have two points scorers but you will also have two guys who's strategies are compromised in the interest of fairness and potentially you will have on-track incidents between them.


I think that is true only if you have the best car and you can rely on your weaker driver often coming second or you are fighting against another team with the same number 1 and number 2 set up and your second driver is better than there's.

Not many examples because of teams with closely competitive cars but contrasting driver setups but where there is having two good drivers was the better bet for the WCC. Red Bull beating Ferrari in 2010, Ferrari beating Mclaren in 2008 being the two most recent examples.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:52 am 
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The fact that leclerc is challenging vettel at all in his 1st season with Ferrari and only 2nd season in F1. It is (wrongly) often assumed that a driver should immediately be on his feet in a new team (I attribute this to Hamilton 07 performance, people are now looking for this) is a testament to his quality. When Verstappen joined ricciardo in '16 he couldn't touch him and got better and better over the next 2 seasons until he was clearly ahead. Expecting to see similar pattern with Leclerc in the next couple of years


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:55 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I'm going to go for...

Leclerc wins the qualifying battle, and is slightly ahead on points. I really feel Leclerc is the real deal, he's going to have the full support of Ferrari, and I see Seb as vulnerable.

Noooo freaking way!

If there are 2 things Vettel shines at, they're opening up a gap from the front and Qualifying!
Vettel will not only beat, but spank Leclerc in Qualy. In races Leclerc stands a chance of being close because of how tight things are likely going to be at the front which will result in contact and the kid might be perfectly lined up to swoop in and pick up the scraps. Outside of that Vettel will be Ferrari's top driver on merit.


currently 6 apiece after 12 races...so much for spanking :P


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:42 am 
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dpastern wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I'm going to go for...

Leclerc wins the qualifying battle, and is slightly ahead on points. I really feel Leclerc is the real deal, he's going to have the full support of Ferrari, and I see Seb as vulnerable.

Noooo freaking way!

If there are 2 things Vettel shines at, they're opening up a gap from the front and Qualifying!
Vettel will not only beat, but spank Leclerc in Qualy. In races Leclerc stands a chance of being close because of how tight things are likely going to be at the front which will result in contact and the kid might be perfectly lined up to swoop in and pick up the scraps. Outside of that Vettel will be Ferrari's top driver on merit.

currently 6 apiece after 12 races...so much for spanking :P

Yeah, I'm feeling pretty comfortable with the part about Leclerc winning the qualifying battle at this point. Being slightly ahead on points seems based largely on if he can cut out the little problem with crashing... :uhoh:

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:00 am 
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Exediron wrote:
dpastern wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I'm going to go for...

Leclerc wins the qualifying battle, and is slightly ahead on points. I really feel Leclerc is the real deal, he's going to have the full support of Ferrari, and I see Seb as vulnerable.

Noooo freaking way!

If there are 2 things Vettel shines at, they're opening up a gap from the front and Qualifying!
Vettel will not only beat, but spank Leclerc in Qualy. In races Leclerc stands a chance of being close because of how tight things are likely going to be at the front which will result in contact and the kid might be perfectly lined up to swoop in and pick up the scraps. Outside of that Vettel will be Ferrari's top driver on merit.

currently 6 apiece after 12 races...so much for spanking :P

Yeah, I'm feeling pretty comfortable with the part about Leclerc winning the qualifying battle at this point. Being slightly ahead on points seems based largely on if he can cut out the little problem with crashing... :uhoh:


Yea he does need to sort that out. If you look at what he did on Bottas on the first lap, I'm sure the majority of the time that will have resulted in a puncture on his left rear tyre. It was unnecessary as he was carrying way more speed than Bottas so he really didn't need to go off line to defend but he did anyway and defended too soon and could very likely have had to pit like Bottas did. And obviously a puncture will have meant he would have lost much more time on that lap than Bottas. And hopefully he will have learnt how to drive with a puncture. Still think the reasoning behind his retirement in Monaco was one of the most ridiculous of any driver this year. The manner of driving while he had a puncture was what caused it. On the shortest and slowest track of the year.

I find it odd, but I thought leclerc looked more of a clean driver when racing others last year. Also, he didn't force himself to retire once, unlike twice this year and crashing in qualifying. If anything, at this stage, I could quite possibly say he looked worse than last year. Which still isn't bad. But Vettel hasn't been great this year and he's still certainly doing better that Leclerc.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:23 am 
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Just wonder if he is testing limits such as what he can get away with, how fast he can go etc. In much the same way as we saw with Verstappen when he was finding his feet in the Red Bull.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:47 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Just wonder if he is testing limits such as what he can get away with, how fast he can go etc. In much the same way as we saw with Verstappen when he was finding his feet in the Red Bull.


I agree. We can criticise his mistakes and they are frustrating, but at least it shows he's going all out rather than driving within his limits an hoping to keep a drive in the sport that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:53 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Just wonder if he is testing limits such as what he can get away with, how fast he can go etc. In much the same way as we saw with Verstappen when he was finding his feet in the Red Bull.


I agree. We can criticise his mistakes and they are frustrating, but at least it shows he's going all out rather than driving within his limits an hoping to keep a drive in the sport that way.

So should bottas be getting some defence that he was trying in germany then that resulted in his first ever retirement by crashing out? The same in Hungary. He looked to be trying to be pretty defensive. Maybe he will learn from this and improve in that case?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:57 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Just wonder if he is testing limits such as what he can get away with, how fast he can go etc. In much the same way as we saw with Verstappen when he was finding his feet in the Red Bull.


I agree. We can criticise his mistakes and they are frustrating, but at least it shows he's going all out rather than driving within his limits an hoping to keep a drive in the sport that way.

So should bottas be getting some defence that he was trying in germany then that resulted in his first ever retirement by crashing out? The same in Hungary. He looked to be trying to be pretty defensive. Maybe he will learn from this and improve in that case?


Well, I didn't criticise him for Germany because in those situations, most drivers make mistakes and it's not especially under their control if they hit a wall or not after a spin. That said, he's been in F1 for something like 6 or 7 years I think, didn't bother to check so happy to be corrected, and therefore he has a lot more experience than Leclerc.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:07 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Just wonder if he is testing limits such as what he can get away with, how fast he can go etc. In much the same way as we saw with Verstappen when he was finding his feet in the Red Bull.


I agree. We can criticise his mistakes and they are frustrating, but at least it shows he's going all out rather than driving within his limits an hoping to keep a drive in the sport that way.

So should bottas be getting some defence that he was trying in germany then that resulted in his first ever retirement by crashing out? The same in Hungary. He looked to be trying to be pretty defensive. Maybe he will learn from this and improve in that case?


I think we can excuse a few mistakes from a driver in his second season going up against and comparing well to a 4xWDC team mate. Someone like Leclerc will be judged to a different standard to Bottas. Leclerc just needs to show potential speed at this stage.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:35 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Just wonder if he is testing limits such as what he can get away with, how fast he can go etc. In much the same way as we saw with Verstappen when he was finding his feet in the Red Bull.


I agree. We can criticise his mistakes and they are frustrating, but at least it shows he's going all out rather than driving within his limits an hoping to keep a drive in the sport that way.

So should bottas be getting some defence that he was trying in germany then that resulted in his first ever retirement by crashing out? The same in Hungary. He looked to be trying to be pretty defensive. Maybe he will learn from this and improve in that case?


Well, I didn't criticise him for Germany because in those situations, most drivers make mistakes and it's not especially under their control if they hit a wall or not after a spin. That said, he's been in F1 for something like 6 or 7 years I think, didn't bother to check so happy to be corrected, and therefore he has a lot more experience than Leclerc.


Well i brought this up before. 2014 was Bottas's 2nd season, and relative to the other cars, the williams was probably in a similar situation performance wise to the ferrari this year. And both Bottas and Leclerc are in their 2nd season. Bottas made nothing like the level of big mistakes over 2014 as leclerc has just in this half season. He managed to finish 4th in the standings that year And although Bottas is now very experienced, maybe the reason he has never made such big mistakes was because he wasn't aggressive enough in his earlier career? Even early in Bottas's career, he never had a crash bad enough to knock him out of a race. If Leclerc is trying to find this limits this year, maybe Bottas just didn't do it early enough. But it will perhaps help him? We will see later this year.

but from what we are seeing from Leclerc this year if we compare it to Bottas in 2014, I don't really see the evidence that leclerc is going to turn out better than Bottas. Unless people expected Bottas to turn out better than he has. We are basing Leclerc against Vettel who is just not as good as he used to be, and Leclerc isn't even this good yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:33 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Just wonder if he is testing limits such as what he can get away with, how fast he can go etc. In much the same way as we saw with Verstappen when he was finding his feet in the Red Bull.


I agree. We can criticise his mistakes and they are frustrating, but at least it shows he's going all out rather than driving within his limits an hoping to keep a drive in the sport that way.

So should bottas be getting some defence that he was trying in germany then that resulted in his first ever retirement by crashing out? The same in Hungary. He looked to be trying to be pretty defensive. Maybe he will learn from this and improve in that case?


Well, I didn't criticise him for Germany because in those situations, most drivers make mistakes and it's not especially under their control if they hit a wall or not after a spin. That said, he's been in F1 for something like 6 or 7 years I think, didn't bother to check so happy to be corrected, and therefore he has a lot more experience than Leclerc.


Well i brought this up before. 2014 was Bottas's 2nd season, and relative to the other cars, the williams was probably in a similar situation performance wise to the ferrari this year. And both Bottas and Leclerc are in their 2nd season. Bottas made nothing like the level of big mistakes over 2014 as leclerc has just in this half season. He managed to finish 4th in the standings that year And although Bottas is now very experienced, maybe the reason he has never made such big mistakes was because he wasn't aggressive enough in his earlier career? Even early in Bottas's career, he never had a crash bad enough to knock him out of a race. If Leclerc is trying to find this limits this year, maybe Bottas just didn't do it early enough. But it will perhaps help him? We will see later this year.

but from what we are seeing from Leclerc this year if we compare it to Bottas in 2014, I don't really see the evidence that leclerc is going to turn out better than Bottas. Unless people expected Bottas to turn out better than he has. We are basing Leclerc against Vettel who is just not as good as he used to be, and Leclerc isn't even this good yet.


Leclerc just needs to show speed at this point. If he's as fast as Vettel already then he's got a chance. In 2014 Bottas was basically as fast as Massa. It's easy to not make mistakes when you're driving (comparatively) slowly.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:47 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

I agree. We can criticise his mistakes and they are frustrating, but at least it shows he's going all out rather than driving within his limits an hoping to keep a drive in the sport that way.

So should bottas be getting some defence that he was trying in germany then that resulted in his first ever retirement by crashing out? The same in Hungary. He looked to be trying to be pretty defensive. Maybe he will learn from this and improve in that case?


Well, I didn't criticise him for Germany because in those situations, most drivers make mistakes and it's not especially under their control if they hit a wall or not after a spin. That said, he's been in F1 for something like 6 or 7 years I think, didn't bother to check so happy to be corrected, and therefore he has a lot more experience than Leclerc.


Well i brought this up before. 2014 was Bottas's 2nd season, and relative to the other cars, the williams was probably in a similar situation performance wise to the ferrari this year. And both Bottas and Leclerc are in their 2nd season. Bottas made nothing like the level of big mistakes over 2014 as leclerc has just in this half season. He managed to finish 4th in the standings that year And although Bottas is now very experienced, maybe the reason he has never made such big mistakes was because he wasn't aggressive enough in his earlier career? Even early in Bottas's career, he never had a crash bad enough to knock him out of a race. If Leclerc is trying to find this limits this year, maybe Bottas just didn't do it early enough. But it will perhaps help him? We will see later this year.

but from what we are seeing from Leclerc this year if we compare it to Bottas in 2014, I don't really see the evidence that leclerc is going to turn out better than Bottas. Unless people expected Bottas to turn out better than he has. We are basing Leclerc against Vettel who is just not as good as he used to be, and Leclerc isn't even this good yet.


Leclerc just needs to show speed at this point. If he's as fast as Vettel already then he's got a chance. In 2014 Bottas was basically as fast as Massa. It's easy to not make mistakes when you're driving (comparatively) slowly.


Yes, Vettel may be making mistakes over recent years, but there's no real evidence that I've seen to show that his outright lap times are slowing down. Leclerc is matching Vettel for speed and just needs to iron out the mistakes, something new drivers all have to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:24 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Yes, Vettel may be making mistakes over recent years, but there's no real evidence that I've seen to show that his outright lap times are slowing down. Leclerc is matching Vettel for speed and just needs to iron out the mistakes, something new drivers all have to do.

I think Vettel is the same driver he always was. He's always made mistakes when the pressure is on. The only thing that's changed is that he has an elite driver in terms of speed next to him rather than an aging Mark Webber or Kimi Raikkonen.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:47 pm 
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Does anyone understand why tired old slow Raikkonen is one of the best drivers this year?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:06 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Does anyone understand why tired old slow Raikkonen is one of the best drivers this year?

I think that Kimi is just happy this year. You can tell, he does not have the Ferrari politics, media focus or anything else to weigh him down. He just looks like a new driver, at 39 no less. What a joy to watch.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:14 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Does anyone understand why tired old slow Raikkonen is one of the best drivers this year?

One of the best because he's beating Giovinazzi?

Kimi is having a good season but how good is the Alfa, Sainz and Norris are apparently the 3rd and 6th best drivers, how good is the McLaren?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:38 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Does anyone understand why tired old slow Raikkonen is one of the best drivers this year?


Think it also has to do with the higher level required to drive at the top of the field. We’ve seen how Leclerc looked like a world beater at Sauber but now he’s lacking in the Ferrari though he does have pace. Bottas was one if not the best midfield driver before he went to merc and now here he is fighting for his seat. And again with Gasly... It’s just different at the top when racing guys like Hamilton, Verstappen, Vettel, all a higher caliber of drivers than what you see in the midfield. Raikkonen looks better now because of who he is racing against. Let’s see how Albon does. I’d say there’s reason to worry about him.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:56 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Does anyone understand why tired old slow Raikkonen is one of the best drivers this year?


Yes.
The Sauber-Alfa is one of the best cars outside the top3 and Giovinazzi is not one of the better drivers in F1.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:35 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Todd wrote:
Does anyone understand why tired old slow Raikkonen is one of the best drivers this year?

One of the best because he's beating Giovinazzi?

Kimi is having a good season but how good is the Alfa, Sainz and Norris are apparently the 3rd and 6th best drivers, how good is the McLaren?


Sainz is almost certainly driving the same as he's always been, a competent journeyman. There is no reason to think that he has found a tonne of pace and taken his driving to a different level that he wasn't capable of before. Therefore Norris is about the same as him and maybe has a ceiling slightly higher than Sainz but that's about it and he will almost certainly never become world champion.

Kimi is definitely driving the same as he was the last few years, which means that Giovinazzi is not up to scratch, but that is fine as Schumacher Jr. needs to find his way into the sport somehow and Giovinazzi will help enable that.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:39 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Sainz is almost certainly driving the same as he's always been, a competent journeyman. There is no reason to think that he has found a tonne of pace and taken his driving to a different level that he wasn't capable of before. Therefore Norris is about the same as him and maybe has a ceiling slightly higher than Sainz but that's about it and he will almost certainly never become world champion.

Norris is a 19-year old rookie. If you don't offer rookies a chance to improve, then clearly you think Max isn't world championship material either - he wasn't much faster than Sainz in his first season, and that was when Sainz was himself a rookie. Max actually lost that qualifying battle, whereas Norris is looking likely to win it.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:41 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Todd wrote:
Does anyone understand why tired old slow Raikkonen is one of the best drivers this year?


Think it also has to do with the higher level required to drive at the top of the field. We’ve seen how Leclerc looked like a world beater at Sauber but now he’s lacking in the Ferrari though he does have pace. Bottas was one if not the best midfield driver before he went to merc and now here he is fighting for his seat. And again with Gasly... It’s just different at the top when racing guys like Hamilton, Verstappen, Vettel, all a higher caliber of drivers than what you see in the midfield. Raikkonen looks better now because of who he is racing against. Let’s see how Albon does. I’d say there’s reason to worry about him.


This is also why there is such a large gap between the front five cars and the rest of the pack. Better quality drivers in better equipment which essentially leads to a doubling of advantages.

A Red Bull in the hands of Gasly looked fairly competitive with the midfield for instance, whereas Max has proven that the Red Bull has Mercedes beating potential.

If we put Verstappen and Hamilton in an Alfa Romeo and McLaren, and put Giovinazzi in a Mercedes while keeping Gasly in the Red Bull, then the four packages would be quite evenly matched overall I reckon. This helps show why drivers still do make a big difference to a car's results pace-wise, and this is good for Formula One.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:53 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Sainz is almost certainly driving the same as he's always been, a competent journeyman. There is no reason to think that he has found a tonne of pace and taken his driving to a different level that he wasn't capable of before. Therefore Norris is about the same as him and maybe has a ceiling slightly higher than Sainz but that's about it and he will almost certainly never become world champion.

Norris is a 19-year old rookie. If you don't offer rookies a chance to improve, then clearly you think Max isn't world championship material either - he wasn't much faster than Sainz in his first season, and that was when Sainz was himself a rookie. Max actually lost that qualifying battle, whereas Norris is looking likely to win it.


Max crushed Sainz in race results, grabbing two and a half times as many points as him in 2015, (49 vs 18). Qualifying is irrelevant if you can't stay ahead on race day. I remember thinking in Australia 2015 that Max looked like a star. Sainz never gave me this feeling or impression at any point in that season.

So no, it's not the same.

A star forces your attention, an average driver doesn't. Norris hasn't made me sit up and pay attention to him yet so I don't believe he will make it. I have watched Formula One for almost 30 years now and I know how the stars emerge and I know how they don't. You can spot the top performers even if you are watching the race with your eyes squinted. You don't need to look carefully to see what they are doing, it is just so apparent.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:15 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Todd wrote:
Does anyone understand why tired old slow Raikkonen is one of the best drivers this year?

One of the best because he's beating Giovinazzi?

Kimi is having a good season but how good is the Alfa, Sainz and Norris are apparently the 3rd and 6th best drivers, how good is the McLaren?


Sainz is almost certainly driving the same as he's always been, a competent journeyman. There is no reason to think that he has found a tonne of pace and taken his driving to a different level that he wasn't capable of before. Therefore Norris is about the same as him and maybe has a ceiling slightly higher than Sainz but that's about it and he will almost certainly never become world champion.

Kimi is definitely driving the same as he was the last few years, which means that Giovinazzi is not up to scratch, but that is fine as Schumacher Jr. needs to find his way into the sport somehow and Giovinazzi will help enable that.


Do you know how rare it is for rookies to outscore experienced team mates?

Only two on the current grid managed that.


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