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How will Vettel/Leclerc Compare
Vettel will win by a mile 19%  19%  [ 18 ]
Vettel will win but it will be close 48%  48%  [ 45 ]
Leclerc will win but it will be close 30%  30%  [ 28 ]
Leclerc will win by a mile 3%  3%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 94
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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:50 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.

I think it's entirely possible that Hamilton has finally reached the stage in his career where his outright single lap pace is just beginning to diminish. That might be a premature statement and it might just be that this was a slightly down year for him in qualifying but Valteri was generally more competitive on Saturdays this year than he has been in the past and, if I recall correctly, 2003 was about the time I first started to feel like Michael might be on the down-swing too (he was also 34 that year). I'd say 2018 was Hamilton at the peak of his powers and, IMO, he hasn't quite matched that level overall this year.

Oddly, somehow 33 seems to be the age that a lot of the legendary drivers reached their absolute peak. Was Michael ever better than 2002? Was Senna ever better than 1993?

Senna poled every race he took part in the following season in a slower car than what Schumacher had, qualifying is not lineal, there can be ebbs and flows, I think it's just not been a strong year for Hamilton and we're merely talking about him being down about 0.04s, that's how finite it can be and the kind of difference it can make.


Well, Hamilton has still clearly bested Bottas in qualifying again this year. A lot of his best efforts did come during a period where it was extremely hard for Mercedes to get pole, not that I'm disagreeing with your point btw. When Leclerc was on fire, Hamilton was also often on fire, but in a slower car.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:51 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Back on topic: one thing I would say is that this pairing is not really working. They are too close to each other in performance and they constantly step on each other's toes. There are too many races where the team has failed to maximize their haul. They will be together again in 2020 but, barring a radical change to the picture, I don't think Ferrari should continue with this lineup beyond that. I think Keeping Charles and replacing Seb is what makes sense here.


Who would you replace Seb with, out of interest?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:56 pm 
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Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Back on topic: one thing I would say is that this pairing is not really working. They are too close to each other in performance and they constantly step on each other's toes. There are too many races where the team has failed to maximize their haul. They will be together again in 2020 but, barring a radical change to the picture, I don't think Ferrari should continue with this lineup beyond that. I think Keeping Charles and replacing Seb is what makes sense here.


Who would you replace Seb with, out of interest?

Someone young? Leclerc generally seems to be showing least as much pace and maturity as Vettel (if not quite a bit more at times). Making him defacto team leader and bumping someone promising up would make as much sense as they did when they did the same with Leclerc himself.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:17 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Back on topic: one thing I would say is that this pairing is not really working. They are too close to each other in performance and they constantly step on each other's toes. There are too many races where the team has failed to maximize their haul. They will be together again in 2020 but, barring a radical change to the picture, I don't think Ferrari should continue with this lineup beyond that. I think Keeping Charles and replacing Seb is what makes sense here.


The point is though that when the pressure is on Vettel just seems to become petulant. Do Ferrari want another season where every 5th or 6th race they have 'a moment'.

Vettel will decide Ferrari's future as Ferrari won't turn on him but it is getting embarrassing. That little bump just put Verstappen in P3 of the WDC!


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:24 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Back on topic: one thing I would say is that this pairing is not really working. They are too close to each other in performance and they constantly step on each other's toes. There are too many races where the team has failed to maximize their haul. They will be together again in 2020 but, barring a radical change to the picture, I don't think Ferrari should continue with this lineup beyond that. I think Keeping Charles and replacing Seb is what makes sense here.


Blimey, Ferrari can't win. I read for years and years that they have a blatant No.1 driver and that's a bad thing that other teams wouldn't do. Finally, they have two equally quick drivers and let them race and now I'm told this is no good!!!!!!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:31 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Back on topic: one thing I would say is that this pairing is not really working. They are too close to each other in performance and they constantly step on each other's toes. There are too many races where the team has failed to maximize their haul. They will be together again in 2020 but, barring a radical change to the picture, I don't think Ferrari should continue with this lineup beyond that. I think Keeping Charles and replacing Seb is what makes sense here.


The point is though that when the pressure is on Vettel just seems to become petulant. Do Ferrari want another season where every 5th or 6th race they have 'a moment'.

Vettel will decide Ferrari's future as Ferrari won't turn on him but it is getting embarrassing. That little bump just put Verstappen in P3 of the WDC!


I also have the impression that Binotto is too weak to bring Vettel on (team) path. Vettel really is Ferrari's biggest problem with the number of races he cost Ferrari in the last couple of years. And now that he has a competitive teammate, it is getting even worse. A 4xWDC being such a disgrace - incredible.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:50 pm 
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Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Back on topic: one thing I would say is that this pairing is not really working. They are too close to each other in performance and they constantly step on each other's toes. There are too many races where the team has failed to maximize their haul. They will be together again in 2020 but, barring a radical change to the picture, I don't think Ferrari should continue with this lineup beyond that. I think Keeping Charles and replacing Seb is what makes sense here.


Who would you replace Seb with, out of interest?

I think it's tempting to say Verstappen but, with Leclerc, I don't think that would be wise. I think probably the best option that they have is to go with someone like Bottas or perhaps Hulkenberg. If you want more fireworks, there's always Ricciardo but I think they need a fast, experienced driver in that second seat but one that is not quite on par with Charles.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:52 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Back on topic: one thing I would say is that this pairing is not really working. They are too close to each other in performance and they constantly step on each other's toes. There are too many races where the team has failed to maximize their haul. They will be together again in 2020 but, barring a radical change to the picture, I don't think Ferrari should continue with this lineup beyond that. I think Keeping Charles and replacing Seb is what makes sense here.


Blimey, Ferrari can't win. I read for years and years that they have a blatant No.1 driver and that's a bad thing that other teams wouldn't do. Finally, they have two equally quick drivers and let them race and now I'm told this is no good!!!!!!!!!!

It's not about having a no. 1. I think the complaints from recent years (especially years like 2015 and 2017) were that Kimi wasn't even close to getting the most out of the car at times and that he was hurting the team. In 2018, things changed though and it became a situation where Vettel was hurting the team. That has continued this year IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:57 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Back on topic: one thing I would say is that this pairing is not really working. They are too close to each other in performance and they constantly step on each other's toes. There are too many races where the team has failed to maximize their haul. They will be together again in 2020 but, barring a radical change to the picture, I don't think Ferrari should continue with this lineup beyond that. I think Keeping Charles and replacing Seb is what makes sense here.


Blimey, Ferrari can't win. I read for years and years that they have a blatant No.1 driver and that's a bad thing that other teams wouldn't do. Finally, they have two equally quick drivers and let them race and now I'm told this is no good!!!!!!!!!!

It's not about having a no. 1. I think the complaints from recent years (especially years like 2015 and 2017) were that Kimi wasn't even close to getting the most out of the car at times and that he was hurting the team. In 2018, things changed though and it became a situation where Vettel was hurting the team. That has continued this year IMO.


I've been reading and listening to the 'Ferrari No. 1' issue since 1996.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:03 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Back on topic: one thing I would say is that this pairing is not really working. They are too close to each other in performance and they constantly step on each other's toes. There are too many races where the team has failed to maximize their haul. They will be together again in 2020 but, barring a radical change to the picture, I don't think Ferrari should continue with this lineup beyond that. I think Keeping Charles and replacing Seb is what makes sense here.


Blimey, Ferrari can't win. I read for years and years that they have a blatant No.1 driver and that's a bad thing that other teams wouldn't do. Finally, they have two equally quick drivers and let them race and now I'm told this is no good!!!!!!!!!!

It's not about having a no. 1. I think the complaints from recent years (especially years like 2015 and 2017) were that Kimi wasn't even close to getting the most out of the car at times and that he was hurting the team. In 2018, things changed though and it became a situation where Vettel was hurting the team. That has continued this year IMO.


I've been reading and listening to the 'Ferrari No. 1' issue since 1996.

That's a little different though. I believe you are referring to baked-in status among drivers; where one driver cannot actually compete with the other. That's a separate topic from having two really strong drivers of similar caliber.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:46 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Back on topic: one thing I would say is that this pairing is not really working. They are too close to each other in performance and they constantly step on each other's toes. There are too many races where the team has failed to maximize their haul. They will be together again in 2020 but, barring a radical change to the picture, I don't think Ferrari should continue with this lineup beyond that. I think Keeping Charles and replacing Seb is what makes sense here.


Maybe qualifying, but race pace Vettel is still faster than Leclerc.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:39 am 
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It was no Monza squeeze. Seb was ahead, unlike Hamilton who was squeezed and kept behind.

The problem was Seb turned in on Leclerc, taking the usual line which he shouldn't have as Leclerc was at his rear wheel.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:13 am 
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trento wrote:
It was no Monza squeeze. Seb was ahead, unlike Hamilton who was squeezed and kept behind.

The problem was Seb turned in on Leclerc, taking the usual line which he shouldn't have as Leclerc was at his rear wheel.

Out of three, not into four.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:58 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Vettel had the pace over Charles again. SC brought Charles back with fresh tyres. But still Vettel had a good run on him and was going to regain his place. It was unfortunate that his rear tyre touched. It was a racing incident. I do not think Vettel cares too much but Charles is the one who said couple of times that he wants to be number1 and Ferrari will make the final call :uhoh:

If Ferrari has to choose either one I think they will take Charles unless he has a bad year in 2020. Simply because he is young. Vettel may not be driving at his best but still can beat Charles. Would like to see him in RBR in relaxed environment. Max probably will like to go to Mercedes if next year does not go well for RBR. Max, Vettel, Hamilton do not have contract for 2021 so let us see what happens.


Was Vettel really quicker? Leclerc started much further back and was on a different strategy. Leclerc got past at turn 1 and then Vettel wasnt far behind with slipstream and DRS heading towards turn 4. At that stage on fhe race it looked like Vettel was holding up Leclerc.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:49 am 
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Vettel was clearly upset at being overtaken round the outside by first Hamilton then Leclerc, we have seen that he doesn't like to get passed in that way.
Hamilton actually had the very same response to being passed by Verstappen and also ended up taking someone out.

What is galling though is Vettel acts like it was an accident and fronts up yet Hamilton says 'I messed up' and apologises. Says a lot in my view.

Ferrari management are looking weaker by the day, they will let this continue to slide. Forget winning a WDC or WCC they can't even close out 3rd.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:30 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
trento wrote:
It was no Monza squeeze. Seb was ahead, unlike Hamilton who was squeezed and kept behind.

The problem was Seb turned in on Leclerc, taking the usual line which he shouldn't have as Leclerc was at his rear wheel.

Out of three, not into four.


even so, it was very different compared to the Monza squeeze which was at high speed slowing down for the corner and a much tighter squeeze for Lewis too.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:43 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:

... Performs in a suffocating blanket of "extremely quick".

Indeed he's the next big Champion after Hamilton.


Only if he is driving a Ferrari or a Mercedes in my view.


And back in 2008 we would all have thought Vettel would need to be in a Mclaren or Ferrari to win multiple championships. They haven't won a championship since between them.

Admittedly we are now stuck in a period of unprecedented predictability and stability but things can and do change. Verstappen has time on his side. He's still younger than Hamilton was when he made his debut.


If all GP's are at altitude then Max and Red Bull will win for sure.

If only it was a simple as that? :)

Other teams/engine manufacturers would then change their designs to suit.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:02 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Back on topic: one thing I would say is that this pairing is not really working. They are too close to each other in performance and they constantly step on each other's toes. There are too many races where the team has failed to maximize their haul. They will be together again in 2020 but, barring a radical change to the picture, I don't think Ferrari should continue with this lineup beyond that. I think Keeping Charles and replacing Seb is what makes sense here.

Well it came about because even with the ideal #1, #2 set up Vettel was not delivering, Vettel's in a strange position were he no longer seems to be a good #1 driver well not for a WDC, and he's too good to be a #2 driver which can cause problems.

Leclerc himself I feel needs to find a little more speed for Ferrari to feel totally comfortable in building the team around him, if not then Ricciardo would be a good signing he tends to gel well within teams and was solid at Red Bull.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:14 pm 
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Invade wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Charles will win this battle as he is 19pts ahead with 2 races to go. But honestly Vettel has had some horrible races like crashing into Max in Silverstone, spin in Monza was embarrassing as well. He has had more DNF as well. I also think Vettel and Hamilton who are usually one of the best in qualifying have had pretty average this year.

Hamilton is a bit below his best in qualifying but Vettel is simply up against a better driver like he was against Ricciardo, as a measure of Kimi he's presently hardly any quicker than Giovinazzi in qualifying.

I think it's entirely possible that Hamilton has finally reached the stage in his career where his outright single lap pace is just beginning to diminish. That might be a premature statement and it might just be that this was a slightly down year for him in qualifying but Valteri was generally more competitive on Saturdays this year than he has been in the past and, if I recall correctly, 2003 was about the time I first started to feel like Michael might be on the down-swing too (he was also 34 that year). I'd say 2018 was Hamilton at the peak of his powers and, IMO, he hasn't quite matched that level overall this year.

Oddly, somehow 33 seems to be the age that a lot of the legendary drivers reached their absolute peak. Was Michael ever better than 2002? Was Senna ever better than 1993?

Senna poled every race he took part in the following season in a slower car than what Schumacher had, qualifying is not lineal, there can be ebbs and flows, I think it's just not been a strong year for Hamilton and we're merely talking about him being down about 0.04s, that's how finite it can be and the kind of difference it can make.


Well, Hamilton has still clearly bested Bottas in qualifying again this year. A lot of his best efforts did come during a period where it was extremely hard for Mercedes to get pole, not that I'm disagreeing with your point btw. When Leclerc was on fire, Hamilton was also often on fire, but in a slower car.

Its a bit of both, Hamilton being a little bit down on his normal level, something that James Allison has also attested to, and the Ferrari being a rocketship in qualifying after the summer break.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:39 pm 
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Wao, have not logged on for some time, I click on the Vettel Leclerc thread and for two pages all I read is stuff about Hamilton.........how is it possible that every thread on this site ends up being a Hamilton Thread!!?? Amazing!!


Anyhow, I think Charles is at fault here not Vettel. The red mist fell into Charles. He need not be that close to Vettels car, I think he remained close to get a bit of side draft and deny Vettel a clean fast entry to the next curve by staying inside and close. That backfired when Vettel tried to move away from the track edge. The pass was done basically, Charles should have given more space.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:47 pm 
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PRFAN wrote:
Wao, have not logged on for some time, I click on the Vettel Leclerc thread and for two pages all I read is stuff about Hamilton.........how is it possible that every thread on this site ends up being a Hamilton Thread!!?? Amazing!!


Anyhow, I think Charles is at fault here not Vettel. The red mist fell into Charles. He need not be that close to Vettels car, I think he remained close to get a bit of side draft and deny Vettel a clean fast entry to the next curve by staying inside and close. That backfired when Vettel tried to move away from the track edge. The pass was done basically, Charles should have given more space.

On this page 11 posts on topic and 2 about Hamilton so not exactly a derail.

Leclerc was close to Vettel's car because Vettel kept steering towards Leclerc's car, Leclerc himself left Vettel plenty of room until Vettel started turning left.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:07 pm 
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The latest incident in Brazil highlights why the team needs to set better rules of engagement between Vettel and Leclerc, and then manage more proactively. Where Vettel has led Leclair for the entire race, by lap 66 of 71, on the second last race of the season, why are they fighting with each other for position. What's Leclair doing passing Vettel? Vettel should not have to defend against his own team mate at such a late stage of the race, especially when he has another car in front of him so close when they were backed up by a safety car. The team should be giving Vettel maximum power, and then a window to close and pass the car in front. If that can't happen, team has to assess if the car behind has a better chance because he is on fresher tires. But if Vettel is trying to cool his car down and get ready to mount one last attack at the car in front, what's his team mate doing going for a pass then, he should be blocking for his team mate.

Now, on the other hand if Ferrari is content with their points in the Constructors championship, and its just the two drivers that are competing at the end of the year to see who is going beat the other in the drivers championship, then Ferrari should make it clear what the rules are and limits of engagement are.

What I see in Ferrari now are two selfish drivers that don't have a clear set of rules for engagement without a strong enough leadership at the top to define what they are trying to achieve at each race.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:12 am 
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The way I understand it based on Binotto's post-race interview, there were clear rules of engagement: both drivers knew that with the WCC sealed, they were clear to fight.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:45 am 
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Exediron wrote:
The way I understand it based on Binotto's post-race interview, there were clear rules of engagement: both drivers knew that with the WCC sealed, they were clear to fight.

Honestly I don’t understand the big deal at all. Their final WCC position is sealed, and they were fighting over 4th and 5th place in the race.

Obviously it should always be considered a big deal when teammates of a big team crash, but this one is as inconsequential as they get.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:01 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Honestly I don’t understand the big deal at all. Their final WCC position is sealed, and they were fighting over 4th and 5th place in the race.
Obviously it should always be considered a big deal when teammates of a big team crash, but this one is as inconsequential as they get.



Longnose wrote:
Vettel should not have to defend against his own team mate at such a late stage of the race, especially when he has another car in front of him so close when they were backed up by a safety car. The team should be giving Vettel maximum power, and then a window to close and pass the car in front. If that can't happen, team has to assess if the car behind has a better chance because he is on fresher tires.


These guys are not Uber drivers completing a shift they are Grand Prix drivers with massive egos and just happen to be amongst the fastest in the world. It matters who is fastest in the team, their existence in the sport is short depends on it.

There should be no contrived results, no irrelevant races one championship has gone, set yourself up for next year. If there are no team orders applicable go for it.

The point for Ferrari is not an absence of team orders but an absence of team. They have made numerous strategic errors, driving errors perhaps even moral errors. They seem to believe they have a divine right to win. The problem is much bigger than two drivers clashing on the circuit and they are doing very little to resolve it. Of the last few years they should have nicked one championship but the resolve is not there, they won't change though and neither will their success rate change as a result.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:14 pm 
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Yeah Ferrari are damned if they do damned if they don't when it comes to team orders they genuinely get slated whatever their approach


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:11 pm 
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DeepPyro69 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
The criteria was "a list of drivers he has accidentally (or not) hit where he was at fault (at least partially)". Why would incidents from 2011 not count? I'm baffled.


I am trying to distinguish between 'fault' and a pure 'racing incident'

In 2011, Hamilton was at fault twice (Monaco & Singapore), Massa once (Japan). The other two I would say were racing.

The point is this that these were 8 years ago, and that the Albon incident (definitely Hamilton fault) is an absolute rarity, to which he held up his hands straight away and apologised.

Vettel in contrast has a long list of these incidents and is still having multiple issues this year. And he is still denying he has a problem :?

I would go further and say Hamilton/ Albon was misjudging a gap and being merely overenthusiastic, where the Vettel/ Leclerc incident was petulantly cutting across at high speed when he hadn't cleared his opponent and just plain stupid


When you see the on-board from Leclerc steering right into Vettel you might change your mind.

Also when Vettel misjudged against Max at Suzuka last year no one said he misjudged it.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:28 pm 
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Posts: 11
FormulaFun wrote:
Yeah Ferrari are damned if they do damned if they don't when it comes to team orders they genuinely get slated whatever their approach


Well they don’t have as much experience with ‘equal drivers’ as teams such as Mercedes, and the Rosberg/ Hamilton fallout got some flack from both sides of the press. Mind you, that was for the title, not 3rd (whoops 4th)

Brazil was both their faults, but Vettel mostly.

Leclerc had better tyres and was entitled to try the overtake (maybe he should have used the main straight to close up and then overtaken on the back straight but that’s another issue)
Down the back straight he gave ‘just’ enough space, but maybe should have given more (especially as it was his team mate)

But that doesn’t change the fact that Vettel (again) seems to think his opponents disappear once they clear his cockpit and it shows a worrying lack of judgement when he is in the thick of it. It was an almost carbon copy of Webber Turkey 2010.

Or more worryingly, he knew Leclerc was there and was trying to assert himself in a red mist moment.

Either way, I’d say at least 80% Vettels fault


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:52 pm 
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Rockie wrote:

When you see the on-board from Leclerc steering right into Vettel you might change your mind


Sorry what?, who moved across the track 😂

https://youtu.be/dKYB4fDz5Vc

‪https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2019/11/Sebastian_Vettel__Leclerc_left_enough_room_before_clash.html

B


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:47 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1998
DeepPyro69 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Yeah Ferrari are damned if they do damned if they don't when it comes to team orders they genuinely get slated whatever their approach


Well they don’t have as much experience with ‘equal drivers’ as teams such as Mercedes, and the Rosberg/ Hamilton fallout got some flack from both sides of the press. Mind you, that was for the title, not 3rd (whoops 4th)

Brazil was both their faults, but Vettel mostly.

Leclerc had better tyres and was entitled to try the overtake (maybe he should have used the main straight to close up and then overtaken on the back straight but that’s another issue)
Down the back straight he gave ‘just’ enough space, but maybe should have given more (especially as it was his team mate)

But that doesn’t change the fact that Vettel (again) seems to think his opponents disappear once they clear his cockpit and it shows a worrying lack of judgement when he is in the thick of it. It was an almost carbon copy of Webber Turkey 2010.

Or more worryingly, he knew Leclerc was there and was trying to assert himself in a red mist moment.

Either way, I’d say at least 80% Vettels fault


Ignoring Leclerc's on-board to come to this conclusion as you say they were on a straight why was he turning right on a straight?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1998
DeepPyro69 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

When you see the on-board from Leclerc steering right into Vettel you might change your mind


Sorry what?, who moved across the track 😂

https://youtu.be/dKYB4fDz5Vc

‪https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2019/11/Sebastian_Vettel__Leclerc_left_enough_room_before_clash.html

B


You are welcome.

http://www.kepfeltoltes.eu/images/2019/11/18/678Screenshot_2019_11_18_.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:55 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33376
Rockie wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Yeah Ferrari are damned if they do damned if they don't when it comes to team orders they genuinely get slated whatever their approach


Well they don’t have as much experience with ‘equal drivers’ as teams such as Mercedes, and the Rosberg/ Hamilton fallout got some flack from both sides of the press. Mind you, that was for the title, not 3rd (whoops 4th)

Brazil was both their faults, but Vettel mostly.

Leclerc had better tyres and was entitled to try the overtake (maybe he should have used the main straight to close up and then overtaken on the back straight but that’s another issue)
Down the back straight he gave ‘just’ enough space, but maybe should have given more (especially as it was his team mate)

But that doesn’t change the fact that Vettel (again) seems to think his opponents disappear once they clear his cockpit and it shows a worrying lack of judgement when he is in the thick of it. It was an almost carbon copy of Webber Turkey 2010.

Or more worryingly, he knew Leclerc was there and was trying to assert himself in a red mist moment.

Either way, I’d say at least 80% Vettels fault


Ignoring Leclerc's on-board to come to this conclusion as you say they were on a straight why was he turning right on a straight?

The stills don't seem to tell the truth, Leclerc's car suffered a lot of buffering from the proximity of Vettel's car and his steering was twitching to the left and right, he doesn't seem to actually turn right.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:59 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33376
Rockie wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

When you see the on-board from Leclerc steering right into Vettel you might change your mind


Sorry what?, who moved across the track 😂

https://youtu.be/dKYB4fDz5Vc

‪https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2019/11/Sebastian_Vettel__Leclerc_left_enough_room_before_clash.html

B


You are welcome.

http://www.kepfeltoltes.eu/images/2019/11/18/678Screenshot_2019_11_18_.jpg

Old news now, stills don't always tell the truth, watch the actually onboard and see the steering wheel twitching left and right from the proximity of Vettel's car.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:07 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1998
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Yeah Ferrari are damned if they do damned if they don't when it comes to team orders they genuinely get slated whatever their approach


Well they don’t have as much experience with ‘equal drivers’ as teams such as Mercedes, and the Rosberg/ Hamilton fallout got some flack from both sides of the press. Mind you, that was for the title, not 3rd (whoops 4th)

Brazil was both their faults, but Vettel mostly.

Leclerc had better tyres and was entitled to try the overtake (maybe he should have used the main straight to close up and then overtaken on the back straight but that’s another issue)
Down the back straight he gave ‘just’ enough space, but maybe should have given more (especially as it was his team mate)

But that doesn’t change the fact that Vettel (again) seems to think his opponents disappear once they clear his cockpit and it shows a worrying lack of judgement when he is in the thick of it. It was an almost carbon copy of Webber Turkey 2010.

Or more worryingly, he knew Leclerc was there and was trying to assert himself in a red mist moment.

Either way, I’d say at least 80% Vettels fault


Ignoring Leclerc's on-board to come to this conclusion as you say they were on a straight why was he turning right on a straight?

The stills don't seem to tell the truth, Leclerc's car suffered a lot of buffering from the proximity of Vettel's car and his steering was twitching to the left and right, he doesn't seem to actually turn right.


How exactly?

Should Vettel be the one to ensure that Leclerc has proper control of his car?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:10 pm 
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Interlagos is a bumpy track. If you watch the onboard you see the the steering wheel twitch left and right all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16446
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Yeah Ferrari are damned if they do damned if they don't when it comes to team orders they genuinely get slated whatever their approach


Well they don’t have as much experience with ‘equal drivers’ as teams such as Mercedes, and the Rosberg/ Hamilton fallout got some flack from both sides of the press. Mind you, that was for the title, not 3rd (whoops 4th)

Brazil was both their faults, but Vettel mostly.

Leclerc had better tyres and was entitled to try the overtake (maybe he should have used the main straight to close up and then overtaken on the back straight but that’s another issue)
Down the back straight he gave ‘just’ enough space, but maybe should have given more (especially as it was his team mate)

But that doesn’t change the fact that Vettel (again) seems to think his opponents disappear once they clear his cockpit and it shows a worrying lack of judgement when he is in the thick of it. It was an almost carbon copy of Webber Turkey 2010.

Or more worryingly, he knew Leclerc was there and was trying to assert himself in a red mist moment.

Either way, I’d say at least 80% Vettels fault


Ignoring Leclerc's on-board to come to this conclusion as you say they were on a straight why was he turning right on a straight?

The stills don't seem to tell the truth, Leclerc's car suffered a lot of buffering from the proximity of Vettel's car and his steering was twitching to the left and right, he doesn't seem to actually turn right.


How exactly?

Should Vettel be the one to ensure that Leclerc has proper control of his car?


Vettel shouldn't be coming across the track onto a bit of it that's already occupied by Leclerc.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:11 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1998
mikeyg123 wrote:

Vettel shouldn't be coming across the track onto a bit of it that's already occupied by Leclerc.


So if we take this back to Canada then will you say Hamilton was going into a space already occupied by Vettel?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1575
Location: UK
Rockie wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

When you see the on-board from Leclerc steering right into Vettel you might change your mind


Sorry what?, who moved across the track 😂

https://youtu.be/dKYB4fDz5Vc

‪https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2019/11/Sebastian_Vettel__Leclerc_left_enough_room_before_clash.html

B


You are welcome.

http://www.kepfeltoltes.eu/images/2019/11/18/678Screenshot_2019_11_18_.jpg


Is this from a video, be interesting to see the sequence before and the sequence after to get the feel for the incident?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:42 pm 
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Posts: 6977
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Vettel shouldn't be coming across the track onto a bit of it that's already occupied by Leclerc.


So if we take this back to Canada then will you say Hamilton was going into a space already occupied by Vettel?

No, that was yet another case of Vettel clumsily moving across the track (and after running off the circuit as well).


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:11 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16446
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Vettel shouldn't be coming across the track onto a bit of it that's already occupied by Leclerc.


So if we take this back to Canada then will you say Hamilton was going into a space already occupied by Vettel?


That is an awful comparison and makes no sense however I don't think Vettel should have received a penalty in Canada. I loudly defended him at the time.


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