planetf1.com

It is currently Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:11 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic

How will Vettel/Leclerc Compare
Vettel will win by a mile 19%  19%  [ 18 ]
Vettel will win but it will be close 48%  48%  [ 45 ]
Leclerc will win but it will be close 30%  30%  [ 28 ]
Leclerc will win by a mile 3%  3%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 94
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1569
Location: UK
Very clear in this front-on video, Vettel is moving into Leclerc, no sign of Leclerc turning in on Vettel.



Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:41 pm
Posts: 11
Option or Prime wrote:
Rockie wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:


Is this from a video, be interesting to see the sequence before and the sequence after to get the feel for the incident?


You’re welcome too

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b60 ... wdzm8u.png

As you can see, Leclerc is trying to steer away from Vettel, so Vettel is trying to hit him! ;) :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1998
DeepPyro69 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Rockie wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:


Is this from a video, be interesting to see the sequence before and the sequence after to get the feel for the incident?


You’re welcome too

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b60 ... wdzm8u.png

As you can see, Leclerc is trying to steer away from Vettel, so Vettel is trying to hit him! ;) :lol:


Lol try again or harder!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:41 pm
Posts: 11
Rockie wrote:
How exactly?

Should Vettel be the one to ensure that Leclerc has proper control of his car?


Well this still shows Leclerc is trying to steer away from Vettel, so Vettel is trying to hit him! ;) :lol:

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b60 ... wdzm8u.png


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 3506
DeepPyro69 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
How exactly?

Should Vettel be the one to ensure that Leclerc has proper control of his car?


Well this still shows Leclerc is trying to steer away from Vettel, so Vettel is trying to hit him! ;) :lol:

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b60 ... wdzm8u.png


:lol:

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Posts: 3311
Location: UK
FormulaFun wrote:
Yeah Ferrari are damned if they do damned if they don't when it comes to team orders they genuinely get slated whatever their approach

Indeed. Nothing wrong with Ferrari letting their drivers race each other, they should be commended for it. You'd hope that two drivers in the same team would be able to race each other without colliding when there is no championship at stake.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6771
Location: Nebraska, USA
j man wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Yeah Ferrari are damned if they do damned if they don't when it comes to team orders they genuinely get slated whatever their approach

Indeed. Nothing wrong with Ferrari letting their drivers race each other, they should be commended for it. You'd hope that two drivers in the same team would be able to race each other without colliding when there is no championship at stake.

Cr@p happens. I seem remember other examples of teammates coming together. Obviouly , it is best for the team that they don't, but they are competitors as well.

As has been pointed out a couple of times on this page, Ferrari is damned if they do damned if they don't with some here. Have a #1 not fair to the other driver and used to discredit the "#1" . Have two top drivers, it doesn't work. Use team orders= cheating...don't use them and they should have. Let a teammate through and you are a lapdog, race the teammate and you are the fool.

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:54 am
Posts: 603
Blake wrote:
j man wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Yeah Ferrari are damned if they do damned if they don't when it comes to team orders they genuinely get slated whatever their approach

Indeed. Nothing wrong with Ferrari letting their drivers race each other, they should be commended for it. You'd hope that two drivers in the same team would be able to race each other without colliding when there is no championship at stake.

Cr@p happens. I seem remember other examples of teammates coming together. Obviouly , it is best for the team that they don't, but they are competitors as well.

As has been pointed out a couple of times on this page, Ferrari is damned if they do damned if they don't with some here. Have a #1 not fair to the other driver and used to discredit the "#1" . Have two top drivers, it doesn't work. Use team orders= cheating...don't use them and they should have. Let a teammate through and you are a lapdog, race the teammate and you are the fool.


This is way I say they both carry the same responsibility and I would even go to say this is 60% Charles 40% Vettel.

Charles passed Vettel with a nice move and then got immediately passed again. So Charles went from an offensive mindset to a defensive one and as he said got surprised by the move on the outside from Seb when he even said he was expecting an inside move. You would think that Charles will go in the offensive again but he stayed deffensive and this is in my opinion a key factor. How do you stay deffensive, how you prevent a completed pass? You stay as close as possible to the car in front to allow a side draft effect and to take away a free entree to the next corner just s he did. So now Vettel is in his mirrors and switch from offense to deffense, and how you deffend a pass?? You take the center of the track!!!!

Charles had a better visual understanding of what is happening, Vettel in in his mirrors and BOTH in a defensive mindset, Leclerc failed to his ego

60 to 40 b on Charles.being at fault, no business being that close


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33370
j man wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Yeah Ferrari are damned if they do damned if they don't when it comes to team orders they genuinely get slated whatever their approach

Indeed. Nothing wrong with Ferrari letting their drivers race each other, they should be commended for it. You'd hope that two drivers in the same team would be able to race each other without colliding when there is no championship at stake.

I don't think you can blame Ferrari for this, also let's not forget there's no longer anything at stake for Ferrari this season and it certainly didn't cost them the win of the race.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1569
Location: UK
PRFAN wrote:
Blake wrote:
j man wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Yeah Ferrari are damned if they do damned if they don't when it comes to team orders they genuinely get slated whatever their approach

Indeed. Nothing wrong with Ferrari letting their drivers race each other, they should be commended for it. You'd hope that two drivers in the same team would be able to race each other without colliding when there is no championship at stake.

Cr@p happens. I seem remember other examples of teammates coming together. Obviouly , it is best for the team that they don't, but they are competitors as well.

As has been pointed out a couple of times on this page, Ferrari is damned if they do damned if they don't with some here. Have a #1 not fair to the other driver and used to discredit the "#1" . Have two top drivers, it doesn't work. Use team orders= cheating...don't use them and they should have. Let a teammate through and you are a lapdog, race the teammate and you are the fool.


This is way I say they both carry the same responsibility and I would even go to say this is 60% Charles 40% Vettel.

Charles passed Vettel with a nice move and then got immediately passed again. So Charles went from an offensive mindset to a defensive one and as he said got surprised by the move on the outside from Seb when he even said he was expecting an inside move. You would think that Charles will go in the offensive again but he stayed deffensive and this is in my opinion a key factor. How do you stay deffensive, how you prevent a completed pass? You stay as close as possible to the car in front to allow a side draft effect and to take away a free entree to the next corner just s he did. So now Vettel is in his mirrors and switch from offense to deffense, and how you deffend a pass?? You take the center of the track!!!!

Charles had a better visual understanding of what is happening, Vettel in in his mirrors and BOTH in a defensive mindset, Leclerc failed to his ego

60 to 40 b on Charles.being at fault, no business being that close


How can it be Leclerc's fault? He drove in a straight line, Vettel moved across the track into him. Vettel had little downforce and traction as he had his DRS open and would have been far less able to manoeuvre safely so should have left himself room. It was reckless, plus he has done it than once.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:54 am
Posts: 603
Option or Prime wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
Blake wrote:
j man wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Yeah Ferrari are damned if they do damned if they don't when it comes to team orders they genuinely get slated whatever their approach

Indeed. Nothing wrong with Ferrari letting their drivers race each other, they should be commended for it. You'd hope that two drivers in the same team would be able to race each other without colliding when there is no championship at stake.

Cr@p happens. I seem remember other examples of teammates coming together. Obviouly , it is best for the team that they don't, but they are competitors as well.

As has been pointed out a couple of times on this page, Ferrari is damned if they do damned if they don't with some here. Have a #1 not fair to the other driver and used to discredit the "#1" . Have two top drivers, it doesn't work. Use team orders= cheating...don't use them and they should have. Let a teammate through and you are a lapdog, race the teammate and you are the fool.


This is way I say they both carry the same responsibility and I would even go to say this is 60% Charles 40% Vettel.

Charles passed Vettel with a nice move and then got immediately passed again. So Charles went from an offensive mindset to a defensive one and as he said got surprised by the move on the outside from Seb when he even said he was expecting an inside move. You would think that Charles will go in the offensive again but he stayed deffensive and this is in my opinion a key factor. How do you stay deffensive, how you prevent a completed pass? You stay as close as possible to the car in front to allow a side draft effect and to take away a free entree to the next corner just s he did. So now Vettel is in his mirrors and switch from offense to deffense, and how you deffend a pass?? You take the center of the track!!!!

Charles had a better visual understanding of what is happening, Vettel in in his mirrors and BOTH in a defensive mindset, Leclerc failed to his ego

60 to 40 b on Charles.being at fault, no business being that close


How can it be Leclerc's fault? He drove in a straight line, Vettel moved across the track into him. Vettel had little downforce and traction as he had his DRS open and would have been far less able to manoeuvre safely so should have left himself room. It was reckless, plus he has done it than once.


He positioned his front right too close to Vettels rear left, should have given himself more room in case Vettel decided to go defensuve as any driver would by positioning the car in the middle of the road. The downforce claim you make is mute, this cars still produce significant downforce with the DRS open, not an issue. In my opinion Charles wanted to prevent Vettel to position his car in the middle of the road so he stuck close to him, it is harder for Vettel to judge if he is 100% pass Charles, for this I think you can not say Vettel was reckless, he did what any passing driver would have done, Charles possitioned himself in the danger zone and payed a price. Charles shows his inexperience often. Yes Vettel could have stayed right, but there was no way Charles was getting that position back, he should have stayed back play it safe and attack later. But feelings got in the way. Charles has an ego problem.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:57 am
Posts: 755
Location: Scotland/U.A.E
It's not Leclercs fault... but he (more than Vettel) could have avoided the collision if he had wanted to. The place already was gone when contact was made. But..... ultimately its Vettels responsibility to make a clean pass.

_________________
I'm competing if anyone is interested in how I am getting on.
Car #36 - Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1569
Location: UK
PRFAN wrote:
He positioned his front right too close to Vettels rear left,


Not so he didn't do any positioning, he is driving straight.

PRFAN wrote:
The downforce claim you make is mute


Not at all it downforce were unaffected it would be permitted in corners, the zones are there for a reason.

PRFAN wrote:
Charles has an ego problem.


Quite possibly but they are both the same, it is not the first time Vettel has reacted having been passed, there was only one car moving laterally on that straight, Vettels'.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:01 pm
Posts: 725
Reading the last couple of posts, it seems that the FIA have really dug themselves into a hole on this one after the Monza incident between Hamilton and LeClerc. Effectively LeClerc knows that he won’t get a penalty if he lets Vettel muscle him out of the way and there is no contact between the two.

Basically he is left with two choices. Concede the line and position to Vettel, even though the move is not quite complete. Or hold his line and risk contact. Neither of which are good choices.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:54 am
Posts: 603
Option or Prime wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
He positioned his front right too close to Vettels rear left,


Not so he didn't do any positioning, he is driving straight.

PRFAN wrote:
The downforce claim you make is mute


Not at all it downforce were unaffected it would be permitted in corners, the zones are there for a reason.

PRFAN wrote:
Charles has an ego problem.


Quite possibly but they are both the same, it is not the first time Vettel has reacted having been passed, there was only one car moving laterally on that straight, Vettels'.


You are wrong to think that because the car has DRS open is not producing downforce hence any movement of the wheel to change direction is dangerous. Although a big percentage of the DF is produce by the rear wing, the floor and diffuser provide significant down force numbers, which increase exponentially as speed increases, so even if you remove the rear wing completely, they more speed Vettel gains the safer his car becomes. As I said, DF is not an issue in this scenario. If engineers were able to find a way to produce enough downforce with the floor to allow them to completely delete the rear wing they will do so, that is an extreme situation tho, just trying to prove a point.

Now this sent me to review the video again in slow motion. Leaving the corner into the DRS zone CL is looking to his right mirror, clearly he wants SV to have the outside, he knows SV will have DRS so he does not want to give up the inside to the next corner. Now that he gets SV to the outside, the next thing is to pinch him to the outside, nothing wrong here, this is racing Chess, he wants to deny SV a good entry to next corner and give himself an advantage, this is absolutely normal, but he got greedy. Vettel is 3/4 of the way pass and from the onboard you can clearly see CL turning right, he is reacting to SV moving LEFT to deny CL the line, SV wants to force CL into a shallow/slow entry, again this is CHESS to the next corner, CL at the same time is trying to get SV to react right, they get into an arm wrestling match. This is where CL fackt it up. He, should have conceded, SV got him moving left, he does not have DRS, at this moment he should have moved farther left to allow Seb to move forward, tuck behind, force SV to defend the middle and try for late apex and concentrate on exit. This is something Alonso and Schumi were good at, this is RACECRAFT.

The reason I apportioned some blame for SV is because the stage of the race and they are teammates, and he should have known better, but if not for that unfortunately I have to held CL almost fully responsible for this. He got greedy, he lost out. SV is in front cut you losses fall back and try again next corner.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:54 am
Posts: 603
WHoff78 wrote:
Reading the last couple of posts, it seems that the FIA have really dug themselves into a hole on this one after the Monza incident between Hamilton and LeClerc. Effectively LeClerc knows that he won’t get a penalty if he lets Vettel muscle him out of the way and there is no contact between the two.

Basically he is left with two choices. Concede the line and position to Vettel, even though the move is not quite complete. Or hold his line and risk contact. Neither of which are good choices.



Sometimes you know you have the pace, but not the positioning on the track, its a time for introspection, getting to grips with your reality, die a little inside and CONCEDE the position, trust your pace and get glued to that rear bumper and make him hate you for passing you. He will make a mistake or you will get him a few corners over


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 3506
Anyone putting most of the blame on Leclerc lives in a dreamworld.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 3506
PRFAN wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
He positioned his front right too close to Vettels rear left,


Not so he didn't do any positioning, he is driving straight.

PRFAN wrote:
The downforce claim you make is mute


Not at all it downforce were unaffected it would be permitted in corners, the zones are there for a reason.

PRFAN wrote:
Charles has an ego problem.


Quite possibly but they are both the same, it is not the first time Vettel has reacted having been passed, there was only one car moving laterally on that straight, Vettels'.


You are wrong to think that because the car has DRS open is not producing downforce hence any movement of the wheel to change direction is dangerous. Although a big percentage of the DF is produce by the rear wing, the floor and diffuser provide significant down force numbers, which increase exponentially as speed increases, so even if you remove the rear wing completely, they more speed Vettel gains the safer his car becomes. As I said, DF is not an issue in this scenario. If engineers were able to find a way to produce enough downforce with the floor to allow them to completely delete the rear wing they will do so, that is an extreme situation tho, just trying to prove a point.

Now this sent me to review the video again in slow motion. Leaving the corner into the DRS zone CL is looking to his right mirror, clearly he wants SV to have the outside, he knows SV will have DRS so he does not want to give up the inside to the next corner. Now that he gets SV to the outside, the next thing is to pinch him to the outside, nothing wrong here, this is racing Chess, he wants to deny SV a good entry to next corner and give himself an advantage, this is absolutely normal, but he got greedy. Vettel is 3/4 of the way pass and from the onboard you can clearly see CL turning right, he is reacting to SV moving LEFT to deny CL the line, SV wants to force CL into a shallow/slow entry, again this is CHESS to the next corner, CL at the same time is trying to get SV to react right, they get into an arm wrestling match. This is where CL fackt it up. He, should have conceded, SV got him moving left, he does not have DRS, at this moment he should have moved farther left to allow Seb to move forward, tuck behind, force SV to defend the middle and try for late apex and concentrate on exit. This is something Alonso and Schumi were good at, this is RACECRAFT.

The reason I apportioned some blame for SV is because the stage of the race and they are teammates, and he should have known better, but if not for that unfortunately I have to held CL almost fully responsible for this. He got greedy, he lost out. SV is in front cut you losses fall back and try again next corner.


Vettel would love reading this :lol:

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1569
Location: UK
Before any more radical arguments are put forward the lunacy of this incident has to be seen for what it is. This is not a Ferrari driver v Mercedes driver, or a Ferrari driver v Red Bull driver this is a Ferrari driver v a Ferrari driver. It is not even for the title, its for bragging rights in the pit!

Vettel on that line is never going to make the next corner without either hitting Leclerc or going off track. You may feel Leclerc should have given way, I don't agree, but equally Vettel could have given way. He is the senior more experienced World Championship winning driver after all.

If Vettel had not collided he would have had to close his DRS, and find a line to get him through the corner.
He had less grip than Leclerc as his tyres were older so even if he made it he would have been overtaken by CL soon after. Leclerc has better road craft than Vettel.

He just decided to try to bully Leclerc into giving way. Leclerc had already had a taste of that earlier in the season and if he had conceded and moved over he might as well swap seats with Kimi.

Seb had decided it was finish in front of Leclerc or not at all. Ferrari need to sort this out. We have already seen this season fatal accidents and life changing injuries on race days. Crashes at 190 mph are unpredictable and lets face it SV has been in far too many this season. F1 cars are pretty safe but not impregnable.
I repeat this was an inter-team, blue on blue incident.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:02 am
Posts: 1039
Location: India
Vettel was 99% ahead and made the move fraction too early. Charles knew what was coming but still did not want to give up. That incident is being blown away out of proportion. It is was racing incident and sadly for Ferrari there was huge consequence for it.

_________________
Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6771
Location: Nebraska, USA
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Vettel was 99% ahead and made the move fraction too early. Charles knew what was coming but still did not want to give up. That incident is being blown away out of proportion. It is was racing incident and sadly for Ferrari there was huge consequence for it.


Agreed. Racing incident. Amazing consequences for such a light contact.

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7857
Location: Belgium
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Vettel was 99% ahead and made the move fraction too early. Charles knew what was coming but still did not want to give up.
No MB, that is not correct. Vettel cannot have been 99% ahead if his left rear then touched the rear shoulder of Leclerc's right front tyre - which it did.

Mercedes-Benz wrote:
That incident is being blown away out of proportion. It is was racing incident and sadly for Ferrari there was huge consequence for it.
It came very close indeed to being considered a racing incident, but then, every accident is an incident to begin with. Still, I'm not convinced the stewards were of the opinion neither driver was predominantly to blame for the accident, even though no penalty came the way of either of them. But it is really hard to find a congruous argument to blame Leclerc of anything more than only allowing the outside attacker little more room than the rules prescribe.

If this had not been between team-mates, which gives the stewards the opportunity to let the team "explain" to their drivers whether they raced by the team orders or not, I think there would have been a penalty. Which, I hope, would have been given to the driver who really caused the accident, not the one racing by the rules.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm
Posts: 4370
If a driver, (Leclerc) is deemed to have been equally at fault because he kept driving in a straight line on a straight bit of track, whilst another driver, (Vettel) is equally at fault for moving across before fully passing another car, then I openly admit I have no clue anymore.

Now, if Vettel had begun moving left because he was starting to take the line for the upcoming corner, then I could understand that Leclerc should have anticipated it. As it was, they were still a long way from the corner and Vettel's move could not have been predicted at that point on the track.

_________________
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:02 am
Posts: 1039
Location: India
Fiki wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Vettel was 99% ahead and made the move fraction too early. Charles knew what was coming but still did not want to give up.
No MB, that is not correct. Vettel cannot have been 99% ahead if his left rear then touched the rear shoulder of Leclerc's right front tyre - which it did.

Mercedes-Benz wrote:
That incident is being blown away out of proportion. It is was racing incident and sadly for Ferrari there was huge consequence for it.
It came very close indeed to being considered a racing incident, but then, every accident is an incident to begin with. Still, I'm not convinced the stewards were of the opinion neither driver was predominantly to blame for the accident, even though no penalty came the way of either of them. But it is really hard to find a congruous argument to blame Leclerc of anything more than only allowing the outside attacker little more room than the rules prescribe.

If this had not been between team-mates, which gives the stewards the opportunity to let the team "explain" to their drivers whether they raced by the team orders or not, I think there would have been a penalty. Which, I hope, would have been given to the driver who really caused the accident, not the one racing by the rules.


Vettel rear tyre was ahead of Charles front tyre. His move was only fraction seconds early. Moreover I am very sure Charles could see Vettel coming and that he wanted to go to the racing line to have best possible line for the corner rather than going around outside. But still he did not want to concede. Early in the race Charles was moving more aggressively to overtake midfielder like Norris and Ricciardo. Norris had to give up and move to avoid crash with him.

_________________
Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16428
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Vettel was 99% ahead and made the move fraction too early. Charles knew what was coming but still did not want to give up.
No MB, that is not correct. Vettel cannot have been 99% ahead if his left rear then touched the rear shoulder of Leclerc's right front tyre - which it did.

Mercedes-Benz wrote:
That incident is being blown away out of proportion. It is was racing incident and sadly for Ferrari there was huge consequence for it.
It came very close indeed to being considered a racing incident, but then, every accident is an incident to begin with. Still, I'm not convinced the stewards were of the opinion neither driver was predominantly to blame for the accident, even though no penalty came the way of either of them. But it is really hard to find a congruous argument to blame Leclerc of anything more than only allowing the outside attacker little more room than the rules prescribe.

If this had not been between team-mates, which gives the stewards the opportunity to let the team "explain" to their drivers whether they raced by the team orders or not, I think there would have been a penalty. Which, I hope, would have been given to the driver who really caused the accident, not the one racing by the rules.


Vettel rear tyre was ahead of Charles front tyre. His move was only fraction seconds early. Moreover I am very sure Charles could see Vettel coming and that he wanted to go to the racing line to have best possible line for the corner rather than going around outside. But still he did not want to concede. Early in the race Charles was moving more aggressively to overtake midfielder like Norris and Ricciardo. Norris had to give up and move to avoid crash with him.


That's actually not true. The damage was caused because the wheels overlapped with Vettel going faster so essentially Vettel's rear tyre ran into the back of Leclerc's front tyre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2tLcGvnTtM

watch at about 1:12 for the point of contact. It's clear Leclerc's front tyre is ahead of Vettel's rear tyre.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Posts: 1336
Location: Kansas
Well, I voted that Vettel would win but it would be close. So much for that idea.

My question is with a 24 point gap from Leclerc to Vettel, almost a race win, is that really all that close?

While Vettel has benefited from having a favored race strategy in the team, Charles did what he needed to do to outshine the veteran this year. It seems to me that if Binnotto does not put his hand on the scales favoring one driver over the other till the momentum is clear, Leclerc could easily out-point Vettel by more than he did this year.

In the end, my question is how close was the battle this year between Leclerc and Vettel?

_________________
Mission WinLater


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm
Posts: 7958
Mort Canard wrote:
Well, I voted that Vettel would win but it would be close. So much for that idea.

My question is with a 24 point gap from Leclerc to Vettel, almost a race win, is that really all that close?

While Vettel has benefited from having a favored race strategy in the team, Charles did what he needed to do to outshine the veteran this year. It seems to me that if Binnotto does not put his hand on the scales favoring one driver over the other till the momentum is clear, Leclerc could easily out-point Vettel by more than he did this year.

In the end, my question is how close was the battle this year between Leclerc and Vettel?

Closer than I would have thought in the end given Vettel went missing for pretty much the whole of the second 3rd of the season. Without backtracking and having a look I'd guess that Leclerc lost more points to bad luck than Vettel.

Next year will be interesting. Which way will the car development go? Vettel has never been very adaptable and that showed in the mid part of the season where the car wasnt to his liking. Leclerc seems to be more adaptable as he didn't struggle in the same way.

So based on what we saw this year I see it coming down to largely to the car, if Vettel clicks with it it could be an epic battle next year, if not it could be a complete walk over. Certainly the inter team battle I'm most looking forward to though.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 2589
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Well, I voted that Vettel would win but it would be close. So much for that idea.

My question is with a 24 point gap from Leclerc to Vettel, almost a race win, is that really all that close?

While Vettel has benefited from having a favored race strategy in the team, Charles did what he needed to do to outshine the veteran this year. It seems to me that if Binnotto does not put his hand on the scales favoring one driver over the other till the momentum is clear, Leclerc could easily out-point Vettel by more than he did this year.

In the end, my question is how close was the battle this year between Leclerc and Vettel?

Closer than I would have thought in the end given Vettel went missing for pretty much the whole of the second 3rd of the season. Without backtracking and having a look I'd guess that Leclerc lost more points to bad luck than Vettel.

Next year will be interesting. Which way will the car development go? Vettel has never been very adaptable and that showed in the mid part of the season where the car wasnt to his liking. Leclerc seems to be more adaptable as he didn't struggle in the same way.

So based on what we saw this year I see it coming down to largely to the car, if Vettel clicks with it it could be an epic battle next year, if not it could be a complete walk over. Certainly the inter team battle I'm most looking forward to though.


So what you're saying is that if Vettel clicks with the car he can make a fight of it with Leclerc in roughly equal circumstances, otherwise Leclerc could butcher Vettel. It doesn't sound to me like Vettel has much of a shot here if his best case scenario is to have a good fight with Charles.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am
Posts: 773
Invade wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Well, I voted that Vettel would win but it would be close. So much for that idea.

My question is with a 24 point gap from Leclerc to Vettel, almost a race win, is that really all that close?

While Vettel has benefited from having a favored race strategy in the team, Charles did what he needed to do to outshine the veteran this year. It seems to me that if Binnotto does not put his hand on the scales favoring one driver over the other till the momentum is clear, Leclerc could easily out-point Vettel by more than he did this year.

In the end, my question is how close was the battle this year between Leclerc and Vettel?

Closer than I would have thought in the end given Vettel went missing for pretty much the whole of the second 3rd of the season. Without backtracking and having a look I'd guess that Leclerc lost more points to bad luck than Vettel.

Next year will be interesting. Which way will the car development go? Vettel has never been very adaptable and that showed in the mid part of the season where the car wasnt to his liking. Leclerc seems to be more adaptable as he didn't struggle in the same way.

So based on what we saw this year I see it coming down to largely to the car, if Vettel clicks with it it could be an epic battle next year, if not it could be a complete walk over. Certainly the inter team battle I'm most looking forward to though.


So what you're saying is that if Vettel clicks with the car he can make a fight of it with Leclerc in roughly equal circumstances, otherwise Leclerc could butcher Vettel. It doesn't sound to me like Vettel has much of a shot here if his best case scenario is to have a good fight with Charles.


Well obviously yes.

Anyone who saw Leclerc destroy Ericsson last season knew this was coming. Hence why so much was made of this battle going into the new season, they expected Vettel to be beaten.

Why do you think Vettel always wanted Kimi to be kept on? Because he knew that he easily had the measure of Kimi whilst also knowing deep down that he himself was not really top drawer, so by Kimi staying as his teammate he could avoid being found out for a bit longer.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm
Posts: 7958
Invade wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Well, I voted that Vettel would win but it would be close. So much for that idea.

My question is with a 24 point gap from Leclerc to Vettel, almost a race win, is that really all that close?

While Vettel has benefited from having a favored race strategy in the team, Charles did what he needed to do to outshine the veteran this year. It seems to me that if Binnotto does not put his hand on the scales favoring one driver over the other till the momentum is clear, Leclerc could easily out-point Vettel by more than he did this year.

In the end, my question is how close was the battle this year between Leclerc and Vettel?

Closer than I would have thought in the end given Vettel went missing for pretty much the whole of the second 3rd of the season. Without backtracking and having a look I'd guess that Leclerc lost more points to bad luck than Vettel.

Next year will be interesting. Which way will the car development go? Vettel has never been very adaptable and that showed in the mid part of the season where the car wasnt to his liking. Leclerc seems to be more adaptable as he didn't struggle in the same way.

So based on what we saw this year I see it coming down to largely to the car, if Vettel clicks with it it could be an epic battle next year, if not it could be a complete walk over. Certainly the inter team battle I'm most looking forward to though.


So what you're saying is that if Vettel clicks with the car he can make a fight of it with Leclerc in roughly equal circumstances, otherwise Leclerc could butcher Vettel. It doesn't sound to me like Vettel has much of a shot here if his best case scenario is to have a good fight with Charles.

Admittedly we dont have a large set of data to draw from for Leclerc so we dont know for sure he isnt susceptible to underperformance when the car isnt to his liking, but we do know this is the case for Vettel and have seen it be true way back to 2012 at least.

So yes purely based on what we saw this year I would Vettel and Leclerc are very close when Vettel had the car to his liking. Not so much when he doesn't.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:54 am
Posts: 603
In the end these teams race for points and 2018 vs 2019 results for Ferrari confirm or validate what many beleive in the sense that driver chemistry is important. And maybe Kimi was not that bad after all


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm
Posts: 7958
PRFAN wrote:
In the end these teams race for points and 2018 vs 2019 results for Ferrari confirm or validate what many beleive in the sense that driver chemistry is important. And maybe Kimi was not that bad after all

I dont really see how you could credit Kimi for 2018's point total being higher than this year's. This years car is way worse than last years, with Kimi in the other Ferrari the difference would have been larger too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am
Posts: 773
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
In the end these teams race for points and 2018 vs 2019 results for Ferrari confirm or validate what many beleive in the sense that driver chemistry is important. And maybe Kimi was not that bad after all

I dont really see how you could credit Kimi for 2018's point total being higher than this year's. This years car is way worse than last years, with Kimi in the other Ferrari the difference would have been larger too.


Yeah, I mean you only have to look at the 2018 and 2019 Italian Grand Prix to see the difference between CL and KR. In 2018 Kimi blew it big time whereas in 2019 Leclerc held off Hamilton for the win.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:54 am
Posts: 603
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
In the end these teams race for points and 2018 vs 2019 results for Ferrari confirm or validate what many beleive in the sense that driver chemistry is important. And maybe Kimi was not that bad after all

I dont really see how you could credit Kimi for 2018's point total being higher than this year's. This years car is way worse than last years, with Kimi in the other Ferrari the difference would have been larger too.


I am not entirely crediting Kimi. I am not implying that he is faster than Leclerc either. The car argument I suspected was going to pop up, you can also argue that the MB car in 2019 was worse than the 2018, and I am not sure you can say the 2019 Ferrari was worse than the 2018 car. Also saying that with Kimi in the 2019 Ferrari they would have been farther behind is speculative, no body knows what would have happened. All I am saying is that the 2019 Ferrari Team did worse than the 2018, and you can not deny that moving Leclerc to Ferrari had an impact and I do not think it was a positive one out of the individual achievements of each driver. At the beginning of the season a few (including me) made the argument to the benefits to the team with pairing Vettel and Leclerc, and that maybe one more year at Alfa for Leclerc was not necessarily a bad thing. Points wise Ferrari lost out. Vettel made some mistakes but Charles made some too, as Kimi did last season, but the Level head and consistency of Kimi got him 3rd in the overall standings. With all his critics he only lost out to Leclerc by 13 points! 251 to 264 Old guy past his prime what are you doing in F1 please leave now apparently did well


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:01 pm
Posts: 725
Apparently Binotto claimed that the best Ferrari lap of the season was Vettel’s pole lap in Japan, and that it had to be special because he beat LeClerc. That is pretty telling from the principle. Vettel seems to be up for the fight next season, but I expect Ferrari to throw their weight behind LeClerc and the gap to widen.

What we don’t know is how much each driver brings in terms of optimizing the car development, and relaying where time can be found to the engineers. Or more importantly if the internal competition between the two drivers is hindering this process.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33370
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
In the end these teams race for points and 2018 vs 2019 results for Ferrari confirm or validate what many beleive in the sense that driver chemistry is important. And maybe Kimi was not that bad after all

I dont really see how you could credit Kimi for 2018's point total being higher than this year's. This years car is way worse than last years, with Kimi in the other Ferrari the difference would have been larger too.

Yeah the 2018 Ferrari was a WDC capable car unlike the 2019 Ferrari.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Last edited by pokerman on Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33370
F1 Racer wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
In the end these teams race for points and 2018 vs 2019 results for Ferrari confirm or validate what many beleive in the sense that driver chemistry is important. And maybe Kimi was not that bad after all

I dont really see how you could credit Kimi for 2018's point total being higher than this year's. This years car is way worse than last years, with Kimi in the other Ferrari the difference would have been larger too.


Yeah, I mean you only have to look at the 2018 and 2019 Italian Grand Prix to see the difference between CL and KR. In 2018 Kimi blew it big time whereas in 2019 Leclerc held off Hamilton for the win.

I wouldn't be seeing that as the best example, in 2018 Kimi would probably have been penalised for doing what Leclerc did this year, the stewarding changed somewhat after Canada this year.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33370
WHoff78 wrote:
Apparently Binotto claimed that the best Ferrari lap of the season was Vettel’s pole lap in Japan, and that it had to be special because he beat LeClerc. That is pretty telling from the principle. Vettel seems to be up for the fight next season, but I expect Ferrari to throw their weight behind LeClerc and the gap to widen.

What we don’t know is how much each driver brings in terms of optimizing the car development, and relaying where time can be found to the engineers. Or more importantly if the internal competition between the two drivers is hindering this process.

So Leclerc has become the optimum of performance, a bit like Bottas gets more praise for beating Hamilton rather than the other way round, that's not exactly good for Vettel.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:53 am
Posts: 773
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
In the end these teams race for points and 2018 vs 2019 results for Ferrari confirm or validate what many beleive in the sense that driver chemistry is important. And maybe Kimi was not that bad after all

I dont really see how you could credit Kimi for 2018's point total being higher than this year's. This years car is way worse than last years, with Kimi in the other Ferrari the difference would have been larger too.


Yeah, I mean you only have to look at the 2018 and 2019 Italian Grand Prix to see the difference between CL and KR. In 2018 Kimi blew it big time whereas in 2019 Leclerc held off Hamilton for the win.

I wouldn't be seeing that as the best example, in 2018 Kimi would probably have been penalised for doing what Leclerc did this year, the stewarding changed somewhat after Canada this year.


I never said it was the best example, just an example. ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel vs. Leclerc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33370
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
In the end these teams race for points and 2018 vs 2019 results for Ferrari confirm or validate what many beleive in the sense that driver chemistry is important. And maybe Kimi was not that bad after all

I dont really see how you could credit Kimi for 2018's point total being higher than this year's. This years car is way worse than last years, with Kimi in the other Ferrari the difference would have been larger too.


Yeah, I mean you only have to look at the 2018 and 2019 Italian Grand Prix to see the difference between CL and KR. In 2018 Kimi blew it big time whereas in 2019 Leclerc held off Hamilton for the win.

I wouldn't be seeing that as the best example, in 2018 Kimi would probably have been penalised for doing what Leclerc did this year, the stewarding changed somewhat after Canada this year.


I never said it was the best example, just an example. ;)

Well Leclerc drove like that knowing that he probably would get away with it.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group