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Who would have won '18 WDC in the Ferrari?
Alonso 35%  35%  [ 8 ]
Ricciardo 26%  26%  [ 6 ]
Verstappen 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Other - please specify 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
None 30%  30%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 23
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:24 pm 
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So depending on your point of view, either Lewis won the title for Mercedes, Ferrari lost it for Seb or Seb lost it for Ferrari.

So if you think the last option above is true, given the same decisions from Ferrari and the same performance from Lewis/Merc over '18 would any other current driver have been able to win the title where Seb didn't?

And I guess flipping it round, do you think the title would have gone Ferrari's way if Hamilton and Seb had swapped seats at the start of the year?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:34 pm 
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I think Seb lost it for Ferrari. Too many mistakes. Lewis had a clean season. Verstappen had quite a few mistakes as well. From what I can remember Ricciardo had a fairly clean season with horrible mechanical luck. Alonso probably would have done well but still complained about something.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:45 pm 
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Alonso, if he hasn't lost any speed since his peak (hard to tell) would have taken the title fight to the final race.

Ricciardo/Verstappen is really hard to decide. It depends how much weight you give to 2014. Verstappen in theory could be quite a bit quicker than Vettel which if that is the case would make him favourite to win about 75% of the races this year. A driver 0.2 quicker than Vettel would in theory dominant the season.

If we assume, Ricciardo = Vettel (approx) pace wise, then Ricciardo likely would have taken the title to the final race as the one thing he isn't is error prone and he doesn't make silly mistakes.

Vettel himself on 2011-2013, 2015 or 2017 form would take the title to the final race too.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:47 pm 
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The obvious answers (and probably only) would be Hamilton and Alonso, though unless Ferrari really do romp home these last 2 races, I think either one of them may have found the team's own shortcomings a mountain slightly too high to climb. The engine advantage going for a 3 race wander (and precious little media fanfare about it too really) I reckon has had just as much of an effect as Vettel stacking it in Germany. The weather in Hungary is in the lap of the gods.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:47 pm 
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Only Alonso for sure. Ricciardo may be. Verstappen could but wouldn't this year. He has made as many errors as Vettel.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:39 pm 
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Alonso, I think would have. He would have maximized the points available, probably taken a few results Seb didn't, and in general I think in a slightly superior car to Hamilton he would have taken the title.

Ricciardo might have. I think he wouldn't have made the mistakes, so that's a giant pile of points that puts him about level with Hamilton right now instead of having already lost. If Ferrari has the better car in the remaining races he'd probably take the title, but otherwise it might not go his way. I see Hamilton as a slightly superior driver to Ricciardo.

Verstappen is hard to call. If he would have still made all the mistakes he made early in the year, no. But if he only made those mistakes because he was frustrated at being unable to challenge for the title, he almost certainly has the speed to do the job. I am 90% certain Verstappen is faster than Vettel by a significant (1-2 tenths) amount.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:25 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Only Alonso for sure. Ricciardo may be. Verstappen could but wouldn't this year. He has made as many errors as Vettel.


:nod:
Alonso would have been the most likely one from a driving standpoint

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:20 am 
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By using 2018 season form? Only Alonso would have stood a chance going by my cold numbers. The form of Verstappen or Ricciardo would not have got it done, though I have both slightly above Vettel for the season so far. Hamilton is way out ahead here.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:29 am 
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None of them


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:07 am 
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Alonso probably, but I think Ricciardo could have been a good shot.

Verstappen had a terrible start to the year - of his own doing - so probably wouldn't have been able to challenge Hamilton.

Ricciardo, however, has had almost all of his DNFs (all?) caused by mechanical failure or damage where another driver hit him. In a Ferrari, he would likely have had much better reliability and certainly be starting closer to the front in each race.

Ricciardo might not quite have had the qualifying edge to take every pole, but he would have been a very good shot of winning most Sundays in a Ferrari. He would have made much much less mistakes than Vettel.

I think Ferrari made an error not to sign Ricciardo for 2019. It's hard to see Vettel winning another title from here and Leclerc may take some time to come good.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:42 am 
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I think Alonso and Rosberg are good enough to have been able to take it to the last race.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:01 am 
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The issue is that it wasn’t all entirely on Vettel. The last few races yes but that’s when the pressure mounted and rather than play it safe and go for the point after, he decided to go for two to try and take a commanding lead. That led to mistakes and it cost him but it could very easily have gone the other way and he’d now be heralded as an awesome driver who wasn’t afraid to GO FOR IT rather than play it safe.

He’s still supremely gifted and he will bounce back.

Of the drivers listed I think Ticciardo and Alonso would have aired more on caution in several spots but both would have ultimately gone for it and with Ricciardo especially, his late kamikaze divebombs might have reared their head once more, whereas Alonso would have been more patient and only gone for overtakes when the time was right.

Still, this is all speculation and both might have screwed the pooch just the same or worse.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:32 am 
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I can only vote for Alonso.

I thin Max would have made mistakes (he made some this year) and Ric. I'm unsure.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:46 am 
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Who would have won is a difficult question, I don't think you can guarantee any other driver would have won. Alonso would take it to the final race, every chance he would be leading the championship going into it. Ricciardo would take it to the final 2 races, IMO I don't think it's relevant to talk about Verstappens mistakes because he would be driving the best car on the grid and starting on the front row if not pole, very different circumstances in my eyes. Verstappen would go into the final 2 races if not the final race.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:03 am 
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None of them.
Vettel has had a few errors but so has every driver on the grid.
Vettels have been magnified because of being a WDC challenger, something the others haven't had to put up with.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:16 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
None of them.
Vettel has had a few errors but so has every driver on the grid.
Vettels have been magnified because of being a WDC challenger, something the others haven't had to put up with.


A few error's :lol: You can't be in a championship battle and make that many errors, how many times did he spin the car? At least 4.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:32 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
None of them.
Vettel has had a few errors but so has every driver on the grid.
Vettels have been magnified because of being a WDC challenger, something the others haven't had to put up with.


A few error's :lol: You can't be in a championship battle and make that many errors, how many times did he spin the car? At least 4.


To be fair, a few of the clashes which resulted in spins were 50/50, and unusually he was the one that came out of it with the rough end of the stick every time.
I think whoever may have been in Vettels seat would have still been under the same pressure applied by Hamilton.
I don't think we can know for sure if any of them would have reacted to that pressure better or worse than Vettel has.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:48 am 
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What this kind of hypothetical does is individuals look at the mistakes Vettel made and then say Driver A or B won't make that and thus believe Driver A or B will automatically have all the good results Vettel had.

If we go back to '12 and say Hamilton was in the bull and Vettel in the Ferrari, people would have gone on to say had Alonso been in the Ferrari he would have won the title.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:49 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
The issue is that it wasn’t all entirely on Vettel. The last few races yes but that’s when the pressure mounted and rather than play it safe and go for the point after, he decided to go for two to try and take a commanding lead. That led to mistakes and it cost him but it could very easily have gone the other way and he’d now be heralded as an awesome driver who wasn’t afraid to GO FOR IT rather than play it safe.

He’s still supremely gifted and he will bounce back.

Of the drivers listed I think Ticciardo and Alonso would have aired more on caution in several spots but both would have ultimately gone for it and with Ricciardo especially, his late kamikaze divebombs might have reared their head once more, whereas Alonso would have been more patient and only gone for overtakes when the time was right.

Still, this is all speculation and both might have screwed the pooch just the same or worse.

The pressure would not have been as great if Vettel had not binned the car in Germany.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:52 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
What this kind of hypothetical does is individuals look at the mistakes Vettel made and then say Driver A or B won't make that and thus believe Driver A or B will automatically have all the good results Vettel had.

If we go back to '12 and say Hamilton was in the bull and Vettel in the Ferrari, people would have gone on to say had Alonso been in the Ferrari he would have won the title.

No in that alternate universe nobody knows how things would have played out to know what the subsequent comments would have been.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:02 pm 
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all 3 could have. but i think only alonso would have for sure.

i also think kimastien raikkotel would have won the title. a monster ferrari hybrid of kimi blessed with vettels raw pace.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:47 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
What this kind of hypothetical does is individuals look at the mistakes Vettel made and then say Driver A or B won't make that and thus believe Driver A or B will automatically have all the good results Vettel had.

If we go back to '12 and say Hamilton was in the bull and Vettel in the Ferrari, people would have gone on to say had Alonso been in the Ferrari he would have won the title.

No in that alternate universe nobody knows how things would have played out to know what the subsequent comments would have been.


Yeah right.

Considering with Vettel when he wins it is who else can't win in that 'rocketship', when he does not win it is xxxx would have won in the car.

Some fans of Hamilton are a different breed it is not enough he just won and joined a club of 3, noooo they are still fishing about to denigrate Vettel as they re looking to push the narrative of an against the odds championship which Vettel's mistake has denied them off.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:24 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
None of them

+1

I´m surprised of the absence of this voting option.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:24 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
What this kind of hypothetical does is individuals look at the mistakes Vettel made and then say Driver A or B won't make that and thus believe Driver A or B will automatically have all the good results Vettel had.

If we go back to '12 and say Hamilton was in the bull and Vettel in the Ferrari, people would have gone on to say had Alonso been in the Ferrari he would have won the title.

No in that alternate universe nobody knows how things would have played out to know what the subsequent comments would have been.


Yeah right.

Considering with Vettel when he wins it is who else can't win in that 'rocketship', when he does not win it is xxxx would have won in the car.

Some fans of Hamilton are a different breed it is not enough he just won and joined a club of 3, noooo they are still fishing about to denigrate Vettel as they re looking to push the narrative of an against the odds championship which Vettel's mistake has denied them off.

To my knowledge Dolomite is a fan of no one he's purely a stats man?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:46 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
What this kind of hypothetical does is individuals look at the mistakes Vettel made and then say Driver A or B won't make that and thus believe Driver A or B will automatically have all the good results Vettel had.

If we go back to '12 and say Hamilton was in the bull and Vettel in the Ferrari, people would have gone on to say had Alonso been in the Ferrari he would have won the title.

No in that alternate universe nobody knows how things would have played out to know what the subsequent comments would have been.


Yeah right.

Considering with Vettel when he wins it is who else can't win in that 'rocketship', when he does not win it is xxxx would have won in the car.

Some fans of Hamilton are a different breed it is not enough he just won and joined a club of 3, noooo they are still fishing about to denigrate Vettel as they re looking to push the narrative of an against the odds championship which Vettel's mistake has denied them off.

To my knowledge Dolomite is a fan of no one he's purely a stats man?


Which is why it wasn't addressed to him but the general trend of things.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:55 pm 
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I believe the cars were more or less equal over the course of the season, with a few races where one was decidedly better than the other (including a few recent ones, when Ferrari hadn't yet taken off their questionable upgrades). Given that, it's mostly down to skill and a lack of errors, and so I do think that Alonso would've won in the Ferrari. I think there's a good chance that Ricciardo also would've - he hasn't made many errors at all, and that would at least have given him a fighting chance.

Verstappen... his scrappy start to the season was all down to him, and there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't've had essentially the same issues if he was in the Ferrari instead.

I also think that Hamilton in the Ferrari would've beaten Vettel in the Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:47 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
What this kind of hypothetical does is individuals look at the mistakes Vettel made and then say Driver A or B won't make that and thus believe Driver A or B will automatically have all the good results Vettel had.

If we go back to '12 and say Hamilton was in the bull and Vettel in the Ferrari, people would have gone on to say had Alonso been in the Ferrari he would have won the title.

No in that alternate universe nobody knows how things would have played out to know what the subsequent comments would have been.


Yeah right.

Considering with Vettel when he wins it is who else can't win in that 'rocketship', when he does not win it is xxxx would have won in the car.

Some fans of Hamilton are a different breed it is not enough he just won and joined a club of 3, noooo they are still fishing about to denigrate Vettel as they re looking to push the narrative of an against the odds championship which Vettel's mistake has denied them off.

To my knowledge Dolomite is a fan of no one he's purely a stats man?


Which is why it wasn't addressed to him but the general trend of things.

So only certain people are allowed to contribute?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:54 pm 
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I don't think any driver in the Ferrari would have beaten Lewis in the Merc this year. They were more cohesive than Ferrari.

I think we saw the Ferrari performance get better and better but we also saw how many times they fluffed their strategy. We saw how many times Vettel questioned what they were doing. It just shows they weren't all on the same page and the driver alone doesn't change that. If Ferrari had more stability, more organization and direction (or better) then it would have been a different story. I kind of agree with Vettel when he spoke of his "mistakes" that they were very weird. We saw how many times the Ferrari was nudged and goes into a spin. The car wasn't the best, it was good but not good enough to beat Merc. Vettel said it himself. He gave it his all and probably pushed it harder than he needed to at times. I'm sure Verstappen would have suffered the same fate. Alonso might have been close as well. These guys are all incredible drivers.

I think Hamilton in the Ferrari with a team working as well as Mercedes could have won the championship but I didn't see Ferrari working as well as Merc this year so a driver swap wouldn't have made a difference in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:59 pm 
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Bentrovato wrote:
I don't think any driver in the Ferrari would have beaten Lewis in the Merc this year. They were more cohesive than Ferrari.

I think we saw the Ferrari performance get better and better but we also saw how many times they fluffed their strategy. We saw how many times Vettel questioned what they were doing. It just shows they weren't all on the same page and the driver alone doesn't change that. If Ferrari had more stability, more organization and direction (or better) then it would have been a different story. I kind of agree with Vettel when he spoke of his "mistakes" that they were very weird. We saw how many times the Ferrari was nudged and goes into a spin. The car wasn't the best, it was good but not good enough to beat Merc. Vettel said it himself. He gave it his all and probably pushed it harder than he needed to at times. I'm sure Verstappen would have suffered the same fate. Alonso might have been close as well. These guys are all incredible drivers.

I think Hamilton in the Ferrari with a team working as well as Mercedes could have won the championship but I didn't see Ferrari working as well as Merc this year so a driver swap wouldn't have made a difference in my opinion.

So we are saying that Vettel was nudged into spins and he actually didn't hit cars himself?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:24 pm 
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Bentrovato wrote:
I don't think any driver in the Ferrari would have beaten Lewis in the Merc this year. They were more cohesive than Ferrari.

I think we saw the Ferrari performance get better and better but we also saw how many times they fluffed their strategy. We saw how many times Vettel questioned what they were doing. It just shows they weren't all on the same page and the driver alone doesn't change that. If Ferrari had more stability, more organization and direction (or better) then it would have been a different story. I kind of agree with Vettel when he spoke of his "mistakes" that they were very weird. We saw how many times the Ferrari was nudged and goes into a spin. The car wasn't the best, it was good but not good enough to beat Merc. Vettel said it himself. He gave it his all and probably pushed it harder than he needed to at times. I'm sure Verstappen would have suffered the same fate. Alonso might have been close as well. These guys are all incredible drivers.

I think Hamilton in the Ferrari with a team working as well as Mercedes could have won the championship but I didn't see Ferrari working as well as Merc this year so a driver swap wouldn't have made a difference in my opinion.


Ferrari made mistakes with strategy but Mercedes made some bad ones too. The car was good :lol: , it was at the very least equal but the majority of the opinions I read is the Ferrari was better so far this season.

Vettel made mistakes in Baku and Germany, 4 spins at France, Japan, Monza and Austin. Add the Austria quali and Austin penalties and it's not been a good performance by Vettel. Hamilton has been consistent, mistakes have been minimal and driven at his best. Put Alonso or Hamilton in the Ferrari which has been bullet proof reliability wise and they would still be in the title hunt if not leading it.

I guess it was all Ferraris fault and the Mercedes car was the same dominant one of 14-16.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:15 am 
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Depends when they joined. Alonso's first years in a team haven't exactly been error free apart from 2008 going back to Renault where he had zero pressure and a proper lap dog. Would the competitiveness of the Ferrari make him less aggressive than he was in 2010 because he's not trying to overcome a 4th car deficit or has being out of that situation in F1 since 2007, 11 years it would be, have made him a bit overeager and he'd try to do too much himself instead of leaning on the cars performance and mopping up opportunities like he did so expertly in 2006?

Second year in the team this year and yeah I think he can do it but if it's the first it could easily have looked like Seb's mistakes-wise. Though his highs may have been higher and he could've nabbed one or two off Lewis on more equal tracks in the first half of the season especially and maybe applied more pressure on Lewis (He'd have certainly played the press more than Seb does) but it's really hard to say when just dropping him in to each scenario on each session on each track what someone else would've done.

I don't think Max was ready whatever year he was in, (I think he is now post Monaco) and he's the only other one in the conversation I feel so it's really only Alonso on the proviso it's his second year otherwise I'm not so sure it was doable but the competitiveness of the Ferrari would make it pretty close either way.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:58 am 
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You didn't offer "NONE" as a choice. Instead we are left to vote "Other" Not to mention that Hamilton also was not a choice. Hamilton would be the ONLY driver (in the Ferrari) capable of beating Hamilton in the Mercedes.

All that assumes the Ferrari was really capable. It did well in qualifying, but the race pace throughout the year has been inconsistent, especially once FIA installed those battery monitoring sensors.

The idea that Alonso would have won the WDC in the Ferrari is laughable. Alonso burned his bridges with Ferrari years ago. There are people at Ferrari who would not have given 100% support for Alonso, even if he were there. And frankly, Alonso hadn't been mentally in the game for years, regardless of his poor career planning.

I hope we will not spend the entire off season contemplating these silly fantasies, rather than giving Hamilton his due.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:46 am 
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I think any top driver, driving the best or near best car, having a career best season on terms of performance, whilst rivals squandered points would always win the title.

Regardless, I think Hamilton would have been very hard to beat this year without a clear car advantage, or a lot of luck.

I'm not sure who'd win this season if you cloned Hamilton and put him in the Ferrari this year.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:41 am 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
I'm not sure who'd win this season if you cloned Hamilton and put him in the Ferrari this year.

I think Hamilton would probably win in that case. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:19 pm 
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With the current pit wall and team management, it would have been 2012 story in favour of Hamilton even if it was Alonso at the helm. Ferrari's stubbornness to not have clear cut team orders in place even when it was clear that kimi cant do anything in championship and questionable pitwall tactics played as much of a role as Seb's own mistakes.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:38 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
With the current pit wall and team management, it would have been 2012 story in favour of Hamilton even if it was Alonso at the helm. Ferrari's stubbornness to not have clear cut team orders in place even when it was clear that kimi cant do anything in championship and questionable pitwall tactics played as much of a role as Seb's own mistakes.


(BIB)

I'm not quite understanding what you mean here? Are you referring to McLaren's operational incompetence of 2012?

Iirc, the 2012 McLaren pitwall mistakes were far more extensive. Also, the McLaren MP4-27 was mechanically unreliable. Vettel's SF71H has bullet-proof reliability this year. And, despite the negative combination of McLaren pitwall incompetence & an unreliable car, Hamilton was still able to keep his own personal mistakes to a minimum. He actually drove one of his best seasons. This year, Vettel has made countless errors, while enjoying a bullet-proof car. In this respect, 2012 & 2018 are not comparable.

Yes, the Ferrari pitwall has made some questionable decisions this year, but the very same can be said of the Mercedes pitwall.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:24 pm 
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During the Sochi weekend, Bernie Ecclestone opined, "Ferrari are too Italian to win championships nowadays" The races that followed have lent more credence and nuance to that theory. He makes comparisons of today's team with the Jean Todt/Ross Brawn days (when the team was less driven by preserving image and more driven purely by racing.)

Don't shoot me, I'm just quoting the messenger. Here's the original article... http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/24834 ... s-nowadays

The last paragraph explains what he means...

"Ferrari have got a completely different way of going on to Mercedes, haven't they. Mercedes has got a team that's pure, all they do is racing, it's nothing to do with the manufacturer. Ferrari is looking after their car production side of things, gearing that more or less to their Formula One performances. So it's run in a different way."

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:31 pm 
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Crap! I didn't know adding a value to the Poll would reset the votes!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:21 am 
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MB-BOB wrote:
During the Sochi weekend, Bernie Ecclestone opined, "Ferrari are too Italian to win championships nowadays" The races that followed have lent more credence and nuance to that theory. He makes comparisons of today's team with the Jean Todt/Ross Brawn days (when the team was less driven by preserving image and more driven purely by racing.)

Don't shoot me, I'm just quoting the messenger. Here's the original article... http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/24834 ... s-nowadays

The last paragraph explains what he means...

"Ferrari have got a completely different way of going on to Mercedes, haven't they. Mercedes has got a team that's pure, all they do is racing, it's nothing to do with the manufacturer. Ferrari is looking after their car production side of things, gearing that more or less to their Formula One performances. So it's run in a different way."

I'm sure I saw a video were Bernie said that Vettel was going to win the title, personally I take no heed in what he says.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:22 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Crap! I didn't know adding a value to the Poll would reset the votes!

It's alright for me I didn't vote anyway. :)

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