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 Post subject: 2019 WCC Order?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:33 pm 
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With new aerodynamic rules & some teams having new/changed lineups (Ferrari, Red Bull, Renault, Force India, Williams, Sauber, Toro Rosso), I hope the hierarchy in the WCC does change.

Tier 1:
Mercedes, Ferrari
(Hard to dethrone these 2 teams. Both teams will have strong & weak tracks throughout the season but Mercedes could have the edge).

Tier 2:
Red Bull
(With simpler aerodynamic rules being implemented, I wonder if Red Bull will lose touch with the Tier 1 teams as Red Bull's biggest strength was in their chassis & aerodynamics).

Tier 3:
Renault, Sauber, Haas, Force India
(Closest tier again. Sauber should get stronger due to increased Alfa Romeo backing. Raikkonen coming into the team would probably mean more investment & overall growth & development. Renault should be strong(er) with Ricciardo joining in. Haas could continue to grow & Force India, even though with improved financial backing, the lineup does get a little weak due to Stroll joining in but hope he gets better).

Tier 4:
McLaren, Toro Rosso, Williams
(Don't see McLaren improving just yet. Toro Rosso's completely new lineup could be their downfall. Williams will need to turn around 360 degrees as they've been so low(e)).

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Last edited by UnlikeUday on Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:54 pm 
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While Ferrari is the only title challenger, they really aren't close to winning the championship. Mercedes allowed the championship to be this close. If they wanted ratings to tank and devalue F1 they could have won the championship two months ago. But they are great at letting the show go on for this long.

Based on what I see..

Tier 1: Mercedes
Tier 2a: Ferrari
Tier 2b: Red Bull
Tier 3: Renault
Tier 4: Sauber, Hass, Force India, Toro Rosso
Tier 5: Williams, McLaren

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:12 pm 
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Posts: 408
Bentrovato wrote:
While Ferrari is the only title challenger, they really aren't close to winning the championship. Mercedes allowed the championship to be this close. If they wanted ratings to tank and devalue F1 they could have won the championship two months ago. But they are great at letting the show go on for this long.

Based on what I see..

Tier 1: Mercedes
Tier 2a: Ferrari
Tier 2b: Red Bull
Tier 3: Renault
Tier 4: Sauber, Hass, Force India, Toro Rosso
Tier 5: Williams, McLaren


You don't buy into the sandbagging Mercedes conspiracy theory do you? These theories tend to stem from those who wish to belittle Hamilton's acheivement.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:46 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Bentrovato wrote:
While Ferrari is the only title challenger, they really aren't close to winning the championship. Mercedes allowed the championship to be this close. If they wanted ratings to tank and devalue F1 they could have won the championship two months ago. But they are great at letting the show go on for this long.

Based on what I see..

Tier 1: Mercedes
Tier 2a: Ferrari
Tier 2b: Red Bull
Tier 3: Renault
Tier 4: Sauber, Hass, Force India, Toro Rosso
Tier 5: Williams, McLaren


You don't buy into the sandbagging Mercedes conspiracy theory do you? These theories tend to stem from those who wish to belittle Hamilton's acheivement.


I definitely don't belittle Hamilton's achievement. Although he had the best machinery at his disposal (really hard to disagree with that but go ahead if you must), Hamilton also displayed supreme mastery this season, I thought he was brilliant. The F1 I watch, shows Mercedes as a completely dominant package. When it was time to put the championship away, they dialed it in and blew away Ferrari. If you want to call it sand bagging be my guest. All I'm saying is I did not see a Ferrari that was capable of beating Mercedes this year.

Since you brought up sand bagging. You do realize in Formula 1 most teams "sandbag" right? They do it from day 1 in testing right through FP2 in Abu Dhabi. It's part of the game. To label it as a conspiracy theory demonstrates a lack of understanding. I personally do not know if Mercedes did sand bag. IF they had even more performance, they sand bagged. My opinion from being at multiple races from the past few seasons - the Merc package is far superior than others. It's not that close. That's all I'm saying. I leave the sand bagging to you!

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:03 pm 
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Posts: 408
Bentrovato wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Bentrovato wrote:
While Ferrari is the only title challenger, they really aren't close to winning the championship. Mercedes allowed the championship to be this close. If they wanted ratings to tank and devalue F1 they could have won the championship two months ago. But they are great at letting the show go on for this long.

Based on what I see..

Tier 1: Mercedes
Tier 2a: Ferrari
Tier 2b: Red Bull
Tier 3: Renault
Tier 4: Sauber, Hass, Force India, Toro Rosso
Tier 5: Williams, McLaren


You don't buy into the sandbagging Mercedes conspiracy theory do you? These theories tend to stem from those who wish to belittle Hamilton's acheivement.


I definitely don't belittle Hamilton's achievement. Although he had the best machinery at his disposal (really hard to disagree with that but go ahead if you must), Hamilton also displayed supreme mastery this season, I thought he was brilliant. The F1 I watch, shows Mercedes as a completely dominant package. When it was time to put the championship away, they dialed it in and blew away Ferrari. If you want to call it sand bagging be my guest. All I'm saying is I did not see a Ferrari that was capable of beating Mercedes this year.

Since you brought up sand bagging. You do realize in Formula 1 most teams "sandbag" right? They do it from day 1 in testing right through FP2 in Abu Dhabi. It's part of the game. To label it as a conspiracy theory demonstrates a lack of understanding. I personally do not know if Mercedes did sand bag. IF they had even more performance, they sand bagged. My opinion from being at multiple races from the past few seasons - the Merc package is far superior than others. It's not that close. That's all I'm saying. I leave the sand bagging to you!


I know what sandbagging is so please save the patronizing tone for someone else. Your original message heavily implied that Mercedes were holding back performance for the good of tv ratings and chose when to wrap up the title. Essentially that they engineered a title race. I'm simply calling that utter tin hat nonsense.

If that was your point there is no way that Mercedes would deliberately reduce their performance. We've just seen Toto Wolff too upset to congratulate his driver on the radio on winning a fifth title because he was so gutted at the team performance.

If Merc were holding back performance for the good of the sport , then the Sochi team order makes no sense at all. That was bad publicity for the sport and totally avoidable if Mercedes could have just pulled extra performance out at will.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:05 pm 
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1. Ferrari
2. Mercedes
3. Red Bull
4. Renault
5. Force India
6. Haas
7. Sauber
8. McLaren
9. Toro Rosso
10. Williams


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:38 am 
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Posts: 1579
UnlikeUday wrote:
With new aerodynamic rules & some teams having new/changed lineups (Ferrari, Red Bull, Renault, Force India, Williams, Sauber, Toro Rosso), I hope the hierarchy in the WCC does change.

Tier 1:
Mercedes, Ferrari
(Hard to dethrone these 2 teams. Both teams will have strong & weak tracks throughout the season but Mercedes could have the edge).

Tier 2:
Red Bull
(With simpler aerodynamic rules being implemented, I wonder if Red Bull will lose touch with the Tier 1 teams as Red Bull's biggest strength was in their chassis & aerodynamics).

Tier 3:
Renault, Sauber, Haas, Force India
(Closest tier again. Sauber should get stronger due to increased Alfa Romeo backing. Raikkonen coming into the team would probably mean more investment & overall growth & development. Renault should be strong(er) with Ricciardo joining in. Haas could continue to grow & Force India, even though with improved financial backing, the lineup does get a little weak due to Stroll joining in but hope he gets better).

Tier 4:
McLaren, Toro Rosso, Williams
(Don't see McLaren improving just yet. Toro Rosso's completely new lineup could be their downfall. Williams will need to turn around 360 degrees as they've been so low(e)).

It hasn't been confirmed yet that hartly is leaving. And the team said they won't decide until the final race. And Kvyat isn't exactly completely new is he? The team must have had some hope in him given the team manager said he would never return when he got kicked out last year.

Basicaly, there i a chance it could be a driver with nearly 4 seasons experience and one who was there last year. I think it is unlikely that Hartly will be, but it is certainly possible.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:38 am 
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Location: Mumbai, India
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
With new aerodynamic rules & some teams having new/changed lineups (Ferrari, Red Bull, Renault, Force India, Williams, Sauber, Toro Rosso), I hope the hierarchy in the WCC does change.

Tier 1:
Mercedes, Ferrari
(Hard to dethrone these 2 teams. Both teams will have strong & weak tracks throughout the season but Mercedes could have the edge).

Tier 2:
Red Bull
(With simpler aerodynamic rules being implemented, I wonder if Red Bull will lose touch with the Tier 1 teams as Red Bull's biggest strength was in their chassis & aerodynamics).

Tier 3:
Renault, Sauber, Haas, Force India
(Closest tier again. Sauber should get stronger due to increased Alfa Romeo backing. Raikkonen coming into the team would probably mean more investment & overall growth & development. Renault should be strong(er) with Ricciardo joining in. Haas could continue to grow & Force India, even though with improved financial backing, the lineup does get a little weak due to Stroll joining in but hope he gets better).

Tier 4:
McLaren, Toro Rosso, Williams
(Don't see McLaren improving just yet. Toro Rosso's completely new lineup could be their downfall. Williams will need to turn around 360 degrees as they've been so low(e)).

It hasn't been confirmed yet that hartly is leaving. And the team said they won't decide until the final race. And Kvyat isn't exactly completely new is he? The team must have had some hope in him given the team manager said he would never return when he got kicked out last year.

Basicaly, there i a chance it could be a driver with nearly 4 seasons experience and one who was there last year. I think it is unlikely that Hartly will be, but it is certainly possible.


I meant New by not continuing the same river lineup. Kvyat was on the sideline & as per Bild, Hartley has been informed by Helmut Marko in Mexico that he won't be retained for 2019.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/hartley-told-of-toro-rosso-axe-report/

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:33 pm 
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Posts: 5912
Bentrovato wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Bentrovato wrote:
While Ferrari is the only title challenger, they really aren't close to winning the championship. Mercedes allowed the championship to be this close. If they wanted ratings to tank and devalue F1 they could have won the championship two months ago. But they are great at letting the show go on for this long.

Based on what I see..

Tier 1: Mercedes
Tier 2a: Ferrari
Tier 2b: Red Bull
Tier 3: Renault
Tier 4: Sauber, Hass, Force India, Toro Rosso
Tier 5: Williams, McLaren


You don't buy into the sandbagging Mercedes conspiracy theory do you? These theories tend to stem from those who wish to belittle Hamilton's acheivement.


I definitely don't belittle Hamilton's achievement. Although he had the best machinery at his disposal (really hard to disagree with that but go ahead if you must), Hamilton also displayed supreme mastery this season, I thought he was brilliant. The F1 I watch, shows Mercedes as a completely dominant package. When it was time to put the championship away, they dialed it in and blew away Ferrari. If you want to call it sand bagging be my guest. All I'm saying is I did not see a Ferrari that was capable of beating Mercedes this year.

Since you brought up sand bagging. You do realize in Formula 1 most teams "sandbag" right? They do it from day 1 in testing right through FP2 in Abu Dhabi. It's part of the game. To label it as a conspiracy theory demonstrates a lack of understanding. I personally do not know if Mercedes did sand bag. IF they had even more performance, they sand bagged. My opinion from being at multiple races from the past few seasons - the Merc package is far superior than others. It's not that close. That's all I'm saying. I leave the sand bagging to you!

I had to read this a couple of times to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding you. You're out to lunch here it seems. The consensus this season is that Ferrari have had the stronger machinery. Vettel, in particular has had bullet-proof reliability and the Ferrari has been the faster car more often than not. So your whole perspective seems to be way off (or perhaps you've been sent forward through time from 2016?).


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:38 pm 
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Posts: 989
sandman1347 wrote:
Bentrovato wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Bentrovato wrote:
While Ferrari is the only title challenger, they really aren't close to winning the championship. Mercedes allowed the championship to be this close. If they wanted ratings to tank and devalue F1 they could have won the championship two months ago. But they are great at letting the show go on for this long.

Based on what I see..

Tier 1: Mercedes
Tier 2a: Ferrari
Tier 2b: Red Bull
Tier 3: Renault
Tier 4: Sauber, Hass, Force India, Toro Rosso
Tier 5: Williams, McLaren


You don't buy into the sandbagging Mercedes conspiracy theory do you? These theories tend to stem from those who wish to belittle Hamilton's acheivement.


I definitely don't belittle Hamilton's achievement. Although he had the best machinery at his disposal (really hard to disagree with that but go ahead if you must), Hamilton also displayed supreme mastery this season, I thought he was brilliant. The F1 I watch, shows Mercedes as a completely dominant package. When it was time to put the championship away, they dialed it in and blew away Ferrari. If you want to call it sand bagging be my guest. All I'm saying is I did not see a Ferrari that was capable of beating Mercedes this year.

Since you brought up sand bagging. You do realize in Formula 1 most teams "sandbag" right? They do it from day 1 in testing right through FP2 in Abu Dhabi. It's part of the game. To label it as a conspiracy theory demonstrates a lack of understanding. I personally do not know if Mercedes did sand bag. IF they had even more performance, they sand bagged. My opinion from being at multiple races from the past few seasons - the Merc package is far superior than others. It's not that close. That's all I'm saying. I leave the sand bagging to you!

I had to read this a couple of times to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding you. You're out to lunch here it seems. The consensus this season is that Ferrari have had the stronger machinery. Vettel, in particular has had bullet-proof reliability and the Ferrari has been the faster car more often than not. So your whole perspective seems to be way off (or perhaps you've been sent forward through time from 2016?).


Why answer in a polite way when someone disagrees with your opinion when you can be rude?


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Posts: 5912
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Bentrovato wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Bentrovato wrote:
While Ferrari is the only title challenger, they really aren't close to winning the championship. Mercedes allowed the championship to be this close. If they wanted ratings to tank and devalue F1 they could have won the championship two months ago. But they are great at letting the show go on for this long.

Based on what I see..

Tier 1: Mercedes
Tier 2a: Ferrari
Tier 2b: Red Bull
Tier 3: Renault
Tier 4: Sauber, Hass, Force India, Toro Rosso
Tier 5: Williams, McLaren


You don't buy into the sandbagging Mercedes conspiracy theory do you? These theories tend to stem from those who wish to belittle Hamilton's acheivement.


I definitely don't belittle Hamilton's achievement. Although he had the best machinery at his disposal (really hard to disagree with that but go ahead if you must), Hamilton also displayed supreme mastery this season, I thought he was brilliant. The F1 I watch, shows Mercedes as a completely dominant package. When it was time to put the championship away, they dialed it in and blew away Ferrari. If you want to call it sand bagging be my guest. All I'm saying is I did not see a Ferrari that was capable of beating Mercedes this year.

Since you brought up sand bagging. You do realize in Formula 1 most teams "sandbag" right? They do it from day 1 in testing right through FP2 in Abu Dhabi. It's part of the game. To label it as a conspiracy theory demonstrates a lack of understanding. I personally do not know if Mercedes did sand bag. IF they had even more performance, they sand bagged. My opinion from being at multiple races from the past few seasons - the Merc package is far superior than others. It's not that close. That's all I'm saying. I leave the sand bagging to you!

I had to read this a couple of times to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding you. You're out to lunch here it seems. The consensus this season is that Ferrari have had the stronger machinery. Vettel, in particular has had bullet-proof reliability and the Ferrari has been the faster car more often than not. So your whole perspective seems to be way off (or perhaps you've been sent forward through time from 2016?).


Why answer in a polite way when someone disagrees with your opinion when you can be rude?

You are very sensitive these days huh?


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:03 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Bentrovato wrote:
I definitely don't belittle Hamilton's achievement. Although he had the best machinery at his disposal (really hard to disagree with that but go ahead if you must), Hamilton also displayed supreme mastery this season, I thought he was brilliant. The F1 I watch, shows Mercedes as a completely dominant package. When it was time to put the championship away, they dialed it in and blew away Ferrari. If you want to call it sand bagging be my guest. All I'm saying is I did not see a Ferrari that was capable of beating Mercedes this year.

I had to read this a couple of times to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding you. You're out to lunch here it seems. The consensus this season is that Ferrari have had the stronger machinery. Vettel, in particular has had bullet-proof reliability and the Ferrari has been the faster car more often than not. So your whole perspective seems to be way off (or perhaps you've been sent forward through time from 2016?).

Although I wouldn't have put it quite like that, I do think it's pretty easy to disagree with the assertion that Hamilton had the best machinery this season.

Or, well, to put it a different way, I can't agree that Hamilton had a machinery advantage over the balance of the season. I can see an interpretation where the two cars are considered equal, although I would personally consider the Ferrari to have been slightly better overall this year.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:51 am 
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One of Force India's sponsor's (Acronis) head has said with the team getting financial backing, the team's budget is going to triple in 2019. This is a welcome news who've always punched above their weight. With a bigger budget, they should develop a great car.
http://www.grandprix.com/news/sponsor-says-force-india-budget-to-triple.html

Renault, Haas & Sauber are also expected to be getting stronger next year though.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:34 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
One of Force India's sponsor's (Acronis) head has said with the team getting financial backing, the team's budget is going to triple in 2019. This is a welcome news who've always punched above their weight. With a bigger budget, they should develop a great car.
http://www.grandprix.com/news/sponsor-says-force-india-budget-to-triple.html

Renault, Haas & Sauber are also expected to be getting stronger next year though.


Lance Stroll.... 2020 world champion.

You read it here 1st people. :nod: :nod:

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:22 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
One of Force India's sponsor's (Acronis) head has said with the team getting financial backing, the team's budget is going to triple in 2019. This is a welcome news who've always punched above their weight. With a bigger budget, they should develop a great car.
http://www.grandprix.com/news/sponsor-says-force-india-budget-to-triple.html

Renault, Haas & Sauber are also expected to be getting stronger next year though.


Lance Stroll.... 2020 world champion.

You read it here 1st people. :nod: :nod:

If the car is that good, it'd be Perez... or nobody, if they tried to favor Lance! :lol:

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TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:37 pm 
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I expect the new rules to help Redbull actually. If you look at the redbull car it is a simpler design than the merc or Ferrari. Imo they are getting most of their performance from their floor area and their suspension geometry. They always are able to run less wing than their rivals. With the new regs simplifying front wings, that is only going to help them. Their biggest worry will be the Honda engine imo. If they get that sorted they will be the team to beat.

I expect Merc to regress even more. Their power unit advantage has already been nullified by Ferrari. I expect the others to close the gap at the very least.

Ferrari should be even stronger too next year as they have followed up the 2017 car with an even better package this year. I see no reason why their upward trend wouldn’t continue and I feel they might have a truly dominant car by next year.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:01 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
I expect the new rules to help Redbull actually. If you look at the redbull car it is a simpler design than the merc or Ferrari. Imo they are getting most of their performance from their floor area and their suspension geometry. They always are able to run less wing than their rivals. With the new regs simplifying front wings, that is only going to help them. Their biggest worry will be the Honda engine imo. If they get that sorted they will be the team to beat.

I expect Merc to regress even more. Their power unit advantage has already been nullified by Ferrari. I expect the others to close the gap at the very least.

Ferrari should be even stronger too next year as they have followed up the 2017 car with an even better package this year. I see no reason why their upward trend wouldn’t continue and I feel they might have a truly dominant car by next year.

It is complicated though. Mercedes seem to have generally had a better handle on the trade-offs in power/aero right from the start of this era. Ferrari used to be more competitive on the slower/high downforce tracks but ultimately had to relinquish some of that competitiveness to compete over the whole season. Are Red Bull able to retain the edge at those circuits and still close the gap to reach a level where they can compete on enough circuits, including the power tracks, over the course of a whole season? I guess time will tell as they edge closer to the front two teams.

Also Mercedes pushed the 2019 aero changes and being in pole position coming into the last few races may have put them in a position where they can focus more on 2019. Looks like Tyres will be closer to the thinner tread version used at Silverstone/France/Spain for next season too, so with increasing importance of tyre management this will be another factor.

Plenty to look forward to for the next season though. If they can improve the racing, and keep focusing on small steps to allow more track action year on year then it can only be a good thing. Perhaps we can even look forward to the removal of DRS in time, but feel that realistically that shouldn't come until 2022/2023. If they have any sense they will just shorten/remove the DRS zones at certain races rather than just do away with it all together.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:04 pm 
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I'll guess at...

1. Ferrari
2. Mercedes
3. Red Bull
4. Renault
5. McLaren
6. Force India (Or Racing Point)
7. Sauber
8. Haas
9. STR
10. Williams

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:13 pm 
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Does anyone know which of the lower teams have made efforts to align themselves closer to the top 3/4 either, like Haas, and purchase more parts? I know the top teams have massive budgets anyway, but the extra investment and even relationships/data shared can only help a team like Ferrari to develop that bit quicker too. And of course the benefits to the team purchasing the parts are obvious when you see how quickly Haas became competitive in the midfield.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:35 pm 
I'll hope for:

McLaren/Williams
Mercedes/Sauber (go Kimi!)
Torro Rosso
Renault
Red Bull/Ferrari
Force India (Or Racing Point)/Haas

All highly unlikely, but there you go.

Edit - with Force India/Haas being as close to the top as the best of them is at any race now or closer


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:03 am 
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WHoff78 wrote:
Does anyone know which of the lower teams have made efforts to align themselves closer to the top 3/4 either, like Haas, and purchase more parts? I know the top teams have massive budgets anyway, but the extra investment and even relationships/data shared can only help a team like Ferrari to develop that bit quicker too. And of course the benefits to the team purchasing the parts are obvious when you see how quickly Haas became competitive in the midfield.


STR will get the Red Bull rear end apparently. They've been due it before, usually the previous years rear end but because of all the engine switches they never got it but allegedly they'll get the exact same as what Red Bull have been working on for the switch to Honda next year. This was from Horner himself, I'll try to find the link, I'm sure it was on F1addict or whatever its called now.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:26 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Does anyone know which of the lower teams have made efforts to align themselves closer to the top 3/4 either, like Haas, and purchase more parts? I know the top teams have massive budgets anyway, but the extra investment and even relationships/data shared can only help a team like Ferrari to develop that bit quicker too. And of course the benefits to the team purchasing the parts are obvious when you see how quickly Haas became competitive in the midfield.


STR will get the Red Bull rear end apparently. They've been due it before, usually the previous years rear end but because of all the engine switches they never got it but allegedly they'll get the exact same as what Red Bull have been working on for the switch to Honda next year. This was from Horner himself, I'll try to find the link, I'm sure it was on F1addict or whatever its called now.


I had read this as well so can confirm this story.

With STR having even a better alliance with Red Bull in 2019, the fight to be 'Best of the Rest' behind the top 3 will be even fierce. Sauber will be quite strong next year. Haas should be improving n their current form & with Force India's budget set to get tripled, they may also be in the fight.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:56 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Does anyone know which of the lower teams have made efforts to align themselves closer to the top 3/4 either, like Haas, and purchase more parts? I know the top teams have massive budgets anyway, but the extra investment and even relationships/data shared can only help a team like Ferrari to develop that bit quicker too. And of course the benefits to the team purchasing the parts are obvious when you see how quickly Haas became competitive in the midfield.


STR will get the Red Bull rear end apparently. They've been due it before, usually the previous years rear end but because of all the engine switches they never got it but allegedly they'll get the exact same as what Red Bull have been working on for the switch to Honda next year. This was from Horner himself, I'll try to find the link, I'm sure it was on F1addict or whatever its called now.


I had read this as well so can confirm this story.

With STR having even a better alliance with Red Bull in 2019, the fight to be 'Best of the Rest' behind the top 3 will be even fierce. Sauber will be quite strong next year. Haas should be improving n their current form & with Force India's budget set to get tripled, they may also be in the fight.


:thumbup:

Found it, it's on RaceFans.

Horner wrote:
“Toro Rosso will use a complete Red Bull Technology rear end next year,” he confirms. “Having a common power supplier only makes that easier.”


https://www.racefans.net/2018/07/16/why ... erview-f1/

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:38 pm 
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^ That's good. When I saw the words Bull and Rear End in the same sentence...

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Nick Chester from Renault has said the 2019 car is making good progress. Question is whether Renault will be able to overhaul Red Bull (with Honda) for 3rd best team.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renault-2019-car-strong-progress/3215031/

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:51 pm 
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Mercedes, Ferrari
Red Bull, but much closer, with reliability being their main problem. On pace they will often be faster than either Merc/Ferr

Renault, mainly based on the strength of their driver line-up

Force India, Haas

Sauber, Toro Rosso, McLaren

Williams


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:12 am 
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Invade wrote:
Mercedes, Ferrari
Red Bull, but much closer, with reliability being their main problem. On pace they will often be faster than either Merc/Ferr

Renault, mainly based on the strength of their driver line-up

Force India, Haas

Sauber, Toro Rosso, McLaren

Williams


I'm sure Sauber will be higher. If Raikkonen's going there, am sure Alfa Romeo will be investing much more in the 2019 car. Already they've made so much progress this year. Force India's investment should be tripling as per 1 of their sponsor's head & with the efficient work their staff did on a limited budget, wonder how good they would get with a much bigger budget.

2019 will be interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:23 am 
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I'll try to be a little less conservative:

Red Bull (Honda)
Merc/Ferrari (will be as close as this year)

Force India (triple budget, best pound for pound team in the business for ages)
Sauber (will continue to grow)
Haas/Toro Rosso (solid midfield, both with a smart business model)
Williams (will get on top of their problems, at least partially and signed Russell, who is a future star)
Renault (will disappoint immensely)
McLaren (have seen no signs they'll improve)


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:10 am 
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Llotyhy wrote:
I'll try to be a little less conservative:

Red Bull (Honda)
Merc/Ferrari (will be as close as this year)

Force India (triple budget, best pound for pound team in the business for ages)
Sauber (will continue to grow)
Haas/Toro Rosso (solid midfield, both with a smart business model)
Williams (will get on top of their problems, at least partially and signed Russell, who is a future star)
Renault (will disappoint immensely)
McLaren (have seen no signs they'll improve)

Some bold calls in there. In particular, I see almost no chance that Renault will be worse than Williams. I'll be quite impressed if these turn out to be true!

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:04 pm 
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I've got:
Ferrari- The last few seasons show they have been getting closer to being top dogs. The Leclerc-Vettel battle could compromise the drivers titke though.

Mercedes- Competitive but a bit behind. Hamilton will be a title contender, Bottas will be able to he used to compromise the Ferrari strategy at times.

Red Bull- All things considered I would expect them to be a bit closer to those above. Max will be a title contender but on most tracks the big two will hold sway.

Renault- Improved driver line-up, they will take things very seriously this season and have strong resources and Daniel will get some strong results

Sauber- They have ambition to improve, and it will start in 2019. Kimi will have to bring home the majority of the points but theg wouldn't have signed him if tgere wasn't a plan.

Force India/Racing point- They have big investment coming but that will take a while to come to fruition. The financial upheaval of earlier in the season will have left them with a bit of catching up to do. Lance Stroll will not be able to deliver as often as Perez will or Ocon did.

Haas- I see them taking a backwards step. They have talented drivers but the team at times has bitten the hand that feeds.

Torro Rosso- They'll benefit in patches from Honda's commitment to finding more power. But they will also continue to be used as guinea pigs to assist Honda and particularly Red Bull. The driver lineup could go either way.

Mclaren- No Fernando to drag the car to olaces it shouldn't be. They have fingers in other pies and haven't shown they can make a success of things in F1 while all that is going on. They may well write off the next few seasons.

Williams- More misery to follow IMO. It will.be better than this season in terms of the points tally, but I cannot see anything other than last place.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 WCC Order?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:13 pm 
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This interview of Ocon made me want to post the article below relating to how he feels the chances of Racing Point are when it comes to midfield competition.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/140938/racing-point-will-close-massive-gap-to-big-teams

I do agree with Ocon. When Force India with a limited budget could be competitive enough, with Lawrence's added financial funding, the team should only get stronger.

Apart from Racing Point, I see Renault, Sauber & Haas as again main contenders for 4th best team. Not much hope for McLaren, Toro Rosso & Williams though.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 WCC Order?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:28 pm 
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Mercedes (I think dominant but I hope not)
Red Bull (if reliable, I think they will definitely have the 2nd fastest car)
Ferrari (I think 3rd fastest but may sneak 2nd as their drivers will be better point scorers)
Renault (Very close to Mclaren and Racing Point but their drivers will give them the edge)
Racing Point (Probably the 4th quickest car. Perez will consistently win Formula 1.5 but Stroll's points tally will let them down)
Mclaren (In the mix somewhere around here. I believe they designed a good car in 2017. I think they can at least get back to the midpack)
Sauber (Upward trajectory and an experienced driver will help)
Williams (I see them improving and will start the season strongly before falling behind Sauber)
Haas (I'm not sure they know why they were good this year and that's usually fatal)
STR (Only because I have to put someone last. I think their car will be competitive with the likes o Sauber, Williams and Haas but I don't rate Kvyat and Albon is an unknown)


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 WCC Order?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:28 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
This interview of Ocon made me want to post the article below relating to how he feels the chances of Racing Point are when it comes to midfield competition.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/140938/racing-point-will-close-massive-gap-to-big-teams

I do agree with Ocon. When Force India with a limited budget could be competitive enough, with Lawrence's added financial funding, the team should only get stronger.

Apart from Racing Point, I see Renault, Sauber & Haas as again main contenders for 4th best team. Not much hope for McLaren, Toro Rosso & Williams though.


I know you said 'should' but it's not as simple as more money equals increased performance. Even if they started boasting a budget comparable to Mercedes/Ferrari, it can take years to see a real benefit from it as there is a lot of time involved in getting the right people in key positions, increasing the workforce as a whole, improving facilities etc., and Renault's ongoing rebuild is a good example of that. I would argue they even had more space to grow, given how much further off the pace they were when Renault bought the team compared to where Force India are now. McLaren are another good example that having a big budget, amazing facilities and a large workforce doesn't automatically translate into success.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 WCC Order?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:16 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
This interview of Ocon made me want to post the article below relating to how he feels the chances of Racing Point are when it comes to midfield competition.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/140938/racing-point-will-close-massive-gap-to-big-teams

I do agree with Ocon. When Force India with a limited budget could be competitive enough, with Lawrence's added financial funding, the team should only get stronger.

Apart from Racing Point, I see Renault, Sauber & Haas as again main contenders for 4th best team. Not much hope for McLaren, Toro Rosso & Williams though.


I know you said 'should' but it's not as simple as more money equals increased performance. Even if they started boasting a budget comparable to Mercedes/Ferrari, it can take years to see a real benefit from it as there is a lot of time involved in getting the right people in key positions, increasing the workforce as a whole, improving facilities etc., and Renault's ongoing rebuild is a good example of that. I would argue they even had more space to grow, given how much further off the pace they were when Renault bought the team compared to where Force India are now. McLaren are another good example that having a big budget, amazing facilities and a large workforce doesn't automatically translate into success.


I know it would take a few years to reflect. Otmar too said the real result of their expanded financial clout will be more evident on their 2020 car. They plan to have a much bigger factory by 2021 as well. McLaren do have a bigger budget but in the past few years, they haven't extracted much from their car as much as Force India's workforce have done. Force India have been efficient & they shall continue to be and without limited budget that would cripple their output & creativity.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 WCC Order?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:42 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
This interview of Ocon made me want to post the article below relating to how he feels the chances of Racing Point are when it comes to midfield competition.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/140938/racing-point-will-close-massive-gap-to-big-teams

I do agree with Ocon. When Force India with a limited budget could be competitive enough, with Lawrence's added financial funding, the team should only get stronger.

Apart from Racing Point, I see Renault, Sauber & Haas as again main contenders for 4th best team. Not much hope for McLaren, Toro Rosso & Williams though.


I know you said 'should' but it's not as simple as more money equals increased performance. Even if they started boasting a budget comparable to Mercedes/Ferrari, it can take years to see a real benefit from it as there is a lot of time involved in getting the right people in key positions, increasing the workforce as a whole, improving facilities etc., and Renault's ongoing rebuild is a good example of that. I would argue they even had more space to grow, given how much further off the pace they were when Renault bought the team compared to where Force India are now. McLaren are another good example that having a big budget, amazing facilities and a large workforce doesn't automatically translate into success.


I know it would take a few years to reflect. Otmar too said the real result of their expanded financial clout will be more evident on their 2020 car. They plan to have a much bigger factory by 2021 as well. McLaren do have a bigger budget but in the past few years, they haven't extracted much from their car as much as Force India's workforce have done. Force India have been efficient & they shall continue to be and without limited budget that would cripple their output & creativity.


Actually an increased budget could possibly have an adverse affect on a persons/teams creativity & intuition. Sometimes people tend to put too much reliance on technological devices at the expense of and against their own knowledge, experience & "sixth sense", with the result being a poorer outcome at a greater expense than what they otherwise would have had.

Not saying this is what I think will happen to RP, just saying that the only thing an increase in investment can guarantee is that someone, in the short term at least, is going to have a lighter wallet.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 WCC Order?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:33 am 
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1. Mercedes
2. Ferrari
3. Renault
4. Red Bull
5. Haas
6. Sauber
7. McLaren
8. Racing Point
9. Toro Rosso
10. Williams

I can't see RB's first year with Honda being as good as 2018. Renault with Ricciardo should make the biggest gains.

Ferrari should cement 2nd in the WCC now Leclerc's on board, but still not enough to challenge Merc. Although that said, they do now have the stronger pairing.

I just don't have any confidence that Racing Point will continue the old Force India way of punching above their weight. McLaren should improve on 2018 but only slightly.

Williams will be nowhere. I just don't see Kubica being competitive at all and Russell should have him easily beat.

Haas will be consistent and Sauber should have a solid year with Kimi and Giovinazzi, although Kimi will beat him convincingly.

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 WCC Order?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:57 am 
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1. Mercedes
2. Ferrari
3. Red Bull
4. McLaren
5. Sauber
6. Renault
7. Racing Point
8. Haas
9. Toro Rosso
10. Williams

I don't see the status quo at the very top changing, in all honesty, although the top two positions could go either way since they're pretty close in performance now. But Ferrari's recent TP change might bring a little more instability that Mercedes won't have, so I see the latter possibly having the edge.

I think Red Bull will win some races but I don't see the Honda having the reliability of either Mercedes or Ferrari yet, not judging on this most recent season. But in terms of outright performance I think there's a chance that Red Bull might be an effective challenger to the top two, since the Honda PU is lighter and reportedly offers packaging advantages over the Renault. Really tough one to call for me but I suspect reliability may make the honeymoon short-lived!

There's a degree of wishful thinking with McLaren's position but I do think they have the ingredients to be there. They have excellent resources and facilities and they showed a lot of ingenuity in 2018 (as evidenced by the fact that a number of teams copied their ideas). I'm convinced/hopeful that their biggest issue in 2018 was the late switch from Honda to Renault, which severely compromised their car, and I have to think this won't be an issue in 2019 so I can't really see a reason why they can't at least be heading the midfield. Anything less would be a disappointment, quite frankly, as they spent much of 2018 working on testing for 2019 anyway by all accounts.

As did Sauber, by their own admission, which is why I'm bumping them up to 5th place. They have solid experience in Kimi and I'm expecting them to build quite handily on their 2018 base. I feel they are going to be very well prepared for 2019.

Renault are a bit of a mystery to me. I didn't really see anything that would suggest they improved throughout 2018, but they do have one of the best drivers on the grid in Ricciardo so anything could happen. I think the mid-field will be fiercely fought but ultimately I just find the team as a whole a bit nondescript so really hard to judge accurately.

Racing Point & Haas are a bit of a flip of the coin. Haas has the potential to be further up, but their drivers are a bit hit and miss for me and I don't think they'll get the best out of the car, while Racing Point still have things to prove with the new management in my view. Certainly they have the resources to do well.

Toro Rosso will be Red Bull's development team, as they are now. So basically they will win the award for most grid penalties and PUs used in a season, which will keep them near the bottom of the group. Whereas Williams looked completely and utterly lost in 2018 and I can't remember if they have anything in the pipeline that would suggest they would rapidly improve. How the mighty are fallen


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 WCC Order?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:38 am 
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So nobody is betting on a real surprise. You're really a bunch of cautious conservatives. Why would Renault not be able to make a (The) big step forward ? What, judging by last season, allows to think Honda will be good enough to help Red Bull stay at the front ? Why would Sauber not be able to produce one of the best cars ? Or McLaren ? Or Haas ? Or Racing-Up-To-The-Point ?
And on the drivers side of things, apart from Williams who, I fear, will see Kubica finish last at every race (hope I'm wrong), what team has a really weak line-up ? My personal view is that we may be surprised by Stroll (who may be better than the consensus tells us) and Norris (who may be worse than the consensus tells us).

So my risky betting order* - Proposition I (I suppose no equally placed contestants is allowed - See proposition II) :

1- Ferrari
2- Renault
3- Mercedes (hangover after too much success)
4- Haas
5- Sauber
6- McLaren (should be upper, but for Norris)
7- Red Bull (few finishes, but good ones when reaching the "1 to 10")
8- Racing-At-One-point (thanks to a Stroll win)
9- Toro Rosso (as many finishes in the points than RB, but among the lower ones)
10- Williams (whatever the quality of the car - except if it's the best of them all - very few odd points, thanks to Russell)

Proposition II (Classified by groups of even teams) :
1- Ferrari - Renault
2- Mercedes - Hass
3- Sauber - McLaren - Red Bull - Racing-Point-Of-No-Return
4- Toro Rosso
5- Williams (I'll light a candle to be proved wrong on this one)

*Please, note that I'll accept to be completly wrong (which is, may be, a safer bet)

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 Post subject: Re: 2019 Team Hierarchy!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:02 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
One of Force India's sponsor's (Acronis) head has said with the team getting financial backing, the team's budget is going to triple in 2019. This is a welcome news who've always punched above their weight. With a bigger budget, they should develop a great car.
http://www.grandprix.com/news/sponsor-says-force-india-budget-to-triple.html

Renault, Haas & Sauber are also expected to be getting stronger next year though.


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 Post subject: Re: 2019 WCC Order?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:10 pm 
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Alright I will give this a go:-

1. Mercedes - Like last year Mercedes will not have the fastest car but I'm merely showing bias and hoping that Hamilton will be dominant again.

2. Ferrari - Potentially yet again they will have a car good enough to win the WCC it just takes Vettel to cut out the mistakes and I believe Leclerc will be stronger than Kimi, they could well win it.

3. Red Bull - I think there will be more potential for them to win races because the Honda engine will be stronger than the Renault, maybe Verstappen can improve on his 2 wins of previous years if he cuts out the mistakes, however I think the Honda engine will not be reliable enough to mount a challenge on Mercedes or Ferrari but Red Bull will still be far superior to the teams below them.

4. Renault - Although they don't have the amount of backing of the top 3 teams you can see the massive progress they have made recently and as a works team with a history of success when they put their minds to it coupled with stronger driver pairing than the other midfield teams, I have them as a comfortable 4th placed team.

5. Haas - On to the upper midfield and the best of a poor bunch driver wise, I wouldn't be a fan of either Grosjean or KMag but they do have the most experience and Grosjean can be really quick, with better drivers they might challenge Renault?

6. Sauber - I see them as having a decent car and Kimi is a reliable points scorer but the jury is out on Giovinazzi.

7. Racing Point - With Ocon in the team and with a much increased budget I would have them giving Renault a problem, with Stroll I have them 7th.

8. McLaren - Unlike some I don't see the miracle improvement and I'm not overly convinced by the drivers, they will improve but the teams above are strong and improving.

9. STR - In respect to Williams I'm edging towards the car rather than the drivers, the car should be decent with shared parts with Red Bull but a big question mark on the drivers.

10. Williams - Can Williams really turn things around plus they start the season with basically two rookie drivers although with Russell I would say he has great potential, it's hard to know what is Kubica's level nowadays.

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