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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:15 pm 
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https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13980 ... ver-market

Very interesting read. Before anyone tries to turn this into some kind of bash thread, it's not that type of thread and Hamilton didn't express anything but respect for Alonso in the article. He does, however, point out that, in his opinion, Alonso really misplayed his hand. Alonso thought that he had more power than he actually did and as soon as he bolted from Ferrari, the door was locked behind him.

Do you agree with these sentiments? It brings to mind the story from earlier this year where Alonso was at odds with Christian Horner over whether or not he was ever offered a seat at RBR. Has Alonso's ego been his biggest weakness in terms of managing his own career?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:18 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Has Alonso's ego been his biggest weakness in terms of managing his own career?
Bingo. :nod:

I'm reminded of an old adage, "When you find yourself at the bottom of a deep hole, don't dig." Smart people realize that, egos don't.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:47 pm 
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Hindsight is 20/20.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:59 pm 
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Leaving Ferrari was the only really bad decision he made. Leaving Renault for Mclaren should have been a masterstroke, it didn't work out. Rejoining Renault wasn't ideal, but he signed his Ferrari deal in 2008 so was just biding his time.

Joining Ferrari looked a good decision. He couldn't have oredicted Red Bull's success. Many assumed 2009 was an aberration and that Ferrari and Mclaren would be back on top in 2010.

But leaving Ferrari to rejoin Mclaren was inexusable. Honda were never going to be able to start a year late in a new development era and be competitive with Mercedes who had been preparing for hybrids for years before 2014. It has been a waste of 4 seasons.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:00 am 
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There is a point. In the last 10 years we have had 4 teams that you could consider top seats - Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes and Red Bull. When Alonso decided he was out of Ferrari, that left a struggling McLaren, Mercedes and Red Bull. Mercedes has two quick drivers who were still on good terms at that point and both seemed to be very quick. So surely he must have been very realistically aware that an opening there wasn't all that likely. Tie in that Hamilton had just signed a year before and the 2007 bad blood and so it seems doubly unlikely. Red Bull, have more of a promote your own thing going on, it's not DC and Webber anymore who drove for other places. Again, surely he must have known it was a seemingly outside possibility. I know we've had conflicting reports about Red Bull and Alonso, and obviously, Alonso is privy to a lot more information than I am, but still.

So that leaves staying at Ferrari vs McLaren. While McLaren has shown to not work out well, I don't think you could have anticipated they'd be what they have been. I thought they'd be competitive with Honda. I definitely did not think they'd be trundling around barely scoring points for a few years. While it didn't work out, with the information available at the time, I don't really think it was a bad call.

So, in summary, if Alonso quit on Ferrari hoping to get Mercedes or Red Bull, he probably has mismanaged his career because I don't see a situation where he gets those seats. If Alonso thought McLaren-Honda as a #1 driver and a big name team/engine supplier behind them could be a good shot for a world title, it's worked out bad but wasn't really a bad decision at the time of making it. If Alonso did believe he was king of the drivers market enough to think he could walk into almost any seat he wanted, I'd call that hubris.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:29 am 
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Well after it was announced that Alonso was leaving Ferrari to be replaced by Vettel he did say that he held all the cards and could drive wherever he wanted to, I believed he just said that to save face and big himself up but it sounds like he actually believes the things that he said so it looks like he's overestimated his importance.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:29 am 
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Fortunately, this not an Alonso "bash thread", just another opportunity for helpful critique.
;)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:49 am 
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He left Ferrari because he was fed up at some of the criticism he was receiving from some of the Ferrari hierarchy. He also couldn't have been too pleased when they brought in Raikonnen, another world champion. I have to agree with Lewis; he thought he could go wherever he wanted. Because surely he would have sucked it up and stayed had he known there were absolutely no rooms at the other inns. I'm sure he knew that Mclaren would be a project, but couldn't have anticipated how low they sunk. It's a shame really. But it seems the racing Gods are no longer looking after Alonso. Nowadays he can't even complete a full race distance, the car is awful, and he can't even get an Indy drive. It's a good thing he turned down Formula E, he doesn't belong there. I wonder if he will ever make it back to F1 and be in a good car again. He might be in his 40s when that happens.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:44 am 
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:thumbup: kleefton

And with hindsight being 20/20, look at how much better Honda is doing compared to when working with McLaren.
The one thing I can say with all certainty is that the truly great manufacturers of almost anything, will inevitably suffer through periods of mediocrity,
BUT, the best companies work hard and stay the course to bounce back. Honda is one such company and I never once thought they wouldn't turn things around.
The first thing they did right was not over react initially to all the issues their PU's were experiencing, and allowed Hasegawa to continue on with the project until
they exhausted all possibilities under his leadership. However, they weren't dead set on any one person running the F1 engine program and were looking to find
a proper solution so they can produce better, more reliable units. To do so they decided to try a different approach, much like how teams are beginning to split
the role of Team Principal between 2 people. Honda promoted Toyoharu Tanabe to technical director who is on-hand at all the races and monitors everything with
his staff, and Yasuaki Asaki is in charge of development at the factory.

Sadly, McLaren's demands for a tighter package made it difficult to cool the engine and the team & Alonso's constant finger pointing led to the demise of the
partnership and now Toro Rosso is reaping the benefits of Honda's continued dedication and further development. And while I realize they experienced 4 woeful
years together, this ain't the 1980's anymore and technology today is such that it's increasingly difficult for anyone to design and engineer any product to the
most elite specifications, but the better ones eventually figure it out at some point or another, so the whole win today or nothing mentality has to end. These days,
with the stringent regulations and lack of testing, it takes far longer to claw back performance than it did in eras past. And the limitation on number of PU's needs
to be increased to at least 6. This way most of the units will only have to run 3 races and a couple will run 4 so they don't have to limit the power output as much.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:48 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Sadly, McLaren's demands for a tighter package made it difficult to cool the engine and the team & Alonso's constant finger pointing led to the demise of the
partnership and now Toro Rosso is reaping the benefits of Honda's continued dedication and further development.

Toro Rosso is currently 9th in the WCC, their worst standing since 2012: only Williams is behind them, and every single Renault team is ahead. What benefit are they supposedly reaping?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:19 am 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Sadly, McLaren's demands for a tighter package made it difficult to cool the engine and the team & Alonso's constant finger pointing led to the demise of the
partnership and now Toro Rosso is reaping the benefits of Honda's continued dedication and further development.

Toro Rosso is currently 9th in the WCC, their worst standing since 2012: only Williams is behind them, and every single Renault team is ahead. What benefit are they supposedly reaping?


Yeah can someone please explain to me where all this belief in Honda's sudden surge from the outhouse to the penthouse since linking with RB is coming from?

Where's the evidence other than the not unexpected talking up of next years engine from RB? I mean, we'd hardly expect Marko to be saying " It looks like even at this early stage the Honda PU will struggle to improve on this years performance" now would we so the positive spin everyone at RB is peddling should surprise no-one.

Obviously I could be wrong but what issues have teaming up with RB so sensationally fixed in less than a year that has people so completely convinced they'll be winning races next year, that millions of dollars & 3 years with McLaren didn't?

If RB are really that fantastic then why didn't they fix the power issues they whinged so incessantly about for 8 yrs with Renault even when they had both RB teams running them?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:52 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Sadly, McLaren's demands for a tighter package made it difficult to cool the engine and the team & Alonso's constant finger pointing led to the demise of the
partnership and now Toro Rosso is reaping the benefits of Honda's continued dedication and further development.

Toro Rosso is currently 9th in the WCC, their worst standing since 2012: only Williams is behind them, and every single Renault team is ahead. What benefit are they supposedly reaping?



The drop to 9th is down to the Haas being a Ferrari lite and Sauber's improvements also with a little help from Ferrari. With a better second driver they would still be close to last years points total despite those improvements made by others.

We also have to consider that Honda have been really using Torro Rosso as a guinea pig in preparation for Red Bull. They have been changing components etc constantly to help in preparation for next season.

So TR probably haven't really reaped the benefit of this new relationship yet, but longer term they might well do.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:58 pm 
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The strange thing is why on earth would he feel the need to comment on Alonsons career at all?
Alonso is by many seen as the best off this generation, might be that.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:14 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
The strange thing is why on earth would he feel the need to comment on Alonsons career at all?
Alonso is by many seen as the best off this generation, might be that.


The strange thing is you don't seem to grasp that Hamilton; like every other F1 driver, is asked questions and then answers them. I'm sure this has been explained to you before?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:15 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
The strange thing is why on earth would he feel the need to comment on Alonsons career at all?
Alonso is by many seen as the best off this generation, might be that.


I would bet it was because he was asked about it.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:53 pm 
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Reading an article in Autosport from that time, I find it interesting that the editor thought it was McLaren who controlled the driver market (and according to Gary Anderson it was McLaren who were actively trying to get Alonso to sign), while Hamilton seems to think it was Alonso who thought he did. I have no idea which of these views is correct, but I do find the distinction interesting.

How about this: what if Alonso wasn't all that clear about precisely what he was "promised" in his discussions with McLaren, Red Bull (mainly the previous year and Ferrari? And how would his knowledge of the languages involved have influenced his understanding of what was on offer. Or whether anything other than McLaren was really on offer at all? Ronspeak is a famous example, but there may be other variants, and some of the people involved might be less clear in English than they, or the drivers they speak with, believe. Yes, contract lawyers will be involved later on, but at the time of first discussions, impressions may well have been formed between driver and team principal.

Edited for typing errors. :blush:

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Last edited by Fiki on Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:30 pm 
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I guess my main curiosity here is whether Alonso committed the cardinal sin for any adult with a job (quitting your job before you've actually secured a new one). I wasn't previously aware of his efforts to secure a seat with Red Bull to replace Vettel at that time. If the move to McLaren was basically just a fall-back option, that is really unfortunate. Hindsight almost makes it seem like he lost a game of musical chairs during that window of time when the three top dogs in the sport (Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel) all changed teams.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:01 pm 
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I am not sure why people are talking about hindsight.
I said the things Hamilton is saying many years ago and the moment Alonso signed for McLaren, long before we ever witnessed the "power" of the Honda engine I predicted that It was the beginning of the end for him.

If I could see it, why the many so called "experts" could not? We have had countless of "Alonso to Red Bull" "Alonso to Mercedes" poll threads to which I responded with a fat NO.

He misplayed his hand and his Indy adventure to please his ego and his fans was just the icing on the cake. So there is no need to beg teams to take him on-board when he has shown time and time again to bite the hands that feed him.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:57 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
If I could see it, why the many so called "experts" could not?
I think because, unlike you, we're all pushrods. ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:02 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Sadly, McLaren's demands for a tighter package made it difficult to cool the engine and the team & Alonso's constant finger pointing led to the demise of the
partnership and now Toro Rosso is reaping the benefits of Honda's continued dedication and further development.

Toro Rosso is currently 9th in the WCC, their worst standing since 2012: only Williams is behind them, and every single Renault team is ahead. What benefit are they supposedly reaping?

The drop to 9th is down to the Haas being a Ferrari lite

This is complete and utter BS, and I'm tired of people repeating it. Prove it or put it on a shelf. It doesn't have the same good tracks as a Ferrari. It doesn't have the same strengths and weaknesses as a Ferrari. It doesn't even have the same aero philosophy as a Ferrari. Why? Because it's not a ******* Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:21 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
He left Ferrari because he was fed up at some of the criticism he was receiving from some of the Ferrari hierarchy. He also couldn't have been too pleased when they brought in Raikonnen, another world champion. I have to agree with Lewis; he thought he could go wherever he wanted. Because surely he would have sucked it up and stayed had he known there were absolutely no rooms at the other inns. I'm sure he knew that Mclaren would be a project, but couldn't have anticipated how low they sunk. It's a shame really. But it seems the racing Gods are no longer looking after Alonso. Nowadays he can't even complete a full race distance, the car is awful, and he can't even get an Indy drive. It's a good thing he turned down Formula E, he doesn't belong there. I wonder if he will ever make it back to F1 and be in a good car again. He might be in his 40s when that happens.

He clearly wasn't happy with the signing of Kimi but that was done because Alonso wanted to leave Ferrari, he got a verbal agreement from LDM that he could leave Ferrari after 2014, 2 years sort of his contract, if Ferrari under perfomed in 2014.

Kimi had performed well at Lotus in 2012 an 2013 and as a former Ferrari WDC he was seen as a safe pair hands going forward if Alonso was to leave.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:30 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
The strange thing is why on earth would he feel the need to comment on Alonsons career at all?
Alonso is by many seen as the best off this generation, might be that.


The strange thing is you don't seem to grasp that Hamilton; like every other F1 driver, is asked questions and then answers them. I'm sure this has been explained to you before?

Also he's not critcising Alonso as a driver but just suggesting why things went wrong for him.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:44 am 
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Exediron wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Sadly, McLaren's demands for a tighter package made it difficult to cool the engine and the team & Alonso's constant finger pointing led to the demise of the
partnership and now Toro Rosso is reaping the benefits of Honda's continued dedication and further development.

Toro Rosso is currently 9th in the WCC, their worst standing since 2012: only Williams is behind them, and every single Renault team is ahead. What benefit are they supposedly reaping?

The drop to 9th is down to the Haas being a Ferrari lite

This is complete and utter BS, and I'm tired of people repeating it. Prove it or put it on a shelf. It doesn't have the same good tracks as a Ferrari. It doesn't have the same strengths and weaknesses as a Ferrari. It doesn't even have the same aero philosophy as a Ferrari. Why? Because it's not a ******* Ferrari.


Funnily enough the Haas F1 team aren't too keen on me examining their car. They certainly had significant assistance from Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:01 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Sadly, McLaren's demands for a tighter package made it difficult to cool the engine and the team & Alonso's constant finger pointing led to the demise of the
partnership and now Toro Rosso is reaping the benefits of Honda's continued dedication and further development.

Toro Rosso is currently 9th in the WCC, their worst standing since 2012: only Williams is behind them, and every single Renault team is ahead. What benefit are they supposedly reaping?

The drop to 9th is down to the Haas being a Ferrari lite

This is complete and utter BS, and I'm tired of people repeating it. Prove it or put it on a shelf. It doesn't have the same good tracks as a Ferrari. It doesn't have the same strengths and weaknesses as a Ferrari. It doesn't even have the same aero philosophy as a Ferrari. Why? Because it's not a ******* Ferrari.


Funnily enough the Haas F1 team aren't too keen on me examining their car. They certainly had significant assistance from Ferrari.

The only assistance they certainly had/have is the parts they are allowed to buy off Ferrari, anything else is unsubstantiated opinion as it stands.
You have your opinion, you're allowed that and people will respect it, you just need to acknowledge that without actual factual evidence it will never be more than opinion...


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:38 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Sadly, McLaren's demands for a tighter package made it difficult to cool the engine and the team & Alonso's constant finger pointing led to the demise of the
partnership and now Toro Rosso is reaping the benefits of Honda's continued dedication and further development.

Toro Rosso is currently 9th in the WCC, their worst standing since 2012: only Williams is behind them, and every single Renault team is ahead. What benefit are they supposedly reaping?

The drop to 9th is down to the Haas being a Ferrari lite

This is complete and utter BS, and I'm tired of people repeating it. Prove it or put it on a shelf. It doesn't have the same good tracks as a Ferrari. It doesn't have the same strengths and weaknesses as a Ferrari. It doesn't even have the same aero philosophy as a Ferrari. Why? Because it's not a ******* Ferrari.

Funnily enough the Haas F1 team aren't too keen on me examining their car. They certainly had significant assistance from Ferrari.

If the Haas was a Ferrari copy, or designed by Ferrari, why would a part as fundamental to the aero as the floor have been designed outside the FIA's parameters?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:15 pm 
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Alonso had no play in 2014, really. In fact, I wouldn't say a driver who is focused on winning the WDC had a play in 2014 so it's all futile to overanalyze.

Leaving Ferrari, even as a fan of the team I can concede that it was an understandable decision. The team was no match for his quality at this point of time. Especially 2012 was very hurtful for him, I imagine. After a dreadful start in terms of car performance, they managed to claw that back around Spain GP, only to lose after the European rounds. I believe that Ferrari didn't bring a working update on the rear of the car after Spa. People often forget that Ferrari only had 1 weekend where they were the fastest, Spain. And that was the case only because McLaren underfueled Lewis in qualy. Of course, they bottled thanks to Charles Pic and partly a bad strategy.

2013 started decent thanks to Ferrari lucking into a great marshmallow (tyre) management chassis. They were already losing significant ground to Mercedes, Lotus and RBR by the British GP and Pirelli changing the tyres to the boring non-exploding type didn't help. Another season that was a write-off by the mid-point, like 2011.

2014 was yet another dreadful year. Domenicalli (deservedly) paid the price, Mattiacci came to be the hatchet man and no one knew what's next for Ferrari. Sure, they improved in 2015 & 16 but it's not like they were in the title hunt. Alonso would have been any closer, realistically, to the title. I know he's great, even amazing, but he was not dragging that Ferrari to challenge for a title in 15' nor in 16'.

2017 & 18 - I am 100% he would have mounted a better challenge compared to Vettel and possibly could have stolen a title. But more importantly, after the 5 years of disappointment, I have hard time imagining he would stuck around after 2015 or 2016.

Hamilton can speak all he wants about Alonso making a wrong decision in 2014 but in the first 3 years of the hybrid era there was no right decision as nobody could even dream of matching the Mercedes. All-in-all Fernando paid the price for not having an inhumane amount of patience with Ferrari (waiting until 2017) and Ferrari paid the price of under-performing for 5 (or 7) years and when they had the car to challenge, they didn't have the driver to bring the silverware.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:22 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I guess my main curiosity here is whether Alonso committed the cardinal sin for any adult with a job (quitting your job before you've actually secured a new one). I wasn't previously aware of his efforts to secure a seat with Red Bull to replace Vettel at that time. If the move to McLaren was basically just a fall-back option, that is really unfortunate. Hindsight almost makes it seem like he lost a game of musical chairs during that window of time when the three top dogs in the sport (Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel) all changed teams.


Either were Red Bull and Alonso as neither mentioned it recently as one of the years they talked. Nor does Marko mention it when discussing it back in 2014 so I think Lewis may have been mistaken on that one..

http://www.thisisf1.com/2014/10/07/red- ... ren-bound/


It was pretty common knowledge Honda wanted him and McLaren wanted a big name. https://www.wheels24.co.za/News/Alonso- ... s-20140903
https://www.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOne/H ... a-20140922



I think all the "I can go anywhere talk" was because his release from Ferrari wasn't official yet as it was rumoured Marco had broken a condition of his contract by approaching Seb after their argument. Most top drivers have a clause that means teams have to inform them if they approach certain drivers and if this was broken then Alonso goes from being released for free to being owed money, substantial money, so its in his interest to drag his heels until he gets comped but I don't think anyone was in doubt as to where he was going.

The gamble looks awful in hindsight but it simply gave him two more chances at a title that he correctly deduced Ferrari couldn't give him in 2015 and 2016 in his remaining contract. Everyone was split turbo drunk that summer thinking it was the silver bullet and Honda confirmed they had one. It was also (wrongly) thought a year on the sidelines learning from others mistakes was actually an advantage at the time and Honda's history with turbo's is as good as anyone so while he didn't know how competitive they'd be it was still 2 years and 2 attempts at a title he knew he wasn't getting at Ferrari.

Where he was spectacularly wrong was when he said even if they don't hit the ground running they'd be the first to catch Mercedes anyway. So in his mind it gave him two free shots he didn't have with Ferrari and even if they (Honda) get it wrong they'd still get it right before Ferrari could so he wasn't losing anything and that's what went so badly wrong as Honda knew nothing about the electrical side and snookered themselves for lean burn capability while Mahle brought TJI to Ferrari after Alonso left and it turned both manufacturers fortunes on its head as Ferrari didn't have to do any time consuming R&D on lean burn and they'd learnt the oil trick from Cornebois on Jan 1st 2015. Meanwhile McHonda drowned.

His release from Ferrari obviously shut the door behind him like Lewis says, especially if he did demand some severance money just to get back at Marko which is my own belief but the actual gamble to McHonda I don't think was the craziest decision at all at the time, it just happened to all fall against him from McLaren's own failures, Honda's failures, Mahle turning up and helping Ferrari, new combustion chief Cornebois coming off gardening leave and bringing Mercedes oil secrets with him, Allison finding the loophole that killed the token system and Sergio being a great boss that got his wallet out to kit Maranello out to the same standard as MK and Brackley, unlike LdM did with MK and Woking post the testing ban when Fiorano became all but obsolete.

All things Alonso couldn't know at the time so for him I think it was relatively straightforward in that he thought he was getting 2 free potential shots at a title he couldn't get at Ferrari and if not McHonda would still catch Mercedes first. Technically he was right with the first part but the second part went way worse than anyone thought and here we are with only two competitive teams, one that Alonso dumped and other with Lewis already there so there's no room at the inn.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:57 pm 
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Alonso did not scrabble in the bottom of his desk draw looking for that old letter from a team, he has a full staff to look after his business. I have to wonder how well his staff looked after him. Its like a performer who is told to sign a record contract that is a bad option.

His 'team' and I do not mean race team, seem to have failed him several times


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:28 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Sadly, McLaren's demands for a tighter package made it difficult to cool the engine and the team & Alonso's constant finger pointing led to the demise of the
partnership and now Toro Rosso is reaping the benefits of Honda's continued dedication and further development.

Toro Rosso is currently 9th in the WCC, their worst standing since 2012: only Williams is behind them, and every single Renault team is ahead. What benefit are they supposedly reaping?


this is only part of the picture. TR is pretty clearly faster than a lot of other teams, the drivers are getting times much better than McLaren and others. They keep swapping engines and getting penalties because they are doing R&D for next year for RBR. If they really cared, they wouldn't be switching them out, so they are sacrificing this year for next year. The fact that Hartley is getting faster times than Alonso, is very telling. They may be 9th, but right now, they are far better, based on speed alone.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:26 pm 
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rodH wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Sadly, McLaren's demands for a tighter package made it difficult to cool the engine and the team & Alonso's constant finger pointing led to the demise of the
partnership and now Toro Rosso is reaping the benefits of Honda's continued dedication and further development.

Toro Rosso is currently 9th in the WCC, their worst standing since 2012: only Williams is behind them, and every single Renault team is ahead. What benefit are they supposedly reaping?


this is only part of the picture. TR is pretty clearly faster than a lot of other teams, the drivers are getting times much better than McLaren and others. They keep swapping engines and getting penalties because they are doing R&D for next year for RBR. If they really cared, they wouldn't be switching them out, so they are sacrificing this year for next year. The fact that Hartley is getting faster times than Alonso, is very telling. They may be 9th, but right now, they are far better, based on speed alone.


Let's not forget that McLaren gave up on bringing updates on their car since Spain. There are some aerodynamics involved on why TR are ahead of McLaren as well.


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