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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:14 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.


So with a far better engine, DRS and far fresher tires, he could barely overtake. Doesn't sound like someone who had a 3 sec/lap advantage to me. If he had that sort of advantage, he'd have pulled up alongside and overtook Verstappen well before the first corner.

Look how easily Verstappen overtook Hamilton, and he wasn't anywhere near 3sec/lap faster than Lewis.

Not he had lost 6 seconds, he would have lost a further 6 seconds staying behind.

Edit
Although backmarkers are shown blue flags so they don't interfere with the leaders race is it right that they should happily sit behind a slower car that affects their race just because it's a leader?


They should overtake, without screwing up the leaders' race. Is it really that hard for you to understand the difference? That move required Max to change his line to make the overtake work. That's not his job. Ocon should've just overtook him on the straight the next lap, and breezed by. He was a complete and utter knob today.

For Ocon's car to be on the outside like it was Verstappen must have been defending the inside going into the corner?

It makes it harder to pass safely if the leader is defending for all his worth?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:18 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
@Mikey - Any other driver would've let Ocon through but because Max has some superiority complex which didn't let him allow a backmarker go past him to unlap himself.


Give it a break with the "superiority" rubbish. You also don't know if any other driver would have let Ocon though, Ocon mucked up and the penalty proved that. I'm not even a fan of Verstappen but it seems like most people are just finding any excuse to have a go at him, at least Hamilton has someone to past the baton onto.

What is being said though is why put yourself in a position were a backmarker can muck up and ruin your race?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:19 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
@Mikey - Any other driver would've let Ocon through but because Max has some superiority complex which didn't let him allow a backmarker go past him to unlap himself.


Give it a break with the "superiority" rubbish. You also don't know if any other driver would have let Ocon though, Ocon mucked up and the penalty proved that. I'm not even a fan of Verstappen but it seems like most people are just finding any excuse to have a go at him, at least Hamilton has someone to past the baton onto.


Can You justify Max hittin into the no.2 pollard after Mexican qualy when Ricciardo beat him to the pole? Max's anguish was as similar to yesterday. He in Mexico again looked just a little way off from shoving someone as well!


I don't really give a dam about Max hitting the no2 bollard, it's not really a big deal. He was a disappointed driver who looked set for pole, I would rather that than Kimi who grumbles at nearly everything and struggles to find emotion. A few shoves is nothing in my eyes, hopefully Verstappen has to do the same punishment as Vettel and attend an FIA meeting through video call, I'll keep away from that thread.


This is what Max had said after Danny beat him to Pole in Mexico in an interview:
“I could literally do some damage to somebody if somebody would say something wrong to me after qualifying, that angry I was.” I also remember the next day during the driver's parade he had said he hardly slept during the night because of being beaten by Danny.


He was just angry, saying it and doing it are 2 different things. You don't think any other driver has been that angry before? Verstappen didn't need to open his mouth because there are too many people who get easily offended but I bet everyone on the grid has been that angry in their racing careers apart from maybe Kimi and Bottas.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:21 pm 
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CC78AMG wrote:
Whatever your opinion is. The only one that really matters is Charlie Whiting's opinion. Here is his:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/12/oco ... n-whiting/

I don't have a problem with the apportion of blame given the circumstances, however a point is being made about how sensible was it for Verstappen to be fighting with a backmarker?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:34 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.


Add to this that Verstappen was informed by his team that Ocon would unlap himself. Completely stupid by Verstappen to make a duel out of it.

So the team did inform Verstappen of the situation, it just makes what Verstappen did seem even more unnecessary.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:36 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.


Add to this that Verstappen was informed by his team that Ocon would unlap himself. Completely stupid by Verstappen to make a duel out of it.


I don't think anyone expects Ocon who is two laps down to go racing like his challenging for the race win into turn 2. If you really want to unlap yourself then use some common sense and do it down the straight with slipstream and DRS.

Is that not what Ocon did but Verstappen defended the inside line?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
CC78AMG wrote:
Whatever your opinion is. The only one that really matters is Charlie Whiting's opinion. Here is his:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/12/oco ... n-whiting/

I don't have a problem with the apportion of blame given the circumstances, however a point is being made about how sensible was it for Verstappen to be fighting with a backmarker?


Isn't it more interesting why Ocon moved over for Merc earlier this season when told so, but this time nearly took Verstappen out while batteling the Mercs?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
CC78AMG wrote:
Whatever your opinion is. The only one that really matters is Charlie Whiting's opinion. Here is his:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/12/oco ... n-whiting/

I don't have a problem with the apportion of blame given the circumstances, however a point is being made about how sensible was it for Verstappen to be fighting with a backmarker?


He didn't have much choice by the look of it. He either lets him go for a few laps and his own pace suffers and could hurt his tyres behind Ocon, the FI isn't going to leave the RB in the dust, and Lewis can close up or he fights all out and ruins his tyres to try and stay ahead of him. Either way Ocon has done Mercedes a huge favour by engaging Max.

Nice no lose situation for Ocon down in the backmarkers and one he'd never attempt if it was a Merc in the lead.

Message will be passed to the STR boys for next time and it opens up the option for tactical pit stops where you pit your sister teams car with the softest options just as he's going to get lapped and then let them aggressively race the lapping car. The lapping car then will have to back out of any 50-50 apparently so it will be a handy tool moving forward.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.


Add to this that Verstappen was informed by his team that Ocon would unlap himself. Completely stupid by Verstappen to make a duel out of it.


I don't think anyone expects Ocon who is two laps down to go racing like his challenging for the race win into turn 2. If you really want to unlap yourself then use some common sense and do it down the straight with slipstream and DRS.

Is that not what Ocon did but Verstappen defended the inside line?


Yep and then thought he would keep going for it through turns 2 and 3 when he should have backed out then have another try in the DRS zone. Try and pass the leader if you really have to but keep it safe and clean.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:19 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
They do have a history (probably an unpleasant one) which was a big contributing factor I feel. Verstappen clashing with Ocon during their F3 days:


Hi UnlikeUday, my browser can't see tweets at work, is it possible to share it as an image?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:21 pm 
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Firstly if a backmarker wants to unlap themselves it is his responsibility to do so without risk. He is not entitled to fight for track position and impede the race leaders.

Secondly there is no point doing so unless you are significantly faster and are able to pull away afterwards, otherwise you would just be blue flagged.

Any decent driver would have apologised for taking out the race leader. Instead Ocon stood there with a cheesy grin like he's done nothing wrong.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:45 pm 
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not taking sides, just something in this this situation i found humorous
during the sit down pc, verstappen said...you see who got penalized, so that's who was wrong (paraphrasing) i had to laugh at that, after all the times verstappen has been penalized, and then went off about the stewards and other drivers being wrong.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:47 pm 
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pc27b wrote:
not taking sides, just something in this this situation i found humorous
during the sit down pc, verstappen said...you see who got penalized, so that's who was wrong (paraphrasing) i had to laugh at that, after all the times verstappen has been penalized, and then went off about the stewards and other drivers being wrong.

Indeed the drivers are no different to some of us. :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
pc27b wrote:
not taking sides, just something in this this situation i found humorous
during the sit down pc, verstappen said...you see who got penalized, so that's who was wrong (paraphrasing) i had to laugh at that, after all the times verstappen has been penalized, and then went off about the stewards and other drivers being wrong.

Indeed the drivers are no different to some of us. :lol:

In fact, I think half of them are posters here!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:11 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.


Add to this that Verstappen was informed by his team that Ocon would unlap himself. Completely stupid by Verstappen to make a duel out of it.


I don't think anyone expects Ocon who is two laps down to go racing like his challenging for the race win into turn 2. If you really want to unlap yourself then use some common sense and do it down the straight with slipstream and DRS.

Is that not what Ocon did but Verstappen defended the inside line?


Yep and then thought he would keep going for it through turns 2 and 3 when he should have backed out then have another try in the DRS zone. Try and pass the leader if you really have to but keep it safe and clean.


So we absolutely sure that if a back marker tried to DRS Max on the straight that Max wouldn't risk another accident rather than let him past?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Understanding more of the context of the crash, I feel Max is wholey to blame.

Ocon was behind Max for a couple of laps, catching at 3 seconds per lap, he gained permission from his team to unlap himself, with this message being relayed to Max.

During the overtake, Ocon got in front, and as the turn straightened Max edged about a wheel diameter in front. It was at this point Max closed the door with Ocon alongside. It was unecessary to be racing against a lapped car running 3 secs a lap faster. Ocon had no where to go, he was already on the kerb.


[EDIT] After reading the actual lap times, no idea where the 3 seconds a lap came from, my bad taking other posts at face value.
Still feel Max turned in necessarily on Ocon, but with less mitigation on Ocons side now.


Last edited by yodasarmpit on Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:15 pm 
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Whatever the rights and wrongs of Ocon trying to unlap himself, I find it idiotic of Max to just slam the door shut on a car that was pretty level to him going into the corner. Seriously, where did he think Ocon was going to go?

I also find Charlies comments a bit strange when he says it doesn't matter that it was an unlapping attempt on the leader, Ocon was to blame anyway for causing the collision.
IMHO he was very close to completely alongside and that usually entitles the car overtaking to be given space.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:33 pm 
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yodasarmpit wrote:
Understanding more of the context of the crash, I feel Max is wholey to blame.

Ocon was behind Max for a couple of laps, catching at 3 seconds per lap, he gained permission from his team to unlap himself, with this message being relayed to Max.

During the overtake, Ocon got in front, and as the turn straightened Max edged about a wheel diameter in front. It was at this point Max closed the door with Ocon alongside. It was unecessary to be racing against a lapped car running 3 secs a lap faster. Ocon had no where to go, he was already on the kerb.


I thought it was just 1 lap and it was 0.464. 1 of 3 laps in the race Ocon was quicker, the other 2 was one lap when the crash happened and the other when Ocon pit again and beat Verstappen by 0.025.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:41 pm 
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Yeah 3s a lap is pure fantasy.

Lap chart comparison shows the truth before Ocon decided its a Red Bull so he can get involved with it instead of letting him go.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... ban%20Ocon

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:48 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
In fact, I think half of them are posters here!!!

Obviously, though some thick headed aliases show up here and there, Max the Menace has not yet registered...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:52 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Whatever the rights and wrongs of Ocon trying to unlap himself, I find it idiotic of Max to just slam the door shut on a car that was pretty level to him going into the corner. Seriously, where did he think Ocon was going to go?

I also find Charlies comments a bit strange when he says it doesn't matter that it was an unlapping attempt on the leader, Ocon was to blame anyway for causing the collision.
IMHO he was very close to completely alongside and that usually entitles the car overtaking to be given space.


Yes I thought that if it had been a championship contender on the same lap would the outcome have been different. I get the feeling Ocon thought, its a dead race, we have history, I'm not racing next year so I'm going for it and Verstappen thought I'm race leader he can't touch me have some of this.

Ocon's fault but Verstappen did himself in a bit!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:56 pm 
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CC78AMG wrote:
Whatever your opinion is. The only one that really matters is Charlie Whiting's opinion. Here is his:

https://www.racefans.net/2018/11/12/oco ... n-whiting/


Basically says exactly what I did.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:57 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

Add to this that Verstappen was informed by his team that Ocon would unlap himself. Completely stupid by Verstappen to make a duel out of it.


I don't think anyone expects Ocon who is two laps down to go racing like his challenging for the race win into turn 2. If you really want to unlap yourself then use some common sense and do it down the straight with slipstream and DRS.

Is that not what Ocon did but Verstappen defended the inside line?


Yep and then thought he would keep going for it through turns 2 and 3 when he should have backed out then have another try in the DRS zone. Try and pass the leader if you really have to but keep it safe and clean.


So we absolutely sure that if a back marker tried to DRS Max on the straight that Max wouldn't risk another accident rather than let him past?


Max didnt risk anything and didnt want to lose any time to Hamilton. If Ocon was that much quicker he would have been able to get past pretty easy. Max did nothing wrong, covered the inside like you would but you don't expect a car 2 laps down to basically go for it as much as possible into the next couple of corners.

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Last edited by F1_Ernie on Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:01 pm 
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yodasarmpit wrote:
Understanding more of the context of the crash, I feel Max is wholey to blame.

Ocon was behind Max for a couple of laps, catching at 3 seconds per lap, he gained permission from his team to unlap himself, with this message being relayed to Max.

During the overtake, Ocon got in front, and as the turn straightened Max edged about a wheel diameter in front. It was at this point Max closed the door with Ocon alongside. It was unecessary to be racing against a lapped car running 3 secs a lap faster. Ocon had no where to go, he was already on the kerb.


Where's 3 sec/lap coming from?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:31 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
I don't think anyone expects Ocon who is two laps down to go racing like his challenging for the race win into turn 2. If you really want to unlap yourself then use some common sense and do it down the straight with slipstream and DRS.

Is that not what Ocon did but Verstappen defended the inside line?


Yep and then thought he would keep going for it through turns 2 and 3 when he should have backed out then have another try in the DRS zone. Try and pass the leader if you really have to but keep it safe and clean.


So we absolutely sure that if a back marker tried to DRS Max on the straight that Max wouldn't risk another accident rather than let him past?


Max didnt risk anything and didnt want to lose any time to Hamilton. If Ocon was that much quicker he would have been able to get past pretty easy. Max did nothing wrong, covered the inside like you would but you don't expect a car 2 laps down to basically go for it as much as possible into the next couple of corners.

I think by choosing to race Ocon he actually risked quite a lot?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:33 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
yodasarmpit wrote:
Understanding more of the context of the crash, I feel Max is wholey to blame.

Ocon was behind Max for a couple of laps, catching at 3 seconds per lap, he gained permission from his team to unlap himself, with this message being relayed to Max.

During the overtake, Ocon got in front, and as the turn straightened Max edged about a wheel diameter in front. It was at this point Max closed the door with Ocon alongside. It was unecessary to be racing against a lapped car running 3 secs a lap faster. Ocon had no where to go, he was already on the kerb.


Where's 3 sec/lap coming from?


This Ocon was 3 seconds a lap faster meme also appears in a different thread too.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:47 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.


Add to this that Verstappen was informed by his team that Ocon would unlap himself. Completely stupid by Verstappen to make a duel out of it.

So the team did inform Verstappen of the situation, it just makes what Verstappen did seem even more unnecessary.


If he indeed knew Ocon was coming after being informed by his team he should be vilified even more. I understand Ocon should have backed out of it but he kept his maneuver clean imo. He was alongside max on the inside of turn 2 and with 2 wheels off the track trying to avoid contact yet he still got hit. Max just never leaves room while he is racing other cars. Just never ever. It’s time he finally lost a win because of that. It will probably happen again too.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:10 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Is that not what Ocon did but Verstappen defended the inside line?


Yep and then thought he would keep going for it through turns 2 and 3 when he should have backed out then have another try in the DRS zone. Try and pass the leader if you really have to but keep it safe and clean.


So we absolutely sure that if a back marker tried to DRS Max on the straight that Max wouldn't risk another accident rather than let him past?


Max didnt risk anything and didnt want to lose any time to Hamilton. If Ocon was that much quicker he would have been able to get past pretty easy. Max did nothing wrong, covered the inside like you would but you don't expect a car 2 laps down to basically go for it as much as possible into the next couple of corners.

I think by choosing to race Ocon he actually risked quite a lot?


He basically defended in the 1st corner, that was all his 'racing' Ocon. From then Ocon chose to battle it in the chicane side by side (Verstappen taking the normal line), a stupid and risky thing to do against the leader while he had nothing to gain (he was far from points).
Why Verstappen close the door into 1st corner? Because a backmarker in front can mean several seconds lost (Ocon wouldn't been able to keep that pace for long, eventually he would've been caught by Max; or he would just stay in front and leave Max in dirty air). We should all know this by now, we watch F1 by many years. In close racing a backmarker dispatched is important.
I agree Max could've been a little more cautious, but that falls a lot shorter to what Ocon chose to do.
Anyway, what's done is done, I saw Ocon finally apologized so that should ease the tension.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Bacus wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Yep and then thought he would keep going for it through turns 2 and 3 when he should have backed out then have another try in the DRS zone. Try and pass the leader if you really have to but keep it safe and clean.


So we absolutely sure that if a back marker tried to DRS Max on the straight that Max wouldn't risk another accident rather than let him past?


Max didnt risk anything and didnt want to lose any time to Hamilton. If Ocon was that much quicker he would have been able to get past pretty easy. Max did nothing wrong, covered the inside like you would but you don't expect a car 2 laps down to basically go for it as much as possible into the next couple of corners.

I think by choosing to race Ocon he actually risked quite a lot?


He basically defended in the 1st corner, that was all his 'racing' Ocon. From then Ocon chose to battle it in the chicane side by side (Verstappen taking the normal line), a stupid and risky thing to do against the leader while he had nothing to gain (he was far from points).
Why Verstappen close the door into 1st corner? Because a backmarker in front can mean several seconds lost (Ocon wouldn't been able to keep that pace for long, eventually he would've been caught by Max; or he would just stay in front and leave Max in dirty air). We should all know this by now, we watch F1 by many years. In close racing a backmarker dispatched is important.
I agree Max could've been a little more cautious, but that falls a lot shorter to what Ocon chose to do.
Anyway, what's done is done, I saw Ocon finally apologized so that should ease the tension.

Hamilton was toast, Verstappen could have let Ocon by without hardly losing any time, did Verstappen believe that repelling Ocon would cause Ocon to give up because surely constantly defending against Ocon would have allowed Hamilton to close the gap.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:29 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.


So with a far better engine, DRS and far fresher tires, he could barely overtake. Doesn't sound like someone who had a 3 sec/lap advantage to me. If he had that sort of advantage, he'd have pulled up alongside and overtook Verstappen well before the first corner.

Look how easily Verstappen overtook Hamilton, and he wasn't anywhere near 3sec/lap faster than Lewis.

Not he had lost 6 seconds, he would have lost a further 6 seconds staying behind.

Edit
Although backmarkers are shown blue flags so they don't interfere with the leaders race is it right that they should happily sit behind a slower car that affects their race just because it's a leader?


They should overtake, without screwing up the leaders' race. Is it really that hard for you to understand the difference? That move required Max to change his line to make the overtake work. That's not his job. Ocon should've just overtook him on the straight the next lap, and breezed by. He was a complete and utter knob today.

No need to get personal, I fully understand the situation thanks very much. Had Ocon been the one leaving no room at the edge of the track with Max with just one wheel barely on track I'd agree Ocon was a bit over zealous. As it was at the point of impact had Ocon been any further over then he would have been off the circuit, there was no more of the track to give Max while side by side.
Had Max taken a wider line he would have had the inside next anyway and lost what, a tenth of a second? Not the hardest decision for a top driver to make really is it?

Although I agree as the rules stand backmarkers need to allow themselves to be lapped I disagree that even as it stands they should compromise their race in the way that was expected of Ocon (assuming the Otmar view of the time he would have lost behind Max to be true).

Personally I'd prefer no blue flags and all drivers to be treated equally on track as the race for every position is just as important as the race for any other position, it can affect both drivers getting seats for following seasons and teams final placings in the championship and therefore prize money as well as potential for sponsorship money. The only issue I see with removing blue flags would be the potential for variation in how cars are let through by holding up some and not others.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:59 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Yeah 3s a lap is pure fantasy.

Lap chart comparison shows the truth before Ocon decided its a Red Bull so he can get involved with it instead of letting him go.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... ban%20Ocon


Yep, don't know where I read the 3 seconds - looking at the lap charts it looks like fantasy, my bad in taking something at face value without the research.

Still think Max turned in on Ocon, but less mitigation on Ocons side with the real lap time comparison.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:36 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.


So with a far better engine, DRS and far fresher tires, he could barely overtake. Doesn't sound like someone who had a 3 sec/lap advantage to me. If he had that sort of advantage, he'd have pulled up alongside and overtook Verstappen well before the first corner.

Look how easily Verstappen overtook Hamilton, and he wasn't anywhere near 3sec/lap faster than Lewis.

Not he had lost 6 seconds, he would have lost a further 6 seconds staying behind.

Edit
Although backmarkers are shown blue flags so they don't interfere with the leaders race is it right that they should happily sit behind a slower car that affects their race just because it's a leader?


They should overtake, without screwing up the leaders' race. Is it really that hard for you to understand the difference? That move required Max to change his line to make the overtake work. That's not his job. Ocon should've just overtook him on the straight the next lap, and breezed by. He was a complete and utter knob today.

No need to get personal, I fully understand the situation thanks very much. Had Ocon been the one leaving no room at the edge of the track with Max with just one wheel barely on track I'd agree Ocon was a bit over zealous. As it was at the point of impact had Ocon been any further over then he would have been off the circuit, there was no more of the track to give Max while side by side.
Had Max taken a wider line he would have had the inside next anyway and lost what, a tenth of a second? Not the hardest decision for a top driver to make really is it?

Although I agree as the rules stand backmarkers need to allow themselves to be lapped I disagree that even as it stands they should compromise their race in the way that was expected of Ocon (assuming the Otmar view of the time he would have lost behind Max to be true).

Personally I'd prefer no blue flags and all drivers to be treated equally on track as the race for every position is just as important as the race for any other position, it can affect both drivers getting seats for following seasons and teams final placings in the championship and therefore prize money as well as potential for sponsorship money. The only issue I see with removing blue flags would be the potential for variation in how cars are let through by holding up some and not others.

Ocon wasn't being lapped he was trying to unlap himself.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:03 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:

So with a far better engine, DRS and far fresher tires, he could barely overtake. Doesn't sound like someone who had a 3 sec/lap advantage to me. If he had that sort of advantage, he'd have pulled up alongside and overtook Verstappen well before the first corner.

Look how easily Verstappen overtook Hamilton, and he wasn't anywhere near 3sec/lap faster than Lewis.

Not he had lost 6 seconds, he would have lost a further 6 seconds staying behind.

Edit
Although backmarkers are shown blue flags so they don't interfere with the leaders race is it right that they should happily sit behind a slower car that affects their race just because it's a leader?


They should overtake, without screwing up the leaders' race. Is it really that hard for you to understand the difference? That move required Max to change his line to make the overtake work. That's not his job. Ocon should've just overtook him on the straight the next lap, and breezed by. He was a complete and utter knob today.

No need to get personal, I fully understand the situation thanks very much. Had Ocon been the one leaving no room at the edge of the track with Max with just one wheel barely on track I'd agree Ocon was a bit over zealous. As it was at the point of impact had Ocon been any further over then he would have been off the circuit, there was no more of the track to give Max while side by side.
Had Max taken a wider line he would have had the inside next anyway and lost what, a tenth of a second? Not the hardest decision for a top driver to make really is it?

Although I agree as the rules stand backmarkers need to allow themselves to be lapped I disagree that even as it stands they should compromise their race in the way that was expected of Ocon (assuming the Otmar view of the time he would have lost behind Max to be true).

Personally I'd prefer no blue flags and all drivers to be treated equally on track as the race for every position is just as important as the race for any other position, it can affect both drivers getting seats for following seasons and teams final placings in the championship and therefore prize money as well as potential for sponsorship money. The only issue I see with removing blue flags would be the potential for variation in how cars are let through by holding up some and not others.

Ocon wasn't being lapped he was trying to unlap himself.

I know that - if you read my other posts (mainly the first quote embedded in your post, which I have had to remove from this one as there were too many quotes) that's clear, perhaps didn't put it clearly enough for this forum.
I disagree that backmarkers should compromise their race being stuck behind a leader when they are faster at that stage of the race due to tyres etc that they should compromise their race in the way that seems to have been expected of Ocon. That covers that one hopefully, if not I give up


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:15 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
pokerman wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Not he had lost 6 seconds, he would have lost a further 6 seconds staying behind.

Edit
Although backmarkers are shown blue flags so they don't interfere with the leaders race is it right that they should happily sit behind a slower car that affects their race just because it's a leader?


They should overtake, without screwing up the leaders' race. Is it really that hard for you to understand the difference? That move required Max to change his line to make the overtake work. That's not his job. Ocon should've just overtook him on the straight the next lap, and breezed by. He was a complete and utter knob today.

No need to get personal, I fully understand the situation thanks very much. Had Ocon been the one leaving no room at the edge of the track with Max with just one wheel barely on track I'd agree Ocon was a bit over zealous. As it was at the point of impact had Ocon been any further over then he would have been off the circuit, there was no more of the track to give Max while side by side.
Had Max taken a wider line he would have had the inside next anyway and lost what, a tenth of a second? Not the hardest decision for a top driver to make really is it?

Although I agree as the rules stand backmarkers need to allow themselves to be lapped I disagree that even as it stands they should compromise their race in the way that was expected of Ocon (assuming the Otmar view of the time he would have lost behind Max to be true).

Personally I'd prefer no blue flags and all drivers to be treated equally on track as the race for every position is just as important as the race for any other position, it can affect both drivers getting seats for following seasons and teams final placings in the championship and therefore prize money as well as potential for sponsorship money. The only issue I see with removing blue flags would be the potential for variation in how cars are let through by holding up some and not others.

Ocon wasn't being lapped he was trying to unlap himself.

I know that - if you read my other posts (mainly the first quote embedded in your post, which I have had to remove from this one as there were too many quotes) that's clear, perhaps didn't put it clearly enough for this forum.
I disagree that backmarkers should compromise their race being stuck behind a leader when they are faster at that stage of the race due to tyres etc that they should compromise their race in the way that seems to have been expected of Ocon. That covers that one hopefully, if not I give up

Sorry I misread your post.

Backing up what you said back markers are allowed to unlap themselves if they are faster but if the leader decides that's not going to happen then the backmarker has to basically call it off because he can't be racing the leader in an aggressive way but the leader can be aggressive to the backmarker, it's all kind of confused and for that I blame the tyres.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:21 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
They do have a history (probably an unpleasant one) which was a big contributing factor I feel. Verstappen clashing with Ocon during their F3 days:


Hi UnlikeUday, my browser can't see tweets at work, is it possible to share it as an image?


Here's the moment of impact. The lower car is Ocon & the car that's hit into him making him spin is Max's!

Image
Source - www.imgur.com

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:59 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Things people seem to be misunderstanding on the Ocon/Verstappen incident are that:
-Ocon had not just been lapped, he had been help up behind Verstappen for 2 laps
-Ocon had double checked with the team about unlapping himself and is allowed to do so
-Force India say Ocon would have lost around 6 second (I think it was) which would effect his race
-Ocon was as far on the inside of the corner as he could be in turn two after being ahead through turn one, it wasn't a mad lunge up the inside
Image

My initial thought was racing incident and I still lean towards this.
As Hamilton pointed out he was allowed to unlap himself and Verstappen had the room on track to avoid contact easily. Pretty sure Hamilton, Raikkonen and Ricciardo would have got through there unscathed and nothing more would have been said on the incident.


So with a far better engine, DRS and far fresher tires, he could barely overtake. Doesn't sound like someone who had a 3 sec/lap advantage to me. If he had that sort of advantage, he'd have pulled up alongside and overtook Verstappen well before the first corner.

Look how easily Verstappen overtook Hamilton, and he wasn't anywhere near 3sec/lap faster than Lewis.

Not he had lost 6 seconds, he would have lost a further 6 seconds staying behind.

Edit
Although backmarkers are shown blue flags so they don't interfere with the leaders race is it right that they should happily sit behind a slower car that affects their race just because it's a leader?


They should overtake, without screwing up the leaders' race. Is it really that hard for you to understand the difference? That move required Max to change his line to make the overtake work. That's not his job. Ocon should've just overtook him on the straight the next lap, and breezed by. He was a complete and utter knob today.

No need to get personal, I fully understand the situation thanks very much. Had Ocon been the one leaving no room at the edge of the track with Max with just one wheel barely on track I'd agree Ocon was a bit over zealous. As it was at the point of impact had Ocon been any further over then he would have been off the circuit, there was no more of the track to give Max while side by side.
Had Max taken a wider line he would have had the inside next anyway and lost what, a tenth of a second? Not the hardest decision for a top driver to make really is it?

Although I agree as the rules stand backmarkers need to allow themselves to be lapped I disagree that even as it stands they should compromise their race in the way that was expected of Ocon (assuming the Otmar view of the time he would have lost behind Max to be true).

Personally I'd prefer no blue flags and all drivers to be treated equally on track as the race for every position is just as important as the race for any other position, it can affect both drivers getting seats for following seasons and teams final placings in the championship and therefore prize money as well as potential for sponsorship money. The only issue I see with removing blue flags would be the potential for variation in how cars are let through by holding up some and not others.


I don`t want to be salty, but in my view ocon was too aggressive only because he is 3rd Merc driver next year.
Hamilton bullshit talk after the race was typical, when he is handed the victory he is so wise, when things dont go his way he cries crocodile tears.
We need Max as a champion next year, a proper man, not princesses.
Funny and pathetic is Hamilton talking about Senna, how he follows his steps. Dude wake up, you are like the opposite person to Senna in all aspects. The only guy who reminds of Senna is Max, so really you gotta wake up.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:12 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
They do have a history (probably an unpleasant one) which was a big contributing factor I feel. Verstappen clashing with Ocon during their F3 days:


Hi UnlikeUday, my browser can't see tweets at work, is it possible to share it as an image?


Here's the moment of impact. The lower car is Ocon & the car that's hit into him making him spin is Max's!

Image
Source - http://www.imgur.com

Thank you, interesting angle!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:24 am 
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Posts: 6670
Filip wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:

So with a far better engine, DRS and far fresher tires, he could barely overtake. Doesn't sound like someone who had a 3 sec/lap advantage to me. If he had that sort of advantage, he'd have pulled up alongside and overtook Verstappen well before the first corner.

Look how easily Verstappen overtook Hamilton, and he wasn't anywhere near 3sec/lap faster than Lewis.

Not he had lost 6 seconds, he would have lost a further 6 seconds staying behind.

Edit
Although backmarkers are shown blue flags so they don't interfere with the leaders race is it right that they should happily sit behind a slower car that affects their race just because it's a leader?


They should overtake, without screwing up the leaders' race. Is it really that hard for you to understand the difference? That move required Max to change his line to make the overtake work. That's not his job. Ocon should've just overtook him on the straight the next lap, and breezed by. He was a complete and utter knob today.

No need to get personal, I fully understand the situation thanks very much. Had Ocon been the one leaving no room at the edge of the track with Max with just one wheel barely on track I'd agree Ocon was a bit over zealous. As it was at the point of impact had Ocon been any further over then he would have been off the circuit, there was no more of the track to give Max while side by side.
Had Max taken a wider line he would have had the inside next anyway and lost what, a tenth of a second? Not the hardest decision for a top driver to make really is it?

Although I agree as the rules stand backmarkers need to allow themselves to be lapped I disagree that even as it stands they should compromise their race in the way that was expected of Ocon (assuming the Otmar view of the time he would have lost behind Max to be true).

Personally I'd prefer no blue flags and all drivers to be treated equally on track as the race for every position is just as important as the race for any other position, it can affect both drivers getting seats for following seasons and teams final placings in the championship and therefore prize money as well as potential for sponsorship money. The only issue I see with removing blue flags would be the potential for variation in how cars are let through by holding up some and not others.


I don`t want to be salty, but in my view ocon was too aggressive only because he is 3rd Merc driver next year.
Hamilton bullshit talk after the race was typical, when he is handed the victory he is so wise, when things dont go his way he cries crocodile tears.
We need Max as a champion next year, a proper man, not princesses.
Funny and pathetic is Hamilton talking about Senna, how he follows his steps. Dude wake up, you are like the opposite person to Senna in all aspects. The only guy who reminds of Senna is Max, so really you gotta wake up.


You need Max as a champion, desperately as it seems, not "we". Please do not speak for others, at least not for me.

Max is a proper man? Are you Jos by any chance?

I'll tell you what was bullshit talk after the race, Max dismissing his actions because he is "passionate". The most typical bullshit excuse that they use to justify wrong actions. Vettel was passionate last year I guess. Same as Maldonado, Grosjean, Schumacher and Senna, all passionate, no one ever made a mistake...

He should look ways to improve his mental state rather than acting like a spoiled brat. At some point it will cost him more than 7 points.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:01 pm 
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If this had not been a back marker trying to overtake the race leader, but simply a fight for position, who would have got the penalty?

In my opinion it would have been Max.

Is there a written rule that switches the blame when the race leader is involved? I honestly don't know, that's why I'm asking


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:03 pm 
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I wonder why Verstappen went defensive on the start/finish straight. It means he accepts the other car is racing him and is quicker. The obscure "rule" that the driver who is ahead at the apex can run the attacker off the track at the exit - if that rule exists at all, it isn't documented as far as I'm aware - then comes into play. But Max doesn't do that, instead of running Ocon off the track, he stays well left and gives him room, with some room to spare. So there is no reason for Ocon to think that Max is then going to slam the door in his face on the next corner, as if unaware of the car alongside. Why first go defensive, then leave room, and then smash into Ocon? I can't see his reasoning.

I don't know when a driver is supposed to have unlapped himself. Is it when he has the leader behind him, or when he drawing ahead when alongside? If the latter, then Ocon unlapped himself momentarily and Verstappen re-attacked before any blue flags and the blue flag rule came into effect, which would give Ocon three corners to let Verstappen by. Even if Ocon had got blue flags after turn 1, that would still mean he was free to let Verstappen through after turn 4, wouldn't it?

And even if Ocon is considered as still lapped thoughout the incident, then I can only return to my first observation. Why did Max go defensive against a quicker car that was only unlapping itself? None of what he did seems to make sense.

And I have trouble understanding the stewards' rationale also. And not for the first time this year either.

Thoughts?

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