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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:28 pm 
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There have been numerous threads over the last few years complaining about the Pirelli tires and how they allow everyone to do a 1-stop strategy (thus making the races more predictable and boring strategically). Personally, I don't think it's really a tire problem. It's a combination of other factors that leads to this current reality of teams always doing 1-stoppers. Pirelli have, in fact, made the tires softer and softer but the teams respond by simply nursing them more and more. Take Singapore for example. During the first stint, they were literally driving 12 seconds off the pace in order to make those hyper soft tires last long enough to do a 1-stop.

The reason for this? Basically, the engineers almost always determine that a 1-stop strategy is the optimal approach. The combination of the massive amount of time lost in the pit lane due to the very slow speed limit and the difficulty in overtaking another car at most circuits makes it a no-brainer. The one-stopper maximizes track position while minimizing time spent at the pit limit. As long as those elements of the equation remain unchanged, the one-stop strategy will remain FAR more popular than any other approach. Simply making the tires softer will only make the drivers go even slower in order to make them last. In fact, it can exacerbate the problem because overtaking becomes even more difficult as the tires melt once a driver is close to another car.

I think they obviously need to continue to work on making overtaking more possible but they should also look at reducing the amount of time lost through pit stops. If you only lost 15 seconds instead of 22, for example, that would make a massive difference strategically.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:09 am 
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The pit stop time loss is interesting, particularly given the speed was reduced in 2013 follow Webber and the camera man. I know it won’t happen, but increase limit will encourage more pit stops.
One of the great things about Canada is the pit exit shortcuts turn 1-2, thus reducing the time loss for a pit stop.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:02 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
There have been numerous threads over the last few years complaining about the Pirelli tires and how they allow everyone to do a 1-stop strategy (thus making the races more predictable and boring strategically). Personally, I don't think it's really a tire problem. It's a combination of other factors that leads to this current reality of teams always doing 1-stoppers. Pirelli have, in fact, made the tires softer and softer but the teams respond by simply nursing them more and more. Take Singapore for example. During the first stint, they were literally driving 12 seconds off the pace in order to make those hyper soft tires last long enough to do a 1-stop.

The reason for this? Basically, the engineers almost always determine that a 1-stop strategy is the optimal approach. The combination of the massive amount of time lost in the pit lane due to the very slow speed limit and the difficulty in overtaking another car at most circuits makes it a no-brainer. The one-stopper maximizes track position while minimizing time spent at the pit limit. As long as those elements of the equation remain unchanged, the one-stop strategy will remain FAR more popular than any other approach. Simply making the tires softer will only make the drivers go even slower in order to make them last. In fact, it can exacerbate the problem because overtaking becomes even more difficult as the tires melt once a driver is close to another car.

I think they obviously need to continue to work on making overtaking more possible but they should also look at reducing the amount of time lost through pit stops. If you only lost 15 seconds instead of 22, for example, that would make a massive difference strategically.


Not sure I agree with you on the length of pit stops. Indycar has good passing, has only two dry tire option per race, and has 6 to 8second pitstops. That is time spent in the box. They also have only one tire changer per corner. A big improvement on safety. (They also have one pneumatic jack man versus F1 two jackmen plus a backup on both ends.) I am not an advocate of going back to refueling although Indycar does it without problems with gravity fed refuelers.

Seems to me that part of the problem is that F1 have built cars that can't stand still for more than a couple of seconds. Brakes get damaged & other parts of the car start to overheat.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:23 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
There have been numerous threads over the last few years complaining about the Pirelli tires and how they allow everyone to do a 1-stop strategy (thus making the races more predictable and boring strategically). Personally, I don't think it's really a tire problem. It's a combination of other factors that leads to this current reality of teams always doing 1-stoppers. Pirelli have, in fact, made the tires softer and softer but the teams respond by simply nursing them more and more. Take Singapore for example. During the first stint, they were literally driving 12 seconds off the pace in order to make those hyper soft tires last long enough to do a 1-stop.

The reason for this? Basically, the engineers almost always determine that a 1-stop strategy is the optimal approach. The combination of the massive amount of time lost in the pit lane due to the very slow speed limit and the difficulty in overtaking another car at most circuits makes it a no-brainer. The one-stopper maximizes track position while minimizing time spent at the pit limit. As long as those elements of the equation remain unchanged, the one-stop strategy will remain FAR more popular than any other approach. Simply making the tires softer will only make the drivers go even slower in order to make them last. In fact, it can exacerbate the problem because overtaking becomes even more difficult as the tires melt once a driver is close to another car.

I think they obviously need to continue to work on making overtaking more possible but they should also look at reducing the amount of time lost through pit stops. If you only lost 15 seconds instead of 22, for example, that would make a massive difference strategically.


Not sure I agree with you on the length of pit stops. Indycar has good passing, has only two dry tire option per race, and has 6 to 8second pitstops. That is time spent in the box. They also have only one tire changer per corner. A big improvement on safety. (They also have one pneumatic jack man versus F1 two jackmen plus a backup on both ends.) I am not an advocate of going back to refueling although Indycar does it without problems with gravity fed refuelers.

Seems to me that part of the problem is that F1 have built cars that can't stand still for more than a couple of seconds. Brakes get damaged & other parts of the car start to overheat.

I'm not talking about the stops themselves. It's the time trundling down the pit lane at 60 kph that makes doing multi-stop strategies so unattractive. When a pit-stop costs you more than 20 seconds, there is no amount of time on fresher tires that's going to make that up. Especially now when it relies on being able to overtake other cars.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:34 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
There have been numerous threads over the last few years complaining about the Pirelli tires and how they allow everyone to do a 1-stop strategy (thus making the races more predictable and boring strategically). Personally, I don't think it's really a tire problem. It's a combination of other factors that leads to this current reality of teams always doing 1-stoppers. Pirelli have, in fact, made the tires softer and softer but the teams respond by simply nursing them more and more. Take Singapore for example. During the first stint, they were literally driving 12 seconds off the pace in order to make those hyper soft tires last long enough to do a 1-stop.

The reason for this? Basically, the engineers almost always determine that a 1-stop strategy is the optimal approach. The combination of the massive amount of time lost in the pit lane due to the very slow speed limit and the difficulty in overtaking another car at most circuits makes it a no-brainer. The one-stopper maximizes track position while minimizing time spent at the pit limit. As long as those elements of the equation remain unchanged, the one-stop strategy will remain FAR more popular than any other approach. Simply making the tires softer will only make the drivers go even slower in order to make them last. In fact, it can exacerbate the problem because overtaking becomes even more difficult as the tires melt once a driver is close to another car.

I think they obviously need to continue to work on making overtaking more possible but they should also look at reducing the amount of time lost through pit stops. If you only lost 15 seconds instead of 22, for example, that would make a massive difference strategically.


Not sure I agree with you on the length of pit stops. Indycar has good passing, has only two dry tire option per race, and has 6 to 8second pitstops. That is time spent in the box. They also have only one tire changer per corner. A big improvement on safety. (They also have one pneumatic jack man versus F1 two jackmen plus a backup on both ends.) I am not an advocate of going back to refueling although Indycar does it without problems with gravity fed refuelers.

Seems to me that part of the problem is that F1 have built cars that can't stand still for more than a couple of seconds. Brakes get damaged & other parts of the car start to overheat.

I'm not talking about the stops themselves. It's the time trundling down the pit lane at 60 kph that makes doing multi-stop strategies so unattractive. When a pit-stop costs you more than 20 seconds, there is no amount of time on fresher tires that's going to make that up. Especially now when it relies on being able to overtake other cars.


Well then the problem is how to make the speed controlled sections of the pit lane shorter. I don't see much possibility there as you have to have enough space for 20 garages and pit stalls as well as the space needed by the FIA for regulating the race and pit lane.

Raising the speed on Pit lane seems to me to bring more problems when fans don't want to see fatalities on TV.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:55 am 
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I think everyone wants to ignore the elephant in the room. Just get Pirelli to make the tyres even less durable, and reintroduce refueling. If you know you can run your car light without the risk of running out of fuel, your team may factor in an additional stop.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:24 am 
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Maybe if there was a mandatory two pitstop rule, the drivers would be able to hammer the tyres properly?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:07 pm 
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da4an1qu1 wrote:
I think everyone wants to ignore the elephant in the room. Just get Pirelli to make the tyres even less durable, and reintroduce refueling. If you know you can run your car light without the risk of running out of fuel, your team may factor in an additional stop.

You mean cheese tyres again? No thank you


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:49 pm 
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Interim changes...
Increase the pitlane speed limit to 100kph (60kph now is ridiculous).
Require mandatory 2 tire changes.
Raise current PU component (ICE, etc) limits from 3 to 5.

For me the real elephant in the room is the inability to pass due to the aero washout following cars. When you can't pass, a fast stint easily becomes a tire management run... just drive fast enough not to lose track position, and gamble on the under/over cut. The race devolves into pit strategy, which is not the best racing.

Ultimately the real solution is to cut back on the wings. Maybe even a return to ground effects. That may allow closer following and opportunities to pass on merit (yes, dropkick the bandaid DRS system, too). Hopefully the 2019 wing regs will make a good start.

As it stands now, most modern racing series (F1 included) are based on promoting a show. Liberty Media (and Ecclestone before) wanted closer racing with tightly controlled chassis rules... when the cars look more or less the same, it (falsely) creates a more exciting show because identical cars truly can't pass each other. The tire situation is just one symptom of a system designed to keep the top cars crossing the checkers within mere seconds.

And the ICE limitation of 3 units per year results in conservation, rather than on-the-limit racing. Why blow up an engine to go fast when each unit has to last 7 races, or penalties result.

I remember a time when the best drivers sometimes won races by minutes, lapping backmarkers 2 or 3 times. Make the racing simpler and you can then complain the races are not competitive because the drivers leave each other behind. But you won't be able to say it's not racing.

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Last edited by MB-BOB on Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:07 pm 
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Ferrari and Alonso ONCE went against the current norm in regards to pit stops and just pushed to the absolute limit, pulling a huge gap that would allow him to pit and come out where he needed to in order to resume the lead once everyone completed their pit cycles. I remember Will Buxton and several other heralding Ferrari's brilliance in going against "conventional wisdom" and showing that you can be aggressive with the tires and push to the limits and still win races.

That however turned out to be a one-off and was never again revisited by anyone. Since that season however, the number of PU's allocated for the entirety of a season has been reduced drastically so conserving in that aspect might also play a role in teams not choosing to push the equipment more, but with the current units initially limited to just 11K RPM and then bumped up to 15K RPM from a reported possible 20K+ RPM. In 2021 the rev limit is going to be set at 18K RPM which means increased power & speed and HOPEFULLY… improved sound!

I for one would prefer to see everyone pushing to the absolute limit of the equipment and tires and stop as often or as little as necessary to facilitate all out pace.
But I feel the clay tires need to be abolished and F1 needs to return to quality rubber that allows drivers to push closer to the limit the cars can actually reach.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:00 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
but with the current units initially limited to just 11K RPM and then bumped up to 15K RPM from a reported possible 20K+ RPM. In 2021 the rev limit is going to be set at 18K RPM which means increased power & speed and HOPEFULLY… improved sound!

Only if they increase the allowed fuel flow rate to match. They aren't using the 15k they have now because it doesn't match up favorably with the 100 kg/hour flow limit.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:20 am 
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They're also increasing the Fuel Flow limit for 2021. At the moment I can't remember exactly how much, but I want to say off the top of my head the number I read was 30%.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:14 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
They're also increasing the Fuel Flow limit for 2021. At the moment I can't remember exactly how much, but I want to say off the top of my head the number I read was 30%.

:thumbup:

Good news, then!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:20 am 
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ALESI wrote:
Maybe if there was a mandatory two pitstop rule, the drivers would be able to hammer the tyres properly?

As far as easy fixes go, this isn't the worst I've heard. :thumbup:

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