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Appropriate penalty for Max's actions?
Poll ended at Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:31 pm
A good-for-the-show-character prize at the end of season 10%  10%  [ 6 ]
None 31%  31%  [ 19 ]
Some points in the license 20%  20%  [ 12 ]
One race ban 31%  31%  [ 19 ]
Two race ban 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Season ban 5%  5%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 61
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:06 pm 
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Senna got a two race ban (suspended) for his altercation with Irvine


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:54 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
f1madman wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Can you imagine him trying this crap on Webber or Senna or any other drivers? He'd get a kicking to next week...


Of the current crop, I could see Magnussen chinning him if he tried that :lol:

Lol I like magnussen, I'm not sure how hard he is though?


You don't tell Nico Hulkenburg to "suck my ......" without being able to back it up. At 0.40sec


Nah that's just more bratty behavior like Max's. Most of these kids are soft...


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:02 pm 
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Say in a different time line, Max was given a one race ban. I don't think it would make him learn that he needs to change and be more respectful in/out of the car. I think he would just see it as everyone is out to get him and think it was unfair. Nothing would change IMO.

I agree with those that have said Red Bull should have done more to keep Max out of trouble when he got out the car, it was pretty obvious what was going to happen.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:11 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
I agree with those that have said Red Bull should have done more to keep Max out of trouble when he got out the car, it was pretty obvious what was going to happen.
Am I wrong in thinking the teams aren't allowed in the area where the FIA collects the cars and the drivers? If so, Red Bull couldn't keep their driver under control, even if they wished to do so. Which I doubt.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:15 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
What did that contact cost Verstappen? Red Bull pay poorly on annual salary, the big money is in performance bonuses. IMO it cost Verstappen approximately a million dollars. But that win was washed away, and we have a very angry young man.

Where was his team to protect him from his own anger and stupidity? Anyone with half a brain could see that he was seething and going to do something stupid.

I do not condone any violence, but to see Verstappen stand up for what he thought were his rights is actually refreshing in this politically correct world. Then again, I watched George Follmer pop Jackie Oliver in the nose and knock him on his butt.

And understand this ... all drivers are selfish self-absorbed jerks. You must have that in your makeup to be able to force yourself to these heights in driving.


I guess the momentary step back in civility that Trump and others represent is reflected here somehow...

I can't imagine Stirling Moss, Jackie Stewart, JM Fangio, F Alonso, L Hamilton, and a few others, all of them pretty self-centered individuals, taking the same route of action Verstappen did. I don't need that to be engaged with racing.

What I would have needed to stay more engaged would be, for example, Mercedes to be less of a group of avenging pussies and offer Alonso a drive along Hamilton. Now, that would have been the definition of an era. Would have gotten audiences up by 200% and those seasons talked over for a few generations.

There would be other such actions... I guess I am not strategic enough, or virile enough... and FIA, Liberty, and teams prefer the right and honorable way of going about their business: predictable championships with some fistfights to spice up the show.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:32 pm 
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I found it a little funny - he's what, four feet tall?

Calm down junior..

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:59 pm 
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I posted the link for Ocon's onboard 2 laps leading to the clash with Verstappen. Posting the link here as well.

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/11/Ride_onboard_with_Ocon_for_the_laps_leading_up_to_Verstappen_clash.html

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:20 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
I posted the link for Ocon's onboard 2 laps leading to the clash with Verstappen. Posting the link here as well.

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/11/Ride_onboard_with_Ocon_for_the_laps_leading_up_to_Verstappen_clash.html

OK, from that footage you've got to wonder what the heck was Max thinking.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:56 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
I posted the link for Ocon's onboard 2 laps leading to the clash with Verstappen. Posting the link here as well.

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/11/Ride_onboard_with_Ocon_for_the_laps_leading_up_to_Verstappen_clash.html

:thumbup:

That provides some useful context to the whole incident. I see little wrong with what Ocon did there, he was faster and was entitled to unlap himself. Verstappen had no reason to fight him for track position.

Some people are saying Ocon was two laps down and there was no point. Well there was rain around and rain often brings the Safety Car with it. With lapped cars being allowed to overtake under the Safety Car these days that could have put him back into contention for points.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:36 am 
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j man wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
I posted the link for Ocon's onboard 2 laps leading to the clash with Verstappen. Posting the link here as well.

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/11/Ride_onboard_with_Ocon_for_the_laps_leading_up_to_Verstappen_clash.html

:thumbup:

That provides some useful context to the whole incident. I see little wrong with what Ocon did there, he was faster and was entitled to unlap himself. Verstappen had no reason to fight him for track position.

Some people are saying Ocon was two laps down and there was no point. Well there was rain around and rain often brings the Safety Car with it. With lapped cars being allowed to overtake under the Safety Car these days that could have put him back into contention for points.


Not only that but Verstappen appears to clearly move off the racing line leading into turn 1.

The only reason to do that would be either to move over to let Ocon past, in which case he should have backed off a bit until he was sure Ocon was clear, or he moved to protect his position in front of Ocon and make a deliberate attempt to forcefully hold Ocon up.

Looking at this footage i'm also inclined to think Ocon did very little wrong here.

Verstappen knew Ocon was on fresh tyres and would therefore be quicker.
Verstappen moved off the racing line so it's not unreasonable to think Ocon may have been under the impression Verstappen was letting him through
Verstappen moved across on Ocon on the 2nd apex of the esses

Verstappen's a good driver but God he's a moron.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:10 pm 
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Very insightful clip - it does give a new context for me.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:37 pm 
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Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.

Alonso and Stoff got penalty points for that, there doesn't seem to be much consistency about anything around Blue Flags.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Yellowbin74 wrote:
Very insightful clip - it does give a new context for me.


Over the Internet (websites/forums), now the blame for the collision is being touted towards Verstappen which I believe is fair.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Ironically the engine issue Lewis had probably stopped him getting past Ocon himself, which would have seen him be a buffer between them.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.

Alonso and Stoff got penalty points for that, there doesn't seem to be much consistency about anything around Blue Flags.

An entire lap? I thought it was far less than that from the onboard. Need to check it again


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:04 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
j man wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
I posted the link for Ocon's onboard 2 laps leading to the clash with Verstappen. Posting the link here as well.

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/11/Ride_onboard_with_Ocon_for_the_laps_leading_up_to_Verstappen_clash.html

:thumbup:

That provides some useful context to the whole incident. I see little wrong with what Ocon did there, he was faster and was entitled to unlap himself. Verstappen had no reason to fight him for track position.

Some people are saying Ocon was two laps down and there was no point. Well there was rain around and rain often brings the Safety Car with it. With lapped cars being allowed to overtake under the Safety Car these days that could have put him back into contention for points.


Not only that but Verstappen appears to clearly move off the racing line leading into turn 1.

The only reason to do that would be either to move over to let Ocon past, in which case he should have backed off a bit until he was sure Ocon was clear, or he moved to protect his position in front of Ocon and make a deliberate attempt to forcefully hold Ocon up.

Looking at this footage i'm also inclined to think Ocon did very little wrong here.

Verstappen knew Ocon was on fresh tyres and would therefore be quicker.
Verstappen moved off the racing line so it's not unreasonable to think Ocon may have been under the impression Verstappen was letting him through
Verstappen moved across on Ocon on the 2nd apex of the esses

Verstappen's a good driver but God he's a moron.


That is also important. He originally seems to acknowledge that Ocon is coming faster, then seems to make a move back onto turn 2...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.

Incorrect, he let him by for them as they approached the Nouvelle Chicane.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:22 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.

Incorrect, he let him by for them as they approached the Nouvelle Chicane.


Sorry for not being clearer but I'm talking about the above onboard video from Brazil. Ocon exits the pits and lets Max by at T4 then gets blue flags on the marker boards for the rest of the lap and his engineer tells him its for Lewis at T6 and to let him by on the straight. Then on the straight Ocon says he's not getting flagged anymore so doesn't bother even though DRS from Max is the only reason he's getting out of flag range.

Haven't seen Alonso's or Stoff's onboards so no idea how long they ignored it but Ocon should've let Lewis by before we got to S3 imo.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:35 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.

Incorrect, he let him by for them as they approached the Nouvelle Chicane.


Sorry for not being clearer but I'm talking about the above onboard video from Brazil. Ocon exits the pits and lets Max by at T4 then gets blue flags on the marker boards for the rest of the lap and his engineer tells him its for Lewis at T6 and to let him by on the straight. Then on the straight Ocon says he's not getting flagged anymore so doesn't bother even though DRS from Max is the only reason he's getting out of flag range.

Haven't seen Alonso's or Stoff's onboards so no idea how long they ignored it but Ocon should've let Lewis by before we got to S3 imo.

There were no blue flags in Monaco. So I was making a joke that he moved over for the blue flags in Brazil so quickly, he was 5 months early.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:17 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.

Incorrect, he let him by for them as they approached the Nouvelle Chicane.


Sorry for not being clearer but I'm talking about the above onboard video from Brazil. Ocon exits the pits and lets Max by at T4 then gets blue flags on the marker boards for the rest of the lap and his engineer tells him its for Lewis at T6 and to let him by on the straight. Then on the straight Ocon says he's not getting flagged anymore so doesn't bother even though DRS from Max is the only reason he's getting out of flag range.

Haven't seen Alonso's or Stoff's onboards so no idea how long they ignored it but Ocon should've let Lewis by before we got to S3 imo.

There were no blue flags in Monaco. So I was making a joke that he moved over for the blue flags in Brazil so quickly, he was 5 months early.


:lol:

Whoosh right over my head. :blush:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:13 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.

Alonso and Stoff got penalty points for that, there doesn't seem to be much consistency about anything around Blue Flags.

Well this has often happened. When haryanto came out of the pits in Spain 2016, he puulled away from the leaders slightly, but slowely. 2 or 3 laps later letting them by. He had blue flags for some time but he didn't get a penalty. With this Haryanto thing, it was obvious he was not slowing the leaders down, maybe explaining why he didn't get a penalty. I very much doubt Ocon will have effected Hamilton's race either. Verstappen was the one who messed everything up. Without that defence or different line, Ocon could well have got through without slowing Verstappen down at all.

Alonso has actually been punished twice for blue flags in the last 2 years. Vandoorne once. And I remember on Alonso's 2 occations, he was clearly not quick and was not pulling away. Was quite clearly just refusing to make room. That is quite different.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:23 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.

Alonso and Stoff got penalty points for that, there doesn't seem to be much consistency about anything around Blue Flags.

Well this has often happened. When haryanto came out of the pits in Spain 2016, he puulled away from the leaders slightly, but slowely. 2 or 3 laps later letting them by. He had blue flags for some time but he didn't get a penalty. With this Haryanto thing, it was obvious he was not slowing the leaders down, maybe explaining why he didn't get a penalty. I very much doubt Ocon will have effected Hamilton's race either. Verstappen was the one who messed everything up. Without that defence or different line, Ocon could well have got through without slowing Verstappen down at all.

Alonso has actually been punished twice for blue flags in the last 2 years. Vandoorne once. And I remember on Alonso's 2 occations, he was clearly not quick and was not pulling away. Was quite clearly just refusing to make room. That is quite different.


He was only 0.3 faster than Max despite having DRS. How does he pull a gap to a Red Bull without it? How long do you think the SS even give him that slim advantage that's reducing every lap? He'd have held him up within a few laps at least, its still a Red Bull vs a Force India.

Alonso's last one was in Japan iirc and he wasn't trying to pull away, he was busy fighting Massa for the last point on offer and the Mercedes couldn't keep up through S1 because of dirty air. I thought that one was pretty harsh tbh but I haven't seen Brazil's footage yet, where did you see it?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:15 pm 
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angrypirate wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
I posted the link for Ocon's onboard 2 laps leading to the clash with Verstappen. Posting the link here as well.

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2018/11/Ride_onboard_with_Ocon_for_the_laps_leading_up_to_Verstappen_clash.html

OK, from "that" footage you've got to wonder what the heck was Max thinking.


From ANY and EVERY Angle t was blatantly obvious Max was just doing what he ALWAYS does and chose to SLAM the door shut in intimidating fashion in an attempt to force the other guy to either veer off the track or brake hard to avoid contact, allowing Max to get ahead for good.

While he is a tremendously talented driver, he's a bit over-hyped because part of being a great driver is being able to put the squeeze on others without forcing them to take evasive action in order to keep from wrecking. The assessment by Damon hill of him being very Senna-esque in that regard is dead on balls accurate (Gotta love Marisa Tomei) in that in difficult situations, sometimes the best option in their minds is to use their car in way it should never be used.

From the moment they showed how Verstappen and Ocon came together it was easy to decipher who was at fault and it wasn't Ocon. You're allowed to unlap yourself and as a racing driver it is incumbent on you to do all you can to yield the best possible result at all times. And given Ocon's situation for 2019, he's doing everything he can to convince any teams contemplating signing him to put ink to paper. Many people fail to see the complete picture and it's not fair to Ocon. Had it been the other way around, Verstappen fans would be blaming Ocon for knowingly not leaving enough room.

In the incident after the race, had it been the other way around Max's fans would be calling for disqualification and worse.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:52 pm 
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F1 gets it's first bit of proper driver attitude since the 1970s so F1 punishes it!

Guess that's the world we live in.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:41 am 
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After seeing the onboard of Ocon I'm inclined to think he is a fair bit less of a prat for trying this, especially with potential rain and potential safety cars.

Tbh, Verstappen appears to move off line to let him past, then cuts across him. My opinions changed from Ocons on board to now thinking his penalty was maybe a little harsh, although I do believe that in this situation the onus should always be on the lapped car to get past safely and perhaps the move wasn't entirely risk free and I think there is an element of duty (and common sense) on Ocon to back out when Verstappen comes back at him - although I seriously question the wisdom of why Max comes back so hard at him, after initially moving off line, he has put a lot of faith in his entitlement as leader and the other drivers interpretation of the situation.

However, if that move was for position, then you'd have to say it was mostly Verstappens fault.

A very bizarre incident over all.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:33 am 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
After seeing the onboard of Ocon I'm inclined to think he is a fair bit less of a prat for trying this, especially with potential rain and potential safety cars.

Tbh, Verstappen appears to move off line to let him past, then cuts across him. My opinions changed from Ocons on board to now thinking his penalty was maybe a little harsh, although I do believe that in this situation the onus should always be on the lapped car to get past safely and perhaps the move wasn't entirely risk free and I think there is an element of duty (and common sense) on Ocon to back out when Verstappen comes back at him - although I seriously question the wisdom of why Max comes back so hard at him, after initially moving off line, he has put a lot of faith in his entitlement as leader and the other drivers interpretation of the situation.

However, if that move was for position, then you'd have to say it was mostly Verstappens fault.

A very bizarre incident over all.


If I was to put myself in Ocon's shoes seeing Verstappen move to the left approaching the esses i'd assume he's acknowledged i'm faster on fresher tyres & he's moved over to let me pass so as not to compromise his race & lead.

In that situation, the last thing i'd be expecting is for him to cut back on me at the apex of the 2nd corner.

For me, the telling part in this incident is Verstappen moving off line. There was absolutely no need for him to make that move other than to allow Ocon to pass, which one would consider smart racing taking into account the race situation, or, ne was make a defensive racing move to prevent Ocon from passing, which was a bone headed move that'd do nothing other than increase the risk of the outcome we got

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:59 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
F1 gets it's first bit of proper driver attitude since the 1970s so F1 punishes it!

Guess that's the world we live in.

90's I'd say when Senna chinned Eddie or when Schumacher tried to get DC.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:33 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
F1 gets it's first bit of proper driver attitude since the 1970s so F1 punishes it!

Guess that's the world we live in.

90's I'd say when Senna chinned Eddie or when Schumacher tried to get DC.


F1 has chosen to punish the inocent party, Ocon, waaaaaay more harshly than violent brat Max. Go figure the world we live in!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:42 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Image

This is a load of codswallop.

Even the wording of this looks to be designed to placate and, in a way, vindicate Verstappen and his actions.

It wasn't his intention to strike Ocon but he was "triggered" and that caused him to lose his temper?

Well if he went into the garage without the intent to strike Ocon, what the hell triggered him then to cause him to do it & does that go, even partly, any way to justifying what he did?

"While sympathetic to Verstappens passion"? What makes his passion so noteworthy above Ocons and why is that even relevant to the incident? What'd the guy do? Break down & cry in front of the stewards?

Is it appropriate? No.

He should have been penalised for the next race. Do you really think picking up rubbish on a roadside or cleaning dog crap at a shelter or any other community service for 2 days will make him see the error of his ways? No chance.

Verstappen only understands 1 language and that's the language of F1. Can we honestly say Dad, Marko & Horner will be saying anything to kerb his aggression after the handbags at 10 paces stoush with Ocon? Highly, highly unlikely.

He will only start to learn when his actions start to cost him & his team points & money & when his bosses & old man tell him to pull his head in.

Utter nonsense inst it.

It clearly started on the team radio after the race as he entered the pit lane.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:44 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:00 pm 
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He'll fit in well in F1 then.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:12 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.

Alonso and Stoff got penalty points for that, there doesn't seem to be much consistency about anything around Blue Flags.

Well this has often happened. When haryanto came out of the pits in Spain 2016, he puulled away from the leaders slightly, but slowely. 2 or 3 laps later letting them by. He had blue flags for some time but he didn't get a penalty. With this Haryanto thing, it was obvious he was not slowing the leaders down, maybe explaining why he didn't get a penalty. I very much doubt Ocon will have effected Hamilton's race either. Verstappen was the one who messed everything up. Without that defence or different line, Ocon could well have got through without slowing Verstappen down at all.

Alonso has actually been punished twice for blue flags in the last 2 years. Vandoorne once. And I remember on Alonso's 2 occations, he was clearly not quick and was not pulling away. Was quite clearly just refusing to make room. That is quite different.


He was only 0.3 faster than Max despite having DRS. How does he pull a gap to a Red Bull without it? How long do you think the SS even give him that slim advantage that's reducing every lap? He'd have held him up within a few laps at least, its still a Red Bull vs a Force India.

Alonso's last one was in Japan iirc and he wasn't trying to pull away, he was busy fighting Massa for the last point on offer and the Mercedes couldn't keep up through S1 because of dirty air. I thought that one was pretty harsh tbh but I haven't seen Brazil's footage yet, where did you see it?


Its not really 0.3 sec. You dont show your true pace while following another car. Max was holding him up as soon as he came out of the pits. He was much faster. How much faster i dont know because he never had clear air to show it. But he easily gapped hamilton and had a half shot at overtaking max on his outlap.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
After seeing the onboard of Ocon I'm inclined to think he is a fair bit less of a prat for trying this, especially with potential rain and potential safety cars.

Tbh, Verstappen appears to move off line to let him past, then cuts across him. My opinions changed from Ocons on board to now thinking his penalty was maybe a little harsh, although I do believe that in this situation the onus should always be on the lapped car to get past safely and perhaps the move wasn't entirely risk free and I think there is an element of duty (and common sense) on Ocon to back out when Verstappen comes back at him - although I seriously question the wisdom of why Max comes back so hard at him, after initially moving off line, he has put a lot of faith in his entitlement as leader and the other drivers interpretation of the situation.

However, if that move was for position, then you'd have to say it was mostly Verstappens fault.

A very bizarre incident over all.


If I was to put myself in Ocon's shoes seeing Verstappen move to the left approaching the esses i'd assume he's acknowledged i'm faster on fresher tyres & he's moved over to let me pass so as not to compromise his race & lead.

In that situation, the last thing i'd be expecting is for him to cut back on me at the apex of the 2nd corner.

For me, the telling part in this incident is Verstappen moving off line. There was absolutely no need for him to make that move other than to allow Ocon to pass, which one would consider smart racing taking into account the race situation, or, ne was make a defensive racing move to prevent Ocon from passing, which was a bone headed move that'd do nothing other than increase the risk of the outcome we got


I would have to agree. At first it looked like max was getting out of the way. This newly released footage clearly shows what happened; basically Max being Max.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:51 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.

Alonso and Stoff got penalty points for that, there doesn't seem to be much consistency about anything around Blue Flags.

Well this has often happened. When haryanto came out of the pits in Spain 2016, he puulled away from the leaders slightly, but slowely. 2 or 3 laps later letting them by. He had blue flags for some time but he didn't get a penalty. With this Haryanto thing, it was obvious he was not slowing the leaders down, maybe explaining why he didn't get a penalty. I very much doubt Ocon will have effected Hamilton's race either. Verstappen was the one who messed everything up. Without that defence or different line, Ocon could well have got through without slowing Verstappen down at all.

Alonso has actually been punished twice for blue flags in the last 2 years. Vandoorne once. And I remember on Alonso's 2 occations, he was clearly not quick and was not pulling away. Was quite clearly just refusing to make room. That is quite different.


He was only 0.3 faster than Max despite having DRS. How does he pull a gap to a Red Bull without it? How long do you think the SS even give him that slim advantage that's reducing every lap? He'd have held him up within a few laps at least, its still a Red Bull vs a Force India.

Alonso's last one was in Japan iirc and he wasn't trying to pull away, he was busy fighting Massa for the last point on offer and the Mercedes couldn't keep up through S1 because of dirty air. I thought that one was pretty harsh tbh but I haven't seen Brazil's footage yet, where did you see it?


Its not really 0.3 sec. You dont show your true pace while following another car. Max was holding him up as soon as he came out of the pits. He was much faster. How much faster i dont know because he never had clear air to show it. But he easily gapped hamilton and had a half shot at overtaking max on his outlap.


He's never much faster than a Red Bull, whatever the tyres, he's in a car over a second a lap slower. I've no idea how much he may have lost in dirty air but DRS and a big tow give you plenty back as well in S3. He also couldn't get within 8ths of Max's fastest time despite even newer tyres after his last stop after the SS only lasted 16 laps.

I just can't see how he drives away from the fastest guy and car on track if Max pushed. The tyre delta never looked big enough to me anyway.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:36 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Looks like Ocon also ignored Blue Flags for Hamilton for an entire lap.

Alonso and Stoff got penalty points for that, there doesn't seem to be much consistency about anything around Blue Flags.

Well this has often happened. When haryanto came out of the pits in Spain 2016, he puulled away from the leaders slightly, but slowely. 2 or 3 laps later letting them by. He had blue flags for some time but he didn't get a penalty. With this Haryanto thing, it was obvious he was not slowing the leaders down, maybe explaining why he didn't get a penalty. I very much doubt Ocon will have effected Hamilton's race either. Verstappen was the one who messed everything up. Without that defence or different line, Ocon could well have got through without slowing Verstappen down at all.

Alonso has actually been punished twice for blue flags in the last 2 years. Vandoorne once. And I remember on Alonso's 2 occations, he was clearly not quick and was not pulling away. Was quite clearly just refusing to make room. That is quite different.


He was only 0.3 faster than Max despite having DRS. How does he pull a gap to a Red Bull without it? How long do you think the SS even give him that slim advantage that's reducing every lap? He'd have held him up within a few laps at least, its still a Red Bull vs a Force India.

Alonso's last one was in Japan iirc and he wasn't trying to pull away, he was busy fighting Massa for the last point on offer and the Mercedes couldn't keep up through S1 because of dirty air. I thought that one was pretty harsh tbh but I haven't seen Brazil's footage yet, where did you see it?


Its not really 0.3 sec. You dont show your true pace while following another car. Max was holding him up as soon as he came out of the pits. He was much faster. How much faster i dont know because he never had clear air to show it. But he easily gapped hamilton and had a half shot at overtaking max on his outlap.


He's never much faster than a Red Bull, whatever the tyres, he's in a car over a second a lap slower. I've no idea how much he may have lost in dirty air but DRS and a big tow give you plenty back as well in S3. He also couldn't get within 8ths of Max's fastest time despite even newer tyres after his last stop after the SS only lasted 16 laps.

I just can't see how he drives away from the fastest guy and car on track if Max pushed. The tyre delta never looked big enough to me anyway.


He was much faster than a redbull with old tires and with obviously turned down engine settings. The thing is; why Ocon was pushing. He is trying to make up time while the tires are at their best. If he stays behind Max he is wasting the optimum performance of the tires, hence losing time to whoever he was racing. So of course it makes sense for him to try to unlap himself. If Max comes flying past 2-3 laps later because of blue flags and he has upped his pace, and Ocon's tires aren't nearly as good then so be it. But it's also entirely possible Max stays in cruise mode and never catches up.
But the gap in performance at that juncture wasn't really 0.3sec. Would be tough to stay in DRS range if that was the actual delta.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:04 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well this has often happened. When haryanto came out of the pits in Spain 2016, he puulled away from the leaders slightly, but slowely. 2 or 3 laps later letting them by. He had blue flags for some time but he didn't get a penalty. With this Haryanto thing, it was obvious he was not slowing the leaders down, maybe explaining why he didn't get a penalty. I very much doubt Ocon will have effected Hamilton's race either. Verstappen was the one who messed everything up. Without that defence or different line, Ocon could well have got through without slowing Verstappen down at all.

Alonso has actually been punished twice for blue flags in the last 2 years. Vandoorne once. And I remember on Alonso's 2 occations, he was clearly not quick and was not pulling away. Was quite clearly just refusing to make room. That is quite different.


He was only 0.3 faster than Max despite having DRS. How does he pull a gap to a Red Bull without it? How long do you think the SS even give him that slim advantage that's reducing every lap? He'd have held him up within a few laps at least, its still a Red Bull vs a Force India.

Alonso's last one was in Japan iirc and he wasn't trying to pull away, he was busy fighting Massa for the last point on offer and the Mercedes couldn't keep up through S1 because of dirty air. I thought that one was pretty harsh tbh but I haven't seen Brazil's footage yet, where did you see it?


Its not really 0.3 sec. You dont show your true pace while following another car. Max was holding him up as soon as he came out of the pits. He was much faster. How much faster i dont know because he never had clear air to show it. But he easily gapped hamilton and had a half shot at overtaking max on his outlap.


He's never much faster than a Red Bull, whatever the tyres, he's in a car over a second a lap slower. I've no idea how much he may have lost in dirty air but DRS and a big tow give you plenty back as well in S3. He also couldn't get within 8ths of Max's fastest time despite even newer tyres after his last stop after the SS only lasted 16 laps.

I just can't see how he drives away from the fastest guy and car on track if Max pushed. The tyre delta never looked big enough to me anyway.


He was much faster than a redbull with old tires and with obviously turned down engine settings. The thing is; why Ocon was pushing. He is trying to make up time while the tires are at their best. If he stays behind Max he is wasting the optimum performance of the tires, hence losing time to whoever he was racing. So of course it makes sense for him to try to unlap himself. If Max comes flying past 2-3 laps later because of blue flags and he has upped his pace, and Ocon's tires aren't nearly as good then so be it. But it's also entirely possible Max stays in cruise mode and never catches up.
But the gap in performance at that juncture wasn't really 0.3sec. Would be tough to stay in DRS range if that was the actual delta.


If he was that much faster then he doesn't have to treat T2 like its his one and only chance. Cruise up and use that Mercedes power to breeze past. If he can't then back off, I just don't like the idea of backmarkers fighting that hard against the leader, it opens it up to all sorts of abuse.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:45 pm 
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He did try just that but Verstappen chose to fight and then closed the door twice, and unfairly in turn 2.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:44 pm 
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He didn't come close to breezing past on the straight into T1 and was too impatient to try again in the next DRS zone down into T4. Those were the sensible options if he's much faster anyway.

I wouldn't expect a lapped car to compete for the apex in T2 either, I'd barely expect it when racing for position, Bottas backed out after getting passed by Dan, its asking for trouble and also because you're both risking your exit of T3 if you fight there even if you both avoid contact during T2, and you can end up bleeding time down the straight because of it.

As soon as Max defended T1 Ocon should've just focused on getting the best exit of T3 to just breeze past with DRS on the run to T4 if he had the pace. Clean and simple and not aggressive.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:41 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
F1 gets it's first bit of proper driver attitude since the 1970s so F1 punishes it!

Guess that's the world we live in.

So according to you a person can cut you off on the road and cause a wreck and should immediately come after you too?

Get real and get a clue. Had Max been completely innocent in the incident, I’d be ok with it to done degree, but since he’s the one who caused the contact he should’ve just shut his pie home and chalked it up to a lesson learned. Sadly he’s too arrogant pompous to stop and think for a moment and take stock of everything that led to the clash, and realized it was his own fault. Same goes for you as well, but sadly, you’ve seen the video evidence and have had time to process it all, yet you condone and welcome his misplaced anger and aggression.

I wonder… if his maniacal driving practices end in him losing his life and/or that of others, would you still feel the same way? They’d the gravity of these situations and at any given moment, just the right little factor can change everything in the worst of ways.

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HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:37 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
He didn't come close to breezing past on the straight into T1 and was too impatient to try again in the next DRS zone down into T4. Those were the sensible options if he's much faster anyway.

I wouldn't expect a lapped car to compete for the apex in T2 either, I'd barely expect it when racing for position, Bottas backed out after getting passed by Dan, its asking for trouble and also because you're both risking your exit of T3 if you fight there even if you both avoid contact during T2, and you can end up bleeding time down the straight because of it.

As soon as Max defended T1 Ocon should've just focused on getting the best exit of T3 to just breeze past with DRS on the run to T4 if he had the pace. Clean and simple and not aggressive.


Sorry I disagree. If you watch it again, you see that Ocon actually had his nose in front at turn one. Verstappen braked late and dove on the inside to inch out in front and then expected Ocon to get out of the way. He did the same when he was overtaking Vettel, he just does not have any respect for any car that he is fighting with, and that is why it is going to bite him every now and then. That is also the reason Hamilton gave him so much room at COTA; because he knows that is how Max drives. He never leaves space. IMO it was refreshing to see that someone didn't chicken out against him. Being a lap down or not does not matter. Once you are fighting on track, you must respect the rules of engagement, otherwise you have to expect things might go wrong.


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